Greninja-Ash @ Choice Specs
Ability: Battle Bond
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
- Hydro Pump
- Dark Pulse
- Water Shuriken
- Ice Beam
Ash-Greninja is one of the most effective teammates for Spikes Ferrothorn in my opinion, as Ferrothorn is able to wear down a number of common Ash-Greninja checks and Water resists for it to sweep. With Spikes on the field, Ash-Greninja becomes very difficult for bulky and offensive teams alike to deal with, as Pokemon such as Tapu Fini and Tapu Bulu tend to be chipped down fairly quickly and put into range of Ash-Greninja's powerful STAB attacks. Furthermore, if Ferrothorn opts to run Knock Off in the fourth slot, then it can remove items such as Tangrowth and Magearna's Assault Vest and Tapu Fini's Leftovers to make it easier for Ash-Greninja to break through them. Ash-Greninja also helps with Ferrothorn's 4x Fire weakness by threatening and forcing out common Fire-types such as Heatran and Alolan Marowak. Additionally, Ferrothorn's ability to lure in these Fire-types is very useful for Ash-Greninja itself; if, for example, you have a Ferrothorn on the field and your opponent has a Volcarona in the back as an obvious switch-in, doubling into Ash-Greninja can be quite effective to gain momentum for your team and potentially allow Ash-Greninja to pick up a KO and transform.
Tapu Fini has perfect type synergy with Ferrothorn due to resisting both of Ferrothorn's weaknesses while Ferrothorn resists Electric, Grass and is Immune to Poison for Tapu Fini. Ferrothorn also helps out Tapu Fini by giving it semi reliable recovery in Leech Seed while also chipping down the opponent.
Rain Sweepers are really good with Ferrothorn as Ferrothorn acts as a Grass Move Switch in. With Spikes that Ferrothorn provides, Rain Sweepers can pressure grass types wearing them down to the point where Rain Sweepers can sweep the opponent with their water moves. Spikes also help Rain Sweepers secure some kills as well.
Landorus-T can set up Stealth Rock, allowing Ferrothorn the freedom to run Spikes. Landorus and Ferrothorn together check a large amount of the metagame as well thanks to their solid type synergy. Ferrothorn can switch into Water-type attacks from the likes of Ash-Greninja, as well as Tapu Koko, which can revenge kill a weakened Landorus-T with HP Ice. (stolen from the dex)
Gravity helps a lot by removing Earthquake and Spikes immunities (a 100% accurate Power Whip is a nice bonus on something passive as Ferrothorn), while Z-Fly is a good lure for bulky Grass-type pokemon.
Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
- Stealth Rock
- Knock Off
Clefable can set up Stealth Rock, freeing Ferrothorn to run Spikes. It also helps to Knock Off Leftovers from Heatran as well as Defoggers such as Tapu Fini and Mew. Clefable also acts as a switch-in against Zygarde and Mega Medicham while Ferrothorn can set up Spikes freely on Toxapex and Magearna.
Mantine handles the 2 weaknesses of Ferrothorn-Fire and Fighting-and is a great switch-in to common Ferrothorn threats like Heatran, Victini, Volcarona, and Zard Y, which come in for free on Ferrothorn. Mantine walls these threats, several of which can threaten to set up and sweep otherwise (namely Z-Celebrate Victini and QD Volcarona), and eats even Z-moves too. In return, Ferrothorn handles threats like Tapu Koko and Tyranitar fairly well.
Mantine also can pack Defog, but that's a bit counter-synergistic with Ferrothorn sometimes. Still, perfectly viable.
Toxapex @ Black Sludge
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
- Toxic Spikes
Toxapex and Ferrothorn form a solid defensive since Toxapex can handle most Fighting and Fire types that threaten Ferrothorn, while Ferro can check Electric types for Pex and can also soft check Psychic types, though it has to be careful since they usually carry coverage for it. Toxapex also provides Toxic Spikes support, and the combination of Tspikes and Spikes can be extremely annoying to face because of the amount of chip damage taken when coming in.
OK so this week we're gonna try something new, given the fact that activity has picked up a bit. We are going to pick winners based purely on Pokemon/set choice, and then we are going to archive based on the rest of the post (independent of whether they win or not) and provide individual feedback on every submission with the hope that people read over them and take the feedback to heart. This should also act as an explanation for why certain posts were archived and others were not.
[10:12 PM] Leo: I think the post itself is pretty good, just avoid mentioning less relevant mons like jirachi fini etc
[10:12 PM] Leo: because you cover most of the basics
[10:15 PM] Martin: This post does a very good job of covering the basics of the way that the two Pokemon support each other.
[10:15 PM] Martin: It doesn't fall back too heavily on "pokemon x covers type y for pokemon z"
[10:16 PM] Martin: and to make up for the two not generally being defensive partners it explains the Pokemon's offensive capabilities to provide the same type of support
[10:17 PM] Martin: I can't think of anything that I'd say to improve on here.
[10:18 PM] Leo: same tbh, idt it cant be improved outside of minor nitpicks
[10:18 PM] Leo: partners good and posts good
[10:20 PM] Martin: This post is... very brief
[10:21 PM] Martin: It relies totally on the idea of "x resists y" without accounting for real examples of Pokemon that this is helpful with.
[10:21 PM] Martin: The Leech Seed thing at the end is nice, but overall you just need more detail/specificity.
[10:23 PM] Leo: Same, I think he should've focused on Pokemon that Fini helps with like Heatran and Zard X instead of listing type advantages
[10:23 PM] Leo: and Electric types Ferro checks like Koko
[10:24 PM] Leo: which wouldve helped him spot weaknesses of the core like Zapdos
[10:24 PM] Leo: another brief post
[10:25 PM] Leo: mentions spikes helping vic but doesnt list examples like spdef heatran
[10:25 PM] Leo: thats it
[10:26 PM] Martin: This post needs to actually list examples
[10:26 PM] Martin: Don't tell me "good type synergy" and leave it at that; explain why they have good type synergy
[10:27 PM] Martin: What do they check for each other? Paint it as if I am a 10 year old who hasn't learned the type chart; tell me outright "this Pokemon beats/takes advantage of pokemon X, Y and Z for the other Pokemon"
[10:27 PM] Martin: What does Vic set up on? What checks do Ferro's Spikes help to wear down?
[10:28 PM] Martin: What do the two pokemon defensively check for one another?
[10:28 PM] Martin: etc.
[10:28 PM] Martin: For starters
[10:28 PM] Martin: don't post a core
[10:28 PM] Martin: Post one Pokemon
[10:28 PM] Leo: ^
[10:28 PM] Leo: pretty much
[10:29 PM] Martin: Also be more specific
[10:29 PM] Martin: what Grass-types in particular do the Spikes help wear down?
[10:29 PM] Martin: this post is just
[10:29 PM] Martin: generally very lacking
[10:30 PM] Leo: Also saying Grass move switchin
[10:30 PM] Leo: Doesnt help at all
[10:30 PM] Leo: Consudering mons like mvenu and bulu beat ferro lol
[10:36 PM] Leo: I think the "Landorus and Ferrothorn together check a large amount of the meta" is an overstatemente because the Lando is offensive so it doesnt check near as much as a defensive variant does
[10:36 PM] Leo: he focuses more on the offensive capabilities of the core which is good
[10:37 PM] Leo: so yea I think just that
[10:38 PM] Martin: Yeah I echo
[10:38 PM] Martin: Leo's sentiment here
[10:39 PM] Martin: I think maybe you could list a few examples of Water-types that Ferro helps with
[10:39 PM] Martin: because obviously if it switches into a Keld Secret Sword or whatever it's in for a rough ride
[10:39 PM] Martin: or even a Gren HP Fire if ppl still run that
[10:40 PM] Martin: It is short and to the point
[10:41 PM] Martin: Does a good job of highlighting examples of Pokemon that they check for each other
[10:41 PM] Martin: I think some of the examples you have chosen are a bit iffy though
[10:42 PM] Martin: It sets up Spikes on Toxapex, but it needs to be a bit careful around it due to Scald
[10:42 PM] Martin: Magearna just kinda merks it if it is Focus Blast
[10:42 PM] Martin: etc.
[10:43 PM] Leo: yea nothing to add really, just watch out for your examples
[10:45 PM] Leo: First of all, Defog is one of the main reasons to use Mantine so despite it looking odd because of spikes it should still be used
[10:45 PM] Leo: I dont agree with the Fighting resist mention because most Fighting types dont struggle with Mantine
[10:45 PM] Leo: basically Medicham and Lopunny
[10:45 PM] Leo: thats all
[10:47 PM] Martin: Yeah I have nothing to add that Leo hasn't already said
[10:47 PM] Martin: Just use ur noggin a bit before brainlessly listing a type resistance.
[10:47 PM] Martin: I'm glad you made a point of mentioning setup fires too
[10:48 PM] Martin: esp. considering that Volca does a good job of taking advantage of mediocre prep for it atm.
[10:50 PM] Martin: i don't see a single pokemon other than ferro and pex mentioned
[10:50 PM] Martin: in that whole post
[10:51 PM] Martin: What Fire-types/Fighting-types does Pex check? What Elecs does Ferro check, and what Psys does it soft check?
[10:51 PM] Martin: Also no mention of how it soft checks both Lando and Chomp?
[10:51 PM] Martin: The post just needs to be more specific.
[10:53 PM] Leo: same, I think he shouldve listed examples as well as mons that can threaten the core despite being fighting types or fire types like vic or medi
[10:53 PM] Leo: The spikes+tspikes sentence is fine tho
Kyurem-Black @ Icium Z or Life Orb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe or 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
- Freeze Shock
- Fusion Bolt
- Ice Beam / Dragon Claw
- Earth Power / Hidden Power Fire / Roost / Substitute
Kyurem-Black is a great partner for Kartana, and vice-versa. SD+Defog Kartana is a great cleaner, since it's pretty fast and hits hard. However, threats like Zapdos, Mega-Venusaur, and Celesteela all are good checks/counters (depending on the exact set) that prevent Kartana from boosting up and sweeping.
Kyurem-Black, with either the standard Icium Z set, or an old school Life Orb set, blasts through all of the aforementioned Pokemon due to Mold Breaker+a SE move and a monstrous attack stat. It also can switch into all those threats easily (especially if Kyurem-B is packing Roost, on a Life Orb set normally), and fire off a powerful Subzero Slammer, or Roost/Sub up and punch big holes in the opposing team. Often times, this is all Kartana needs since many of its checks like Zapdos get obliterated after some chip damage. Basically, Kyurem-Black punches holes in common Kartana checks, letting Kartana just run through a team.
Kartana also helps out Kyurem-Black by removing Stealth Rock (which is very annoying, especially to LO Kyurem-B without Roost) and also switching into common-ish Kyurem-Black answers like Mega Scizor (which becomes SD fodder many times for Kartana), Tapu Fini, and Ferrothorn (post-Icium Z and assuming no HP Fire, which is a great option for Kyurem-B in many cases). Both of these mons can also put heavy pressure on Toxapex, which is great.
Tapu Fini resists Fire and Fighting moves to which Kartana is weak; offensively speaking, it provides Defog (thus freeing a moveslot on the Grass type) and Nature's Madness, which allows Kartana to net KOs with ease even without SD up or saving a Z-move for later.
Kartana can easily sweep if its checks are at 50% HP for example: Zapdos, Mega-Venusaur, and Celesteela which are lured in by Tapu Fini itself (and are the same checks/counters of Kartana) with Nature's Madness and none of them appreciates the threat of a SpA drop from Moonblast.
Magearna @ Assault Vest
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 SpD
- Fleur Cannon
- Iron Head
- Hidden Power Fire
- Volt Switch
Kartana will fall to any faster Special Attacker such as Tapu Koko and Ash-Greninja. Fortunately, AV Magearna provides you with a switch-in to them while also reducing the danger of Greninja changing forms. Volt Switch is pretty nice to help get Kartana in to start wrecking stuff. Kartana provides Defog to increase Magearna's longevity while also being able to switch in against Phy Def Landorus-T (watch out for SSS!) and Zygarde.
Charizard-Mega-X @ Charizardite X
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 16 HP / 252 Atk / 56 SpD / 184 Spe
- Flare Blitz
- Dragon Claw
- Swords Dance / Earthquake / Dragon Dance
Using kartana, I found that +2 all out pummeling is strong enough to break just about any wall, but not Zapdos, so I ended up partnering Zardx with it. Zardx not only hard counters most zapdos sets, but also has great type synergy with kartana. The things that force kartana out (zapdos, venusaur, celesteela), charizard can come in and set up on. Kartana can also support zard by providing defog support and being able to remove other checks (tapu fini, toxapex, faster revenge killers). I run 56 evs on charizard so that 4 spa mega venu never 2hkos with sludge bomb from full, unless they poison. 184+ spe hits 310, to creep jolly landot. I like this set which is specialized to beat zapdos and venusaur for kartana, but both 3 atk roost and dd are just as viable.
Ferrothorn @ Leftovers / Occa Berry
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 88 Def / 168 SpD
IVs: 0 Spe P
- Leech Seed
- Power Whip
- Gyro Ball
Ferrothorn functions as an exceptional partner for Kartana. It offers itself as a much sturdier Steel-types than Kartana could ever be, and considering how imperative the bulky Steel-type role is, Ferrothorn delivers. It functions as a good barrier against Battle Bond Greninja, Tapu Koko, Tapu Lele, etc. all of which are able to revenge kill Kartana, with the exception of other Lele variants barring Scarf. There's obviously more than those three, but the list would grow quite expansive. It also sets up Spikes, which is makes Kartana an absolutely devastating monster to face off against; just a small bit of auxiliary damage makes all the difference in stomaching it.
This went down well last week so we're doing it again!
[11:31 PM] Martin: idk what's up with all those slashes
[11:31 PM] Martin: also LO Freeze Shock
[11:32 PM] Martin: that's something special
[11:32 PM] Martin: ...
[11:33 PM] Martin: the description is solid though
[11:33 PM] Martin: just really held back by
[11:33 PM] Martin: the actual set
[11:33 PM] Leo: yea, LO is better now so he couldve just left anything icium related out
[11:33 PM] Leo: unslash unmoves like dclaw
[11:33 PM] Leo: sub
[11:34 PM] Leo: rest is good
[11:35 PM] Leo: I kinda like the idea of nm luring zap venu etc but
[11:35 PM] Leo: fini itself isnt in a good spot atm
[11:36 PM] Leo: and the whole typing synergy doesnt work in practice
[11:36 PM] Leo: Because fighting types beat fini bar like keld
[11:36 PM] Leo: and most fire types lose to kart regardless
[11:37 PM] Martin: yeah pretty much
[11:38 PM] Martin: echoing what leo said
[11:38 PM] Martin: a lot of stuff here which is there on paper but not in practice
[11:38 PM] Martin: and it's a shaky lure for zap and venu imo if only bcuz it just gives them one recovery's worth of damage
[11:39 PM] Martin: rather than outright killing them
[11:39 PM] Martin: esp. when u consider that there is very little reason for them to not try and heal up on fini
[11:29 PM] Leo: I dont like the last line
[11:29 PM] Leo: Kart doesnt switch into lando
[11:29 PM] Leo: like never
[11:29 PM] Martin: yea
[11:29 PM] Martin: agree
[11:30 PM] Martin: the defog point is valid but he gave
[11:30 PM] Martin: totally the wrong reason
[11:30 PM] Leo: yea otherwise would be archive-worthy
[11:30 PM] Leo: alas
[11:43 PM] Martin: This set is... interesting
[11:43 PM] Martin: I'm not really sure I like the idea of a Zard X which doesn't carry EQ in this meta
[11:43 PM] Martin: or one which doesn't speed tie opposing zard x
[11:44 PM] Martin: the description is decent but yea
[11:44 PM] Martin: few knitpicks there but for the most part solid
[11:45 PM] Martin: just focus on choice of set+its utility outside of the context of the project a little more.
[12:00 AM] Leo: Pretty much what u said+pairing 2 balance breakers walled by diff mons together doesnt make too much sense
[12:00 AM] Leo: 3 atks roost wouldve been better here
[12:17 AM] Martin: I agree with most of this but I'm really not sure what purpose running Occa Ferro alongside Kart achieves aside from maybe beating, like, HP Fire Gren, but noone runs HP Fire Gren anymore so ?
[12:18 AM] Martin: this is solid overall aside from that
[12:20 AM] Leo: echoing this; I've got nothing to add
Camerupt-Mega @ Cameruptite
Ability: Magma Armor
EVs: 128 HP / 252 SpA / 128 Spe
- Fire Blast
- Earth Power
- Rock Slide
- Stealth Rock / Substitute
Celesteela is a solid mon in the metagame, and this set utilizes its good defensive typing to be a good mixed wall, handling threats like Tapu Lele and Mega Pinsir quite well. However, it's offensive presence is a bit lackluster (sans Leech Seed and Protect shenanigans), leaving it vulnerable to common offensive threats like Tapu Koko and Heatran, and dangerous set-up sweepers like Volcarona (which is on the rise once more). Celesteela is also unable to do much to defensive mons like Toxapex, which can fish for burns and set up hazards for free, and Mega Venusaur and Mega Sableye, which are immune to Leech Seed (while Seeding Celesteela itself or Knocking Off Leftovers, which also sucks).
Mega Camerupt is a surprisingly good partner for Celesteela, as it gives a vital Electric immunity, Fire resist, and strong wallbreaking power. Celesteela absorbs random Scalds and is immune to Ground-type moves, while also setting up Leech Seed for Mega Camerupt to heal up off of. Mega Camerupt is pitifully slow and will likely take a hit as it switches in, so Leech Seed recovery is very much appreciated.
This Mega Camerupt set has enough speed to outspeed Toxapex and OHKO with Earth Power, which is pretty much the only benchmark you need to really hit. Fire Blast and Earth Power obliterate Mega Venusaur (even defensive sets), Heatran, Toxapex, Magnezone, Zapdos, Tapu Koko, and (ironically), other Celesteela, all of which are viable switch-ins to the given Celesteela set. Rock Slide kills Volcarona, and you live any +1 move as well (even the +1 Inferno Overdrive), making Mega Camerupt a hard counter to a rising threat to Celesteela. Rock Slide also hits Mega Charizard Y, which is much less common than it used to be. The last slot is mostly filler-Mega Camerupt forces out or beats common Defoggers like Zapdos, Mew, and Mega Scizor so you can likely set up Rocks several times if needed. Substitute is great for easing predictions and Mega Camerupt hits hard enough that a successful sub usually means at least one KO. Yawn and Nature Power are viable options too.
Tyranitar @ Choice Band
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 80 HP / 252 Atk / 176 Spe
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake / Fire Punch
Standard Celesteela has major issues with any sort of defensive oriented build, whether that be a bulkier balance or stall. Celesteela compliments BandTar by providing a necessary ground immunity especially against the likes of Landorus-T while BandTar is able to put pressure on many of Celesteelas common-checks in combination with its coverage and pursuit utility such as Zapdos, Mantine, Alolan Marowak, and so forth. There's a lot of other checks that Tyranitar can pressure with this set such as M-Venusaur, Charizard-X, M-Sableye(the entire stall archetype more or less) and Volcarona, but these are more situational based on circumstance as opposed to certainty.
Venusaur is probably one of Celesteela's best team mate, being able to lure troublesome Pokemon such as Heatran, Magearna, and Mega Mawile, it can come in on Fire-type attacks due to THICC fat and also into Electric-type attacks due to its natural resistance to it. In return Celesteela can come in on Pokemon such as Tapu Lele, Mega Alakazam, Ferrothorn, and Lati@s, it also provides Venusaur with more recovery in Leech Seed which is always useful because of Synthesis' low PP. This is probably one of the best cores to fit on Balance/Bulky Offense due to the amount of resistances and utility it offers.
Toxapex @ Black Sludge
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
- Haze / Toxic
- Toxic Spikes
CelePex is an extremely common defensive core that has been seeing a lot of usage in official tours for some time thanks to the pair's ability to blanket check much of the metagame with their outstanding defensive synergy. Toxapex is able to take on Pokemon such as Volcarona (if Haze), certain Heatran sets, and Mega Charizard Y (although it's far less common nowadays), which can easily switch in on and easily take advantage of defensive Celesteela otherwise. Toxapex also provides a far more solid check to powerful offensive Water-types such as Ash-Greninja and Keldeo, relieving the pressure to check these Pokemon from Celesteela. Furthermore, Celesteela benefits a lot from the Toxic Spikes support that Toxapex provides, as it allows it to chip down Pokemon that threaten it such as Zygarde more easily alongside Leech Seed + Protect. In return, Celesteela provides a decently resilient answer to common Pokemon that are able to threaten Toxapex such as non-Gravity / Smack Down Landorus-T, Garchomp, Tapu Lele, and Latios. So yeah, in general this is just a fairly solid defensive core that fits on a number of bulky / balanced teams.
Heatran @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 248 HP / 220 SpD / 40 Spe
- Lava Plume
- Stealth Rock
This is my first time posting, so I'm not sure how it's gonna go.
I'm not really an expert on the current meta, but heatran seems to be quite good at the moment and it pairs wel with celesteela. Heatran covers the fire weakness of celesteela, while celesteela is a nice ground immunity for heatran. Also heatran is neutral to electric and celesteela is neutral to fighting, so they sort of cover each others weaknesses.
Since heatran doesn't have recovery moves, it much appreciates the extra leech seed recovery.
Toxic can wear down the likes of zapdos and taunt stops Pokemon like chansey from healing.
While I don't think heatran is the best partner for celesteela, I certainly don't think it's a terrible one. (Comments on why I'm wrong are much appreciated, since I'm gonna try to post more and I wanna learn as much as possible about the meta)
Zygarde is good with celesteela because he will be able to check the majority check and counter of celesteela such as zapdos heatran magnezone or other electric type. Celesteela can check Bulu and Fairy type, Ferro scizor and others Check and counter of Zygarde.
Charizard X has good defensive sinergy with Celesteela, covering its Electric and Fire weaknesses, which is useful for handling Pokemon such as Tapu Koko, Volcarona, Zapdos and other Pokemon that can threaten Celesteela. On the other hand, Celesteela can check Pokemon like non-Gravity/Smack Down/Rockium Lando-T, Latios, and Garchomp for ZardX.