Pokémon X & Y In-game Tier List Discussion (MkII)

cant say

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I noticed that while editing my Squirtle entry you have written that it can beat Wulfric with Ice Beam, that should be Flash Cannon. There are also two Trapinch sprites, presumably because you would have just CP'd the body of my entry and posted it below the existing sprite.

That aside, I'd like to reserve Honedge, Chespin and Sylveon

EDIT:


Honedge
Availability:
Route 6 (Common)
Stats: Honedge and Doublade's stats favor their physical attack and defence, however Aegislash's stats are much more balanced so it is very bulky in Shield forme and can hit very hard in Blade forme. They are all quite slow though.
Typing: Very good defensively. Ghost gives an immunity to the common Normal and Fighting types, while Steel gives an immunity to Poison and resistance to many other types.
Movepool: Early access to Swords Dance, Shadow Claw and Shadow Sneak give it a lot of power from the start, as well as Autotomize to help with it's speed. As an Aegislash it can make use of Shadow Ball and Hidden Power.
Major Battles: Keep Honedge away from Grant's Tyrunt, sweeps Korrina, fairs well against Ramos but watch out for Gogoat, keep away from Valerie's Mawile, sweeps Olympia and Wulfric. In the Elite 4 do not bother with Malva but can contribute against the others. Against Diantha you can set up on Hawlucha and sweep.
Additional Comments: Honedge's defensive typing and great stats allows it to be a strong Pokemon for the whole story. You need to find a Dusk Stone to get Aegislash however Doublade is a very capable Pokemon so evolving is not necessary.


Chespin
Availability:
Starter Pokemon
Stats: Good bulk with a nice attack stat. Speed is below average
Typing: Grass/Fighting once fully evolved provides weaknesses to several common types including Team Flares many Fire and Poison types, as well as a 4x weakness to the common Flying type
Movepool: Early access to the Swords Dance TM and a good physical movepool allow it to hit hard. Bulldoze and Rock Tomb can help with it's low speed. Can be taught Cut and Strength if needed
Major Battles: Chespin does not standout in any gyms but can contribute in places. Rollout can be used to get through Viola's gym, Bulldoze helps with Grant's Tyrunt and Clemont's Magneton and Heliolisk, Aerial Ace hurts Korrina and Ramos' Pokemon but watch out for Hawlucha and Jumpluff respectively. Chesnaught should stay away from the last three gyms though. Chesnaught struggles at the Pokemon League but can beat Siebold's Clawitzer and Barbaracle.
Additional Comments: Chespin and its evolutions fail to make a major impact during much of the story but is a consistent Pokemon nonetheless.


Eevee - Sylveon
Availability:
Route 10 (Rare)
Stats: Sylveon has great special bulk and a powerful special attack stat. It is quite slow
Typing: Fairy comes with two weaknesses; Poison and Steel. Poison is mostly weilded by Team Flare and Steel is quite uncommon. It also has an immunity to Dragon type moves which is handy later in the game.
Movepool: Sylveon's movepool is very barren but it gets what it needs. Draining Kiss and Swift are your offensive options for much of the early game with Moonblast and Shadow Ball being available later, as well as Calm Mind to boost. Because of its limited options, Sylveon has room for Cut.
Major Battles: You can sweep Korrina with Draining Kiss, however that is it for Gym battles. Stay away from Wikstrom of the Elite 4. Sylveon can beat Drasna aside from her Dragalge, and also put up a fight against Diantha's Goodra and Mega Gardevior.
Additional Comments: You need to achieve two hearts worth of affection in Pokemon Amie and have Eevee know a Fairy type move to evolve into Sylveon. It is recommended doing this at or below level 20 so that Sylveon can learn Draining Kiss.

Am I doing these right?
 
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I'll be a wee bit more concise this time. I just went long with Aero because there are so many good things to say about it.

Anyways, claiming Sawk, Gardevoir, and Skrelp.


Name:
Gardevoir
Availability: Early, Route 4, Uncommon.
Stats: It has a very high Special Attack stat, with decent Speed and Special Defense to back it up. It's other stats aren't great, but they're good enough.
Typing: Psychic/Fairy is good offensively, though Steel does resist both of them. Defensively, it resists Fighting and Psychic, is immune to Dragon, and is only weak to Poison, Steel, and Ghost.
Movepool: It naturally learns strong STAB options such as Psychic and Moonblast. It also has an expansive enough TM movepool to cover anything it wants.
Major Battles: It has a big advantage over Korrina, and fares well against Team Flare with it's dual STABs. Keep it away from Wilkstrom, but other than that, it can perform fine anywhere.
Additional Comments: Make sure to keep a Heart Scale handy to learn Moonblast when you reach Dendemille Town, or you'll have to wait until Level 85 to learn it.


Name: Sawk
Availability: Mid-game, Route 11, Common
Stats: Phenomenal Attack and great Speed are what make Sawk shine. It's defenses are passable as well.
Typing: Fighting is amazing offensively, hitting five types for super-effective damage. Defensively, it resists little, but only has three weaknesses: Psychic, Flying, and Fairy.
Movepool: It gets amazing Fighting-type moves by level-up, and by the time you get it, you'll have access to Rock Tomb and Payback via TM, and you'll soon have access to Poison Jab too, meaning Sawk can cover every type that resists it's STAB.
Major Battles: Due to it's wide movepool, it can defeat any foe with little trouble, but it particularly stands out when taking on Wulfric. The many Dark-types used by Team Flare are also easy prey for Sawk.
Additional Comments: Sturdy is a nifty ability on something with only average defenses. Sawk also learns Rock Smash and Strength, if you need them.


Name:Skrelp
Availability: Mid-game, Cyllage City, Common (Fish with Good Rod).
Stats: As Dragalge, it has amazing Special Defense, great Special Attack, and decent Attack and Defense stats. However, it's Speed is horribly low.
Typing: Skrelp is Poison/Water, a very good defensive typing. When it evolves into Dragalge, it becomes Poison/Dragon, gaining more weaknesses, but also more resistances.
Movepool: It learns all the STAB moves it could ever want by level-up. It also learns nifty coverage moves such as Thunderbolt and Surf (which is no longer STAB as Dragalge).
Major Battles: Its an alright choice to fight Ramos, and fares well against Valerie. It can struggle elsewhere due to it's abysmal speed and average power. Keep it far, far away from Olympia, Wulfric, and Wilkstrom.
Additional Comments: It is very slow, so it will almost always have to take a hit before attacking, which can cause problems. It also requires backtracking to capture (you need to get the Good Rod in Coumarine City). To top it all off, it evolves at the high level of 48, making raising it quite a hassle.

If these are acceptable, I'd also like Meditite, Helioptile, and Pumpkaboo (with trade).
 
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Its_A_Random

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Yeah that is fine.

Anyhow reserving Gligar, Murkrow, and a fun write-up in Spinda. >:)

EDIT:

Gligar
Availability:
Route 19, Uncommon (Horde Only).
Stats: It has decent mixed bulk especially with an Eviolite and decent Speed, but a below average Attack stat at this point of the game.
Typing: Ground/Flying-typing comes with two nasty relevant weaknesses and no really useful resistances outside of Fighting-types this late in the game. It is however a very decent offensive typing.
Movepool: Gligar comes with a very broad offensive movepool which consists of Acrobatics (If no Eviolite), Earthquake, U-turn, X-scissor, Sky Uppercut, Rock Slide, Poison Jab and Slash. Gligar also comes with a decent support movepool but it will not be of great help.
Major Battles: Gligar struggles against Wulfric and Siebold in particular but has a good matchup against Wilkstrom and Malva. The rest are generally average to bad.
Additional Comments: Because of its Horde-only status, an hour or two of grinding is necessary in order to be able to use it effectively. Razor Fang is inaccessible until the post game, preventing it from evolving though Eviolite is a good alternative. These factors combined with coming very late in the game make Gligar a poor choice for running through the game.

Murkrow
Availability:
Route 15 and Route 16, Common (Horde Only).
Stats: Murkrow makes for a great mixed attacker with decent speed (prior to evolution), but its bulk is below average.
Typing: Dark/Flying-typing is great offensively but bad defensively with a few relevant weaknesses and not many relevant resistances. It has a relevant immunity to Psychic-type attacks though.
Movepool: Murkrow's coverage is limited to Dark-, Flying-, Normal-, Psychic-, and Ghost-type attacks, all of which have decent enough powered moves to be of use. Murkrow also has a potent support movepool but it struggles to make much use of it.
Major Battles: It struggles against Olympia despite its typing due to frailty and it loses to Wulfric. Its Team Flare game is average as is its Rival game. Its performance in the Pokémon League is average but it does well against AZ.
Additional Comments: Because of its Horde-only status, an hour or two of grinding is necessary in order to be able to use it effectively. Dusk Stone's out of the way location may make trying to evolve it infeasible. All in all, Murkrow is a poor choice for an efficient run in XY.

Spinda
Availability:
Route 21, 20%.
Stats: Base 60 stats across the board. Terrible for an endgame Pokémon.
Typing: Normal-typing comes with no super effective coverage and no resistances, which is very bad for a Pokémon like Spinda.
Movepool: The only good thing about Spinda, since it is gets a lot of coverage from Sucker Punch to Psychic to Dig to Shadow Ball to Rock Slide to Wild Charge to Brick Break and of course, its Normal-type STAB. It has a decent disruptive movepool as well. The key is being able to take advantage of it.
Major Battles: Spinda struggles in all major battles from the point you get it onwards. You need to be really skilled to get any major mileage out of it in major battles.
Additional Comments: Unless you are one of the most skilled when it comes to in-game runs, it is very difficult to get anything out of using Spinda ingame. This makes Spinda one of the worst choices for running through XY with.
 
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There are some weird mentions in the entries

Aerodactyl cannot learn Dig.
Mega Aerodactyl cleanly one shots Amaura with RockSmash and 2HKO Tyrunt with high probability even on Lv 23!
Delphox easily sets up Calm Mind on Dragalge(Surf from <100SpA isn't impressive) and sweeps Drasna with STAB Psychic/Psyshock. In fact it can even setup with Calm Mind on Pyroar and with CalmMind and SunnyDay against Clawitzer, if you like to be a dick. There is no gym leader after Korrina that the Delphox line cannot solo, if you want to do it.
This is a S Tier pokemon by the very definition.
Greninja does not get 2HKOd by Jumpluffs GrassKnot(60bp) and can sweep with PowerUpPunch->Acrobatics, same for Valerie because her Mawile lacks any meaningful moves. Olympia requires some attack rising as well(Reflect!) so Power Up Punch is a very important move for this Pokemon anyway.
Greninja has a wonderful movepool, but its stats suck. In the endgame it has to hit 4times super effective or with STAB super effective attacks to not get severely crippled by a counter attack.

Let´s not decide the match ups based on stereotypes and experiences in other games, because XY is very different when it comes to that and "when in doubt, calc it out" :)

Btw did anyone check the IV setting for the gym leaders yet, because that will influence how good the rated Pokemon really are.
I mentioned the odd case of Surskit having quite likely 21 speed and Amaura not being OHKOd by RockSmash from a bad Ivd lv25 Hawlucha, which indicates a constant full 31 IV spread for all gym leaders. Do you have other experiences?
 

Its_A_Random

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Fixed Aerodactyl not learning Dig but the Mega Aerodactyl taking out Grant easily thing is false simply because it is impossible to mega evolve before the third gym.

The problem with Fennekin is that it is not flawless and Braixen suffers from an awful mid-game movepool that it will generally be stuck with until like the fifth gym the latest. It is a great Pokémon but it is not dominant.

Similar with Delphox, it is very unlikely that you will get Greninja before the fourth gym and if you do, you are overleveled so of course you are not going to struggle against Ramos. Greninja could sweep Valerie but you are really wasting your time, especially given that Valerie is a trainer hell bent on making your Physical Attacks hit for as little as possible (meaning it will take too much time). And if you are not going for the obscure PuP strategy, you are not going to beat Valerie.

Write-ups will be reviewed later anyways.

Anyhow, let us roll Karrablast (w/o Trade), Luvdisc, and Shelmet (w/o Trade).


Karrablast (w/o Trade)
Availability:
Route 14, 10%.
Stats: Karrablast's best stat is Attack which is Base 75. It has mediocre speed and terrible bulk.
Typing: Bug-typing at this point of the game is good for one gym offensively and not much else. Defensively it suffers from one relevant weakness and no relevant resistances.
Movepool: Karrablast's movepool is limited to Bug-, Flying-, Normal-, and Poison-type coverage. Swords Dance is a good lategame option... if it had the bulk to use it properly.
Major Battles: Outside of possibly Olympia and half of your rivals team, Karrablast will struggle in every battle. It simply does not have the bulk or the speed to be able to do much.
Additional Comments: Eviolite is a decent item for it in terms of trying to help it live a hit to do something; combine with Swarm for good effect. Otherwise, Karrablast is one of the worst options for running through XY efficiently.

Luvdisc
Availability:
Route 8 and Cyllage City, 100% (Old Rod).
Stats: Outside of an above average Speed stat, Luvdisc's stats are terrible, especially its offensive stats.
Typing: Water-typing is decent with good coverage, but suffers from two relevant weaknesses.
Movepool: Horrible. Its coverage is limited to Normal-, Water-, and Ice-type moves. Its support movepool is somewhat decent and it is good for Water-type HM slavery.
Major Battles: There is no major battle that Luvdisc does not struggle against, even against those it has a type advantage against because its offenses are so weak.
Additional Comments: It is great as a reliable way to gain Heart Scales and that is basically it. It is one of the worst possible choices for an efficient run in XY.

Shelmet (w/o Trade)
Availability:
Route 14, 10%.
Stats: Shelmet has fairly decent bulk—especially with an Eviolite—but it has terrible offenses and very low speed.
Typing: Bug-typing at this point of the game is good for one gym offensively and not much else. Defensively it suffers from one relevant weakness and no relevant resistances.
Movepool: Bad. Shelmet has a decent offensive movepool with Giga Drain, Bug Buzz, Body Slam, and Sludge Bomb the stand-outs. Shelmet also has Recover which could be useful for saving potions.
Major Battles: Shelmet struggles every matchup from when you get it onwards. Its terrible offensive presence and bulk that is above average at best means it will struggle to contribute effectively anywhere.
Additional Comments: Shell Armor is preferred to prevent random critical hits from taking it out. Eviolite is preferred on Shelmet. These do not save Shelmet from being one of the worst options for going through XY with however.

All done.
 
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Okay, reserving Fletchling, Croagunk, and Yanma.

EDIT:

Fletchling
Availability:
Route 2 and Route 3, 20%
Stats: As a Talonflame, it Base 126 Speed, giving it the edge in attacking first even against fast higher-leveled opponents. Its other stats are mediocre but still very usable in terms of offense and defense
Typing: Normal/Flying is decent early game. Upon evolving into Fletchinder, it becomes Fire/Flying, allowing it to handle Steel types better in exchange for losing to losing to most Rock, Electric, and Water-types.
Movepool: Fletchling always has a reliable Flying STAB to use throughout the game. Return is good Normal STAB, but it lacks strong Fire STAB until late-game. The Move Relearner grants it early access to both Flare Blitz and Brave Bird. Other useful moves are Fly, Fire Blast, Swords Dance, Roost, and Taunt.
Major Battles: It performs well against Viola, Korrina, and Ramos, and is usable against Wulfric. It does not contribute against Team Flare besides KO Fighting-types. At the Pokémon League, it can beat most of Wikstrom's Pokémon and can beat Diantha's Hawlucha and Gourgeist.
Additional Comments: Fletchling's viability in-game is highly dependent on its type matchups, as it cannot overcome most foes who have the type advantage. Nevertheless, it is still a solid choice for its Flying STAB and high Speed.


Croagunk
Availability:
Route 7, 35% in Grass, 5% in Flowers
Stats: Toxicroak strongest stat is base 106 Attack, but has enough Sp. Attack to go mixed offense. Its Speed is at the average base 85, and its defenses are at the point where taking any strong unresisted hit is risky.
Typing: Poison/Fighting gives Croagunk very distinct traits. Its STABs are useful when it gets them. Defensively, it has a number of glaring weaknesses that are balanced out by its just as notable resistances. A Poison immunity is handy, too.
Movepool: This is Croagunk's most notable trait. It starts with a quirky set of attacks, with Revenge learned just before Grant. Its learnset gets gradually better throughout the game thanks to its access to plenty of good TMs and to learning Sucker Punch at Level 31. By the Pokémon League, it can switch between TMs to adapt to a variety of trainers.
Major Battles: It sweeps through Grant easily and can handle Wulfric okay. It can't do the same to Ramos or Valerie, however, due mainly to having one of its weaknesses exploited by at least one of their Pokémon each. With wide type coverage and its Dry Skin ability, it adapts to many battles, most notably those at the Pokémon League.
Additional Comments: Anticipation can signal trouble spots, but Dry Skin is superior since it lets Croagunk beat Water types as well as give it free healing when battling at a rainy location.


Yanma
Availability:
Route 10, Horde (Uncommon)
Stats: Base 95 Speed from the get-go is good until you notice it does not gain any speed when Evolving. Its Sp. Attack is its best stat while everything else is less than average.
Typing: Bug/Flying is good at the time it is found, but it outlives its usefulness during the mid-game until it gets its primary STAB moves. For each resistance it has, it also has a dangerous weakness to look out for.
Movepool: Yanma's movepool is very shallow. Sonicboom has some use for quickly leveling it up. It lacks good offensive options until it learns Ancient Power. Since Bug Buzz and Air Slash are learned by the Move Relearner, letting Yanma learn Hypnosis before evolving is an option on the way there. TM Shadow Ball provides some needed coverage.
Major Battles: Yanma lacks the power to sweep through Korrina and Ramos despite the type advantage but can at least beat Olympia as a Yanmega. It has very few advantage elsewhere, especially at the Pokémon League.
Additional Comments: Yanma has two great abilities, one of which changes into an also great Tinted Lens ability upon evolution. Overall, Yanma takes too much time to train before it becomes anything worthwhile in-game.
 
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Name: Meditite
Availability: Early, Connecting Cave, 30%
Stats: Overall, it has poor stats. It's defenses are mediocre, it's Speed is average at best, and it's Attack and Special Attack are just awful. However, it's ability, Pure Power, raises it's Attack to be on par with Black Kyurem.
Typing: Fighting/Psychic leaves it resistant to only Fighting and Rock, while being weak to Flying, Ghost, and Fairy. Offensively, Fighting and Psychic don't compliment each other well, but being a powerful Fighting-type is always a good thing.
Movepool: It can learn Rock Smash by TM right after you get it, which isn't great, but it'll hold you over until High Jump Kick, an obscenely powerful STAB that comes at the low level of 32, and courtesy of TMs and the Move Relearner, it has a wide variety of coverage options, including the elemental punches, Poison Jab, and Rock Slide.
Major Battles: Assuming you're faster, Meditite will grind Grant into dust. Your rival and most of Team Flare will also be easy targets, and Wulfric stands no chance. If you have Fire Punch, Wilkstrom will also be easy (Aegislash ruins Medicham without it). Due to lacking a good Psychic STAB mid-game, keep it away from Korrina (especially her Hawlucha).
Additional Comments: Medicham has the power and the coverage to dominate any enemy you come across. However, it can't take hits well, so if it isn't OHKOing the enemy, it will likely be KOed in return. Beware things that are faster than Medicham, and it'll be fine.


Name: Helioptile
Availability: Early, Route 9, 20%
Stats: It has great Speed and Special Attack, and decent Special Defense. However, it's HP and Defense are quite low, meaning it can't take physical hits, and it's Attack is far too low to use.
Typing: Electric/Normal is an odd typing. It is immune to Ghost, resists Electric, Flying, and Steel, and is only weak to Fighting and Ground. Offensively, Electric is decent, but Normal doesn't really compliment it well.
Movepool: Parabolic Charge is a decent STAB for early-game, until you get the Thunderbolt TM from Clemont. It learns Surf by HM, which covers the Ground-types immune to Thunderbolt. Grass Knot and Focus Blast are other nifty coverage moves. Hyper Beam is also worth noting as the only usable Special Normal STAB it gets.
Major Battles: Siebold is a cakewalk, and Lysandre is also pretty easy (be careful against Mienshao though). Keep it far away from Korrina, and Drasna is tough for it, but otherwise, it doesn't really lose anywhere.
Additional Comments: Be sure to trade the Intriguing Stone to the Hiker in Shalour City for a Sun Stone to evolve as early as possible. It doesn't need any level-up moves anyways. Hope to get Dry Skin as it's ability, as the Water immunity is quite handy.


Name: Pumpkaboo (w/trade)
Availability: Late-game, Route 16, 61%
Stats: All forms have excellent Defense. The smaller forms have great Speed, while the larger forms have greater HP and Attack. All forms have terrible Special Attack.
Typing: Grass/Ghost has four resistances and two immunities, but also has four unfortunate weaknesses, to Ghost, Dark, Fire, and Ice. Ghost is always a great attacking type, but Grass is poor offensively.
Movepool: It learns two solid STABs, Seed Bomb and Phantom Force, by level-up. Leech Seed and Will-o-Wisp are also available (though the former may require a Heart Scale to relearn. It learns a wide range of Special moves, including Fire Blast, but it's Special Attack is too low to use it.
Major Battles: It can handle Olympia and Siebold quite well, but struggles greatly against every other remaining major battle. Keep it as far away from Wulfric and Malva as possible.
Additional Comments: No matter what size you get, it will have some issues. Larger sizes have to take hits before attacking, while smaller sizes don't hit hard enough.

If these are good, I'll reserve Skiddo, Mime Jr., and Mothim.
 
Fixed Aerodactyl not learning Dig but the Mega Aerodactyl taking out Grant easily thing is false simply because it is impossible to mega evolve before the third gym.

The problem with Fennekin is that it is not flawless and Braixen suffers from an awful mid-game movepool that it will generally be stuck with until like the fifth gym the latest. It is a great Pokémon but it is not dominant.

Similar with Delphox, it is very unlikely that you will get Greninja before the fourth gym and if you do, you are overleveled so of course you are not going to struggle against Ramos. Greninja could sweep Valerie but you are really wasting your time, especially given that Valerie is a trainer hell bent on making your Physical Attacks hit for as little as possible (meaning it will take too much time). And if you are not going for the obscure PuP strategy, you are not going to beat Valerie.
You are right about the Mega Evolution, that totally slipped my mind after 8 months :)

Btw which levels do we have to assume for the different gyms?
A medium slow learner needs so much less experience than medium fast(would be around 34) and even less than slow (below 32) learners to reach lv. 36.

For Delphox I can see the drought in Grants gym and from Korrina to Ramos but lets talk real, Honedge sucks against every special attacker for a long time (especially from after Ramos until Valerie it sucks quite a bit in major battles) so that does not seem to be the criteria for S rank?!

I will do some analysis next weekend, to give more input :)
 

Its_A_Random

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You are right about the Mega Evolution, that totally slipped my mind after 8 months :)

Btw which levels do we have to assume for the different gyms?
A medium slow learner needs so much less experience than medium fast(would be around 34) and even less than slow (below 32) learners to reach lv. 36.

For Delphox I can see the drought in Grants gym and from Korrina to Ramos but lets talk real, Honedge sucks against every special attacker for a long time (especially from after Ramos until Valerie it sucks quite a bit in major battles) so that does not seem to be the criteria for S rank?!

I will do some analysis next weekend, to give more input :)
Generally about the levels of similar opponents for objectivity reasons.

Also yeah Honedge does not suck in the majority of Gym Battles lol. By Ramos it has an Eviolite and the only attack Honedge really fears is Gogoat's Bulldoze. Clemont will prove a bit troublesome however. Valerie lacks any reliable way to deal with Doublade though its attacks will likely be blunted as much as possible. With Olympia it only really fears Meowstic's Shadow Ball which will typically 2HKO through Eviolite. Wulfric does not have anything on Doublade / Aegislash. Pokémon League and Malva is the only terrible matchup. It kinda is S-Tier material. Honedge plays a lot similar to BW2 Magnemite and that is a top tier mon in that game. You are kinda blowing the low Special Defence out of proportion because it really does not matter most of the time.

I am also going to update this tonight or tomorrow so yeah!
 
Honedge isn't similar to BW2 Magnemite. Bar Clay and to a lesser extent Marlon, Magnemite was able to steamroll almost everything in the game. Honedge requires prediction because some pokes have coverage moves which can cripple it. It has atrocious speed so it has to be healed quite often with potions (Ok, it has Shadow Sneak, which can be useful early-game, but late-game it isn't reliable because there are a lot of bulky foes), pathetic Sp.Def (kinda fixed with Eviolite but even here, emmm...) and some crippling weaknesses (mainly Ground, Fire and Dark, as Ghost moves aren't common) and some doubtful match-ups (Clemont, Malva, Team Flare). So, I think it's more A than S-tier material.
 
I did not say any of what you stated Its_A_Random just read my comment again.
I´m not even saying that Honedge is in any way bad, but every top tier pokemon has its not so good streak in this game, that does not make a valid argument against the Delphox line. Btw the Honedge line has quite a hard time against Drasna and Siebold as a Doublade because of powerful special attackers and as a Aegislash because it has to Kings Shield all the time...

Even leveled means we assume e.g. lv 34 before Ramos for medium slow learners and respective downgrades (lv.32/lv.30) for the others then, right? That will make it quite a bit harder for all the Pokemon but I will check the calcs for some of the tiered Pokemon by the weekend :)
 

cant say

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The thing about XY compared to BW2 is that there is no one Pokemon that steamrolls the whole game itself, all the S-tier 'mons here have patches where they struggle. Should Charizard X/Y be put back to A because it is useless against Grant, have issues with Clemont and lose to Siebold except Char Y Solarbeam. Hell even my CharX struggled against Drasna... But all it's other performances were great and it is easily an S-tier Pokemon.

I think the comparison to BW2 Magnenite (I could be wrong here) was that it has a great defensive typing, hits hard, is bulky and a bit slow. If we're talking sheer 'Magnemite god tier' then the only comparison I think we have in XY is Aerodactyl and Riolu/Lucario, does that mean that everything that isn't Aerodactyl or Riolu/Lucario should be moved down to A-tier? No, because those other 'mons are S-tier in their own right, not compared to others in the tier.

As for Fennekin, I was very underwhelmed with it's mid game performance. It lacks a good STAB move until evolution to Delphox. Unless you're over-levelled it even struggles against Ramos as Jumpluff outspeeds and 2hkos with Acrobatics, then you have to deal with Gogoat's Bulldoze. Doesn't do too much to Team Flare, lacks any good moves for Olympia, and is only really good for Wikstrom at the E4. I'm just checking the entry we have for Fennekin at the moment and I think it's spot on!

I also don't believe that experience growth to be a massive factor here. Something I've noticed is that slow growers have good stats to make up for their lower level, while fast growers have lower stats. So while you may enter a gym battle with something under levelled, it will generally be bulky / fast / hit hard enough to offset this. Same with fast growers, you may be over levelled and still get steam rolled because of their worse stats... Also, most people who lose a gym match due to being under levelled generally go and train to level up their team. I don't see how this could affect a pokemon's tiering that much

Anyway I'd like to use this rant to reserve Furfrou and Solrock

edit: could I extend my 24 hour deadline until tomorrow? Got sidetracked today..
 
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Its_A_Random

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I meant the bulky slow steel-type by BW2 Magnemite not the whole god mode thing; They are both bulky, they both have lots of resists, they both have a competent attacking stat, they are both capable even if they do not fully evolve... I should have made myself clear.

But yeah its slump areas are not as horrible as Fennekin's though.
 
We could just make it S+ and S (or S-) tiers. S+ for beating most, if not all, of the game without needing any support or huge grinding time (like BW2 Magnemite or, from what I hear, XY Aerodactyl), and then S for just really amazing, not game-breaking. This way, we won't have people saying that god-mode and amazing but flawed shouldn't be in the same tier, and save time in the future so that we won't have to deal with anything like this again.
 

DHR-107

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Mulan15262 IAR has said time and again he isn't going to split the tiers more.

People seem to have gotten a little fixated on this for some reason. A pokemon can still be S and be bad at a point. Pokemon can be A and be better/worse than others as well. Not all S tier Pokemon are as good as the others, but they are still far and away better options than those in B/C/D etc.

We only have 5 Pokemon in S rank anyway, there is 0 reason to split that tier... In regards to the Delphox/Honedge debate, I found honedge a LOT better than Delphox the entire way through the game. Braixen lacked power and had movepool issues whereas Honedge carried me through most of the game. Doublade with Eviolite (something very much worth mentioning cant say) can take hits on both sides and has good matchups against every single gym (apart from maybe Clemont). I can't say anything about Aegislash as I never evolved my Doublade because I didn't want to mess around with stupid Stance Change shenanigans.

I used these two in back to backs, and felt Delphox was simply not as strong over as long a period. It's still an A rank mon!
 

Its_A_Random

A distant memory
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As DHR said, I am not dividing tiers and if I were to do so, then S would be the last thing I would split up. There is absolutely no reason to.

Anyhow I have updated the lists finally. A couple of things to repeat:
  • Remember when to use its and it's: its indicates ownership (Its STAB coverage is terrible offensively) while it's is a contraction for it is (It's a bad idea to use Ditto in the Pokémon League). People do keep getting it mixed up. This is eventually going to be reviewed by GP after all. I am sick of having to alter this now... -.-'
  • Stick to the c/pable format in the OP: It is done that way for easy c/ping and whatnot. It also creates consistency and whatnot. Name is just a placeholder to be replaced with the actual entry name for what it is worth.
That is all for now, 41 entries done now! ^_^
 
Mulan15262

Apart from what DHR-107 said, I would love to add how great it is that we still argue about tier rankings, the pros and the cons of the Pokemon and even some details in the analyses. Every one of us can only play the game from his/her point of view so by sharing our view angles we get closer to the 360 degree :)

Don´t think about it that negatively, it´s not a problem if other people have other opinions and it does not matter that much who will be considered right in the end.
The process of negotiating can only make the Tier list more solid and that´s what it is about: giving solid information about the performance of every available Pokemon in the game.

To just give my last cents on the Braixen or now (not intended by me) Honedge-Braixen debate:
I tend to have my starter at 36 when I arrive at Ramos because of the new leveling system(no more exp split when you switch!) and never having more than 4 Pokemon by that time. That always grants me gifts like LuckyEgg at the very least before I leave Coumarine, which is important for me, since I never grind against wild Pokemon. After that the medium fast leveling carries the Pokemon quite a bit through the next stages, so obviously they perform better for me than for those that do not prioritize like that :)
The natural overleveling phases that a Pokemon shows after they made a major contribution influences the nearer (in game) future quite a bit to the positive side, so performance gets amplified during gameplay.

That was also why I mentioned Greninjas performance in one of my posts:
It at least can nuke more gyms than you would expect, which is not noteworthy per se, but we are not to judge which way the trainer will go. We judge about efficiency.
So if for example Greninja has all the tools to overcome a theoretically bad matchup(with time and effort!) it should not be listed as a major problem in the matchup overview. Such matchups do belong in the neutral category and the pros and cons regarding those are better left into typing, movepool and stats, where they often belong.

Now some love for DHR-107 and just to make Doublade look more garbage(which it totally isn´t!): calc the incoming damage from Clemont onwards (Route 14/15) with fair level assumptions and you will see its flaws. But like every other Top Tier(S+A) Pokemon it can overcome those flaws with some care.

So I would like to get us to the point where we judge such cases based on what makes this game: mathematics - give love to numbers!

PS: I still have some problems to discuss in english so getting to the point is a bit hard sometimes - sorry for those walls of text :D
 

Name: Mime Jr.
Availability: Mid-game, Reflection Cave (Horde)
Stats: As Mime Jr., it has poor stats, but as Mr. Mime, it has great Special Attack, Special Defense, and Speed. Its HP and Defense are quite low.
Typing: Psychic/Fairy is a nice offensive combo, being resisted by only Steel. It only resists Psychic, Fighting, and Dragon, but it is only weak to Ghost, Poison, and Steel.
Movepool: It learns good Psychic moves by level-up, and gets Dazzling Gleam via TM. It has a wide movepool with TMs, including Shadow Ball, Thunderbolt, Focus Blast, and Calm Mind.
Major Battles: Korrina and Team Flare fall before it, and Drasna is a good matchup too. Don't try to fight Wilkstrom with it. Outside of that, it can excel anywhere with the right coverage moves.
Additional Comments: While you can catch it as Mr. Mime, if you catch a Mime Jr., it is guaranteed to have three 31 IVs, meaning better stats overall. If caught as Mime Jr., it does require a bit of grinding to catch up, but nothing to fret over.


Name: Skiddo
Availability: Early, Route 5, 10%
Stats: Skiddo has good enough stats for early-game. Gogoat has excellent HP, backed up by good Attack, Special Attack, and Special Defense. Its a little on the slow side, however.
Typing: Pure Grass isn't very good, but at least it packs resistances to Water, Electric, and Ground (as well as Grass itself). Having five weaknesses is never a good thing.
Movepool: It learns good physical STAB moves by level, and also learns Milk Drink and Earthquake by level. Rock Slide is a nice coverage move it picks up via TM, and it also learns Surf, which is always handy.
Major Battles: It can beat Siebold with relative ease, but be wary of Gyarados. Grant is also a good matchup, but make sure you're faster than his Amaura. If you have Aerial Ace, it can win against Ramos, but beware Jumpluff. It can beat Clemont, but stay away from Emolga. It flat loses to Malva and Wulfric, and has issues with most other fights.
Additional Comments: Sap Sipper nets it a free Attack boost when hit by Grass moves, which may come in handy. It is a solid choice for in-game, but watch out for its weaknesses.


Name: Burmy > Mothim
Availability: Early, Route 3, 10% (must be male)
Stats: Burmy's stats are atrocious. Mothim has good Attack and Special Attack, but is very frail, and pretty slow too.
Typing: Bug/Flying offers a few nice resistances, but a huge amount of crippling weaknesses. They work together well offensively, but Steel resists both.
Movepool: Burmy learns nothing useful. Mothim learns good moves by level, including Bug Buzz, Air Slash, Hidden Power, Psychic, and the amazing boosting move Quiver Dance. Energy Ball and Acrobatics are available via TM.
Major Battles: Burmy can't touch Viola, and it loses to Grant, Clemont, Wulfric, Malva, and Wilkstrom. Korrina, Ramos, and Olympia are weak to Mothim's STAB moves, but each has one Pokemon to watch out for (Machoke, Jumpluff, and Sigilyph, respectively). It fares decently against Team Flare.
Additional Comments: Burmy needs a lot of babying until it evolves, and even then, you're left with a mediocre Pokemon. A good Hidden Power type makes it better, but overall, Mothim is far from an efficient choice.

Dibs on Wormadam-Plant Cloak (who should probably be F-tier from my experience with it), Espurr (F), and Mienfoo.
 
Mulan15262

Apart from what DHR-107 said, I would love to add how great it is that we still argue about tier rankings, the pros and the cons of the Pokemon and even some details in the analyses. Every one of us can only play the game from his/her point of view so by sharing our view angles we get closer to the 360 degree :)

Don´t think about it that negatively, it´s not a problem if other people have other opinions and it does not matter that much who will be considered right in the end.
The process of negotiating can only make the Tier list more solid and that´s what it is about: giving solid information about the performance of every available Pokemon in the game.

To just give my last cents on the Braixen or now (not intended by me) Honedge-Braixen debate:
I tend to have my starter at 36 when I arrive at Ramos because of the new leveling system(no more exp split when you switch!) and never having more than 4 Pokemon by that time. That always grants me gifts like LuckyEgg at the very least before I leave Coumarine, which is important for me, since I never grind against wild Pokemon. After that the medium fast leveling carries the Pokemon quite a bit through the next stages, so obviously they perform better for me than for those that do not prioritize like that :)
The natural overleveling phases that a Pokemon shows after they made a major contribution influences the nearer (in game) future quite a bit to the positive side, so performance gets amplified during gameplay.

That was also why I mentioned Greninjas performance in one of my posts:
It at least can nuke more gyms than you would expect, which is not noteworthy per se, but we are not to judge which way the trainer will go. We judge about efficiency.
So if for example Greninja has all the tools to overcome a theoretically bad matchup(with time and effort!) it should not be listed as a major problem in the matchup overview. Such matchups do belong in the neutral category and the pros and cons regarding those are better left into typing, movepool and stats, where they often belong.

Now some love for DHR-107 and just to make Doublade look more garbage(which it totally isn´t!): calc the incoming damage from Clemont onwards (Route 14/15) with fair level assumptions and you will see its flaws. But like every other Top Tier(S+A) Pokemon it can overcome those flaws with some care.

So I would like to get us to the point where we judge such cases based on what makes this game: mathematics - give love to numbers!

PS: I still have some problems to discuss in english so getting to the point is a bit hard sometimes - sorry for those walls of text :D
Why did you tag me? I never said anything about changing a pokemon's tiers, just about adding in an S+ tier for game-wrecking pokemon.
 

atsync

Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
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I'll reserve Flabebe.


Flabébé
Availability:
Route 4, 35%.
Stats: Flabébé specialises in Special Defense, but its stats aren't particularly great until it fully evolves. Florges has great special stats and decent Speed, but its physical stats are lacking.
Typing: Fairy has good neutral coverage and is useful later on for dealing with Dragons. Coverage against Fighting-types is also handy. Fairy's weakness to Poison hurts a bit though, especially against Team Flare.
Movepool: Flabébé is stuck with Fairy Wind as its best STAB for much of the game, with only Grass moves to compliment it. This limits Flabébé's power quite a bit since it relies on weak moves with poor synergy. It gets better moves later on and STAB Dazzling Gleam/Moonblast is great against anything that doesn't resist it, but its coverage is still limited to Moonblast, Psychic, and a Grass move.
Major Battles: Flabébé is not the most useful Pokemon for some of the earlier gyms, and it is not the best option against Team Flare either. It is fairly good against Korrina, but even there it is let down by its weak moves and low Speed and Defense. It is better late-game when it gets Dazzling Gleam since it hits most Pokemon that don't resist it pretty hard. It does quite well against Drasna and Diantha too.
Additional Comments: You should evolve Floette as soon as possible since there isn't anything important that Florges misses by doing so and the stat increase is dramatic. There is a Shiny Stone in the Skiddo Ranch. In general, Flabébé is an early route Pokemon that takes a while to get going, but it does cover some important types and it has its uses late-game.
 
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Why did you tag me? I never said anything about changing a pokemon's tiers, just about adding in an S+ tier for game-wrecking pokemon.
That´s because your comment seemed to imply that splitting tiers would avoid discussions(I can not believe this :) and that you would appreciate this.
I think discussion helps us to get everything as close to perfect as possible.

Reserving Vileplume and Roserade if that´s fine.

EDIT: first draft so spell check and getting it shorter will be done later, Vileplume will follow tomorrow if that´s ok

Roserade

Availability:
It is an uncommon encounter as a Budew on Route 4 and as a Roselia on Route 7. The Shiny Stone for evolving Roselia can be obtained on Route 12 after defeating Korrina.

Stats: As a Budew it is your typical weak Baby Pokemon with a focus on Special Defense.
Roselia and Roserade have high Special Attack to support their good special bulkiness but the physical bulkiness remains low. With the evolution to Roserade it becomes decently fast.

Typing: Grass/Poison is beneficial in XY for resisting the common Fighting and Fairy moves but does leave it open to the common Psychic and Flying type attacks.
Supereffective Ice and Fire type moves occur more commonly in the late game with Fire type moves being mitigated in the rain.
Offensively this typing grants super effective hits on most Fairy, Ground and Rock types and some Grass types but needs coverage for Poison and Steel types.

Movepool: As a Roselia it can learn every grass type draining move and some useful status moves very early, with Giga Drain and Stun Spore being the most noteworthy respectively. Venoshock and Nature Power can be useful TMs to add early on.
As a Roserade it can learn Weather Ball through move relearning in Dendemille Town, which also requires to teach either Rain Dance or Sunny Day, obtainable as TMs in Lumiose City.
This allows to defeat Fire types in the first case or Steel and Ice types in the later case once the respective weather is set up.
The TMs for Dazzling Gleam, Shadow Ball and Sludge Bomb can be useful late game additions.

Major Battles: As one of the few grass types that is faster than Amaura it can defeat Grant´s gym.
Through its typing and movepool it can contribute against some other gyms but always has to watch out for supereffective moves and even powerful unresisted physical moves that many Gym Leaders Pokemon have.
Therefore it will perform poorly against Qlympia and Wulfric.
Against Team Flare it can take on most special attackers with occasional Rain support and Weather Ball and can OHKO Lysandre´s Mega Gyarados with Grass Knot but does not do well against any of the other threats.
Roserade can contribute against Siebold with its Grass STAB and Wikstrom with Sunny Day boosted Weather Ball but has to watch out for supereffective moves from both.
Malva, Drasna and Diantha should be left for other Pokemon on your team as they have many powerful physical or supereffective moves on all their Pokemon, which are either faster than Roserade or too bulky to defeat them.

Additional Comments: Catching a Baby Pokemon grants you 31 IV in at least three stats in XY, so raising Budew can be useful. However, this does require some serious effort because it evolves by happiness and does not contribute much until then, so getting Luxury Balls in Lumiose City to enhance the happiness gain is highly recommended.
Roserade may be geared to support your team with utility moves like Sweet Scent and Stun Spore to contribute to your teams performance outside of battles when its battle performance starts to fall behind in late game.
 
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No, I was saying that splitting tiers would avoid unnecessary discussions, and I would appreciate that. "Pokemon A should not be in S-tier because it is for the amazing stuff like Pokemon B, but Pokemon A loses to this somewhat long section of the game, so Pokemon A should be A-tier instead," is not a discussion we would want if Pokemon A is still good enough to make S-tier. Discussions that get things done (like the recent one about whether Fennekin should be A or S-tier) are fine with me.
 

cant say

twitch.tv/jakecantsay
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DHR-107 whoops I totally forgot to say anything about Eviolite Doublade! In the AC I just said that Doublade is viable so evolution is not necessary... At least it's in there now (thanks IAR)

Anyway I've been putting these off way too long, thanks irl

also where do we get the percentages for wild encounters from? I can only find statements like 'common' and 'rare' from serebii and bulbapedia


Furfrou
Availability:
Route 5 (common in grass, rare in flowers).
Stats: A nice speed stat with OK attack and bulk. Its Fur Coat ability makes it very bulky physically.
Typing: Being Normal means it only has to watch out for Fighting types while it is immune to Ghost type moves. It will have to rely on its coverage moves for super effective hits though.
Movepool: Very shallow level-up movepool with Heabutt being its best STAB move until Return gains power from increased friendship. Dig and Bite give it good coverage but are quite weak. Can be taught Rock Smash and Surf if needed.
Major Battles: Can handily defeat Grant with it's great physical bulk and Rock Smash, stay away from Korrina but after that Furfrou can contribute in every other gym, although it does not excel in any of them. Not excellent at the Elite Four either but can put up a fight against several Pokemon including Malva's Talonflame, Wikstrom's Klefki and Probopass and Siebold's Gyarados if you manage to avoid Intimidate. However Furfrou is nearly deadweight against Diantha.
Additional Comments: It is recommended to stock up on Luxury balls in Lumiose to catch Furfrou in as it will help it grow friendly more quickly which will increase the power of Return, which becomes a powerful move in the early-mid game. Furfrou's usefulness drops off towards the end of the story but is a good Pokemon nonetheless.


Solrock
Availability:
Glittering Cave (3D area), rare
Stats: All are mediocre except for its usable attack stat
Typing: Rock and Psychic typing gives it helpful resistances to Normal, Fire, Poison, Flying and Psychic which make it a good Pokemon to use against Team Flare, watch out for their Dark types though.
Movepool: Solrock has very limited viable options in its movepool. It has access to some great special moves however its special attack stat is quite low. It starts with Rock Throw and Confusion which can be upgraded to Rock Slide and Psychic shortly after. Bulldoze gives good coverage and helps with its speed stat and can be upgraded to Earthquake later in the game. Acrobatics is a great physical option if you get it.
Major Battles: Solrock fails to contribute much in any gym. It can help fight Grant's Amaura but don't bother with Tyrunt, its able to take out one of Korrina's Pokemon with STAB Psychic however it is too weak to sweep, if played cleverly it can take out Clemont's Magneton and perhaps Emolga, can also contribute against Wulfric however all his pokemon have a super effective move against it. At the Elite 4 Solrock can contribute against Malva but stay away from Chandelure, unfortunately that is all it can do as it is weak to the other members and Champion.
Additional Comments: Despite not contributing much in major battles, Solrock is still a very good Pokemon for beating Team Flare's many Fire, Poison and Flying types. It also comes in handy for Sky Battles as it resists Flying moves and can hit back with STAB Rock Slide.

I'll reserve some more later as I'm crazy busy this weekend

690th post hurhurhur
 

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