Pokémon GO

Need to see how Heatran works out, and gonna need to swap around my counter teams again. Kyogre and Groudon are gonna be big now, and Machamp's decently widespread for randoms.

Curious how Heatran himself fares with Fire Spin and Fire Blast given his stats and all. No Overheat or anything.
 
If I recall correctly, Fire Blast makes it inferior for raiding. Current Fire attackers we have fares better on basis of movepool alone. This can of course change though. And it can be bulky option in raids when it's needed.
We don't need to talk about Heatran's Steel capability when Metagross exists.

Alas, I'm sick. I couldn't raid while I'm hoping to boost my Cresselia. I prefer her rather than this lava dome thing, but I haven't tested her PvP capability.
 
Totodile Community Day has been announced.

Europe, the Middle East, Africa, and India: January 12 10:00 A.M. to 1:00 P.M. UTC (GMT +0)
The Americas and Greenland: January 12 11:00 A.M. to 2:00 P.M. PDT (UTC -8)
The Asia-Pacific region: January 13 12:00 P.M. to 3:00 P.M. JST (GMT +9)

Also: 4x Incubator effectiveness during the event.
 
Totodile Community Day has been announced.

Europe, the Middle East, Africa, and India: January 12 10:00 A.M. to 1:00 P.M. UTC (GMT +0)
The Americas and Greenland: January 12 11:00 A.M. to 2:00 P.M. PDT (UTC -8)
The Asia-Pacific region: January 13 12:00 P.M. to 3:00 P.M. JST (GMT +9)

Also: 4x Incubator effectiveness during the event.
Funny, now we Asians are no longer betatesting the CD hours anymore?

Still... Feraligator isn't able to do much with lord Kyogre's existence, but it can be viable cheaper option to Blastoise in PvP, particularly Hyper ranks since Blastoise takes a lot of stardust to reach 2500 CP.
Well, good to know I don't need to focus too much on these things anymore.
 
Funny, now we Asians are no longer betatesting the CD hours anymore?

Still... Feraligator isn't able to do much with lord Kyogre's existence, but it can be viable cheaper option to Blastoise in PvP, particularly Hyper ranks since Blastoise takes a lot of stardust to reach 2500 CP.
Well, good to know I don't need to focus too much on these things anymore.
Crashes caused by huge traffic arent going to happen in Europe though
 
Funny, now we Asians are no longer betatesting the CD hours anymore?

Still... Feraligator isn't able to do much with lord Kyogre's existence, but it can be viable cheaper option to Blastoise in PvP, particularly Hyper ranks since Blastoise takes a lot of stardust to reach 2500 CP.
Well, good to know I don't need to focus too much on these things anymore.
Technically, Feraligatr with Hydro Cannon is set to have the second highest Water DPS in the game, surpassing Gyarados and Sharpedo, slightly below Kyogre. And a 2-bar Charge Move can also be said to be better than a 1-bar nuke. Kyogre is still on the Water throne, with a lot more bulk, but Feraligatr also had the advantage of not requiring Rare Candy.

I think it'll definitely be a worthwhile Community Day.
 
Technically, Feraligatr with Hydro Cannon is set to have the second highest Water DPS in the game, surpassing Gyarados and Sharpedo, slightly below Kyogre. And a 2-bar Charge Move can also be said to be better than a 1-bar nuke. Kyogre is still on the Water throne, with a lot more bulk, but Feraligatr also had the advantage of not requiring Rare Candy.

I think it'll definitely be a worthwhile Community Day.
Trust me, the difference between the GodFish and this is more than just slight
And Swampert is dethroning him from the second spot this summer
 
Trust me, the difference between the GodFish and this is more than just slight
And Swampert is dethroning him from the second spot this summer
True, Kyogre is still The Beast, no question.

But the problem with any legendary, is that not everyone has enough Rare Candy to power one up, as opposed to just using a common Pokemon that can still do the job. More casual players might need other decent options, which Feraligatr is about to become, which was my point.

Another example of that: Espeon and Alakazam are still considered useful Psychic attackers, even though Mewtwo is the Psychic God of Past and Future, just because they are "good enough" and easy to obtain candy for.

Dragonite vs Rayquaza, Rhyperior vs Groudon, Electivire vs Raikou, BB Charizard vs Moltres/Entei... the presence of a better legendary doesn't make other Pokemon completely irrelevant.

Even if Kyogre exists, Feraligatr is still set to be a good Water attacker.

And while also true that HC Swampert will surpass Feraligatr, it won't be here for something like another 6 months, which is a pretty long time in GO.
 
I don't think it been mentioned either, but more Sinnoh Pokemon were released with the Winter event:

Bronzor, Skorupi, Croagunk, Finneon, and Snover can spawn in the wild.

Chingling, Munchlax and Mantyke can be hatched from 7km eggs.

Shiny Azurill, Shiny Delibird and Shiny Santa-hat Pikachu are also available.
 

Champion Leon

Banned deucer.
True, Kyogre is still The Beast, no question.

But the problem with any legendary, is that not everyone has enough Rare Candy to power one up, as opposed to just using a common Pokemon that can still do the job. More casual players might need other decent options, which Feraligatr is about to become, which was my point.

Another example of that: Espeon and Alakazam are still considered useful Psychic attackers, even though Mewtwo is the Psychic God of Past and Future, just because they are "good enough" and easy to obtain candy for.

Dragonite vs Rayquaza, Rhyperior vs Groudon, Electivire vs Raikou, BB Charizard vs Moltres/Entei... the presence of a better legendary doesn't make other Pokemon completely irrelevant.

Even if Kyogre exists, Feraligatr is still set to be a good Water attacker.

And while also true that HC Swampert will surpass Feraligatr, it won't be here for something like another 6 months, which is a pretty long time in GO.
To be fair, Ash-Greninja will dethrone Swampert, and Swampert-Mega as Attack factors in both Attack and Special Attack stats and to a degree - Speed.

This is why Deoxys-Normal has more Attack in Pokemon Go than Mewtwo, by like 57 points! This is even while Mewtwo’s Special Attack > Deoxys-Normal.

Also, Ash-Greninja doesn’t take up a Mega Slot, and gets Dark resistances that even Primal-Kyogre lacks.

DPS = Ash-Greninja, TDO = Primal-Kyogre with Origin Pulse.

Lastly, we all know Ash-Greninja will have not 1, but 2 Community Day moves: Hydro Cannon for the Charge Move, and Water Shuriken for the Fast Move. Plus it’s second Charge Move in Dark Pulse with STAB gives it a huge advantage over Mewtwo-Mega-Y, and Gengar-Mega.

Ya Ash-Greninja is probably #1 in DPS, followed by Kyogre-Primal, and then Palkia for (non-Water DPS, just Top Water-Type Pokemon with DPS) Dragon Signature Move Spacial Rend. Swampert-Mega and Gyarados-Mega round out the top 5.
 
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To be fair, Ash-Greninja will dethrone Swampert, and Swampert-Mega as Attack factors in both Attack and Special Attack stats and to a degree - Speed.

This is why Deoxys-Normal has more Attack in Pokemon Go than Mewtwo, by like 57 points! This is even while Mewtwo’s Special Attack > Deoxys-Normal.

Also, Ash-Greninja doesn’t take up a Mega Slot, and gets Dark resistances that even Primal-Kyogre lacks.

DPS = Ash-Greninja, TDO = Primal-Kyogre with Origin Pulse.

Lastly, we all know Ash-Greninja will have not 1, but 2 Community Day moves: Hydro Cannon for the Charge Move, and Water Shuriken for the Fast Move. Plus it’s second Charge Move in Dark Pulse with STAB gives it a huge advantage over Mewtwo-Mega-Y, and Gengar-Mega.

Ya Ash-Greninja is probably #1 in DPS, followed by Kyogre-Primal, and then Palkia for (non-Water DPS, just Top Water-Type Pokemon with DPS) Dragon Signature Move Spacial Rend. Swampert-Mega and Gyarados-Mega round out the top 5.
Why would anybody need dark resist?
And we dont know anything about how, when and IF will Spacial Rend and Water Shuriken be implemented (not to mention WS isnt Gren's signature move anyways, they might not even put it in the game
 
Now, now, that's too far for a speculation. We are not even sure how or if they'd even implement Mega-evo and other Mega-like/upgrade formes. Considering what N'tic is capable of so far, I'd not speculate that far.

My probably safest bet for secondary Water if we are going to go that far, without seeing the base stats and Megas, would be Primarina... in +5 years. Assuming no one surpasses her by then by stats or moves.

They can also randomly add Muddy Water with different stats to Swampert though (although it's also unlikely; Sceptile's debut signature move Leaf Blade is already here and taken by many others).
 
To be fair, Ash-Greninja will dethrone Swampert, and Swampert-Mega as Attack factors in both Attack and Special Attack stats and to a degree - Speed.

This is why Deoxys-Normal has more Attack in Pokemon Go than Mewtwo, by like 57 points! This is even while Mewtwo’s Special Attack > Deoxys-Normal.

Also, Ash-Greninja doesn’t take up a Mega Slot, and gets Dark resistances that even Primal-Kyogre lacks.

DPS = Ash-Greninja, TDO = Primal-Kyogre with Origin Pulse.

Lastly, we all know Ash-Greninja will have not 1, but 2 Community Day moves: Hydro Cannon for the Charge Move, and Water Shuriken for the Fast Move. Plus it’s second Charge Move in Dark Pulse with STAB gives it a huge advantage over Mewtwo-Mega-Y, and Gengar-Mega.

Ya Ash-Greninja is probably #1 in DPS, followed by Kyogre-Primal, and then Palkia for (non-Water DPS, just Top Water-Type Pokemon with DPS) Dragon Signature Move Spacial Rend. Swampert-Mega and Gyarados-Mega round out the top 5.
The only thing that will beat Kyogre as a water attacker, with the mechanics we know, is Kyogre with a potentially better move (rumoured to be Origin Pulse).

If they do decide to go ahead with Megas and Primals, then Primal Kyogre, who's set to have a max CP value of 6276, will tower above everything else. Ash-Greninja won't even come close.

Besides, Ash-Greninja is Gen 7. That's saying people should wait several more years for something that "might" be decent, if Niantic implements it at all.

I agree with PsychicAcademic, that's waaay too much speculation.
 
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Champion Leon

Banned deucer.
Why would anybody need dark resist?
And we dont know anything about how, when and IF will Spacial Rend and Water Shuriken be implemented (not to mention WS isnt Gren's signature move anyways, they might not even put it in the game
Considering that Mewtwo, and other Psychics are using Ghost/Psychic/Dark moves, having a Dark resist is very useful. Plus many legendaries are part Psychic, so taking only 39% damage from Psychic attacks is pretty good, as well as 62.5% from Dark and Ghost types. Dark Pulse is 2 bars as a charge move, so I could see it getting hits in on Mewtwo, etc. before their Focus Blasts would hit.
It was, but they gave it to something else, so it was for a time. They might not, but with Castform and Deoxys forms implemented, they likely will. Castform's form change, like Greninja, is based on an ability afterall.
Now, now, that's too far for a speculation. We are not even sure how or if they'd even implement Mega-evo and other Mega-like/upgrade formes. Considering what N'tic is capable of so far, I'd not speculate that far.

My probably safest bet for secondary Water if we are going to go that far, without seeing the base stats and Megas, would be Primarina... in +5 years. Assuming no one surpasses her by then by stats or moves.

They can also randomly add Muddy Water with different stats to Swampert though (although it's also unlikely; Sceptile's debut signature move Leaf Blade is already here and taken by many others).
I think its 2 years for Greninja, and 3 years for Primarina, if its 1 generation per year as it has been (and since its been 2 years and 4 generations in, it might be faster).

No, when people mentioned the best Water type, they didn't say in the next few months, they meant overall. Swampert getting it is speculation too. We were just saying what might surpass Kyogre, since Swampert > Feraligatr, and people thought that would be the closest thing.
The only thing that will beat Kyogre as a water attacker, with the mechanics we know, is Kyogre with a potentially better move (rumoured to be Origin Pulse).

If they do decide to go ahead with Megas and Primals, then Primal Kyogre, who's set to have a max CP value of 6276, will tower above everything else. Ash-Greninja won't even come close.

Besides, Ash-Greninja is Gen 7. That's saying people should wait several more years for something that "might" be decent, if Niantic implements it at all.

I agree with PsychicAcademic, that's waaay too much speculation.
2 Years is a bit away, but not several years. We are Gen 4, and in 2 years is Gen 6.
I don't see a way of finding out Ash-Greninja's Attack, as this chart lists CP but not the Attack stats for Greninja-Ash *even though it lists others* (and was before the HP / Def shift). Attack shouldn't be impacted by the shift, but even frail Pokemon like Gengar gained like 25% more durability, so Ash-Greninja's CP would be higher as Gengar's was raised.

https://pokemongo.gamepress.gg/max-cp

Also, CP isn't everything, otherwise people wouldn't bother with things like Gengar for their teams, and only opt for 3.5K + CP Pokemon. Look at Venusaur, look at Roserade, look at Electivire. Gengar is used for its Attack, while CP measures all 3 stats, so it isn't always the best indicator.
 
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Considering that Mewtwo, and other Psychics are using Ghost/Psychic/Dark moves, having a Dark resist is very useful. Plus many legendaries are part Psychic, so taking only 39% damage from Psychic attacks is pretty good, as well as 62.5% from Dark and Ghost types. Dark Pulse is 2 bars as a charge move, so I could see it getting hits in on Mewtwo, etc. before their Focus Blasts would hit.
It was, but they gave it to something else, so it was for a time. They might not, but with Castform and Deoxys forms implemented, they likely will. Castform's form change, like Greninja, is based on an ability afterall.
I think its 2 years for Greninja, and 3 years for Primarina, if its 1 generation per year as it has been (and since its been 2 years and 4 generations in, it might be faster).

No, when people mentioned the best Water type, they didn't say in the next few months, they meant overall. Swampert getting it is speculation too. We were just saying what might surpass Kyogre, since Swampert > Feraligatr, and people thought that would be the closest thing.
2 Years is a bit away, but not several years. We are Gen 4, and in 2 years is Gen 6.
I don't see a way of finding out Ash-Greninja's Attack, as this chart lists CP but not the Attack stats for Greninja-Ash *even though it lists others* (and was before the HP / Def shift). Attack shouldn't be impacted by the shift, but even frail Pokemon like Gengar gained like 25% more durability, so Ash-Greninja's CP would be higher as Gengar's was raised.

https://pokemongo.gamepress.gg/max-cp

Also, CP isn't everything, otherwise people wouldn't bother with things like Gengar for their teams, and only opt for 3.5K + CP Pokemon. Look at Venusaur, look at Roserade, look at Electivire.
Why would you even want to analyze how a Water-type attacker does against a psychic type? Of course dark-types have an easier time against psychic, nobody is arguing against that. If you want to compare Dark attackers, that's a completely different conversation.

Yes, Ash-Greninja will be a fine addition to the roster. But the thing is, there's so much we don't know about the mechanics that would bring us Ash-Greninja (and other Megas) in GO. Shedinja has absolutely zero viability without its ability. Suppose it's the same for Greninja? What then?

But really, my main issue is that you're speculating about something that is arguably 3 years away (Ash Greninja is Gen 7, so counting 1 Gen every year, as they seem to be wanting to do... that's 2021)

So why? What's the point?
 
How are you guys able to determine future DPS and TDO data? Is there some calculator out there?

Also, here's a quick list of water-types that will probably be viable, * for community day moves or other exclusives, # for mega / ash

  • Feraligatr*
  • Swampert*#
  • Sharpedo#
  • Empoleon
  • Palkia*
  • Manaphy
  • Samurott*
  • Keldeo
  • Greninja*#
  • Barbaracle
  • Volcanion*
  • Primarina*
  • Wishiwashi
  • Golisopod
  • Tapu Fini
Obviously most of these will be outclassed by others over time, and I doubt anything will come close to Primal Kyogre, but in a vacuum they all seem to have potential. Aside from megas, I expect them to be released in this order give or take a few swapped spots.
 

Champion Leon

Banned deucer.
Why would you even want to analyze how a Water-type attacker does against a psychic type? Of course dark-types have an easier time against psychic, nobody is arguing against that. If you want to compare Dark attackers, that's a completely different conversation.

Yes, Ash-Greninja will be a fine addition to the roster. But the thing is, there's so much we don't know about the mechanics that would bring us Ash-Greninja (and other Megas) in GO. Shedinja has absolutely zero viability without its ability. Suppose it's the same for Greninja? What then?

But really, my main issue is that you're speculating about something that is arguably 3 years away (Ash Greninja is Gen 7, so counting 1 Gen every year, as they seem to be wanting to do... that's 2021)

So why? What's the point?
Meltan was Gen 8, but it was introduced now, perhaps if POGO dies down, the developers will release more gens in a faster pace. Alolans are Gen 7 as well...
Having a good typing is important because it allows you survive in more battles. I think if someone were to say, Kyogre > all, then typing would be useful in cases as the best water type.
 
JTD783 Gamepress' comprehensive spreadsheet is the best, you just have to modify it so it includes the stat changes and add moves to other forms manually

OM! They are Gen 7, not Gen 8, and they were only released to promote Lets Go
Bad comparison
And Dark Pulse doesnt mean too much - yes, it gives it extra coverage and a good anti-generalist (since most of the best generalists are weak to either of its STABs) it doesnt improve it against Mega Mewtwo X, which might even be the preferred one
BW Kyurem is one of the most powerful Pokémon possible and he doesnt care about Dark Pulse while it murders Ass-Greninja (sorry, I just hate that ugly fanservice so much) with Outrage
Kartana doesnt care either
 
Meltan was Gen 8, but it was introduced now, perhaps if POGO dies down, the developers will release more gens in a faster pace. Alolans are Gen 7 as well...
Having a good typing is important because it allows you survive in more battles. I think if someone were to say, Kyogre > all, then typing would be useful in cases as the best water type.
Most people place Meltan in Gen 7, as it simply was a crossover promo for the new Switch games.
Gen 8 will be the new standalone games teased for 2019.

As far as type advantages, for the future T5 Raids, there is exactly one instance of a time where you'd be using Kyogre, and where a Dark-type resistance would come in handy: Blacephalon, in Gen 7, given that Ultra Beasts take legendary status in Go. (There's also Victini, but it probably won't be a raid boss, à la Mew & Celebi)

And if a Raid bosses is not weak to water, you shouldn't even be using Kyogre anyway, so there's no point comparing.

Not counting PvP, which is a totally different creature, the secondary type of attackers in Pokemon Go is rarely taken into account. Gengar was a prime Mewtwo counter, even though it was weak to its moves. The most important thing is it's attacking type, and as such, it's rated against Pokemon of the same attacking type.
 

Champion Leon

Banned deucer.
Most people place Meltan in Gen 7, as it simply was a crossover promo for the new Switch games.
Gen 8 will be the new standalone games teased for 2019.

As far as type advantages, for the future T5 Raids, there is exactly one instance of a time where you'd be using Kyogre, and where a Dark-type resistance would come in handy: Blacephalon, in Gen 7, given that Ultra Beasts take legendary status in Go. (There's also Victini, but it probably won't be a raid boss, à la Mew & Celebi)

And if a Raid bosses is not weak to water, you shouldn't even be using Kyogre anyway, so there's no point comparing.

Not counting PvP, which is a totally different creature, the secondary type of attackers in Pokemon Go is rarely taken into account. Gengar was a prime Mewtwo counter, even though it was weak to its moves. The most important thing is it's attacking type, and as such, it's rated against Pokemon of the same attacking type.
The point is, however, that a Dark-type will last longer against Mewtwo, and thus be better, and since it has higher Speed and higher mixed Stats, it will likely be a higher Attack stat in Go.

But it isn't gen 7, since it can't be played in the Gen 7 mainline games, and also the point is that it is Gen 8 b/c its a preview of a future generation.

I wouldn't mention it if the Mainline Gen 7 games introduced it but not Pokemon Go. Because we are talking about Pokemon Go, and it was the first ever release of this Pokemon - period, I think its fair to mention it, especially if the whole point is that Niantic wont release any forms/Pokemon early and technically, whether Meltan is Gen 7 or 8, we got Alolans and Meltan 3-4 years early.

Further, the Alolans, based on their name alone, are Gen 7 because Gen 7 takes place in Alola. Pokemon Go had Gen 7 and 8 released before Gen 4.

JTD783 Gamepress' comprehensive spreadsheet is the best, you just have to modify it so it includes the stat changes and add moves to other forms manually

OM! They are Gen 7, not Gen 8, and they were only released to promote Lets Go
Bad comparison
And Dark Pulse doesnt mean too much - yes, it gives it extra coverage and a good anti-generalist (since most of the best generalists are weak to either of its STABs) it doesnt improve it against Mega Mewtwo X, which might even be the preferred one
BW Kyurem is one of the most powerful Pokémon possible and he doesnt care about Dark Pulse while it murders Ass-Greninja (sorry, I just hate that ugly fanservice so much) with Outrage
Kartana doesnt care either
Kyurem-B doesn't have anything super effective vs Greninja, and we don't know how strong Freeze Shock or Freeze Burn will be, but we do have Hydro Cannon, and its very strong.
 

earl

(EVIOLITE COMPATIBLE)
is a Community Contributor
I'm pretty sure Meltan is gen 8 due to being incompatible with the mainline Gen 7 games. I personally see it along the same lines as Magearna, which was also introduced really early but was a gen 7 mon regardless.
 
Sites like Serebii and Bulbapedia consider Lets Go Gen 7 games, and I would agree with them.

The point is, however, that a Dark-type will last longer against Mewtwo, and thus be better, and since it has higher Speed and higher mixed Stats, it will likely be a higher Attack stat in Go.

But it isn't gen 7, since it can't be played in the Gen 7 mainline games, and also the point is that it is Gen 8 b/c its a preview of a future generation.

I wouldn't mention it if the Mainline Gen 7 games introduced it but not Pokemon Go. Because we are talking about Pokemon Go, and it was the first ever release of this Pokemon - period, I think its fair to mention it, especially if the whole point is that Niantic wont release any forms/Pokemon early and technically, whether Meltan is Gen 7 or 8, we got Alolans and Meltan 3-4 years early.

Further, the Alolans, based on their name alone, are Gen 7 because Gen 7 takes place in Alola. Pokemon Go had Gen 7 and 8 released before Gen 4.

Kyurem-B doesn't have anything super effective vs Greninja, and we don't know how strong Freeze Shock or Freeze Burn will be, but we do have Hydro Cannon, and its very strong.
I think you're comparing two very different things. In PoGo, a "type attacker" is solely based on the type of the moves being used. For example, Deoxys sits at the top of the Electric-type attacker DPS list, because it has 2 Electric-type moves. Each type has it's own list. Comparing two is like comparing apples and oranges.

And we were specifically comparing Water-type attackers. If Greninja sports a Dark-type moveset, then it's not even a Water-type attacker, so you couldn't even compare it to Kyogre! You'd have to put it up against the likes of Tyranitar, the upcoming Darkrai, or the possible Mega Gyarados/Absol (if you want to speculate that far again).

Because in the end, comparing a Dark-type attacker with a Water-Type attacker is nonsensical, since those types don't interact. Seriously, who would use Kyogre against a Psychic type? Of course a Dark type is going to have an easier time! It doesn't mean Kyogre is less of a Water attacker, it just means that it's not a good Counter for that specific match up.

Another example of that: Groudon is the best Ground type attacker. If something is weak to Ground, Groudon is the best. Yes, Rhyperior can counter Flying-types with a Rock-type moveset, but then you'd be comparing Rock-type attackers, which Groudon is NOT.

And as far as Kyurem-B go, it's a Dragon-type, so Hydro Cannon is going to do squat.
 

Champion Leon

Banned deucer.
Sites like Serebii and Bulbapedia consider Lets Go Gen 7 games, and I would agree with them.


I think you're comparing two very different things. In PoGo, a "type attacker" is solely based on the type of the moves being used. For example, Deoxys sits at the top of the Electric-type attacker DPS list, because it has 2 Electric-type moves. Each type has it's own list. Comparing two is like comparing apples and oranges.

And we were specifically comparing Water-type attackers. If Greninja sports a Dark-type moveset, then it's not even a Water-type attacker, so you couldn't even compare it to Kyogre! You'd have to put it up against the likes of Tyranitar, the upcoming Darkrai, or the possible Mega Gyarados/Absol (if you want to speculate that far again).

Because in the end, comparing a Dark-type attacker with a Water-Type attacker is nonsensical, since those types don't interact. Seriously, who would use Kyogre against a Psychic type? Of course a Dark type is going to have an easier time! It doesn't mean Kyogre is less of a Water attacker, it just means that it's not a good Counter for that specific match up.

Another example of that: Groudon is the best Ground type attacker. If something is weak to Ground, Groudon is the best. Yes, Rhyperior can counter Flying-types with a Rock-type moveset, but then you'd be comparing Rock-type attackers, which Groudon is NOT.

And as far as Kyurem-B go, it's a Dragon-type, so Hydro Cannon is going to do squat.
When I discussed Dark Pulse, I said if it had a second Charge Move. If moves matter more than stats (like Meteor Mash Metagross proved), then having a STAB second Charge Move is just as important; especially in PVP where 2-3 bar Charge moves can use up an opponents’ Shields faster and go for the real KOs. If Kyogre is facing something that Thunder and Blizzard can hit super effectively like Flying, it will still take twice as long as using Origin Pulse (a 2 bar charge move). Hence having a good option for hitting before fainting matters in DPS as much as the coverage itself. So 2 two bar charge moves is better than Kyogre’s only 2 bar charge move, as Kyogre’s other moves are all 1 bar, even if Origin Pulse is 2.

The reason I brought up Greninja at all was because we know for sure Hydro Cannon is powerful, they may nerf Origin Pulse on release like they did with Burn Burn.

I wasn’t saying Dark vs Water, Dark Pulse is weaker than either water Charge Move.
The point is, when it comes down to “who is the best” Ash-Greninja will be at the top of the list of Water DPS.

If they also add: what about when you have counter coverage (like Mewtwo has Focus Blast for Tyranitar, and Ice Beam for Rayquaza) it becomes more useful, and makes it better overall not just as a Pokémon that attacks on its type, but bc it can function in multiple ways.

I would agree to only focus on 1 type a month ago, but since we now have 2 charge moves, it’s just as important to deduce what 2 Charge Move combination is most deadly.

Ice Beam > Blizzard and Thunder is a terrible move- even on Electric Types.
So really Kyogre relies on 1 good 2 bar STAB move and a last resort set of 1 bar charge moves.

Ash-Greninja doesn’t have that problem. STAB makes Dark Pulse usable.
 
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