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Pokémon Movepool Oddities & Explanations
- Thread starter Kurona
- Start date
Eevee definitely feels like they need to totally rethink it's learnset. Which is something you'd THINK Dexit and the subsequent moveset resets would let them do, but apparently not.
Currently, Eevee learns Dig/Mud Slap, Shadow Ball, Stored Power, Double Kick, Tailblaze, Alluring Voice, and Bite(level up). Ground, Ghost, Psychic, Fighting, Grass, Fairy, and Dark. In previous gens, it also got Iron Tail. That makes sense from the perspective of it as a small Normal-type mammal, I'd expect a learnset like that on something like Furret, but it says nothing about Eevee's evolution-focused gimmick. Exactly half the non-normal moves that Eevee learns are of types that it DOESN'T evolve into, and it only gets moves for half it's evolutions.
Eevee IMO should either:
Get exclusively normal-type moves. This means that when it evolves, it's evolution is the purest expression of that type's ability to interact with the world. If we're doing that, we should PROBABLY rework the existing evos design/stats so that they fit with how that type is supposed to function(bulky powder Leafeon, fast offensive Flareon).
Get decent moves of all types it does not evolve into. This lets Eeveeloutions NOT use each other's moves(which I would preserve in the evo's movesets, goodbye Ice Beam Vaporeon or Mystical Fire Sylveon), but would allow some moveset diversity despite that and emphasize the STAB as the thing that differentiates the Eeveeloutions.
Get coverage with 60-85 power for EVERY evolution type. This means that the best moves are still limited to STAB, but Eevee gets to show signs of diversity early on before you evolve it, and the Eeveeloutions can show their relationship to each other.
Any of those options would make Eevee's gimmick a bit more obvious at all stages of it's life, which I think should be the goal. As-is, it's very generic normal early on, which is meh, and then the evolution varies wildly in how much Eevee's preexisting moveset helps.
Also, fun fact: Espeon and Umbreon used to not learn Charm, only Baby Doll Eyes. Charm was added to their lvl 1 moveset in Gen 8, because otherwise due to how the Sylveon priority worked with the new friendship mechanics, it would be impossible to have Charm on an Espeon/Umbreon.
Currently, Eevee learns Dig/Mud Slap, Shadow Ball, Stored Power, Double Kick, Tailblaze, Alluring Voice, and Bite(level up). Ground, Ghost, Psychic, Fighting, Grass, Fairy, and Dark. In previous gens, it also got Iron Tail. That makes sense from the perspective of it as a small Normal-type mammal, I'd expect a learnset like that on something like Furret, but it says nothing about Eevee's evolution-focused gimmick. Exactly half the non-normal moves that Eevee learns are of types that it DOESN'T evolve into, and it only gets moves for half it's evolutions.
Eevee IMO should either:
Get exclusively normal-type moves. This means that when it evolves, it's evolution is the purest expression of that type's ability to interact with the world. If we're doing that, we should PROBABLY rework the existing evos design/stats so that they fit with how that type is supposed to function(bulky powder Leafeon, fast offensive Flareon).
Get decent moves of all types it does not evolve into. This lets Eeveeloutions NOT use each other's moves(which I would preserve in the evo's movesets, goodbye Ice Beam Vaporeon or Mystical Fire Sylveon), but would allow some moveset diversity despite that and emphasize the STAB as the thing that differentiates the Eeveeloutions.
Get coverage with 60-85 power for EVERY evolution type. This means that the best moves are still limited to STAB, but Eevee gets to show signs of diversity early on before you evolve it, and the Eeveeloutions can show their relationship to each other.
Any of those options would make Eevee's gimmick a bit more obvious at all stages of it's life, which I think should be the goal. As-is, it's very generic normal early on, which is meh, and then the evolution varies wildly in how much Eevee's preexisting moveset helps.
Also, fun fact: Espeon and Umbreon used to not learn Charm, only Baby Doll Eyes. Charm was added to their lvl 1 moveset in Gen 8, because otherwise due to how the Sylveon priority worked with the new friendship mechanics, it would be impossible to have Charm on an Espeon/Umbreon.
Why are there more non-ground type families that learn Mud Shot naturally than ground type ones?
ok so only somewhat related to this thread, but what is with the levels the legendary genies learn their signature moves at. they all learn it at different levels, expect for enamorus and thundurus for some reason. like 1) why do they learn at different levels to begin with, and 2) why do enamorus and thundurus learn theirs at the same time? You'd think that enamorus and lando would share the level cause they learn different moves then the other 2 at level 1, 15, 40, 60, and 70, (and learn the same move at level 30, 45, and 70) so its seems like their learn sets should mirror each other the whole way thru. Is there a thematic reason for this, or did gamefreak just randomly choose to do it this way?
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I think this is just a consequence of how pla and sv were developed simultaneously, most additions and features that carried over seem rushed and implemented in quite a haphazard manner
Genuinely I think at least on Tornadus it might have been a typo from when they were inputting the levels.
Landorus is goofy since the only reason it's displaced is because in Gen 9 it doesn't have a level 25 move but still has the same number of moves while wanting Fissure to not be learned "early". So they just bump the new finale move up to 80 and even though its not...quite...the master anymore, it can kind of get away with it in that light.
Tornadus however has no discernible reason to learn it 2 levels differently from everyone else.
Landorus is goofy since the only reason it's displaced is because in Gen 9 it doesn't have a level 25 move but still has the same number of moves while wanting Fissure to not be learned "early". So they just bump the new finale move up to 80 and even though its not...quite...the master anymore, it can kind of get away with it in that light.
Tornadus however has no discernible reason to learn it 2 levels differently from everyone else.
I also want to voice some annoyance at the weird "3 and 1" pattern to a lot of moves across the group now, some of which only become odd with Enamorus but others (like Thundurus's Discharge vs the other 2 Extrasensory) existing even in the initial trio.
Part of this feels like it falls on GF not being able to decide if Enamorus is a counterpart to Landorus (by lore of representing Abundant seasons and arriving to Hisui in PLA's lore) or Tornadus and Thundurus (by Statline and the mishmash level up moves), so she just ends up in a weird mid-ground that emphasizes how tacked-on she is to the original trio. For the following list, I'm going to address the discrepancies assuming the former role as a secondary master/Landorus parallel, given the numbers are easier to tweak "under the hood" and lore is usually more apparent/emphasized across the multimedia nature.
Going down the list of ones particular to Enamorus (the Signatures being sort of a jumbled mess just in general)
The running joke of "Pokemon Fans Not See Patterns" challenge almost makes me wonder if the ones I think DO work well were the accident instead and they legitimately just chucked darts at a vaguely-defined criteria for Enamorus (i.e. "weak move here, status move here"). It's just so half-and-half that it's harder for me to believe/decide on which half was deliberate, which was lazy, or if neither applies at all.
Part of this feels like it falls on GF not being able to decide if Enamorus is a counterpart to Landorus (by lore of representing Abundant seasons and arriving to Hisui in PLA's lore) or Tornadus and Thundurus (by Statline and the mishmash level up moves), so she just ends up in a weird mid-ground that emphasizes how tacked-on she is to the original trio. For the following list, I'm going to address the discrepancies assuming the former role as a secondary master/Landorus parallel, given the numbers are easier to tweak "under the hood" and lore is usually more apparent/emphasized across the multimedia nature.
Going down the list of ones particular to Enamorus (the Signatures being sort of a jumbled mess just in general)
- Why Astonish instead of a low power Fairy move, such as Disarming Voice? Would mirror Landorus's Sand Tomb as a "Mom/Dad is coming to punish you," with one being a trapping move and the other being unavoidable (including by Substitute/"passing blame" due to the sound property)
- Torment I guess works as a "don't do it again" warning, but Landorus shares Leer with the other two, so it seems odd to not just make it consistent for the intimidating look
- Flatter to parallel Swagger? The move isn't really fitting of the disciplinary idea the way Landorus's "Block" is, again for a "you can't get out of this" feeling.
- Landorus's missing Boosting move is an anomaly that makes me wonder why neither Enamorus is blank nor Landorus just taking a page from her Iron Defense (which seems made for the Therian form's defensive build) like Bulk-Up or Swords Dance.
- Uproar at Level 50 is an odd inclusion for a similar reason to Astonish and Flatter.
- Healing Wish seems a little strange at Level 60 next to the Weather moves, as opposed to maybe giving her Sunny Day. Level 30's Imprison makes fine sense alongside Landorus, but under this Level 60 oddity, perhaps Healing Wish could have been L30 to round out the "thematic non-damaging moves" idea, with Torn and Thun buffing themselves, Landorus locking them down, and Enamorus healing things damaged by others.
For a Pokémon based on love, Flatter absolutely makes sense as a counterpoint to Swagger. Looking at is from the point of view of a a Lando counterpoint is affecting your judgement. Besides, the only real connection movewise Lando and Enamorus share that's not part of the others are imprison over charge/tailwind/some status boosting move and Outrage over Thrash. Aside from that, most of the weirdness seems to stem from its special focus over a physical focus or just general flavor. Does it really make sense for a Pokémon based on love to be using leer when torment would fit better? Would it really make sense for it to be biting or crunching rather than using its magical powers?
This definitely feels like someone got distracted when creating the movesets. A very slight reordering of Lando's moves makes this significantly less weird, and a few other replacements would make it nearly perfect counterparts. Instead we get so many weird niche "almost fits" that it would have been better if they didn't try at all.
Or if they are going to give different levels to the signature moves, Enamorous (north) should learn at 75, Landorus (west) and Thundurus (east) at 77 and Tornadus (south) at 80 so they would match their compass directions.
So it's already been pointed out by many people around the entire pokemon fanbase that Chikorita learns Disarming Voice in Z-A at some point despite not learning it before, which is definitely an oddity. I figured I'd look farther into it, to see just how much of a hint it is at Kalosian Meganium or Mega Meganium being a fairy type. And sure enough, Meganium has not learned Disarming Voice at any point! Not as a level up move, not as an egg move, not even from the TM for the move that was just added for the first time in SV.
That alone is very interesting, but it gets even more interesting. One could have argued that maybe it's thematically fitting in some way and therefore was just added as a coverage option. But....Meganium only learns a single Fairy type move, that being Charm (which they give to tons of cute pokemon). But perhaps the most interesting thing is that Meganium doesn't even learn any sound moves! Not even Hyper Voice....which is the default "voice" move and given to tons of pokemon through TMs, including many pokemon that have nothing to do with sound or voices and learn few or no other sound moves.
So if the Chikorita line learns no Fairy type attacks, no sound attacks, and never learned it at any point, there's seemingly no reason for Chikorita to learn Disarming Voice. So it seems very likely that whatever new form Meganium gets is a Fairy type, and this is why they added the move to Chikorita.
That alone is very interesting, but it gets even more interesting. One could have argued that maybe it's thematically fitting in some way and therefore was just added as a coverage option. But....Meganium only learns a single Fairy type move, that being Charm (which they give to tons of cute pokemon). But perhaps the most interesting thing is that Meganium doesn't even learn any sound moves! Not even Hyper Voice....which is the default "voice" move and given to tons of pokemon through TMs, including many pokemon that have nothing to do with sound or voices and learn few or no other sound moves.
So if the Chikorita line learns no Fairy type attacks, no sound attacks, and never learned it at any point, there's seemingly no reason for Chikorita to learn Disarming Voice. So it seems very likely that whatever new form Meganium gets is a Fairy type, and this is why they added the move to Chikorita.
It will be very funny when the final formes are leaked/the final games come out and meganium doesn't have a fairy form. Would be another case of pokemon fans coping on something, only to get proven wrong and be upset (like with dudunsparce, no, you don't deserve a dragon type dunsparce evo, if you look into the lore dudunsparce is in line with what dunsparce is doing).
yea but like, unlike the fanmade dunsparce evolutions this actually makes sense and isn't a huge reach? you're thinking too broadly I feel
Dropping in to ask if anyone knows wtf is up with teleport's tm distribution. Is there any rhyme or reason to it at all or is this overworked 90s game freak tossing darts and figuring who cares, it's a field utility move.
Like you've got a bunch of psychic types, that mostly makes sense, I guess if it's going to be a TM and not the abra line's signature move, that the obvious place to go. Then we have a couple of electric types. I guess the idea is they can turn themselves into electricity and ride power lines? But how do they carry the player? uuuhhhh ok. Then we have the honorary "not capital P Psychic but you learn psychic and are kinda psychic" bug and normal types Butterfree/Venomoth/Clefable/Wigglytuff/Chansey/Porygon. Again, not a lot of sense, but these guys have nonsensical movepools in general and kinda have psychic powers.
But then we get the plain wtf ones. Cloyster??? Arcanine??? Magmar???
The best I can come up with is that Magmar and Cloyster get it because they are version exclusives with mons who get it, and since it's a utility move, they don't want players with that version to feel left out? Maybe Arcanine is the same and at some point Ninetales was slated to get it but it got cut. Or maybe the just like the big dog idunno.
Like you've got a bunch of psychic types, that mostly makes sense, I guess if it's going to be a TM and not the abra line's signature move, that the obvious place to go. Then we have a couple of electric types. I guess the idea is they can turn themselves into electricity and ride power lines? But how do they carry the player? uuuhhhh ok. Then we have the honorary "not capital P Psychic but you learn psychic and are kinda psychic" bug and normal types Butterfree/Venomoth/Clefable/Wigglytuff/Chansey/Porygon. Again, not a lot of sense, but these guys have nonsensical movepools in general and kinda have psychic powers.
But then we get the plain wtf ones. Cloyster??? Arcanine??? Magmar???
The best I can come up with is that Magmar and Cloyster get it because they are version exclusives with mons who get it, and since it's a utility move, they don't want players with that version to feel left out? Maybe Arcanine is the same and at some point Ninetales was slated to get it but it got cut. Or maybe the just like the big dog idunno.
Honestly? In Gen I, there’s nothing that inherently suggests that Teleport is tied to Psychic-adjacent mons beyond its type, sorta like Rest. The description in Stadium/Stadium2 just states “A special technique for instantly escaping from wild Pokémon. Useful in the wild only.” You can totally say, for example, that Arcanine’s blazing Speed is smth akin to Teleport.
Or, the more simple explanation: it’s Gen I, there was no rhyme or reason to a lot of shit to begin with lol
Or, the more simple explanation: it’s Gen I, there was no rhyme or reason to a lot of shit to begin with lol
Oricorio can't learn Encore. Not even the cheerleader forme, where it would make the most sense (Plusle and Minun do).
That's pretty pathetic.
That's pretty pathetic.
Considering how the forms are interchangeable, I get why Oricorio doesn't get form-exclusive moves, but it is unfortunate. I could see Encore working for it as a general move, though.
My own little contribution: I was looking at various moves and discovered that Great Tusk and Iron Treads learn Megahorn by level, but Donphan has never been able to learn the move. Sure, the female has smaller tusks, but if Spinarak/Goldeen/Rhyhorn can use the move with the their tiny horns, Donphan's tusks should definitely qualify. On the other hand, Great Tusk's great tusks are so long and curved that it would probably struggle to get a piercing strike off with them.
Which was just Sword & Shield
And Legends Arceus and Let's Go.
I was talking about with regards to Donphan
The core of the post is "it's weird these two got Megahorn but regular Donphan doesn't"
Ignoring that with its two prominent horns it could have had it added to its moveset either naturally or through breeding before Gen 9, if its 2 counterparts get the move then it probably could have easily been given the move here where it was clearly on their minds.
Related to this, but the Mega Horn situation for the Muskeeters and their paradox counterparts is also goofy. All 4 of the regulars only got the move as TR in SWSH; considering the kind of Pokemon that they are and the prominence of their horns (or "horns") it's odd they never got it by level up. I think Keldeo in particular probably should have learned it by level up at some point in its career; it has by far the most prominent horn that fits the aesthetic of mega horn the best. Meanwhile Megahorn got to be part of the level up movesets for Iron Leaves & Boulder! But not Iron Crown? Sure it's the special attacking one but that doesnt stop it from getting a lot of other physical horn-esque moves.