Pokemon battles: Having fun vs. Winning

[XtrEEmMaShEEn3k2]

Well, I mainly made this topic to attempt to get the discussion guys like Jibaku and Yagami were having off this topic here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47893, which is kind of off-topic in it.

In the topic, several people are arguing whether it's "tactless" of me to have used a team with Baton Pass Mew to become #1 on the Uber ladder. I don't quite know how to best word this first post, but I think that this is a good discussion to have. Sorry, kind of out of it right now. But yeah, what would you say Pokemon teams should be focused on, how much fun you have using it, or winning?

 

[Imran]

IMO Winning = Having Fun. No matter how cheap your strategy is, if it works it works and if you are winning you are having fun. yeah sure novelty is fun every now and then, but at the end of the day i think we are all here to do well and suceed.

People often have problem with things like Para flinch / parafusion, but they shouldn't really. It may lose you one unlucky match, but for the person using that strategy their luck will fail and willnot allow them to reach the highest possible rankings.

 

[Thorns]

I always play to win. I have fun along the way too. People yell at me for using stuff like Skarmbliss and Trick, but I just ignore them. Competitive Pokemon is just that - competitive.

 

[lilyhollow]

The thing is we're all pretty sure that Xtreem isn't the better player, he just uses this team which in the end makes us lose.

I lol'd.

The defination of an Uber (I read that thread) is a pokemon that can set up and sweep with no harm to the team. This BP combo is exactly that.

wow, these just keep coming don't they? You're playing in the "Uber" tier, aren't you? ok.

So what do we deem a combination that sets up with no overall harm to the team? Unfair? Broken? We all knew that this team existed (or I did any way) yet there seems to be an unspoken pact between us to never use this team.

Not anymore?



this thread is terrible (not directed at OP), the answer is blindingly obvious. Even in OU abusing a "cheap" tactic should be considered perfectly legitimate; that's exactly what players like IPL did with Wobbuffet when that was being tested in standard. But we're not even talking about OU here are we? This is the Uber tier, my God are you seriously complaining about this?

 

[MetaNite]

I try to focus on winning by having fun. (not the other way around)

Instead of using bog standards, and lamo tactics, I try to win by using varied teams and by winning with such teams it is quite fun.

For example, winning with a mono team, or UU team. That's fun.

 

[obi]

Everyone is going to say winning, there is not doubt in this. What we're saying that it seems that you're using such a distasteful combo that genuinely has no counter.

Although I doubt the truthfulness of your argument, even if it were true, so what? That's why it's the "uber" tier. It is by definition 'broken'.

The thing is we're all pretty sure that Xtreem isn't the better player, he just uses this team which in the end makes us lose. I'm not sure if a SpecsOgre Water Spout will in the end kill the passed Groudon, but hell if you make it bulky enough no way is it going down without taking down a lot, if not all the team.

Then I guess he is the better player because he's smart enough to use a better team. Unless you're honestly trying to make the argument that team building isn't a skill at all, which I obviously reject. If one person tends to win against another person, I would say that person that wins more is likely the better player, regardless of how they win (or else they just got 'lucky' more). If you're unwilling or unable to counter their strategy, then that means they made the smartest tactical choice in choosing teams.

There is no counter to this monster.

Then why aren't you using it?

As said before, Mew can Rock Polish as you send in your Phazer or Status and you'll get taunted, having to switch out so he can get up THE FIRST swords dance and then have 100% health to get in THE SECOND swords dance. A +4 Attack and +2 Speed Groudon is something that could be considered Broken. The defination of an Uber (I read that thread) is a pokemon that can set up and sweep with no harm to the team. This BP combo is exactly that. EVEN IF you killed the Groudon he could set up more screens and then do the exact same deal to another pokemon in his team.

"He's using this uber Pokemon in the uber tier!"

So what do we deem a combination that sets up with no overall harm to the team? Unfair? Broken? We all knew that this team existed (or I did any way) yet there seems to be an unspoken pact between us to never use this team.

If by unspoken pact you mean playing to lose, then I suppose you may have a case.

 

[TheFourthChaser]

IMO Winning = Having Fun. No matter how cheap your strategy is, if it works it works and if you are winning you are having fun. yeah sure novelty is fun every now and then, but at the end of the day i think we are all here to do well and suceed.

People often have problem with things like Para flinch / parafusion, but they shouldn't really. It may lose you one unlucky match, but for the person using that strategy their luck will fail and willnot allow them to reach the highest possible rankings.

QFT

 

[Markizzle]

Obi i must disagree.

Gen Empoleon is right in saying BP Mew has always existed, but there is an unspoken pact to not use it.

Everyone knows BP Mew is the best team player possible, as Articanus puts it best when I asked him what he thought of BP Mew teams, he said

"Its gay as hell, thats why I use them"

You see, the great battlers have never resorted to BP Mew because that shows you have no skills at all. Maniaclyrasist may have used BP Mew from time to time, but he never depended on it to win. He was great at making other teams, teams that can actually be counter easily.

And by Xtreem using that team, It doesnt make him a better player because he chose to use that team, because anyone could use that team, its just that there is an unspoken pact to avoid it, which I think truly exists.

Theres no way you can explain how for almost the entire duration of Shoddy Battle, which I have not been involved in until about a month or 2 ago, but I have asked some people who have been around for quite a while. Anyways, theres no way you can explain how for a very long period of time, the great uber battlers have built teams and revised them, but never incorporating BP Mew into them.

Then all of a sudden, one person decides to use BP Mew, saying to hell with tradition, I'll just use it because it wins. Now you cant go on the Uber Ladder without running into a BP Mew user at least every few games, which I believe has really detracted from the overall experience, which is ultimately, in response to this threads title, to have fun.

I mean no one is a pro pokemon battler that plays shoddy battle because there are no rewards. There are good battlers and there are bad battlers, but this is one team that no matter how much you win with, it doesnt make you a good battler.

This is also one of the teams that if you were to make an exact clone of it and go up against it, the odds of winning are dead 50-50. As opposed to standard teams, which actually require some thought process/decision making.

 

[gengod]

In the topic, several people are arguing whether it's "tactless" of me to have used a team with Baton Pass Mew to become #1 on the Uber ladder.

Who cares if they think its tactless or not. To be honest, Baton Passing Mew is easy enough to beat in Ubers and if people would think a little it wouldn't be that hard to handle in the first place.

Sorry, kind of out of it right now. But yeah, what would you say Pokemon teams should be focused on, how much fun you have using it, or winning?

Depends on what you want personally. If I want to win a tourney I play to win if i have fun along the way then thats fine. If i'm simply playing to have fun I will make a team that allows me to have fun regardless of if I win or not.

 

[Markizzle]

Who cares if they think its tactless or not. To be honest, Baton Passing Mew is easy enough to beat in Ubers and if people would think a little it wouldn't be that hard to handle in the first place.



Depends on what you want personally. If I want to win a tourney I play to win if i have fun along the way then thats fine. If i'm simply playing to have fun I will make a team that allows me to have fun regardless of if I win or not.

Its easy enough to beat but no one realistically makes teams just to go up against BP Mew teams that will consequently get crushed by other teams.

Because its been dormant for a while, then suddenly exploded, people have not yet accepted that BP Mew is the best team, because it is. They still go by this "unspoken pact" Empoleon refers to, as I doubt people are stupid enough not to realize that BP Mew teams are easy wins, they just choose not to use it.

If you were going into a tourney to play to win, then the only two types of teams that will exist are BP Mew teams and counter-BP Mew teams. Theres simply no room for anything else if thats what it comes down to.

 

[lilyhollow]

Its easy enough to beat but no one realistically makes teams just to go up against BP Mew teams that will consequently get crushed by other teams.

It doesn't even matter how unstoppable this tactic is. If it isn't (which is what's being suggested based on at least you and Maniac) then well I just don't know what to say. If it is then who cares, it's the Uber tier. There are just so many reasons why this thread should not exist.

 

[Jibaku]

I have one question: Just because uber is a banlist, does it mean we have to allow DT/OHKO/no Sleep Clause/no Species Clause/etc?

 

[Great Sage]

If you want to battle for fun, by all means do. Don't tell us about it, as we don't care. If it's not on a banlist, you can use it. Whether you feel guilty about it is up for you and you alone to decide. End of discussion.