By the looks of the team and your post, I'll agree. More problems than solutions. I won't add Ferrothorn for the time being. But I am still curious about Gastrodon.
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- Thread starter Mazz
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By the looks of the team and your post, I'll agree. More problems than solutions. I won't add Ferrothorn for the time being. But I am still curious about Gastrodon.
Hi, solid team. As you have already identified, one of the biggest problems with your team is currently Scizor+Rotom-W switchturn teams. There are currently 3 common ways to break this chain:
1. Break through Rotom-W's Volt Switch: there are two ways to accomplish this. One is to bring in Gastrodon, the other is to Protect on Volt Switch and go to a ground type. But the former is prone to HP Grass, and the latter only works against Choiced Rotom.
2. Break through Scizor's lack of recovery: Spikes. That is all. Once you get Stealth Rock and a layer of Spikes up, opposing Scizor are going to think twice about randomly spamming U-Turn, because they lose 25% by doing so. Unfortunately, this strategy gets ruined by Rapid Spin.
3. Lay a trap: This in my opinion the best way. Get in a Pokemon who can shrug off Rotom-W's attacks with ease such as Latias/ Celebi and give them Hidden Power Fire. Rotom-W can't do anything about it, and Scizor will die if it switches in. This is the most proactive way, because you are forcing your opponent to make predictions, which puts much more pressure on them than you.
Therefore, I suggest replacing Latios with a CM HP Fire Latias. It offers the exact same resistances and fulfills most of the same roles as Latios. But it trades instantaneous power for long term power. Trick Room Reuniclus, which Latias does a decent job against, can set up on Heatran and proceed to maul your team. By coming in on the turn Reuniclus sets up, Latias can Calm Mind on turn 1, and Recover on turn 2. Trick Room Reuncilus fails to 2HKO Latias if it is at +1 on the second hit, while Latias can recover back up and proceed to stall out Trick Room. CM Latias also does a better job against sun teams so Heatran does not have to take on all the pressure.
I'm not particularly sure what Gliscor is bringing to the table, as Slowbro is probably the best Terrakion and Conkeldurr counter in the game. Yes, Gliscor is a Ground immune, but you already have Latios for that as well, so this should be non issue. Drop Slowbro's Speed IVs to 19 to ensure Slowbro is always slower than 0 Speed IV Brave Conkeldurr. This means Payback will never double in power and Slowbro will have a much easier time taking hits while striking back with Psychic, healing with Slack Off as necessary. DD Scrafty can currently cause some huge problems, as it can easily set up on Slowbro and proceed with a 6-0. One Pokemon who seems to have been lost in time, but fits almost perfectly with your team is Physical Wall Hippowdon. With Heatran already providing Stealth Rock, Hippowdon can proceed to do what it does best: wall everything. With its immense physical bulk, Hippowdon can easily come in on the Dragon Dance (or Bulk Up for that matter) shrug off a Hi Jump Kick, Roar out Scrafty and heal up with Slack Off. Your team also currently lacks a reliable way to deal with DD Lum Dragonite, who can scare out Heatran with the threat of an Earthquake (it wont give a shit about status since it gets cured by Lum Berry) DD up, and plow your team. Since Heatran already carries Stealth Rock, Hippowdon can finally use this moveslot to run Ice Fang and smack Dragonite with its very underrated Attack. The best part is, DD Lum Dragonite is most dangerous in the sun. However, Hippowdon brings a natural Sandstorm to cancel out both Sun and Multi Scale. Speaking of natural Sandstorm, this gives you a huge advantage during weather wars. Should one of your summoners bite the dust, the other can still get Sand back up. The only asset you lose from Gliscor is its ability to absorb status. But Heatran is already there to absorb Will-O-Wisp and Toxic, while Hippo can absorb Thunder Wave.
In Summary:
GL
Sets:
1. Break through Rotom-W's Volt Switch: there are two ways to accomplish this. One is to bring in Gastrodon, the other is to Protect on Volt Switch and go to a ground type. But the former is prone to HP Grass, and the latter only works against Choiced Rotom.
2. Break through Scizor's lack of recovery: Spikes. That is all. Once you get Stealth Rock and a layer of Spikes up, opposing Scizor are going to think twice about randomly spamming U-Turn, because they lose 25% by doing so. Unfortunately, this strategy gets ruined by Rapid Spin.
3. Lay a trap: This in my opinion the best way. Get in a Pokemon who can shrug off Rotom-W's attacks with ease such as Latias/ Celebi and give them Hidden Power Fire. Rotom-W can't do anything about it, and Scizor will die if it switches in. This is the most proactive way, because you are forcing your opponent to make predictions, which puts much more pressure on them than you.
Therefore, I suggest replacing Latios with a CM HP Fire Latias. It offers the exact same resistances and fulfills most of the same roles as Latios. But it trades instantaneous power for long term power. Trick Room Reuniclus, which Latias does a decent job against, can set up on Heatran and proceed to maul your team. By coming in on the turn Reuniclus sets up, Latias can Calm Mind on turn 1, and Recover on turn 2. Trick Room Reuncilus fails to 2HKO Latias if it is at +1 on the second hit, while Latias can recover back up and proceed to stall out Trick Room. CM Latias also does a better job against sun teams so Heatran does not have to take on all the pressure.
I'm not particularly sure what Gliscor is bringing to the table, as Slowbro is probably the best Terrakion and Conkeldurr counter in the game. Yes, Gliscor is a Ground immune, but you already have Latios for that as well, so this should be non issue. Drop Slowbro's Speed IVs to 19 to ensure Slowbro is always slower than 0 Speed IV Brave Conkeldurr. This means Payback will never double in power and Slowbro will have a much easier time taking hits while striking back with Psychic, healing with Slack Off as necessary. DD Scrafty can currently cause some huge problems, as it can easily set up on Slowbro and proceed with a 6-0. One Pokemon who seems to have been lost in time, but fits almost perfectly with your team is Physical Wall Hippowdon. With Heatran already providing Stealth Rock, Hippowdon can proceed to do what it does best: wall everything. With its immense physical bulk, Hippowdon can easily come in on the Dragon Dance (or Bulk Up for that matter) shrug off a Hi Jump Kick, Roar out Scrafty and heal up with Slack Off. Your team also currently lacks a reliable way to deal with DD Lum Dragonite, who can scare out Heatran with the threat of an Earthquake (it wont give a shit about status since it gets cured by Lum Berry) DD up, and plow your team. Since Heatran already carries Stealth Rock, Hippowdon can finally use this moveslot to run Ice Fang and smack Dragonite with its very underrated Attack. The best part is, DD Lum Dragonite is most dangerous in the sun. However, Hippowdon brings a natural Sandstorm to cancel out both Sun and Multi Scale. Speaking of natural Sandstorm, this gives you a huge advantage during weather wars. Should one of your summoners bite the dust, the other can still get Sand back up. The only asset you lose from Gliscor is its ability to absorb status. But Heatran is already there to absorb Will-O-Wisp and Toxic, while Hippo can absorb Thunder Wave.
In Summary:
CM HP Fire Latias>Specs Latios
pros: break switchturn cores, deal with TR Reuniclus, better vs Sun
cons: much less potent offensively
19 IVs on Slowbro
pros: neuter Conk's Payback power
cons: I guess you'll be outsped by other Slowbro, not that it'll matter much
Dry Hippo>Gliscor
pros: check DD Scrafty, check DD Lum DNite, act as a fantastic physical pivot, a second weather summoner
cons: lose a ground immunity, lose a status absorber
pros: break switchturn cores, deal with TR Reuniclus, better vs Sun
cons: much less potent offensively
19 IVs on Slowbro
pros: neuter Conk's Payback power
cons: I guess you'll be outsped by other Slowbro, not that it'll matter much
Dry Hippo>Gliscor
pros: check DD Scrafty, check DD Lum DNite, act as a fantastic physical pivot, a second weather summoner
cons: lose a ground immunity, lose a status absorber
GL
Sets:
Latias @ Leftovers
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
- Calm Mind
- Dragon Pulse
- Hidden Power Fire
- Recover
Slowbro @ Leftovers
Trait: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA / 19 Speed IVs
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Scald
- Psychic
- Slack Off
- Thunder Wave
Hippowdon @ Leftovers
Trait: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Atk
Impish Nature (+Def, -SpA)
- Earthquake
- Slack Off
- Roar
- Ice Fang
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
- Calm Mind
- Dragon Pulse
- Hidden Power Fire
- Recover
Slowbro @ Leftovers
Trait: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA / 19 Speed IVs
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Scald
- Psychic
- Slack Off
- Thunder Wave
Hippowdon @ Leftovers
Trait: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Atk
Impish Nature (+Def, -SpA)
- Earthquake
- Slack Off
- Roar
- Ice Fang
All in all, I'm in 100% agreeance with the Gastrodon and Latias. Who does Gastrodon replace though? I can't really remove Tyranitar, as he's my best shot at countering Weather, namely Politoed, Lucario is the foundation of the team, Slowbro is my Physical wall, Latios has just been replaced for Latias, gliscor could be the fit, but a Spikes abuser or Hippowdon could be headed there, and Heatran is my Special wall, and Stealth Rock layer. Maybe should I give Hippowdon access to Stealth Rock, and replace Heatran with a Sp.D Ferrothorn for Spikes? My only other concern is the suggestion of Spikes. Where will it come from? Should I have something added instead of Hippowdon that can summon Spikes? Or even a spinner of my own seeing that the resistances to Spikes on the team is slowly dwindling? I'm cool with the ideas, I just need some clarification.
Because Gastrodon is a fairly awful mon that by all rights ought to have lost pretty much all its usage and gone back down to RU the moment Thundurus was banned. It puts very little pressure on rain teams, as they can hit it with Politoed's Toxic on the obvious switch and neuter it, and can also just switch to the Ferrothorn their team will be carrying more often than not. Even if they don't have Toxic on Politoed or a Ferrothorn, it provides very little offensive pressure and is general set-up bait. And have you looked at it's stats?! People use it as a special wall, when it has mere Base 82 Special Defense (though it does have fairly nice HP...). Rotom-W keeps constant pressure up against most rain teams right from the start, and if you use it properly and don't just blindly spam Volt Switch every time, it can really rip things up with its Hydro Pump.
? Why would you need both a Latias and a Gastrodon? One is more than enough to break the switchturn chain. Both are also more than enough as a rain check. When playing against rain teams, the point isn't to have 3 rain checks, its to be able to get a rain check in and stall until you get an opportunity to get your own weather back up. Pick one or the other. I think that the Ground immunity is more important than the Water immunity, which is why I am suggesting Latias. I would advise against getting rid of Heatran just to get Spikes. Heatran is your Volcorona check! Volcorona is probably the #1 Special Sweeper in the current metagame and no team should ever be weak to it. You're not playing stall or anything, so Spikes support isn't mandatory. The only thing I see Ferrothorn adding to the team would be checking Starmie if you don't want Tyranitar taking a hard hit. But if you add Gastrodon, Gastrodon will be more than enough as a Starmie check. Ferrothorn tbh, isn't really needed on your team, although if you want, you could have it in place of Gliscor.
In essence, Gliscor is without a doubt the weak link of the team, and should be replaced. Slowbro just plain does its job better. The core members of your team atm are Tyranitar, Lucario, Heatran, and Slowbro. The last 2 slots could be made into any combination of Latias, Latios, Gastrodon, Hippowdon, or Ferrothorn tbh. No matter which combination you choose, your team will still be weak to something, but each of these combinations (except Latias+Latios) will allow you to check a good portion of the metagame.
As long as Rotom-W is one of the 5 most used Pokemon in the game, Gastrodon will remain in usage. While it has indeed lost its main function in countering Thundurus, it still does a good job against a number of dangerous threats such as Rotom-W, Starmie, Heatran, and Jirachi. I'm not saying Gastrodon should be a top 30 Poke or anything, but just saying, the sea slug still has its uses.
Gengar outspeads and 1hkos your entire team bar gastrodon, who cant touch the disable set and is 2hkod by the life orb set. Not sure how to fix this (maybe scarf tar?), but its quite nasty. Try toxic on heatran for the jellicant problems.
Good team,
But you have too many special walls and powerfull physical attackers such as swords dance hp ice landorus and tangrowth in the sun could cause big problems for your team.
But you have too many special walls and powerfull physical attackers such as swords dance hp ice landorus and tangrowth in the sun could cause big problems for your team.