Pokemon FireRed and LeafGreen In-Game Tier List

Texas Cloverleaf

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We see it how we see it man. Being first doesn’t mean anything either. I had already called it not being C ages ago, did my test, and holy hell is it not C. Other people have said it isn’t either. I’m not gonna get into a war here with you as no one wants that. We hated it. Plain and simple.
So it seems you did. I do not understand how that is possible, given my experiences. I'm not looking to get into a war either, I've sat back and let people express their opinions without commenting on them to that purpose and I can't understand an E argument.

It's disappointing for me because after so much time spent contributing to these threads it seems there's no longer a place for me here. I've observed a block of people who all seem to espouse the same positions on the same mons across the collection of threads and those opinions seem to get listened to as an apparent majority at the expense of those such as mine.

Perhaps that's your right as the current largest group of contributors, but my voice hasn't felt heard in a long time, and that doesn't feel too great to me. Que sera, sera, I wish you all the best of luck.


Robot from the Future
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Orange Islands
If you have a problem with others views you should probably break down the differences between your runs and Turdterras/DSGs.

From my own theorymon viewpoint it doesn't look good for Aero on the face of things. Coming at Level 5 (When you're realistically looking at mid 30s for your team) and having to save trainers for optimal XP gain (especially when that XP could have gone into your current Mons) requires extraneously careful playing to avoid as many trainers as possible to feed into Aeros slow levelling group. Even with the XP share item (which iirc needs 50 Dex?) It's still going to be slow going.

If there's a trick either has missed, they should probably know about it. Such as Secret Power or a other TM? What is this appropriate investment you mention? Is it grinding it to 35 for Sabrina and putting your progress on hold for however long that takes?

Also: I'll probably make a post later about the latter half of a game I've been playing (I don't remember the first half). Venusaur/Beedrill/Parasect/Flareon/Seaking/Wigglytuff. Not looking good for a few of them.
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Texas Cloverleaf

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If you have a problem with others views you should probably break down the differences between your runs and Turdterras/DSGs.

From my own theorymon viewpoint it doesn't look good for Aero on the face of things. Coming at Level 5 (When you're realistically looking at mid 30s for your team) and having to save trainers for optimal XP gain (especially when that XP could have gone into your current Mons) requires extraneously careful playing to avoid as many trainers as possible to feed into Aeros slow levelling group. Even with the XP share item (which iirc needs 50 Dex?) It's still going to be slow going.

If there's a trick either has missed, they should probably know about it. Such as Secret Power or a other TM? What is this appropriate investment you mention? Is it grinding it to 35 for Sabrina and putting your progress on hold for however long that takes?

Also: I'll probably make a post later about the latter half of a game I've been playing (I don't remember the first half). Venusaur/Beedrill/Parasect/Flareon/Seaking/Wigglytuff. Not looking good for a few of them.
If I had such a problem I'd have said so. My detail has been laid out clearly in the previous thread. But it doesn't matter. It's a matter of philosophy, not mon, and the one which I use to value mons which once was accepted is no longer. I'm no longer willing to fight for it against the opinions of a particular group of people who don't value my perspective.
If I had such a problem I'd have said so. My detail has been laid out clearly in the previous thread. But it doesn't matter. It's a matter of philosophy, not mon, and the one which I use to value mons which once was accepted is no longer. I'm no longer willing to fight for it against the opinions of a particular group of people who don't value my perspective.
I've just read your logs.

A lot of these matchups seem reliant on mashing Ancientpower and hoping for the best. 10% chance on a 5pp move, is this really something to rely on?

Slide flinches, not counting the miss chance, are 30%, which is at least something that you can expect once in a while, but even that is something that I wouldn't rely on, especially for testing purposes.

Your methods relied on excessive RNG, when tested without that crutch, Aero was found lacking.

Ryota Mitarai

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ok so started university so couldn't respond to logs. Anyways, firstly, the following tiering changes have occurred:

Rattata D -> C
Scyther D -> C
Gastly (Trade) B -> A
Gastly (No Trade) C -> B
Kabuto E -> D

Hitmonlee A -> B

Haunter will be left with one asterisk in case someone wants to argue for merging it and Gengar, though this is moreso "I want to be on the safe side", since I doubt they will be merging. Vulpix isn't featured here, since I want to try it out myself before moving it, but so far it does look like D-tier might be underselling it

IMPORTANT EDIT: Hitmonlee is dropping to B-tier for now, but will leave it open for C-tier. I don't mind it and Hitmonchan being the same tier, so it's a matter of other people's preference, but for now, I will play it safe and go with B-tier.

IMPORTANT EDIT 2: I will also lock Doduo to B-tier. Machamp, not yet, till Hitmonlee gets resolved.

Secondly, I started a run a few days ago (cause I was bored) with Jolteon / Venonat (caught as a Venomoth) / Krabby / Poliwag / Tangela. Haven't used Tangela a lot (I last stopped at Sabrina), though it caught up quickly after guzzling down most of the Water trainers. The rest mostly make sense in their tiers, though Krabby has been somewhat meh with its weak Surfs and even its high Attack isn't enough to guarantee a sweep against opponents like Sabrina cause you have no special bulk. Will most post more once I am done with the run.

Regarding Aerodactyl, since it's clear at this point that we aren't reaching a consensus, I will try it out myself in a next run. My next run will act as the final decree for Aerodactyl. Obviously, there's a lot of support for both D-tier and C-tier, so please no bad feelings f I don't agree with your side, because I am ultimately doing what I think is the best for the list. With that said, I think E-tier is too harsh on Aerodactyl, because my idea of E-tier for this list is for stuff that either require an enormous investment to the point it's not worth it whatsoever (think Porygon) or is simply so bad that it cannot perform acceptably for more-or-less the entire game (think Ditto). Chansey, funnily, falls in both categories, per experience. Aerodactyl is slightly close to the first category, but it doesn't seem to require crazy investments beyond tons of experience and the Rock Slid tutor and doesn't seem to be total garbage in its performance.

Anyways, tl;dr I will use Aerodactyl in a next run and will give a final rank for it. Obviously, I will make someone unhappy, so pleaase no bad feelings about this.
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Texas Cloverleaf

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I've just read your logs.

A lot of these matchups seem reliant on mashing Ancientpower and hoping for the best. 10% chance on a 5pp move, is this really something to rely on?

Slide flinches, not counting the miss chance, are 30%, which is at least something that you can expect once in a while, but even that is something that I wouldn't rely on, especially for testing purposes.

Your methods relied on excessive RNG, when tested without that crutch, Aero was found lacking.
This is not true in any respect. At no point did I say Ancientpower was required for a matchup. I mentioned Ancientpower when receiving a boost allowed it to perform above baseline, for example outspeeding Lance's Aerodactyl. Blaine for example mentioned Ancientpower solely because Ponyta did not require Rock Slide to OHKO. Several examples such as Sabrina noted that any move 2HKOed, at which point the AP odds are free money to trivialize the fight. Returning to Lance, I stated the following: "Gyarados can't actually threaten you so you're free to spam Ancientpower for boost procs - 3HKO after Intimidate.", this is a point where the AP odds are a direct benefit in raising Aerodactyl's potential above baseline - in no way is it required for the matchup.

You did not read my logs accurately and your claim that I relied on RNG is false.
This is not true in any respect. At no point did I say Ancientpower was required for a matchup.
Returning to Lance, I stated the following: "Gyarados can't actually threaten you so you're free to spam Ancientpower for boost procs - 3HKO after Intimidate.", this is a point where the AP odds are a direct benefit in raising Aerodactyl's potential above baseline - in no way is it required for the matchup.
From your own linked post in the old thread.

Aerodactyl lv 50: Gyarados can't actually threaten you so you're free to spam Ancientpower for boost procs - 3HKO after Intimidate. Other Aerodactyl obviously outspeeds and kills first unless you get the AP proc.
A dead Aero means you lose that matchup at some point.

But quite frankly, discussing this any further will only derail the thread. I'll wait for Ryota's decision on the matter.

Texas Cloverleaf

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From your own linked post in the old thread.

A dead Aero means you lose that matchup at some point.

But quite frankly, discussing this any further will only derail the thread. I'll wait for Ryota's decision on the matter.
Obviously? That's why Aero was mentioned explicitly as a losing point in that battle's analysis. Let's show the whole post if you're going to attempt to cherrypick something that isn't actually a problem.

Aerodactyl lv 50: Gyarados can't actually threaten you so you're free to spam Ancientpower for boost procs - 3HKO after Intimidate. Other Aerodactyl obviously outspeeds and kills first unless you get the AP proc. Dragonairs are both a 3HKO with Rock Slide but their Outrage ranges under a third so you have the freedom to Full Heal the Thunder Waves. Dragonite just misses the 2HKO due to Sitrus while Outrage 2HKOes in return. Overall, very good matchup considering the level disparity.

Aerodactyl fighting underleveled beats Gyarados freely, loses to a higher leveled version of itself, and beats 1 or 2 Dragonairs depending on move selection. If it receives an Ancientpower boost fighting Gyarados, a 27% chance across three attacks (aka the same odds as a Rock Slide flinch), then it wins the matchup on its own.
If it receives an Ancientpower boost fighting Gyarados, a 27% chance across three attacks (aka the same odds as a Rock Slide flinch), then it wins the matchup on its own.
You see, this is where we differ.

When it comes to tiering, I never count RNG, even if the chances are plausible enough to happen.

If for some reason, I kept AP on Aero, I'd simply reset if I ever got an omniboost. Similarly, I'd retest the matchup if I got a Slide flinch because that's just something that I can't have on demand. I'll understand that it may happen, but since I'm testing, I can't rely on it.

Texas Cloverleaf

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We do differ, I don't think it's at all reasonable to discount the potential chances because those are part of the realities of using the mon. There's always the baseline test with no RNG but when you have something with a high likelihood (30%) of occurring you also mention that because it affects the range of performance the mon can realize. When something performs well at its baseline performance and *also* has RNG benefits that are reasonably likely to occur that's a clear benefit to the mon. And to be clear I test as you do without RNG in every occasion. When I get RNG I do multiple runs for confirmation, but I don't ignore the RNG runs either.

There's no reason to lose Ancientpower either, it's best five moves are Rock Slide, Wing Attack or Fly, Earthquake (contested and not especially needed for the E4), Double-Edge (if Rock Head) or Return or Strength, and Ancientpower. In my test I had no need for Earthquake, so the slot was free.
We do differ, I don't think it's at all reasonable to discount the potential chances because those are part of the realities of using the mon. There's always the baseline test with no RNG but when you have something with a high likelihood (30%) of occurring you also mention that because it affects the range of performance the mon can realize. When something performs well at its baseline performance and *also* has RNG benefits that are reasonably likely to occur that's a clear benefit to the mon. And to be clear I test as you do without RNG in every occasion. When I get RNG I do multiple runs for confirmation, but I don't ignore the RNG runs either.

There's no reason to lose Ancientpower either, it's best five moves are Rock Slide, Wing Attack or Fly, Earthquake (contested and not especially needed for the E4), Double-Edge (if Rock Head) or Return or Strength, and Ancientpower. In my test I had no need for Earthquake, so the slot was free.
I'd argue Steel Wing is more important than AP so you don't automatically fold to any Rock-types in Giovanni's Gym and Victory Road.
Here is the run (I actually used Aerodactyl instead of Omanyte due to posts on the thread) :

Brock (11) : Bubble 2HKOes both, Geodude is outsped and neither it nor Onix can actually hurt so it's obviously an easy win.

Misty (21) : Bite is a range for the 2HKO on both Staryu and Starmie. Regardless of that, Wartortle should win as long as Staryu doesn't use Water Pulse twice as it can take Water Pulse from Staryu and 4 Swift from Starmie. This is a win like 95% of the time if Water Pulse doesn't confuse as Staryu tends to go for Harden.

Surge (25) : Water Pulse 2HKOes Voltorb, OHKOes Pikachu and 3HKOes Raichu (doing like 45%). Voltorb often goes for Screech and never seems to use Shock Wave and Pikachu is outsped so you have no troubles beating them. Raichu is AI reliant but assuming it goes for Double Team and then Shock Wave and Wartortle was hit by SonicBoom, with Torrent and the previous hit, Raichu will get 2HKOed. It's not reliable but Wartortle should have no problem beating Voltorb, Pikachu and can most of the time do 45% to Raichu, which is greta cnsidering the type disadvantage.

Erika (31) : Nop, everything has Stun Spore and Giga Drain 2HKOes while it can't damage.

Koga (36) : Surf OHKOes Koffing, 2HKOes Weezing and is a positive range for the 3HKO on Muk. Thanks to its bulk, Blastoise should be able to win here, barring major unluck.

Sabrina (40) : Kadabra outspeeds but mostly goes for Calm Mind and gets OHKOed by Strength. Mr.Mime is outsped and Strength 2HKOes (use Strength+Surf if it uses Barrier). Venomoth is easily 2HKOed by Surf and can't do much. Alakazam is 2HKOed by Strength. Blastoise should win here as long as Alakazam doesn't use Psychic twice after Mr.Mime uses Psybeam. Blastoise here is able to take Psybeam+ a Calm Mind boosted Psychic.

Blaine (42) : Surf OHKOes everything but Arcanine. Only Rapidash outspeeds but it does paltry damages so Blastoise really has no troubles winning here.

Giovanni (45) : Surf OHKOes everything and only Dugtrio outspeeds. Easy win.

Lorelei (50) : Surf 3HKOes Cloyster. Strength 3HKOes Jynx. Blastoise will beat these two without any troubles. I didn't have Bite for Slowbro nor Brick Break.

Bruno (50) : Beats Onix and one Hitmon, 3HKOing with Surf, while taking hits if necessary.

Agatha (51) : Gengar 1 is 2HKOed by Surf, Golbat is 2HKOed by Ice Beam, Haunter is 2HKOed by Surf and Gengar 3 is a 3HKO. It's luck reliant but Blastoise can claim up to 4 kills. It's better to avoid Arbok because it outspeeds, is only 3HKOed and Sludge Bomb does way too much.

Lance (51) : 2HKOes Aerodactyl, taking well a hit and can dent Dragonite. Otherwise, Blastoise is able to beat both Dragonair, 2HKOing with Ice Beam.

Champion (51) : Beats easily Rhydon and Arcanine, OHKOing and 2HKOing respectively and can beat Pidgeot as Ice Beam is a range for the 2HKO. It's better to avoid the rest.

Brock (9) : It was underleveled but it's obvious Pikachu can't beat Brock

Misty (21) : Thundershock puts Staryu in red, activating the healing ange as it goes for Harden most of the time, so you should beat it without taking damages. Starmie nearly OHKOes with Water Pulse and is only getting 3HKOed by Thundershock. The best Pikachu can do is paralysing it but barring extreme luck it shouldn't win.

Surge (25) : Outspeed and 2HKO Voltorb (use Thundershock+Dig to prevent healing) and OHKO Pikachu. Raichu outspeeds and will spamm Double Team to the point it's impossible to hit. Dig 2HKOes Raichu but between Static, Double Team, using a 2-turn move and getting 2HKOed by Raichu after Voltorb uses Sonic Boom, it's hard to win but still Pikachu puts in work here.

Erika (31) : Thunderbolt 3HKOes Victreebel, even after 2 Giga Drain. It goes for either Stun Spore or Poison Powder first turn and then attack. Tangela gets 2HKOed by Thunderbolt. Realistically, Raichu won't do much here outside of sometimes beating Victreebel with luck and rarely doing damages to Tangela.

Koga (36) : Thunderbolt OHKOes Koffing, 3HKOes Muk and 2HKOes Weezing. The problem is that unlike Blastoise, Raichu is frail and Sludge from Muk nearly 2HKOes it. Regardless, it's a positive matchup because Raichu should be able to beat both Koffing and has good odds to beat Muk.

Sabrina (40) : Raichu outspeeds everything. Strength OHKOes Kadabra, 2HKOes Mr.Mime and Alakazam. Venomoth is 2HKOed by Thunderbolt. It's a mostly good matchup as barring getting hit by Psybeam from Mr.Mime and Psychic from Alakazam, which 2HKOes, Raichu should be able to win.

Blaine (43) : Thunderbolt OHKOes Growlithe and Ponyta, 2HKOes Rapidash and 3HKOes Arcanine. Raichu can only take a Fire Blast, so it will beat Growlithe, Ponyta and Rapidash and will fall to Arcanine, doing 45%.

Giovanni (45) : lol

Lorelei (50) : Thunderbolt 2HKOes every water type. It's as usual AI reliant but assuming Dewgong and Slowbro don't attack, Raichu should beat Dewgong, Cloyster, Slowbro and Lapras. It's pretty good but assuming Dewgong uses either Surf or Ice Beam, Raichu will only claim 2 kills.

Bruno (50) : Nop, fighters are 3HKOed and 2HKOes back.

Agatha (50) : Outspeed and 2HKO Gengar 1. Golbat is a range for the OHKO. Haunter is 2HKOed by Thunderbolt. Gengar 2 outspeeds and 2HKOes while getting 3HKOed.

Lance (51) : OHKOes Gyarados with Thunderbolt. Aerodactyl is 2HKOed by Thunderbolt but Raichu will only beat it if it goes for Ancient Power twice as Ancient Power + Hyper Beam is a 2HKO.

Champion (51) : Beats Pidgeot and Gyarados.

Misty (21) : Mega Punch OHKOes Staryu through Harden. Starmie only 5HKOes with Water Pulse while Mega Punch 2HKOes. You can afford a fe misses and Clefable should have no troubles winning here honestly.

Surge (25) : Mega Punch OHKOes Voltorb and Pikachu (that is outsped) and 2HKOes Raichu (use Pound+Mega Punch). Thanks to its bulk it takes like 5 Shock Wave to ko Clefable so it should have no problems winning here and if you manage to hit Mega Kick it OHKOes Raichu.

Erika (32) : Return 2HKOes everything. Clefable has enormous bulk at this point so Giga Drain barely hurts it and it's really easy to pull a win. It takes like 9 Giga Drain to ko Clefable so barring major unluck, it's a solid win.

Koga (36) : Psychic OHKOes Koffing and 2HKOes Weezing. Muk is dealt with Return + Mega Kick. Thanks to its bulk, Clefable is able to easily take hits so it should have no troubles winning here.

Sabrina (40) : Return OHKOes Kadabra, Mr.Mime and Alakazam and 2HKOes Venomoth. Even Psychic from Alakazam+Psybeam from Mr.Mime and Venomoth won't ko so it's another easy win.

Blaine (42) : Set up 2 Calm Mind on Growlithe, OHKO it. Ponyta doesn't have Roar so it's easy to set up 4 CM on it. From there, Rapidash will be OHKOed and Arcanine is a range. Thanks to Softboiled, it's easy to heal so Clefable has no troubles winning.

Giovanni (45) : Use Calm Mind on Rhyhorn and OHKO it. Nidoqueen then comes and Earthquake is only a 4/5HKO so with Softboiled, it's easy to set up another Calm Mind on it, heal and everything will be OHKOed. Clean win once again.

Lorelei (50) : Use Calm Mind 3 times on Dewgong and OHKO it with Thunderbolt. Cloyster comes and it's incredibly easy to set up 3 Calm Mind against it. At +6, Cloyster, Slowbro and Lapras will ge OHKOed and Jynx is a 2HKOed. Lapras and Jynx outspeed but won't do much anyway and you have Softboiled to heal so that's another win.

Bruno (51) : Nop, just beats Onix.

Agatha (51) : RNG reliant but you can try to set up 3 Calm Mind on Gengar 1 and from there, everything will get OHKOed. It's luck reliant as usual when you're using something slow but Clefable should be able to win as barring Nighmare and Sludge Bomb from Gengar, nothing really threatens you.

Lance (52) : Use Calm Mind and Softboiled on Gyarados as it uses Dragon Rage twice. OHKO it with Thunderbolt. Then, set up on Aerodactyl 2 another Calm Mind, while it can't 2HKO, will most likely trigger Cute Charm and you can heal with Softboiled. From there, everything will get OHKOed and nothing actually threatens you. Clean win once again.

Champion (53) : Pidgeot is annoying due to Sand Attack but Aerial Ace doesn't do too much so you can set up on it and OHKO it at +3. Then, Alakazam comes and it's easy to set up 3 another Calm Mind on it. From there, Alakazam and Arcanine will be 2HKOed and the rest is OHKOed by either Ice Beam or Thunderbolt and Rhydon is outsped. Sand Attack sucks but Clefable still has great odds to win especially considering it really takes nothing, even from Arcanine's Extreme Speed and can heal easilty with Softboiled.

Misty (21) : As I used the traded one, it won't obey but I found my log using the regular one so here it is (it was a run with Nidoran, Goldeen, Magneton, Jigglypuff, Paras and Rattata hence nothing required Mega Punch/Kick) :

Staryu is easily OHKOed by Mega Kick (Dig also OHKOes but it tends to go for Harden all the time). Starmie gets 2HKOed by Mega Kick but 2HKOes with Water Pulse (unlike Nidoqueen that is sometimes 3HKOed) and outspeeds. Not good but still an alright matchup where you beat Staryu and can do half.

Surge (25) : Nidoking has no troubles with 3 Dig.

Erika (32) : traded version disobeys.

Regular version can actually beat Erika assuming a Cheri Berry. Dig 2HKOes Victreebel while it will go for Stun Spore and you have the Cheri Berry for this. Tangela is 2HKOed by Mega Kick and doesn't hurt too much. Vileplume is 2HKOed by Dig+Mega Kick and does around 25%. Barring unluck with paralysis, Nidoking is supposed to win here.

Koga (36) : Surf 2HKOes Koffing, Dig 2HKOes Muk and Surf is close to 3HKOing Weezing. Outside of Koffing using Self-Destruct, nothing really threatens Nidoking. Muk an be annoying with Minimize and Acid Armor but as it can't relly hurt, Nidoking shouldn't have much troubles beating it. It's better to use Surf first on Koffing as it puts in healing range and there won't be a Hyper Potion for the rest of the team. Smokescreen can be annoying but between not getting hurt by Sludge, 2HKOing Koffing, 3/4HKOing Weezing and possibly 2HKOing Muk, Nidoking should be able to win here.

Sabrina (40) : Dig OHKOes Kadabra. Dig+Surf 2HKOes Mr.Mime. Venomoth is 2HKOed by Dig. Alakazam outspeeds and OHKOes with Psychic. Pretty good as Nidoking can beat 3 mons despite the type disadvantage.

Blaine (42) : Pretty much like Raichu, Nidoking can only take a Fire Blast. It outseeds everything, OHKOes Growlithe and Ponyta and 2HKOes Rapidash and Arcanine. Nidoking will fall to the Fire Blast from Arcanine, doing half to it first. Assuming a Fire Blast miss, it's a win here.

Giovanni (46) : Outspeed and OHKOes Rhyhorns and Dugtrio with Surf. Adding to that, you can beat a Nido as you 2HKO with Surf while they can't OHKO wit Earthquake.

Lorelei (50) : Earthquake 2HKOes Dewgong. Thunderbolt is a range on Cloyster. Slowbro is 2HKOed by Thunderbolt or Earthquake+Megahorn. Lapras is 3HKOed. Jynx is OHKOed by Megahorn. It's really AI reliant but in the worst scenario, Nidoking beats Dewgong, Cloyster and Jynx. Assumign Dewgong goes for Safeguard and you get the range on Cloyster, you should beat Slowbro. If adding to that, Slowbro goes for Amnesia (which is actually common) and Lapras goes for Confuse Ray, you can beat the whole team assuming no confusion as Lapras can't OHKO. Really AI reliant but Nidoking actually fares really well despite the type disadvantage.

Bruno (50) : Beat Onix with Surf. Beats Hitmonlee, outspeeding and taking a Mega Kick while 2HKOing with Earthquake. Hitmonchan is feasible as it also gets 2HKOed but you have to be wary of Counter. Alright as Nidoking beats Onix and Hitmonlee reliably.

Agatha (51) : Didn't have Shadow Ball but Nidoking can 2HKO Golbat with Thunderbolt. It can also beat Arbok, 2HKOing with Earthquake but won't always be able to do so if Golbat damaged too much.

Lance (51) : 2HKO Gyarados with Thunderbolt. You can beat Aerodactyl 1v1, 2HKOing with Thunderbolt while taking 2 hits. Alternatively, you can beat both Dragonair as Earthquake 2HKOes and you can take 2 Outrage.

Champion (51) : Thunderbolt 3HKOes Pidgeot as it can't 3HKO back. OHKO Rhydon with Surf. Megahorn bops Exeggutor. Pretty good.

Getting Cubone and then Thick Club was terrible. Despite being a 9% encounter, it took like 10 minutes to find one on 6F. Then, I timed how much time it would take to get the Thick Club and it was 1h38. Afterwards, I could test both itemless and Thick Club on Cubone/Marowak to see the differences. It's obviously way better with this item, especially at route cleaning. Here are the gym performances :

Erika (31) :

With Thick Club : Victreebel tends to go for Giga Drain, doing 2/3 before getting OHKOed by Bonemerang. Vileplume comes next and is outsped and OHKOed by Bonemerang. Then, Tangela is 2HKOed by Heabutt but koes back. Great performance as Marowak can take down the 2 most problematic mons, even though Bonemerang is prone to miss.

Without Thick Club : Way worse. Victreebel is 2HKOed and if it goes for Giga Drain first, you can't beat it. Marowak is just going to beat Victrrebel if it goes for either Stun Spore or Poison Powder.

Koga (36) :

Thick Club : Heabutt 2HKOes Koffing. Muk is OHKOed by Bonemerang and Weezing is 3HKOed by Strength. The problem is that between Smokescreen, Self-Destruct and Toxic, sweeping isn't guaranteed. For instance, a first turn Toxic is a loss. Still, Marowak is pretty good here with Thick Club.

Itemless : Way worse. Marowak will only 3HKO Koffing with Strength. Muk is 2HKOed by Bonemerang. Weezing is 6HKOed and will be impossible to get through. Bad matchup.

Sabrina (40) :

Thick Club : Kadabra and Mr.Mime are OHKOed by Strength and Venomoth and Alakazam with Bonemerang. Marowak can barely take a Psybeam from Mr.Mime and a Psychic from Alakazam. Pretty good here and Marowak can pull a win but still can lose if Venmoth attacks or if Bonmerang misses.

Itemless : OHKO Kadabra and Mr.Mime with Bonemerang and Venomoth/Alakazam are 2HKOed. The problem is that you're likely to miss and take multiple hits in this case so it's nearly impossible to pull a win.

Blaine (43) : Not good, Thick Club or not. Everything outspeeds here and Marowak can only take 2 Fire Blast. With Thick Club, Marowak can beat Arcanine, taking a Fire Blast while OHKOing back with Bonemerang.

Giovanni (45) :

Thick Club : Everything is OHKOed by Bonemerang. Rhyhorn are outsped and Marowak can take 3 Earthquake. The only issue is hitting every Bonemerang as otherwise, Earthquake will ko.

Itemless : Rhyhorn 1 is a range and Rhyhorn is 2HKOed by Bonemerang. The rest is OHKOed. Due to this, Marowak is going to fall by Rhyhorn 2 but at least, it beats 4 mons here if it hits.

Lorelei (50) : Thick Club Bonemerang 2HKOes Dewgong, Cloyster and Slowbro. The problem is that Dewgong does 2/3 with Surf/Ice Beam and Cloyster outspeed and assuming Marowak is weaken, will go for Dive. Not really good as Marowak can even struggle to beat Dewgong if it attacks twice. Non Thick Club only 3HKOes Dewgong and will only beat it with luck.

Bruno (50) : Onix are OHKOed by Thick Club Bonemerang. Hitmonchan will then come and get OHKOed. By this time, you'll be too weaken to take another hit. You can also beat Onix and Hitmonlee. Machamp is too bulky, outspeed and OHKO with +1 Cross Chop.

Agatha (50) : I didn't have Rock Slide but regardless, using an unaccurate move against Agatha isn't good. Arbok is OHKOed by TC Earthquake and 2HKOed otherwise, thus Marowak beats it confortably as it's 3HKOed by Iron Tail. The rest will be hard to get through due to the hax involved.

Lance (51) : TC Earthquake OHKOed Dragonair while Outrage 3HKOes. Aero should be beatable with Rock Slide but you can't beat it and both Dragonair. Non-Thick will only beat a Dragonair.

Champion (51) : Beats either Alakazam or Rhydon 1v1, OHKOing with Earthquake. Can't beat both as it can't take Psychic+Earthquake.

Training Aerodactyl is mostly alright. By the first grunt, it got to level 10 and to level 12 with the second one. At level 15, it was able to defeat Machop, taking a hit and 2HKOing with Wing Attack. Afterwards, at level 17, it outspeeds and OHKOes Zubat and could beat easily Koffing by level 25. After clearing, Silph Co, my Aerodactyl was at level 31 and training on Route 15 and Route 14, it could get to level 37 for Sabrina.

Sabrina (37) : Ancient Power OHKOes Kadabra and Venomoth. Mr.Mime and Alakazam get 2HKOed by Wing Attack. Aerodactyl should win here as it can take a Psychic and Mr.Mime mostly goes for Calm Mind.

Blaine (42) : Ancient Power OHKOes Growlithe. Arcanine is 3HKOed by Ancient Power and Rock Slide. Ponyta gets OHKOed by Rock Slide and Rapidash is 2HKOed. Aerodactyl can take 2 Fire Blast from Arcanine and one from Rapidash most of the time but between Rock Slide possible flinch and Ancient Power, it's clearly favoured.

Giovanni (45) : Avoid Rhyhorn (taking them down is easy). Dugtrio is OHKOed by Fly. Nidos are 3HKOed by Wing Attack and they don't threaten at all as they use Normal-type moves so Aero has no troubles defeating them.

Lorelei (50) : Dewgong is 2HKOed by Ancient Power+Rock Slide. Rock Slide 2HKOes Cloyster. Ancient Power OHKOesJynx. Ancient Power + Rock Slide 2HKOes Lapras, not triggering Sitrus Berry. It's heavily AI reliant but as Dewgong barely seems to attack you can beat it, Cloyster, Jynx and even Lapras assuming it goes for Confuse Ray and you manage to it. Pretty weird fight, especially considering Slowbro is sent last but Aerodactyl is pretty good thanks to bad AI, possible flinch and Ancient Power potential boost.

Bruno (50) : Avoid Onix. Fly OHKOes Hitmon. Machamp is AI reliant but gets 2HKOed by Fly so if it doesn't go for Bulk Up you can beat it, as you outspeed after a Rock Tomb and Cross Chop doesn't OHKO.

Agatha (50) : Gengar 1 is 2HKOed by Rock Slide. Golbat is OHKOed. Arbok beats Aero with Iron Tail so avoid it. Haunter is 2HKOed by Wing Attack. Gengar 2 is defeated by Ancient Power+Rock Slide. Aero is excellent here as barring unluck (like Curse from Haunter and Hypnosis) and misses, it should be able to beat 4 mons.

Lance (51) : 2HKOes Gyarados, Dragonite and Aerodactyl with Rock Slide. You can either beat opposite Aero 1v1, as you both 2HKO but you actually outspeed or beat Gyarados + Dragonite. You can actually take Dragon Rage + Outrage and both are 2HKOed by Rock Slide while by switching out, it removes Intimidate. Pretty good here as you can beat the main mon and something else.

Champion (51) : 2HKOed Pidgeot with Rock Slide. Avoid Rhydon. Outspeed and 2HKO Alakazam with Wing Attack+Rock Slide, taking a Psychic. 2HKO Venusaur with Wing Attack + Fly. Aerodactyl is pretty strong here as it beats 3 mons including one of the biggest threat of the team.


This is a clear A-rank and a solid starter. Honestly, this is probably the most straightforward Pokemon I used in this run but it's just so consistent, helping in every major fight outside of Erika. Brock is a clean win and as are Misty, Blaine and Giovanni. Other important fights are great as well and Blastoise has real chance to beat Koga and Sabrina and does a lot against Surge. The Elite 4 was alright and Blastoise contributed to some degrees in every battle. S-rank is out of question because it's not really dominant like Mr.Mime for instance, that just outright wins in most important fights but between availability, easy training (unlike Charmander, you can have the decently powerful Water Pulse early on) and consistency, A-rank is more than fine for it.


Yeah, I feel B-tier is definitely a bit too much for Pikachu and it should go to C-tier. It has the advantages of being avilable early and learning Thunderbolt naturally compared to other Electric-types but has mostly similar performances to them anyway. The early game isn't really good as Pikachu loses to Brock, Misty and Erika, not to mention how hard it is to train due to its fraility before evolving. The Lt. Surge fight is mostly good but even then it requires luck, the contested Dig TM and it's not the most relevant one (as I find it pretty easy honestly). Koga was mostly good but due to the hax involved and poor bulk, it's far from a guaranteed win. Afterwards, Raichu just worked like other Electric-types really (does well against Sabrina, Lorelei and Lance, alright against Blaine and Agatha and bad against the rest). I feel that the early availability and early to mid-game performances doesn't put it above other Electric-types as it was pretty below-average outside of the unreliable Koga. Performance wise, it feels closer to Caterpie than Spearow.


This should go to A-tier I feel. Last time I used this, I used Calm Mind (and Psychic) on something else but just like everything using this move, Clefable is incredibly good. Without needing a single game corner TM, it swept with ease from Misty to Giovanni without any trouble thanks to Return, Calm Mind and Psychic. With the TM Thunderbolt and then Ice Beam for Lance, Clefable is able to beat Lorelei easily, Agatha if RNG doesn't hurt too much, Lance and Champion. A problem with Clefable is that it needs several TMs and move tutors to do well. But, before the league, you don't even need Ice Beam and Thunderbolt. If you have something for Lorelei or Lance, you can choose not to teach either Thunderbolt or Ice beam respectively and still perform extremly well. I really think that between early availability, fast growth rate and dominant performance, Clefable makes up for its TM dependance. To be fair, this run I found that Clefable had a S-rank performance as it won in every major fight outside of Bruno and despite the need of TMs, it wouldn't be out of place in A-rank. It's pretty similar to Nidoking in the sense that they are both available early, performs well and are TM reliant. Really, I recommand trying CM Clefable, it makes it even better and I really think it should be A-tier.


This is fine in A-tier honestly. First off, I'll start by saying it's better not to use the traded version for 2 reasons. With the traded version, you miss the Mega Punch and Mega Kick move tutors and there is the level disobedience hurts against Misty and Erika. With that said, Nidoking was great and incredibly consistent throughout the run. It won easily against Lt. Surge, Erika and has great odds against Koga while the rest was more than fine and it beat 3 mons vs champion. While it's not dominant, Nidoking always contributed in every single major fight to some degrees, even against Lorelei. Between early availability, being easy to train and consistency in every single important battle, its A-tier is more than deserved.


This one can be tricky to rank due to how long it can take to find a Thick Club but I want to say D-tier. I'll start off by saying the "itemless" one should absolutely be D-tier. Honestly, it was pretty bad and wasn't really helpful in important fights outside of Giovanni due to its poor speed, inadequate typing and lack of power. Thick Club version while way better wasn't as good as expected due to the same problems. It clearly improved the matchup against Erika, Koga and Sabrina but even then no gym leader was a 100% win. A big problem with Thick-Club Marowak is that it's pretty unreliable as you rely on AI to secure a win against Sabrina and Koga. Blaine was bad due to its speed and it will only beat the babies despite the type advantage. Giovanni should be a win but even then a single miss ruins this and as Marowak uses unaccurate moves, it's likely to happen at a point. The Elite 4 was extremly lackluster because Marowak even struggles to get past Dewgong+Cloyster against Lorelei, more than the 2 Onix and a Hitmon against Bruno, just Arbok against Agatha and the 2 Dragonair against Lance and a mon vs Champion. I don't think bothering to find Thick Club is worth, it can take lots of time, there is no reliable method and even then it dopesn't perform all that well. I would say it had a C-rank performance with Thick Club and was alright with it but you have to keep in mind it's a rare item you won't easily find so D-tier feels more appropriate for this one.


I still think this should be C-tier when used optimally. The training was mostly alright and I managed to get a level 50 team for the Elite 4, after using Rare Candies. Reading the previous posts, I don't find the backtrack incredibly long as you have Fly to get the Old Amber and while annoying, it doesn't take too much time to get Rock Slide. I feel I had a better experience mostly thanks to Ancient Power. It makes Blaine much more consistent as you don't need to rely on an unaccurate move. Next fights, while Aerodactyl can't outright win, it will contribute a lot and is actually only threaten by the worse Pokemon. Rhyhorn aren't hard to take down against Giovanni and Aerodactyl really has no troubles beating Dugtrio and the nidos against him. The Elite 4 and Champion were pretty good too. While it can't outright sweep, Aero was able to take down up to 4 mons against Lorelei, can possibly beat the 3 fighters against Bruno, beat 4 mons from Agatha, Gyarados+Dragonite against Lance and Pidgeot, Alakazam and Venusaur against Champion. It could be my tiereing philosphy but I believe something that can get 3 kills and only loses to the weakest mon(like seriously it's ridiculously easy to take down Bruno's Onix or Giovanni's Rhyhorn) is great. That's why I don't get the E-rank, it's a mon that's not that hard to train if you plan ahead and has a good to awesome performance in the remaining matchup. With Aero being better than both Kabutops and Omastar, it would be weird to have it a rank below them and it's better perfomance makes me feel C-tier would be adequate for it.

With that done, I wanted to say that Staryu doesn't seem really contested. With Gengar now in A-rank and them being roughly as good (Gengar is available a bit earlier, easier to train and requires less TMs at the cost of not beating Blaine's Arcanine and worse Lorelei and Lance), I don't think they should be in a different tier.

Going to use hide tags to tell what I'm using next :

1) Charmander/Spearow/Zubat/Nidoran-F/Diglett/Dratini

2) Growlithe/Machamp/Voltorb/Haunter/Poliwag/Omanyte

3) Flareon/Hitmonchan/Exeggcute/Lapras/Zapdos

4) Jolteon/Hitmonlee/Psyduck/Krabby/Articuno

5) Slowpoke/Tangela/Shellder/Venonat

I don't see much changes outside of Diglett and maybe Voltorb, Zapdos (tho it requires the Thunderbolt TM asap) and Krabby.

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
not to beat a deadhorse in regards to Aero, but as I said, E-tier feels too harsh to me, so I am not gonna put it there. WIth that said, it being better than Kabuto and Omanyte isn't a good reason to be C-tier, the only thing this statement proves is that it should not be lower than them, which is currently the case (by this logic, either Charmander has to rise to A-tier or Growlithe has to drop to C-tier. I definitely wouldn't vouch for the former and I do not have enough knowledge for the latter to suggest it)

I will start a run with Aerodactyl and Vulpix soonly. I may include other Pokemon if I am particularly curious about something, but no idea what would that be. With that said, I finished my run. Logs are, as always, available per request, but won't include them:

Eevee (Jolteon)
Yeah, this sounds fine in C-tier. Shock Wave was terrible, outside of having some fringe use against Koga, so I had to resort to Thunderbolt. ThunderDance is also available, but that requires two TMs if you don't want to wait for natural Thunder, which comes at the end-game. Electric is resisted fairly often, most notably Erika and Giovanni, but tends to be okay elsewhere. Combined with the need for Thunderbolt immediately in order to not have Shock Wave, C-tier sounds reasonable. If no one contests this in a few days, I may lock it to C-tier, as the previous thread indicates support for its current tier.

Venonat / Venomoth
For the purposes of this nomination, I assume that you are catching it directly as a Venomoth. Venomoth comes at level 32 at the Safari Zone, albeit with a 5% encounter rate. Just TM it Psychic and it's ready for Erika and the various Poisons you will encounter. Teach it Giga Drain for coverage and Sleep Powder to get past some more difficult opponents and you can make it quite usable. In terms of performance, it sweeps Erika and Koga easily, has some use against Sabrina, sweeps Giovanni, and has some use against Bruno and Agatha. C-tier seems fine given the high join level, though I wish its performance was a bit stronger. Will leave this up for discussion if someone wants to provide new opinions for it, but ultimately, I don't have many issues with its current placement

Gonna keep this in C-tier for now, but it's definitely one of the weakest Water-types. Its Surfs aren't very powerful due to its low Special Attack and its non-existant special bulk causes it issues too, such as against Sabrina and Lorelei (in spite of resistance against the latter). It still does the typical stuff Waters do (most notably kill Blaine and Giovanni), but Kingler is a bit worse in that regards. However, I am taking into account its HM utility, as it can run Surf and Strength as part of its main movepool, so it can be both a fighter and provide half of the needed HMs, which ultimately is what can guarantee C-tier. Feel free to discuss it more, I don't think this had much discussion in the old thread.

seems like a C-tier. Does Water stuff, comes with a Med Slow growth rate, but it does require like three TMs to function (Brick Break, Bulk Up, and preferably Ice Beam) and when it needs to set up, it generally has to set up at least three Bulk Ups per fight. It has a slightly higher amount of positive matchups than your typical Water-type, but at the cost of extensive set up, so C-tier seems fine

Yeah, not fully convinced this should be C-tier. Of all matchups, there were like four where it wasn't heavily walled; Sabrina, Giovanni, Lorelei, and Bruno. Against Lorelei, however, you need to lure in Cloyster to actually do much, because everything else can murder you on the spot. Outside of Lorelei, Tangela seems to perform well only against the easier opponents (I mean, Sabrina's AI is just terrible, most Fighting-types sweep her, as a point of comparison), albeit Bruno and Lorelei require around three Growths to be swept, and it coming late doesn't help it either. I won't move it yet, but it's definitely something I would personally do if I wasn't looking for consensus. With that said, from all the late-game Pokemon, Tangela is probs one of the only ones without some significant disadvantage (e.g. low join level) outside of performance and even comes with traded experience, so at least you can train it quickly, though I had to give it most of the Water trainers for it to reach appropriate levels for Sabrina.


as I said, I will do an Aerodactyl run soonly and give it a final verdict. I will be as unbiased as I can be, but since I will make at least one person unhappy with my decision, know that this won't be an easy decision


Going from Zebes's post, I'd like more discussion on the following:

- Pikachu (seems like it's headed towards C, which I would personally agree with, would be happy if it got more support, though)
- Cubone (the only reason I haven't dropped this to D is because I'd like more support just to be on the safe side. It's a great Pokemon if you get Thick Club, but yeah, *if* is a key word)
- Clefairy (I think CM is the way to go as well, it basically becomes a pseudo-Psychic this way if you teach it Psychic as well).

Squirtle and Nidoran-M will most likely get locked to A-tier in a few days if they don't get contested. Don't think they can be S-tier at this point, so anyone wanna argue for B-tier ????
For Aerodactyl, I meant that it's clearly above Kabuto and Omanyte and everything in D really. It had a really strong E4 performance, only matched by the S-rank, Starmie and Slowbro really. I'm looking forward to seeing you using it (and same for Vulpix).

The mons from your un aren't really contested outside of Tangela (and maybe Krabby) but I'll still use them even though even though they seem well-settled. It's also cool to see Squirtle and Nidoran are (hopefully) getting locked, a real progress is made (you do a good job with the thread really).

More tests would be nice on Pikachu, Clefairy and Cubone, especially considering in the previous thread, Clefable was tested without Calm Mind.

With that said, I don't think Thick Club Cubone was great. The only true sweep it had were Sabrina (I mean as Ryota rightfully said, she is incredibly easy most of the time due to her bad AI and Marowak can still miss) and Giovanni (probably the easiest gym leader lol). It couldn't defeat Erika by itself, Koga was heavily AI reliant and Blaine was awkward due to the poor speed. The Elite 4 and Champion were quite frankly bad and outside of Bruno's Onix (which aren't relevant anyway), it would only claim 1 kill per fight. Its poor speed and average special bulk don't help it and Ground isn't the best typing for Kanto. If it came with Thick Club, I feel I'd rank it C-tier as performance wise, it's a bit worse than something like Drowzee. However, getting Thick Club is neither reliable nor quick and honestly, it's so time consuming for an average Pokemon especially when you have many good options available for Erika, Sabrina and Giovanni. More tests would be cool but honestly I was pretty disapointed using it as it was clearly worse than expected.

Current run is making progress and I don't think I'll make any nomination. Charmander is average in mid-game so I'm waiting til the Elite 4 unlike Fearow which is amazing at this point but will probably fall by Blaine. Nidoqueen is weaker than Nidoking and it's going to matter, Golbat is good for Misty and Erika (and from my memories will be for Giovanni) but terrible outside of them and hard to train and Dratini is decent.

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
Okay so since I basically ran with two Pokemon only, I managed to do a quick run with both Aerodactyl and Vulpix. This post will focus more on Aerodactyl, but I will talk about Vulpix too. I will hide them behind tags in case you wanna read about one of them only.

Taking a decision on Aerodactyl wasn't easy, so ultimately, I tried my best to conclude this fairly. I gave consideration to both tiers, but ultimately, after thinking about it, I came to a decision. Read more below:

For the purposes of this run, Aerodactyl had 20 IVs in every stat with a neutral nature. This is the same as every other Pokemon I've run with, bar things with fixed IVs or natures (as far as I am aware of, at least). I didn't track things like EVs or exact stats, because I think that's pretty silly and the last thing I want is to encourage people to go as far as track this when making nominations.

Aerodactyl was grinded to level 35 by VS Seeking with the three Birdkeepers west of Fuchsia. This took some time, as Spearow started to be worthless in terms of experience, but after this, I decided to just unused trainer exp to make the process faster. VS Seeker here might not be the best way to grind Aerodactyl itself, but it certainly has little impact on your team as a whole, so I wanted to explore this way of grinding. Like the above, I didn't track real time spent, because I don't think I am proving anything that isn't obvious already.

Aerodactyl was level matched for every Gym Leader, even though I think this requires a lot of effort to achieve. It reached level 54 at the League and took as much exp as possible, leading it to level 56/57 for the Champion fight.

anyways, here are the logs:

Sabrina(43): Wing Attack puts Alakazam in red and OHKOes the rest. Obviously, I attribute this to me level matching, but I assume Rock Slide can get the OHKOs at a lower level as well.

Blaine(47): -1 APower OHKOes Growlithe. -2 Rock Slide 2HKOes Arcanine on rolls, then OHKOes Ponyta, then 2HKOes Rapidash. Beyond random misses / Fire Blast burns, you shouldn't have tons of difficulties here, as even Fire Blast fails to hit you hard (I think I avoided a 4HKO, didn't really keep a track of this)

Giovanni(50): Steel Wing 2HKOes Rhyhorn. Wing Attack OHKOes Dugtrio and 2HKOes the Nidos. Rhyhorn go for Scary Face, which doesn't really impact you, as you sweep anyways

Lorelei(54): Rock Slide OHKOes Jynx and 2HKOes the rest bar Slowbro. However, you are 2HKOed by super effective moves yourself, so you have to hope that the AI derps and doesn't attack you for long enough that you can KO 4/5 of her team

Bruno(54/55): Steel Wing 3HKOes Onix, which 3HKO back with Iron Tail / Rock Tomb. Hitmonchan lives a Wing Attack and can finish you off with Sky Uppercut if you are damaged enough. Machamp and Aero 2HKO each other, though Machamp may go for Scary Face if you are at full. Hitmonlee dies to Wing Attack

Agatha(55): Rock Slide 2HKOes Gengar #1 and Haunter while OHKOing Golbat on rolls. Gengar #2 is 3HKOed due to berry, so it is very likely to hax you to death. Arbok can 1v1 you, as -1 Rock Slide is a 3HKO and it can OHKO with Iron Tail after a Screech

Lance(56): Rock Slide 2HKOes Gyarados even after Intimidate while taking a mere Dragon Rage. You then outspeed and 2HKO Aerodactyl, though you barely live Ancient Power after taking a Dragon Rage, at which point you won't be able to do much unless you heal offscreen. The rest are 2HKOed by unboosted Rock Slide, only watch out for Thunder Wave.

Blue(56/57): Rock Slide puts Pidgeot in red, only watch out for Sand-attack. Gyarados is 3HKOed due to Intimidate and 2HKOes with Hydro Pump. Arcanine is 3HKOed due to Intimidate as well and weakens you a lot with Flamethrower. Alakazam is 2HKOed by DEdge / Rock Slide, but it sets up Reflect then gets a potion from Blue, so you now 3HKO and it 2HKOes with Psychic, so you need to be healthy enough to take it on. Venusaur is 3HKOed by Wing Attack due to berry, best way to go here is to use Fly on the turn Solar Beam will hit. As a whole, you can most likely beat Pidgeot, Venusaur, then something else of your choice, but that's about it

there are many factors to take into account when deciding its rank. Those are:

1) The late availability. Remember that this comes after Koga, so this means you have beaten most Gym Leaders at this point. This means that it skips around half of the game, if not even more. This also means that you have to skip trainers for it to catch up to your team at some sort of a reasonable pace, otherwise you have to suffer through the grind that I did.

2) The grind. This one overlaps a bit with the previous factor, but a level 5 Pokemon with a Slow growth rate is surely going to be a challenge when being grinded. This means that it will take some time for it to reach appropriate levels, even if it gets some optimal experience. This becomes worse if you haven't skipped trainers for it, which means you have to resort to the VS Seeker to get it on par with your team, whatever its levels may be.

3) Other investment. This requires the Rock Slide tutor and, preferably, the Steel Wing TM. I don't think this is major, as Rock Slide is the closest to "contested" of all the moves and even then, it's not *that* contested, I'd argue the good TMs are more contested anyways. EQ and Double-Edge can also be given, but Aero barely uses them, so don't bother if you need them on something else.

other things to mention

1) Performance. This run proved that Aero does NOT deserve E-tier whatsoever. It was good enough that, like the grind or not, it can do something and have an actual impact in important fights.

2) Speed. This thing requires a lot of Speed debuffs to start getting outsped at like-levels, so this was nice to see too.

3) Omniboosts. Since I suspect I may be asked, no, I did not rely on omniboosts when judging the performance. In fact, I think I got only four omniboosts in the entire game, though I forgot APower at the E4.

Ultimately, my decision is going to be to keep Aerodactyl in D-tier. I found the E4 performance somewhat shaky, because it relied on dumb AI to beat Lorelei, could get significantly haxed against Agatha (since I had no guaranteed OHKOs there) and required healing against Lance if I wanted to get close to a sweep. The Blue KOs were nice, admittedly, on the other hand. Its Gym performance was fine as a whole, but I suspect me inflating its levels improved many rolls I experienced, e.g. me 2HKOing Lapras, which I believe has been mentioned by other people to not have occurred in their experience. One thing I want to mention is that I didn't find this too different from Kabutops; Kabutops was more efficient for Giovanni and Lorelei (unlike Aero, Kabutops doesn't need terrible AI against Lorelei) and had similar contributions in the next fights, bar Bruno, where it kills the Onix instead. Ultimately, Aero's reliable matchups for me tended to be the easier ones (Blaine being the only one that is not in that category) and the more difficult ones weren't 100% reliable.

Logs are available per request, not featuring them, you know the drill

For this run, I decided to evolve immediately and rely on the Flamethrower TM, given this seems to be accepted for Growlithe (so don't see why it would be here either). I decided to try grinding Ninetales with Ember and, admittedly, it was usable. I got it through the Celadon Gym and some other route trainers that fell to Ember. In fact, Ninetales doesn't have many issues against Erika even with Ember, so you can wait a bit for the Flamethrower TM in case you need to invest a GC TM into something else (per experience, if you do everything before Koga, you can have three TMs before him if you try hard enough). After this, Ninetales was okay for Koga, only being bad for Muk, and sweeping Sabrina. Giovanni was a sweep, but relied on Fire Blast. The E4 consisted of it getting KOs, with Agatha being the member that had the biggest amount of Pokemon KOed.

Personally, I feel like this being two tiers below Growlithe is a bit drastic (and yes, I realize Arcanine is much better than Ninetales, discounting the growth rates). It's fine for three Gyms, can even sweep another one, and isn't a total deadweight at the E4, even though it could be better. Flamethrower TM dependency sucks if you wanna evolve immediately, but it can wait a bit for that, if there's a need to.

I will give it a few more days before doing anything with it, but assuming that this goes uncontested, Vulpix will rise to C-tier provisionally. I won't establish it there just yet, as I want to get a third opinion on it before locking it to any tier, but I'd like to move discussion a bit, so will move it for now.

I'd like to move on from Aerodactyl, since it has been discussed to death at this point. If there are any (factual) errors in my analysis, feel free to contact me privately and I will correct it.

here are some changes that will happen in the next few days if uncontested:

- Squirtle and Nidoran-M lock to A-tier
- Vulpix rise to C-tier (no lock)
- Cubone drop to D (I will remove the star to prioritize the other Pokemon, but feel free to bring it up in the future if you wanna argue for C-tier)
Here is the run (just going to mention that I used VS Seeker before the Elite 4) :

Brock (14) : Geodude is 3HKOed by Metal Claw and it becomes a 4HKO assuming it uses Defense Curl. If it attacks, then somehow Onix won't use Rock Tomb and is outsped and 4HKOed by Metal Claw. Cleanly beats Geodude but Onix will most likely beat it most of the time unless it misses Rock Tomb.

Misty (21) : Admitedly, I didn't have Mega Kick/Punch but Charmander has no troubles defeating Staryu. Starmie outspeeds and does a lot with Water Pulse but you can do like 40% with Mega Kick. Alright considering the type disadvantage.

Surge (25) : Dig is a range on Voltorb (which is outsped) and OHKOes Pikachu. Raichu is 2HKOed and Charmeleon can take 2 Shock Wave. It's a bit luck reliant as it depends if Voltorb getsto attack and hitting with Dig as Raichu spams Double Team but Charmeleon fares well here.

Erika (32) : Ember 2HKOes Victreeel and Vileplume and OHKOes Tangela. With a Cheri Berry, it's a clear win as Acid from Vileplume only 6HKoes and even without, Charmeleon is clearly favoured.

Koga (36) : Flamethrower OHKOes Koffing, 2HKOes Weezing and 3HKOes Muk (use Flamethrower+Wing Attack+Flamethrower against it to avoid healing). It's a bit luck reliant for Muk but seeing as how Sludge does average damages, Charizard should win here barring major unluck.

Sabrina (40) : Flamethrower OHKOes Kadabra and Venomoth and 2HKOes Mr.Mime and Alakazam. Seeing that CHarizard outspeeds Alakazam, it's a clear win as it easily takes Psybeam+Psybeam.

Blaine (42) : Flamethrower 2HKOes Growlithe and Ponyta. Rapidash is 3HKOed and doesn't do much back. You easily take the three and will fall to the first Take Down from Arcanine. Pretty good as it beats 3 mons.

Giovanni (45) : Fire Blast OHKOes Rhyhorn. Rhyhorn 2 comes and uses Scary Face so you can go for Sunny Day. From there, Sunny Day Flamethrower will OHKO everything and nothing really threatens you as Rhyhorn is still outsped. I tested several times and it's a win as Rhyhorn very rarely uses Rock Blast.

Lorelei (50) : Flamethrower OHKOes Cloyster and Jynx. Sunny Day Flamethrower+Fire Blast is enough to take down Lapras. The rest is troublesome as Dewgong is 3HKOed and can use Hail and Slowbro can use Yawn or Amnesia. Nice matchup as Charizard beats 3 mons including the best one.

Bruno (50) : Flamethrower 2HKOes Hitmonlee, Hitmonchan and Onixes. Machamp is 2HKOed by Flamethrower+Fire Blast (it doesn't trigger Sitrus Berry this way). The problem is that nearly everything has Rock Tomb. You can beat Onix 1 as you outspeed through Rock Tomb but will fall to the fighting-type. You can beat the 2 Onix as you easily take Rock Tomb+Double Edge but they are always free anyway. Hitmonchan can go for Counter so you can sometimes beat it and something else. Machamp can get beaten 1v1 because you outspeed through speed drop and like Hitmonchan, you can sometimes beat it if it decides to go for Bulk Up. Hitmonlee isn't much troubles and does like 40% with Mega Kick. Not a reallygood matchup as CHarizard can only beat reliably 1 mon most of the time.

Agatha (51) : Time to shine ! Charizard outspeeds everything but Gengar 2. Sunny Day Flamethrower OHKOes Gengar 1 and Golbat while Arbok and Gengar 2 require Fire Blast. Haunter is sent last and is OHKOed by regular Flamethrower. Great matchup as assuming Charizard hits Fire Blast, it should result in a win and even Gengar 2 can't 2HKO with Sludge Bomb.

Lance (51) : Avoid Gyarados as Dragon Claw 4HKOes and it 3HKOes with 2 Dragon Rage and Hyper Beam. Charizard beats both Dragonair as it easily takes 2 Outrage and 2HKOes with Dragon Claw. Dragonite is 4HKOedso you won't beat it.

Champion (51) : Outspeed and 2HKO Pidgeot with Flamethrower. Fire Blast OHKOes Exeggutor. Alakazam is beatable if it ues Psychic+Future Sight which is common as Fire Blast 2HKOes.

Brock (13) : lol no.

Misty (21) : Secret Power OHKOes Staryu and 2HKOes Starmie while you easily take 2 Water Pulse. Clean win barring confusion

Surge (25) : Fearow outspeeds everything. Voltorb and Pikachu are OHKOes by Secret Power while Raichu is 2HKOed. It's another win and the only thing that can prevent it is Static but regardless, Fearow is heavily favoured.

Erika (32) : Fly OHKOes Victreebel and Tangela and is a range on Vileplume. Vileplume can barely touch Fearow, needing like 7 Acid to ko qo Fearow has no troubles beating it.

Koga (36) : Return 2HKOes Koffing and 3HKOes Muk and Weezing. The problem is that between Smokescreen, Sludge, possible Toxic and Muk trolling with Minimize or Acid Armor, Fearow won't be able to pull a win. It should still be able to beat Koffing 1 and Muk a reasonable amount of time. Koffing 2 is also feasible but Weezing will be too much by then.

Sabrina (40) : Perfect matchup. Fearow outspeeds and OHKOes everything, Psychic are OHKOed by Return and Venomoth by Drill Peck.

Blaine (42) : Pretty bad due to Intimidate. Return 2HKOes Growlithe and Ponyta and Fire Blast 2HKOes. Alternatively, if you avoid Growlithe, you can OHKO Ponyta and 2HKO Rapidash, while taking a Fire Blast.

Giovanni (45) : It's better to avoid Rhyhorn as Steel Wing only 3HKOes. Dugtrio is OHKOed by Return and Nidos are 2HKOed. Even if Nidoqueen paralyses with Body Slam, Fearow has the bulk to take 2 Body Slam and 2 Thrash so it should win handily.

Lorelei (50) : Double-Edge 2HKOes Dewgong, which should work if it doesn't use Ice Beam. Double-Edge OHKOes Jynx. It's possible to beat Cloyster as it gets 3HKOed by Double-Edge. Slowbro is 3HKOed and nearly OHKOes with Ice Beam. Lapras is too much. Average performance as it will suicide itself if Dewgong attacks.

Bruno (50) : Avoid Onix as Steel Wing only 3HKOes and Rock Tomb does quite a lot. Drill Peck OHKOes Hitmonchan. Machamp is 2HKOed through Sitrus and Fearow can take a Cross Chop and outspeeds even after Rock Tomb. Bulk up ruins this tho as +1 Cross Chop OHKOes but the AI barely uses it. Hitmonlee is OHKOed by Drill Peck. Pretty good matchup as Fearow should beat the three fighters and Onix are never threatening.

Agatha (51) : Drill Peck OHKOes Gengar 1. Golbat is 2HKOed by Return+Double-Edge. It's better to avoid Arbok due to Intimidate and Sludge Bomb doing a lot. Haunter is easily 2HKOed and either goes for Curse or Hypnosis. Gengar 2 3HKOes while you 3/4HKO yourself. Alright matchup as you beat Gengar 1, Golbat and Haunter easily.

Lance (51) : Only beats the Dragonair as it can take 2 Outrage and 2HKOes with Return. Gyarados 2HKOes with Dragon Rage + Hyper Beam. Aerodactyl 2HKOes with Ancient Power and Dragonite is too bulky.

Champion (51) : Pidgeot is outsped and 2HKOed by Double-Edge if it doesn't use Feather Dance. Avoid Rhydon, Arcanine and Blastoise. Alakazam is outsped and 2HKOed by Return + Double-Edge through Reflect. Psychic OHKOes but somehow it doesn't go for it usually. Exeggutor is 2HKOed by Drill Peck. Alright as it should beat 2 to 3 mons.

Misty (21) : Mega Kick OHKOes Staryu (unlike Nidoking that OHKOes with Mega Punch). Starmie does a bit over half with Water Pulse while taking half from Mega Kick. Alright considering the type disadvantage. I guess with a few more levels (like level 23-24), it would be a win as Nidoqueen could take 2 Water Pulse.

Surge (25) : Use Dig and you're fine.

Erika (32) : Unlike Nidoking, Dig doesn't 2HKO Victreebel so you have to rely on 2 Mega Kick to beat it. Mega Kick 2HKOes Tangela (but sadly Body Slam+ Mega Kick doesn't). Vileplume barely takes 2 Mega Kick hence it will have plenty of time to use Stun Spore. A win is still possible as Giga Drain does like 20% but even then, Nidoqueen is less reliable than Nidoking for this fight as it's more likely to fully para.

Koga (36) : Surf 2HKOes Koffing, Muk is 3HKOed by Dig and Weezing is 4HKOed by Surf. Nidoqueen should beat Koffing and Muk as Sludge does nothing but Weezing will probably be too much by then as Smokescreen and Tackle can easily finish Nidoqueen.

Sabrina (40) : Body Slam OHKOes Kadabra. Body Slam 2HKOes Mr.Mime but sadly misses the 2HKO if it goes for Barrier. Alakazam is sent third and although Nidoqueen barely takes a Psychic, Body Slam only 2HKOes (and you would need to para hit through para as she uses Full Heal to beat it). Venomoth is 3HKOed by Body Slam.

Blaine (42) : Outspeed and OHKO Growlithe and Ponyta with Surf. Rapidash outspeeds and does a third with Fire Blast while getting 2HKOed by Surf. Arcanine is a range for the 2HKO with Surf and will ko with Fire Blast. Alright matchup as you beat 3 mons and do half to the signature mon.

Giovanni (45) : Surf OHKOes Rhyhorn. Dugtrio outspeeds and does around half with Earthquake. Then, Nidoqueen comes, is 2HKOed by Surf and may ko with Earthquake. Nidoking is outsped but Earthquake will ko by then. Pretty good as you beat both Rhyhorn, Dugtrio and sometimes Nidoqueen.

Lorelei (50) : Superpower + Thunderbolt is a range for the 2HKO on Dewgong. Cloyster is 2HKOed by Thunderbolt. Thunderbolt only 3HKOes Slowbro while Surf 2HKOes. Earthquake fails to OHKO Jynx while it outspeeds and 2HKOes with Ice Punch. Lapras is 3/4HKOed and 2HKOes. Pretty bad matchup as beating Dewgong is unreliable and Cloyster is always free.

Bruno (50) : Onix are outsped and OHKOed by Surf. Hitmonlee is 2HKOed by Earthquake while you can take 2 Mega Kick. Hitmonchan is 2HKOed but you have to be wary of Counter. Machamp is tricky to get through as you 4HKO but it has Bulk Up, possible healing and Bulk Up.

Agatha (50) : Didn't have Shadow Ball so not really good... Thunderbolt 2HKOes Golbat. Earthquake 2HKOes Arbok while you can take 2 Iron Tail. Golbat can weaken you to the point Iron Tail will 2HKO.

Lance (50) : Thunderbolt fails to OHKO Gyarados and it outspeeds, dealing 80 damages. Aerodactyl is easy to beat 1v1 as Wing Attack does like 20% and Thunderbolt 3HKOes. At full health, Nidoqueen can beat both Dragonair as it 3HKOes with Earthquake while possibly taking 4 Outrage. Dragonite will easily defeat Nidoqueen.

Champion (51) : Use Thunderbolt to 3HKO Pidgeot and Rhydon will come, so you can OHKO with Surf. Alakazam OHKOes with Psychic. Arcanine 2HKOes with Overheat. Blastoise is impossible to get through. Exeggutor is 3HKOed but can use Sleep Powder and does quite a lot with Giga Drain and Egg Bomb. Nidoqueen should only beat Pidgeot and Rhydon here.

I don't usually do this but I have to mention how painfull it is too grind Zubat until it gets Wing Attack. It really struggles to defeat something other than RIval's Abra by itself and requires switch grinding.

Misty (22) : Wing Attack OHKOes Staryu. Wing Attack+ Astonish+Wing Attack is enough to take down Starmie while you can take 3 Water Pulse. Should be a win unless confusion.

Surge (25) : Outspeed and 3HKO Voltorb with Bite+Astonish+Bite. Pikachu is a range for the OHKO with Wing Attack. Raichu is impossible to get through between Shock Wave 2HKOing, Double Team and Golbat barely damaging it. Considering Voltorb and Pikachu are free all the time, it's a bad matchup.

Erika (32) : Wing Attack OHKOes Victreebel and Tangela. Vileplume is 2HKOed but can't really damage Golbat so that's a clear win.

Koga (36) : Wing Attack 3HKOes Koffing, with the only problem being Self-Destruct. Muk is like 4HKOed but between healing, Minimize and especially Acid Armor, it's not advicable to fight it. Weezing can take up to 6 Wing Attack and between Smokescreen and SLudge doing decent damages will win. Pretty bad as Golbat can only beat both Koffing if they don't go for Self-Destruct.

Sabrina (40) : Wing Attack OHKOes Kadabra and Venomoth and 2HKOes Mr.Mime. Beating them isn't hard but Alakazam outspeeds and OHKOes with Psychic.

Blaine (42) : Wing Attack 3HKOes Growlithe. Golbat will fall to Ponyta as Fire Blast actually hurts.

Giovanni (45) : Giga Drain OHKOes Rhyhorn. Wing Attack + Giga Drain 2HKOes Dugtrio (healing to full health in the process). Wing Attack 3HKOes nidos but Golbat won't be able to beat both as it can't take 2 Body Slam and 2 Thash.

Lorelei (50) : Aside from 3HKOing Cloyster with Giga Drain, Golbat won't do much.

Bruno (50/51) : Giga Drain OHKOes Onix 1 and 2HKOes Onix 2. Hitmonchan is 2HKOed by Wing Attack and you barely take 2 Rock Tomb. Hitmonlee is 2HKOed by Wing Attack and will ko even after a single Rock Tomb with Mega Kick. Machamp is too bulky and outspeeds after Rock Tomb.

Agatha (51) : Gengar 1 is outsped and 3HKOed by Wing Attack and Gengar 2 is 2HKOed. Golbat is a range for the 4HKO and Confuse Ray is bad news. Gengar 2 will overwhelm easily and Intimidate from Arbok is annoying. Golbat will only beat 2 mons usually.

Lance (51) : Dragonair are a range for the 3HKO with Wing Attack and 3HKOes with Outrage. Golbat can potentially beat one if it doesn't get unlucky with paralysis but that's it.

Champion (51) : Golbat even struggles to beat Exeggutor as it 2HKOes with Egg Bomb while Wing Attack only 3HKOes.

I caught a Diglett instead of Dugtrio as otherwise it won't have Magnitude and you can't rely on Dig for the whole game.

Surge (25) : Outspeed and OHKO everything. Magnitude 7 is enough for Raichu.

Erika (32) : Dig fails to 2HKO Victreebel so you have to ressort on Magnitude and you need at least Magnitude 6 +7 to 2HKO it. It always goes for Stun Spoe so with Cheri Berry you can beat it without any trouble. The rest will be troublesome as Tangela and Vileplume are too bulky.

Koga (36) : Only Magnitude 10 OHKOes Muk. Between relying on Magnitude for Muk, Minimize and Acid Armor, it's not even guaranteed to beat it. Koffing and Weezing are too much.

Sabrina (40) : Dugtrio is really reliant on Magnitude here as with Dig Mr.Mime may use Barrier. Slas OHKOes Kadabra. Against Mr.Mime, you need at least Magnitude 8+7 to 2HKO it as it always uses Barrier. Kazam is outsped but requires Magnitude 9 and it OHKOes on rolls with Psychic. Venomoth can even live a Magnitude 10 and does a third with Psybeam. Overall, not good as even Mr.Mime can be hard to get past.

Blaine (42) : Once again, reliant on Magnitude. Magnitude 7 is needed for Growlithe and Ponyta. It's incredibly hard to get past Rapidash, let alone Arcanine.

Giovanni (45) : Back to Magnitude. Magnitude 9 is needed for Rhyhorn and Nidoqueen for the OHKO. Magnitude 7 is enough for Dugtrio and Magnitude 8 for Nidoking. Dugtrio can only take one Earthquake so it's not going to do a lot.

Lorelei (50) : Nop, doesn't even OHKO Jynx and everything is going to OHKO.

Bruno (50) : Can beat one Onix as it takes an Earthquake. Will fall to the second one if the first one used Rock Tomb. Fighting aren't OHKOed and OHKOes back.

Agatha (50) : Rock Slide 4HKOes Gengar 1 so good luck hitting thorugh Double Team. Arbok is 2HKOed by Earthquake and you can take a hit. Haunter is 3HKOed by Rock Slide. Realistically, Dugtrio will only be able to beat Arbok.

Lance (51) : Loses to everything.

Champion (51) : Nop, you lose to everything really.

I got the level 24 Dratini from game corner after defeating Team Rocket and every trainer in Erika gym. I had to sell several uneeded TMs to do so like Roar or Attract. I didn't fight trainers on Route 8 because I wanted to grind with Dratini there. By the way, grinding there was alright as Dratini can defeat most things with Dragon Rage + Twister and Shed Skin is an amazing ability.

Erika (32) : Dragon Rage sadly fails to 2HKO Victreebel by 1 HP. As such, it's better to use 2 Twister and then Dragon Rage for the 3HKO. Dragonair actually outspeeds Victreebel. Shed Skin helps a lot for Victreebel as due to its AI, it will almost always use Stun Spore if it's unpara so you can beat it without raking too many damages. Tangela really does nothing and gets 2HKOed. Vileplume is 3HKOed by Dragon Rage+Twister+Dragon Rage and only 5/6HKOes with Acid so you should beat it. This matchup is a bit weird but between 3HKOing the mons that can damage, outspeeding, their tendancies to use Stun Spore and Shed Skin, Dragonair is clearly favoured here.

Koga (36) : Surf 2HKOes Koffing. Dragon Rage + Twister + 2 Dragon Rage is enough for Muk. 3 Dragon Rage is enough for Weezing. Muk is really hard to get through but Dragonair has great odds at beating both Koffing and Weezing. Shed Skin is clutch here for Toxic.

Sabrina (40) : Outspeed and OHKO Kadabra with Slam. Dragon Rage 2HKOes Mr.Mime. Venomoth is outsped and 3HKOed by Dragon Rage. Alakazam should beat it but if it doesn't go for Psychic (which you live at full health), Slam is a 2HKO so it's possible with bad AI to win.

Blaine (42) : Set up Agility on Growlithe. Surf OHKOes Growlithe and Ponyta. Rapidash is 2HKOed. Arcanine is a range for the 2HKO but seeing as how it nearly always uses Take Down, it should be a fine. Dragonair should sweep here as it has the bulk to take 3 Fire Blast (or 2 Fire Blast + Take Down).

Giovanni (45) : Surf OHKOes Rhyhorn and Dugtrio. Nidos are outsped and 2HKOed. Dugtrio outspeeds and you can only take 2 Earthquake but Dragonair is still able to beat Rhyhorn, Dugtrio and a Nido.

Lorelei (55) : Thunderbolt 2HKOes Dewgong and Slowbro and OHKOes Cloyster. Fly OHKOes Jynx. Lapras is too much. Dragonite actually beats 3 mons as it takes an Ice Beam from either Dewgong or Slowbro and outspeeds Jynx. Assuming Dewgong goes for Safeguard (which often happens), it should result in 3 kills. Awesome considering the type disadvantage.

Bruno (55) : Surf OHKOes Onix. Fly OHKOes Hitmon, which are outsped. Fly 2HKOes Machamp through Bulk Up. Dragonite can even take a +1 Rock Tomb+ Mega Kick+Double-Edge so it has no troubles beating Bruno even in the worse scenario.

Agatha (55/56) : Dragonite outspeeds and 2HKOes Gengar 1 with Dragon Claw. Golbat is 2HKOed by Dragon Claw but outspeeds. Arbok is outsped and 2HKOed by Dragon Claw. Gengar 2 is a range for the 2HKO with Dragon Claw and only 3/4HKOes with Sludge Bomb. Haunter is outsped and OHKOed by Fly if you didn't face Arbok, otherwise Dragon Claw 2HKOes. It's always luck reliant between confusion and Hypnosis but Dragonite has good odds beating at least 4 mons (beating Arbok+Gengar 2 is tricky). With a Full Restore, Dragonite is clearly able to sweep.

Lance (56) : Most impressive performance ! Outspeed and OHKO Gyarados with Thunderbolt and then Dragonair with Dragonair with Dragon Claw. Dragon Claw 2HKOes Dragonite on roll while Outrage fails to OHKO. Aerodactyl 3HKOes with Ancient Power and is 2HKOed by Thunderbolt. Seeing that Dragonite always goes for Safeguard, assuming you get the roll, it's a win, which is incredible and in the worst case, you should be able to beat 4 mons.

Champion (57) : Outspeed and 2HKO Pidgeot with Thunderbolt. Rhydon is OHKOed by Surf. Arcanine is 2HKOed by Surf and doesn't do all that much back. Blastoise is 3HKOed by Thunderbolt. Exeggutor is 2HKOed by Fly. Avoid Alakazam as it 3HKOes while getting 3HKOed due to Reflect. Impressive matchup as Dragonite can beat up to 5 mons (tho it might require healing as you can get overwhelm rather quickly) and 4 mons should be done most of the time.


Charmander is fine in B-rank. While it's extremly strong in certain matchup, it has few issues that prevent it from going to A-tier. Losing to Brock is annoying because unless you're using Mankey, you'll struggle to beat it consistently. Misty is another bad fight, which is crucial as she is one of the most important gym leaders imo. Losing to Lance is also bad because he is probably the most threatening Elite 4 member. I feel the problem with Charizard is that except for Agatha (who is extremly annoying to fight) and Koga it mostly wins against easy gym leaders and lose against the hard ones. Erika is relatively easy and as are Sabrina, Surge and Giovanni while Misty and Lance are way harder and thus more important. Another problem is that before getting Flamethrower, it's rather hard to train because Ember is weak and it could take quite some times. I feel the combination of losing to Brock (which means you have to change your team structure for Brock while you have more freedom with Bulbasaur/Squirtle), Misty, Lance (and Bruno) while being average in most other gyms outside the easy ones and annoying to train before level 34 (buying the TM is feasible but that's clearly a negative especially at this point) makes A-tier a bit too high for Charmander.


This can also stay in B-tier. Fearow is really amazing for the early game, beating Misty, Surge and Erika with ease and then has some struggles, most notably Koga, Blaine, Lorelei and Lance. Honestly, Spearow is rather straightforward but B-rank is perfect for it, it's available immediatly, cleanly sweeps 4 gyms and except for Brock always contributes to some degrees. I don't think it deserves A-tier tho because it loses to Brock, Koga, Blaine, Lorelei and Lance, all important battlesand I expect from an A-tier mon to have fewer than 5 bad matchup. Still, Fearow is pretty good but it seems better with Doduo than Squirtle or Vaporeon for instance.


This one can be tricky to rank but I want to say B-tier. I know we don't tier on comparition but I have to explain why I think this should be B-tier as opposed to Nidoking because they are incredibly similar. The difference in speed and power actually mattered and I found Nidoking more consistent imo. Most matchup were similar but for instance Sabrina was more consistent with Nidoking because it could 2HKO Victreebel with Dig and didn't have to ressort on unaccurate moves. Sabrina was a bit worse because Mr.Mime can actually take 2 Body Slam if it goes for Barrier. Lorelei is significantly worse because Nidoqueen doesn't always 2HKO Dewgong and can waste time against Cloyster as it can only 2HKO. Not OHKOing Jynx while getting outsped is also annoying. I feel the combination of these elements make Nidoqueen a B-tier because while it always helps, it's not as consistent as Nidoking (especially against Lorelei) and is closer performance wise to B-tier than A-tier.


I think this is totally fine in D-tier. Golbat is actually alright for certain gyms (Misty, Erika and Giovanni) but really bad for the rest (outside of Bruno). Against Surge, Golbat actually struggles to event dent Raichu, Koga is bad outside of sometimes taking down Koffing, it gets OHKOed by the signature mon against Sabrina, only beats one mon against Blaine and the Elite 4 was mostly bad. Golbat could only get a ko against Lorelei, beating Onixes and an hitmon against Bruno and at most 2 kills against Agatha while doing nothing to Lance and struggling to even beat Exeggutor against Rival. Another point about Zubat is how hard it is to train. Getting to level 16 is a long task and will require switch grinding and even then, you'll have to wait until level 21 to really be able to level up by yourself quickly. Even in late game, Golbat struggles to do damages with Wing Attack and training in Victory Road isn't easy. All in all, D-tier is good, it's clearly usable and had 3 good matchup and 1 alright but struggles to do something elsewhere and is really hard to train. It's way better than things in E and beats the important Misty but has too many flaws to go above.


This is an easy D-tier. Pretty much like other ground-types, it beats Lt. Surge and that's about it. It's probably better to catch a Diglett because Dugtrio won't have Magnitude and Dig is really weak so you'll not have the level advantage. Speaking of which, Magnitude is really unreliable (I mean just read my logs, I mentionned each time what Magnitude was required to kill a specific target). It's also incredibly annoying to train because it's really frail, not that powerful and you're going to face many Koffing and Flying-types. Not much else to add, just a mostly bad Pokemon outside of beating Surge and relies on Magnitude, it should definitely be in the same tier as Sandhrew.


Probably the most interesting Pokemon of the run and I believe C-tier is fine for it. I'll start by saying that the pre-Dragonite was more than fine as Dragonair was decent. Dragonair beats Erika and Blaine and always pulls its weight in other matchup, for instance beating 3 mons vs Sabrina and 4 against Giovanni, it always had its uses which was great. Training it wasn't too hard thanks to immediate Dragon Rage (Dragon Rage+offensive move 2HKOed most opponents early on) and Surf quickly killed opponents. Dragonite really had an impressive Elite 4 performance and is one of the best thing to use for the league. It can net 3 or 4 kills against Lorelei, despite the type disadvantage, cleanly sweep Bruno, does extremly well against Agatha, potentially winning and its one of the best Lance performance. It beats with ease with Gyarados and Dragonair without losing health. It also beats Dragonite and assuming it doesn't use Outrage first (it never does) and you get the roll, you can beat the whole team. Champion was also great, defeating 4 to 5 mons, which is impressive. Yes, there is an important investment between game corner coins, getting to level 55 and requiring Thunderbolt TM. However, between decent mid-game performance and clearly amazing mid-game performance, Dratini looks fine in C-tier as Dragonite was really that good.

Going to try to finish next runs quickly and I may use Vulpix and Staryu again.

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
Going to try to finish next runs quickly and I may use Vulpix and Staryu again.
Staryu doesn't really need runs with it, as it's moreso a matter of tiering philosophy. I think we can all agree that Starmie more-or-less wins the entre game (bar maybe the last rival fight, where you can take out 3-4 mons anyways) if you TM it all the TMs. I saw some mentions of S-tier in the previous thread and (not sure if it was in the last thread or somewhere else) have seen people saying it should be B-tier due to requiring so many TMs. Per experience, A-tier seems fine, Psychic is the only TM you really want to TM it, as Ice Beam is good only for Lance and TBolt is only for Lorelei; Surf and Psychic cover the rest (excluding rival fights, where you can probably still make some impact anyways). I may start packing it for A-tier, but if someone feels like this really deserves something else, speak up and I can extend its discussion time.

To move this closer to its end, the following tiering changes are happening tomorrow:

- Squirtle and Nidoran-M will be locked to A-tier
- Charmander will be locked to B-tier
- Cubone will drop to D
- Vukpix will provisionally rise to C

if you object to any of those, speak up now

in addition, I have locked Aerodactyl and Omanyte to D-tier. For Omanyte, this means you are free to not bother testing it.

Dratini and Diglett will need more discussion. Nidoran-F will be left for discussion, but I think B-tier is fine, I certainly have felt that it's a tier below Nidoran-M and this is probably when you really want to use the in-game trade one to make up for its flaws. Zubat, likewise, will be left for some discussion, but I have no major objections to it staying in D-tier; I have found that Golbat is somewhat useful, but yeah, the pre-Bite period is *awful*, kind of like Sandshrew and Ekans really; they aren't too bad once you evolve them, but before that, it's like that Thomas the Tank Engine meme where it's literally burning.
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I used Vulpix instead of Omanyte this run. Last time, it seemed to have bad IVs, was overleved against Sabrina due to using Moltres and didn't have Sunny Day. I actually had to use cheats to get Machamp and Growlithe but it didn't have an impact on the run anyway. Also, I used cheats to get TMs to use mons optimically. I still checked money to see how much TMs I could afford (1 before fighting Koga). Here are logs :

Erika (32) : Nop, can just use Self-Destruct to kill something but that's it.

Koga (36) : Thunderbolt OHKOes Koffing, 2HKOes Weezing and fails to 3HKO Muk. Electrode will beat Koffing and Weezing with ease but Muk is going to be troublesome.

Sabrina (40) : Thunderbolt 2HKOes Kadabra and Mr.Mime through Calm Mind as well as Venomoth. Alakazam is a range for the 2HKO and may ko with Psychic if Kadabra used Future Sight. Still, a win is possible and in the worst case, you can always Self-Destruct on Alakazam.

Blaine (43) : Thunderbolt OHKOes Growlithe and 2HKOes Ponyta and Rapidash. You can take a Fire Blast from both Ponyta and Rapidash so you can beat 3 mons and do around 40% to Arcanine.

Giovanni (45) : lol no.

Lorelei (52) : Thunderbolt 2HKOes Dewong and Slowbro, OHKOes Cloyster and 3HKOes Lapras and Jynx. It's Ai reliant but Electrode has no problems taking down Dewgong, Cloyster and Slowbro and Light Screen can help for Lapras as it'll only be a 5HKO with Ice Beam. Electrode can also explode to ko Jynx.

Bruno (53) : Nop, fighters are 3HKOed and 2HKOes.

Agatha (53) : Thunderbolt 2HKOes Gengar 1 and Haunter, is a range on Golbat and 3HKOes Arbok and Gengar 2. It's better to avoid Arbok because it 2HKOes with Sludge Bomb but thanks to its speed, Electrode has the ability to beat the rest if it gets lucky with Hypnosis misses.

Lance (54) : Thunderbolt OHKOes Gyarados and 2HKOes Aerodactyl. Otherwise, Thunderbolt + Explosion 2HKOes Dragonite. Electrode will beat at least 2 mons and 3 assuming Dragonite goes for Safeguard which it sometimes does.

Champion (54) : 2HKOes Pidgeot, OHKOes Gyarados with Thunderbolt. Can use Explosion to OHKO Alakazam.

I actually kept Growlithe until level 31 to get Flame Wheel and then evolved it into Arcanine. Flamethrower wasn't needed for Erika so I learnt it just before Koga.

Erika (32) : Flame Wheel OHKOes Victreebel and Tangela. Vileplume is only 2HKOed (use Bite+Flame Wheel to avoid healing range) but only 10HKOes with Acid anyway. Clean win.

Koga (36) : Flamethrower OHKOes Koffing, 2HKOes Weezing and 3HKOes Muk. Arcanine has no troubles winning as barring Muk and Weezing spamming Sludge and poisoning, it has the bulk to take multiple hits (like 5 Sludge without poison).

Sabrina (40) : Outspeed and OHKO Kadabra with Strength. Mr.Mime is 2HKOed bty Strength. Venomoth is OHKOed by Flamethrower. Alakazam can potentially win if it uses Psychic twice but it never happens and you live Psybeam from Mr.Mime and +1 Psychic from Alakazam.

Blaine (42) : Flamethrower 2HKOes Growlithe and Ponyta. Dig is a 2HKO on Rapidash, which is outsped. You easily take theirs hits but Arcanine is going to overwhelm. Arcanine will do like 45% to opposite Arcanine before falling.

Giovanni (45) : Fire Blast OHKOes Rhyhorn. Set up Sunny Day on Dugtrio as you outspeed. Flamethrower is a range on Nidoqueen but will OHKO Nidoking under sun. Fire Blast under sun OHKOes Rhyhorn. You need to hit 2 to 3 Fire Blast but Arcanine can pull a sweep here.

Lorelei (52) : Avoid Dewgong and Slowbro. Set up Sunny Day on Cloyster and OHKO it with Flamethrower. Lapras falls to Sunny Flamethrower+Fire Blast. Jynx is OHKOed by Fire Blast.

Bruno (52) : Avoid Onix. Flamethrower 2HKOes Hitmon and Sunny Day Flamethrower 2HKOes Machamp. Initmidate is clutch here. You can always beat the 2 hitmon as you have the bulk to take hits and if Machamp goes for Bulk Up, which it almost always does, you can beat it assuming Hitmonchan goes for Sky Uppercut and not Rock Tomb.

Agatha (52) : Outspeed and 2HKO Gengar 1 with Flamethrower. Golbat outspeeds but is 2HKOed by Flamethrower. Haunter is OHKOed by Fire Blast. Arbok is 2HKOed by Flamethrower. Gengar 2 is 2HKOed by Flamethrower+Fire Blast. According to moves, it requires healing but Arcanine beats at least 4 mons here and if you avoid Arbok, you easily beat Gengar 2. Otherwise, it's possible to use Sunny Day but it's much less reliable as you rely on Fire Blast to OHKO things.

Lance (52) : Not good. Can beat both Dagonair as it 3HKOes with Extreme Speed while taking sometimes 4 Outrage but won't do much else.

Champion (52) : 2HKO Pidgeot with Flamethrower + Fire Blast. Flamethrower 2HKOes Venusaur. Extreme Speed 2HKOes Alakazam. Arcanine should beat these 3.

Erika (32) : 3 Flamethrower and you're done.

Koga (36) : Flamethrower OHKOes Koffing, 2HKOes Weezing and 3HKOes Muk. It's better to avoid Muk as Sludge does a lot but stilll i reliably beats 3 things. With Sunny Day, Muk is a range for the 2HKO but you have to be wary of Sludge or Smokescreen from Koffing.

Sabrina (40) : Sunny Day Flamethrower OHKOes Kadabra and Venomoth and 2HKOes Mr.Mime and Alakazam. Ninetales should sweep here as it has the bulk to take Psybeam+Psychic. You just need to use Quick Attack and then FLamethrower on Mr.Mime to avoid healing range.

Blaine (42) : Set up Sunny Day and 2HKO it and Ponyta with Flamethrower. Ponyta surprisingly seems to always use Fire Blast in sun and with Flash Fire, you can beat Rapidash, 2HKOing with Flamethrower. Then, you can do around 40% to Arcanine before falling. Pretty good.

Giovanni (45) : ko first Rhyhorn with something. Set up Sunny Day on Dugtrio as you outspeed and live Earthquake. Sunny Flamethrower OHKOes Dugtrio and Fire Blast will take care of the rest. You stillneed to hit 3 consecutive Fire Blast but Ninetales can surprisingly beat 4 mons.

Lorelei (52) : Avoid Dewgong. Set up Sunny Day on Cloyster and OHKO it wiht Flamethrower. It takes 3 Sunny Flamethrower to beat Lapras. Jynx is OHKOed by Fire Blast. Pretty good as Ninetales should beat 3 mons, including the signature one.

Bruno (52) : Not good. Can only beat a Hitmon with Will-o-Wisp and 2 Flamethrower.

Agatha (52) : Outspeed and range for the 2HKO against Gengar 1 with Flamethrower. Haunter is 2HKOed. Golbat is 2HKOed by Fire Blast. Ninetales should beat these 3 but will fall to repeated hits and can't hope to defeat Gengar 2. Arbok is technically feasible as Will-o-Wisp and 2 Flamethrower is enough for it but that's assuming you didn't get hit too much and don't miss Will-o-Wisp which is pretty unlikely.

Lance (52) : Nop.

Champion (52) : Beats Pidgeot with Will-o-Wisp+ 2 Flamethrower. Outspeed and 2HKO Venusaur with Flamethrower + Fire Blast.

Erika (32) : Brick Break + Revenge 2HKOes Victreebel as it uses Stun Spore. Tangela is OHKOed by Revenge. Vileplume is 2HKOed by Brick Break + Revenge. It's reliant on paralysis but Machamp can easily win here.

Koga (36) : With 2 Bulk Up, Koffing are OHKOed by Strength while Weezing and Muk get 2HKOed (through Acid Armor for Muk). The problem here is clearly longevity. Toxic is going to hurt Machamp a lot in spite of Guts (which allows to set up only 1 Bulk Up) and Smokescreen is an issue. Still, Machamp does quite well here but can't reliably sweep.

Sabrina (40) : Use Bulk Up on Kadabra. At +1, Machamp OHKOes Kadabra, Mr.Mime and Alakazam with Strength and Venomoth with Rock Slide. It's AI reliant but Alakzam somehow always goes for Future Sight and Machamp can live a +1 Psybeam from Mr.Mime + Psybeam fromVenomoth so it's more than fine.

Blaine (42) : Set up one Bulk Up on Growlithe. You beat and Ponyta as you outspeed both but even if you can take a Fire Blast from Rapidash, it's only 2HKOed by Brick Break. Pretty bad as pre-evo are always free.

Giovanni (45) : Use 3 Bulk Up on Rhyhorn as it uses Scary Face and Earthquake twice. From there, Machamp can OHKO Rhyhorn and Dugtrio with Brick Break and OHKO NIdos with Strength. Machamp has the bulk to take every hits and will win even if Nidoqueen poisons. Good sweep.

Lorelei (52) : 2HKO Dewgong with Brick Break. Flee Slowbro. Set up Bulk Up on Cloyster and OHKO it, Jynx and Lapras with Brick Break while having the bulk to take hits.

Bruno (52) : Set up 3 BU on Onix. Brick Break will OHKO everything but Machamp that gets 2HKOed through Bulk Up. Assuming Hitmonchan goes for Counter, it's a win as Machamp has the bulk to take hits from Onix, Hitmonlee and +1 Cross Chop.

Agatha (53) : You can try to set up Bulk Up here and 2HKO Gengar 1and OHKO Golbat and Haunter with Rock Slide but good luck hitting. Arbok has Intimidate and Screech while Gengar 2 is like 4HKOed and will put to sleep. Not a good amtchup and at best Machamp will beat 3 things and most of the time only 1 or 2.

Lance (53) : Machamp can only setup on Dragonair here. +1 Guts Brick Break will OHKO Dragonair and +1 Rock Slide OHKOes Aerodactyl. Dragonite is problematic as it still takes Rock Slide from there and Outrage does a lot. Alright as Machamp beats Dragonair and Aerodactyl with +2 Brick Break and Rock Slide and assuming first Dragonair goes for Thunder Wave will beat both Dragonair and Aerodactyl.

Champion (53) : Only beats Rhydon 1v1, it always goes for Scary Face and Brick Break 2HKOes while you live an Earthquake. The rest is too hard.

Erika (32) : Psychic OHKOes Victreebel and Tangela. It 2HKOes Vileplume but it can't really damage back so that's a solid win.

Koga (36) : Psychic OHKOes Koffing and 2HKOes Muk and Weezing. Easy win as Sludge barely hits.

Sabrina (40) : Shadow Punch OHKOes Kadabra and Mr.Mime and is a range on Alakazam. Psychic OHKOes Venomoth. The AI is bad so a win is possible if Alakazam goes for Future Sight.

Blaine (42) : Pretty bad. Psychic 2HKOes Growlithe, Ponyta and Rapidash ut you can only take a Fire Blast. You can try to ko Rapidash and then use Destiny Bond to take down Arcanine. Still, it's not the best way to do so and there are better options available.

Giovanni (45) : Giga Drain OHKOes Rhyhorn and Dugtrio and Psychic OHKOes Nidoking and is a positive range on Nidoqueen. Nidoqueen can't hit you anyway so that's a solid win.

Lorelei (52) : Thunderbolt 2HKOes Dewgong and Slowbro and OHKOes Cloyster. Lapras is 3HKOed due to Sitrus Berry. Jynx is OHKOed by Shadow Ball. It's AI reliant for Dewgong as if it goes for Hail you beat both it and Slowbro as you can take a Surf. Still petty good as you beat 3 to 4 mons.

Bruno (52) : Giga Drain OHKOes Onix. Psychic 2HKOes fighters (even Machamp through Sitrus Berry). The best thing to do is OHKOing Onix with Giga Drain, avoiding Hitmonchan and koing it with something. Then, you can come on Machamp, 2HKO it with Psychic as it only uses Rock Tomb once, OHKO Onix with Giga Drain as it goes for Earthquake. Then, Hitmonlee outspeeds but goes for Foresight and Haunter barely survives a Mega Kick. Good matchup as Haunter beats 4 mons.

Agatha (52) : Outspeed and 2HKO Gengar with Psychic (it never attacks). Golbat is outsped and 2HKOed. Haunter is OHKOed. Gengar 2 outspeeds and 2HKOes. It's heavily luck reliant but Haunter is clearly able to beat Gengar 1, Golbat and Haunter at least and if Golbat didn't attack and use Confuse Ray, you beat Arbok as well, living an Iron Tail (or assuming it goes for Screech).

Lance (52) : OHKO Gyarados with Thunderbolt. Aero outspeeds and 2HKOes. Haunter can potetially beat a Dragonair as Psychic 2HKOes and if it doesn't attack first turn will be beaten as Outrage is a 2HKO.

Champion (52) : Outspeed and 2HKO Pidgeot. OHKO Rhydon woth Giga Drain. OHKO Gyarados with Thunderbolt. 3HKO Venusaur with Psychic. Assuming Pidgeot doesn't use Aerial Ace, you beat all these 4.

I didn't bother trying Erika with this one as with Arcanine having Flamethrower, I couldn't afford Ice Beam.

Koga (36) : Set up Rain Dance on Koffing. Surf will OHKO KOffing, 3HKO Muk and you'll be able to set up Rain Dance on Koffing 2. From ther,e you can OHKO it and 2HKO Weezing.The problem is that between multiple hits, possible poison, Smokescreen and needing 9 turns, it's hard to win. Alright matchup as you should be able to beat Koffing and Weezing but Muk is a big problem.

Sabrina (40) : Not good. Strength OHKOes Kadabra and 2HKOes Mr.Mime. Strength is a 3HKO on Alakazam but it's better not to fight it anyway although you live a Psychic. Surf 2HKOes Venomoth. Alright as it can beat Kadabra, Mr.Mime and Veomth most of the time.

Blaine (42) : Set up Rain Dance on Growlithe and Surf will OHKO everything. Not much troubles as even though Rapidash outspeeds, Poliwrath clearly has the bulk to take Bounce.

Giovanni (45) : Use Rain Dance on Rhyhorn as it uses Scary Face. You still outspeed it and Surf OHKOes everything while Poliwrath has the bulk to take 3 Earthquake so no troubles winning here.

Lorelei (52) : Brick Break 2HKOes Dewgong. Flee Slowbro. Set up 3 Bulk Up on Cloyster and OHKO everything with Brick Break. Slowbro ruins the sweep but pretty good.

Bruno (52) : Set up 3 Bulk Up on Onix. Brick Break will OHKO Hitmon and Onix. Sadly, from there, Machamp can set up Bulk Up itself and win but still good performance as you beat 4 mons and weaken Machamp.

Agatha (52) : Not good. Surf 3HKOes Gengar 1 but you need to hit. Haunter is 2HKOed but it's better to avoid it due to Hypnosis and Dream Eater. Arbok 3HKOes with Sludge Bomb while getting 3HKOed. Gengar 2 is too much. Golbat is a range for the 2HKO with Ice Beam but does a third with Air Cutter. Will most of the time only beat Gengar 1.

Lance (52) : Can beat both Dragonair if first turn it doesn't attack as Ice Beam 2HKOes while Outrage only 4HKOes.

Champion (52) : Beats Rhydon and Arcanine, OHKOing and 2HKOing with Surf respectively.

To be honest, having done my run, everything is fine in its current tier.


Yeah, this is good in C-tier. It's about just as good as other Electric-type and while slightly worse, they deserve the same tier anyway. It just does Electric-type stuff really. Electrode did well against Sabrina, Lorelei, Agatha and Lance and contributed vs Koga and Blaine. The speed was great and outspeeding everything including Lance's Aerodactyl (unlike Raichu it won't get beaten by Ancient Power + Hyper Beam) and Champion's Alakazam was awesome. Its power was alright as it still managed to OHKO Koffing from Koga and 2HKO Water-types from Lorelei. Explosion is also a great feature and Electrode can take down Alakazam if needed or Lance's Dragonite with Thunderbolt+Explosion. All in all, Electrode does the same things as other electric-types and makes up for its Thunderbolt TM reliance by incredible speed, earlier availability and Explosion.


Growlithe is well-settled in B-tier. You really need the Flamethrower TM but as Flame Wheel is good for Erika, you can afford to buy it just before Koga. From there, Arcanine fares really well and was really consistent outside of Lance. It wins against Erika, Koga, Sabrina and Giovanni (if you manage to hit all Fire Blast) while pulling its weight against Blaine. Lorelei was alright as it beats 3 mons including the most important one, it can sometimes defeat the 3 fighting-types against Bruno and is really strong against Agatha thanks to its power, speed and bulk. Lance was kinda bad but Arcanine can at least sometimes beat both Dragonair which is good considering the type disadvantage. Champion was good as Arcanine can beat Pidgey, Alakazam and the grass-type without any trouble. Really, Arcanine was great throughout the run and B-tier is more than fine for it.


is adequate for it (I really should have used Sunny Day last time). It's clearly a step below Growlithe (can't beat Koga and Giovanni by itself, less good against the Elite 4 and Champion etc.). Still, Ninetales was fine and won against Erika and Sabrina while defeating all but Muk against Koga, beating most of the time 3 mons against Blaine and 4 against Giovanni (assuming it hits Fire Blast). The Elite 4 was kinda average but Ninetales can defeat 2/3 mons against Lorelei, one against Bruno, does quite well against Agatha and beats 2 mons against Champion. Outright winning against 2 gym leaders, having a good performance against 3 and getting some kills in the E4 is fine, especially when outside of Sunny Day, it doesn't require any TM. I believe Vulpix should be locked in C-tier as it has an alright performance and is pretty self-sufficient.


This can stay in B-tier. Machamp has some good matchup like Erika, sometimes Sabrina (she never seems to use Psychic lol), Giovanni and Bruno. Even Koga is alright as it's feasible with luck, you can beat Lorelei outside of Slowbro and potentially 3 mons against Lance. The med slow growth rate is great and training Machamp was really quick. Machamp struggles at certain points (Blaine, Agatha and Champion most notably) but overall has more good matchup. Not much else to say and I don't think this one will get contested. Machamp should win in 4 important battles, potentially beat Koga and beat 4 mons against Lorelei and is easy to train thanks to med slow growth rate, B-tier is good for it.


Likewise, B-tier is good for Haunter. It sweeps Erika, Koga, potentially Sabrina and Giovanni. While it won't outright win, it's really strong for Lorelei where it beats 3/4 mons, Bruno where it can beat up to 4 mons, Agatha thanks to Psychic and Champion where it can beat up to 4 mons. Really, Haunter was great and was only mostly bad against Blaine, where it can only get a kill (2 if you're using Destiny Bond) and Lance where it gets 2 kills most of the time. Adding to that, Med Slow growth rate make it incredible easy to train (I mean it caught up to the rest of the team after Lavender Tower). Really, Haunter was great as it heavily contributed in most matchup while being incredibly easy to train. Thunderbolt is only needed for the E4 and you'll have plenty of money to spare at this time anyway and Psychic is the only contested TM.

With that said, I don't think it should be merged with Gengar. Gengar is better for Sabrina as it OHKOes everything (Haunter needs Alakazam to use Future Sight and get the range with Shadow Punch), Blaine (OHKO Ponyta and Growlithe so Gengar can beat both Rapidash and put a dent on Arcanine), Lorelei (Lapras can get 2HKOed by Thunderbolt here), outright win against Bruno, Agatha (outspeed Gengar 2), Lance (outspeed Gyarados and 2HKO Dragonair) and Champion (outspeed and OHKO Alakazam). Gengar is a bit better and should be one tier above. Still, Haunter is clearly B-tier.


is fine on this one. It does classic water-types stuff like beating Blaine and Giovanni but also has other uses. Like Machamp, it can beat 4 mons vs Lorelei and Onix/Chan vs Bruno. However, the fighting-type hurts it as it struggles against Sabrina and Lance due to the Psychic- and Flying- weaknesses. It also requires several TMs and you'll usually want to have Bulk, Up, Brick Break and Ice Beam. Adding to that, Poliwrath is a bit weak (for instance it fails to OHKO KOffing against Koga and can't 2HKO Gengar 1 against Agatha). All in all, C-tier is adequate for Poliwag, it wins against Blaine, Giovanni and does a lot against Lorelei and Bruno but needs some turns to set up, several TMs and its average special attack means it can't reallt win outside of matchup mentionned previously.


I agree with your sentiment about Staryu, it's really that good and outright wins most of the time. I think the nom for S-rank was MX42 in the last page of previous thread, which I think is a bit too high as it needs several TMs and is in the slow growth rate. Anyway, I hope Staryu will get locked in A-tier as it's really that good.

I'm glad to see tiering changes and I now agree with Vulpix in C-tier.

Dratini might get contested but more input would be cool. The rest I don't think will get contested. Diglett is pretty much like other ground-types, it's good for Surge but struggles against the rest and doesn't have a reliable STAB until Earthquake. Honestly, with the exception of Golem (which really needs to go to C-tier btw, it hard loses to Misty and Erika and is bad for the E4), every ground-type should be D-tier. Zubat will probably be agreed as it's bad outside of Misty, Erika and Giovanni and incredibly hard to train at times. Nidoran-F is a step below Nidoran-M and Spearow struggles against certain gyms (Koga, Blaine, Lorelei) and can't be A-tier due to this.
I know this is a bit of a reach, but has anyone considered the viability of Selfdestruct / Explosion on Golem?

Yes, you faint upon using them, but remember, 400/500 power as it halves Defense in damage calculations.

Geodude gets Selfdestruct at level 21. FRLG Ai is funky sometimes: could you Selfdestruct on Starmie if they derp or use a Super Potion? It would probably make a huge dent. I think the same for Erika's Vileplume, you might outspeed and be able to go boom.

Golem gets Explosion at level 53, and could probably get some decent kills with it.

This might not raise it above C, and yes I know exploding isn't typically considered for these lists, but for mons with quad-effective moves, I can't think of a better option.

Also, while Diglett has many problems, I think D is a little too harsh for it. It has one of the better natural movepools and needs no TMs really. It's been a while since I've used it and I know a lot of things screw it over, but I think you could do a lot worse even with those bad matchups. If I run this game more I will definitely use it to get a modern opinion.
Yep, I used it in my last run with Golem and it actually had uses ! It seems really hard to use against Starmie or even Vileplume as iirc it outspeeds. Self-Destruct/Explosion can be fun against an Hitmon or Lance's Dragonite. It definitely has its uses and heps a bit Golem but from my eperience you can only use it to take a down a single mon from battle. Yes, it improves as you can get a kill as opposed to no one but that still means a rather bad matchup. Still, I feel B-rank is overrating it a lot, heck it's not even among the best in C-tier. Golem loses badly to Misty, Erika and Lorelei and only truly beats Surge. Koga is largely feasible but between Toxic and Smokescreen you can potentially lose, you can't beat Arcanine vs Blaine (which is sent second btw), you only beat either the 2 Onix or 1 Hitmon against Bruno (thanks to Self-Destruct and living hit) and Agatha is going to hax a lot. Really, Golem isn't good, it's way worse than everything in B and while I agree that Self-Destruct/Explosion is cool, it doesn't make it B-tier.

Honestly, having used Diglett recently, I didn't find it worthy of C-tier tbh. The main problem (like other ground-type really) is its lack of reliable STAB until Giovanni which leads to very few good matchup. Magnitude is really unreliable and Diglett/Dugtrio is just going to beat Surge and won't do much outside of this. Erika you can beat Victreebel sometimes but that's it and even then you're reliant on Magnitude as Dig fails to 2HKO. Dugtrio isn't even guaranteed to beat Muk against Koga and does nothing to the rest. Sabrina is really reliant on Magnitude, can screw Dugtrio with Barrier and Alakazam may OHKO with Psychic (assumign Venomoth hits, it's going to ko). Blaine you're once again reliant on Magnitude and even getting past bot Growlithe and Ponyta isn't guaranteed. Giovanni isn't good either due to Magnitude. The Elite 4 was terrible, Jynx isn't even OHKOed by Earthquake and outside of Onix and Arbok (and Alakazam if it somehow goes for Future Sight), Dugtrio isn't going to beat anything.

I agree that Diglett is self-sufficient and needs no TM (the Rock Slide move tutor isn't even THAT needed) but honestly it struggles too much in important matchs and is overall really hard to train with all the Koffing you find in Kanto.

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
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okay so I forgot to update the list yesterday, but anyways, Vulpix has been moved to C-tier but locked to it C-tier as opposed to it being provisional, as it seems to have consensus at this point.

Voltorb, Poliwag, and Haunter will all be locked to their tiers in a few day if unopposed. Growlithe I will probs run with it myself at some point, but since my focus is on USUM right now, I recommend that someone else does it instead. If we get more B-tier nominations, I can conclude it as a consensus from there on.

Machamp will also most likely be locked, I wanna see if anyone else wants Hitmonlee even lower than B. From experience, I'd rather have it in B rather than C, but I am ready to change my mind if people think this thing needs to drop even more.

For Diglett, personally, I don't really mind it in either tier, with that said, things don't look good for it. Yeah, it doesn't need too many TMs, but that doesn't mean a lot when you won't be winning fights. I'd imagine it has some use against Sabrina and Blaine too. Giovanni as well if you get it to level 51. I'd rather we reach consensus on Diglett before I have to vet it myself. Ditto for Golem, no problems with it being C, I just want to have consensus on it (with that said, I don't think booming really helps its case, that's something worth mentioning for a write-up, but beyond that, no).

e: regarding Spearow, I think it should be B-tier too, but I'd ideally like to use it myself or have someone else use it just to be on the safe side, I think it has quite the noticeable flaws that prevent it from being A-tier.
Oh I don’t think booming raises the rock’s tier don’t worry. I was mostly just pointing out going boom is insanely strong.

I think the reason Diglett seems weird to me is the better than average stats being dissonant with actual performance, though maybe it can be D. I’m noticing in Kanto you need a killer type or coverage to succeed a lot. What about the level 29 Dugtrio though? It’s hard to catch and rare but that high level might help.

also it’s easy to forget Dig is 60 BP in Gen 3 lol
Here is the run :

Erika (33) : 3 Flamethrower and it's done.

Koga (36) : Flamethrower OHKOes Koffing, 3HKOes Muk and 2HKOes Weezing. Barring Muk and Weezing attacking all the time it's a win and Flareon can take 2 Sludge from Muk.

Sabrina (42) : Only Kadabra and Alakazam outspeed. Kadabra and Mr.Mime are OHKOed by Return while Venomoth is OHKOed by Flamethrower. Alakazam is 2HKOed by Flamethrower+Return. Easy win as Flareon can even take Future Sight from Kadabra and +1 Psychic from Alakazam.

Blaine (45) : Outspeed and OHKO Growlithe and Ponyta with Dig. Rapidash is 2HKOed by Dig and somehow likes to use Fire Blast. Arcanine takes like 30% from Dig and can't OHKO with Take Down. Assuming Rapidash goes for Fire Blast, you beat Growlithe, Ponyta and Rapidash and can deal 60% to Arcanine before falling, which is great. Even then, in the worst case, Flareon beat 3 mons and Arcanine has taken like 35%.

Giovanni (47) : Fire Blast OHKOes Rhyhorn 1. Flamethrower OHKOes Dugtrio, Fire Blast OHKOes Nidoking and is a range on Nidoqueen. If you try to set up Flamethrower on Nidqueen after killing Dugtrio, you can beat both Nidos and both Rhyhorn. Pretty good considering the type disadvantage.

Lorelei (53) : Sunny Day Flamethrower + Fire Blast 2HKOes Lapras. Shadow Ball OHKOes Jynx. Fire Blast OHKOes Cloyster. Shadow Ball 2HKOes Slowbro. Flareon is decent as it takes down 3 to 4 mons according to AI (Slowbro may use Yawn or Amnesia).

Bruno (53) : Flamethrower 2HKOes Onix while you can take Rock Tomb + Earthquake. Doesn't beat something else.

Agatha (53) : Shadow Ball OHKOes Gengar 1 and Haunter and 2HKOes Gengar 2. Flamethrower 2HKOes Golbat and Arbok. In the worst case, Flareon beats the 2 Gengar and Haunter and assuming Golbat goes for Confuse Ray and Air Cutter, you can beat 4 mons as it takes Air Cutter +2 Sludge Bomb. Flareon also beats Arbok 1v1 if needed. Strong showing and with healing, Flareon can win by itself.

Lance (53) : Beat both Dragonair if they don't attack every turn (i.e they use Safeguard or Thunder Wave).

Champion (53) : 2HKO Pidgeot with Flamethrower + Fire Blast. OHKO Alakazam with Shadow Ball, with Psychic doing half. Flamethrower 2HKOes Venusaur. It's AI reliant but if Pidgeot doesn't attack you beat the three.

Erika (33) : Hitmonchan needs 3 Bulk Up to OHKO Victreebel and Victreebel with Strength. With a Cherri Berry, you can take a Stun Spore but you're reliant on not getting para to win. A single paralysis ruins the strategy as Hitmonchan won't be able to take repeated hits.

Koga (36) : Not really good. It needs 3 Bulk Up to OHKO Koffing. Prolem is between Sludge and Toxic, it's not going to last long. Muk is 2HKOed by +3 Strength but can troll with Minimize. Realistically, Hitmonchan will at most beat Koffing 1 and Muk and that's it.

Sabrina (42) : Set up Bulk Up on Kadabra (Reflect doesn't matter as you have Brick Break anyway). +1 Strength OHKOes Mr.Mime and is a range on Alakazam (which as usual never seems to attack) and +1 Rock Slide OHKOes Venomoth. Only Alakazam outspeeds so it can easily be a win thanks to bad AI.

Blaine (45) : Set up 2 Bulk Up on Growlithe. From then, you can OHKO Growlithe, Ponyta and Rapidash (which was surprisingly outsped) and do nearly half to Arcanine before falling to Fire Blast. Pretty good.

Giovanni (47) : Hitmonchan can't outright win as it needs 4 Bulk Up to OHKO Nidoqueen on range with Strength and will fall to repeated hits due to this. It can still beat 4 member of the team but won't outright win sadly.

Lorelei (53) : 2HKO Dewgong with Brick Break. Flee Slowbro. Set up 2 Bulk Up against Cloyster and outspeed and OHKO everything with Brick Break.

Bruno (53) : Set up 3 Bulk Up against Onix as it uses Rock Tomb and Earthquake. From then, you can OHKO Onix 2, Chan and Lee and will fall to Machamp (which outspeeds after Rock Tomb speed drop). Pretty good as you beat 4 mon.

Agatha (53) : +1 Rock Slide 2HKOes Gengar but good luck hitting. Golbat barely takes hit. Haunter is outsped but will put asleep. Not good as it's really luck reliant and even then, getting 2 kos is hard.

Lance (53) : Can't set up on Gyarados or Aerodactyl. Brick Break is a range to 2HKO Dragonair (you can't set up as Dragonite comes next and even takes +3 Rock Slide) so with luck you can potentially beat both.

Champion (53) : Nop, doesn't even 2HKO Rhydon with Brick Break while it 2HKOes with Earthquake. Rhydon is sometimes feasible but relies on bad AI.

I tried Erika as Exeggcute because I found it's better to get Sleep Powder at level 37.

Erika (32) : Psychic OHKOes Victreebel and Tangela and Confusion+Psychic 2HKOes Vileplume. Victreebel always goes for Acid, which you take for 40%. Then, you outspeed Vileplume and 2HKOes as it goes for Stun Spore + Acid. Tangela then comes but can't kill with Giga Drain after 2 Acid. With a Cherri Berry, it's an easy win and even without Exeggcute wins as long as it hits the 2 turns while paralysed.

Koga (37) : Psychic OHKOes Koffing and Weezing and 2HKOes Muk. Exeggutor can take a Sludge from Muk so that's an easy win.

Sabrina (42) : Giga Drain + Psychic 2HKOes Kadabra. Psychic OHKOes Venomoth. Mr.Mime is 2HKOed by Giga Drain. Alakazam is 2HKOed by Giga Drain + Leech Seed. It's incredibly easy to win here thanks to SleepSeed even if you run out of Giga Drain PP because nothing really threaten Exeggutor.

Blaine (44) : Outspeed and OHKO Growlithe and Ponyta with Psychic. If you manage to land Sleep Powder twice (due to Full Heal), you can beat Rapidash as it get 2HKOed by Psychic and then fall to Arcanine.

Giovanni (47) : OHKO everything with either Giga Drain or Psychic. No troubles winning here.

Lorelei (53) : OHKOes Cloyster with Psychic and 2HKOes Slowbro with it. For Dewgong and Lapras, Exeggutor can only beat one, taking an Ice Beam from either and 2HKOing and 3HKOing respectively with Giga Drain. Because both outspeed, Sleep Powder will be needed. Exeggutor is alright as it beats 3 mons most of the time despite the type disadvantage.

Bruno (53) : Giga Drain Onix, OHKO the hitmon with Psychic. Onix 2 comes, heal with Giga Drain on it. Use Giga Drain + Psychic to 2HKO Machamp. Clean win from Exeggutor here.

Agatha (53) : Psychic OHKOes everything and Exeggutor has the bulk to take Air Cutter + Sludge Bomb from Gengar 2. Beating 4 mons here (all but Arbok) is largely feasible. It's also possible to beat Gengar 1, Haunter and Arbok (and Golbat assuming it uses Confuse Ray and you don't get confused). Pretty strong showing.

Lance (53) : SleepSeed easily beats Gyarados (Leech Seed heals 32 HP and Leech Seed + 2 Psychic kills Gyarados). While Aerodactyl is feasible, there is too much luck involved so it's not reliable. You can then beat a Dragonair (Sleep Powder isn't reliable here due to Shed Skin).

Champion (53) : Avoid Pidgeot. Outspeed and OHKO Rhydon with Giga Drain. 2HKO Venusaur with Psychic. Beat Gyarados with Sleep Seed (Leech Seed + 2 Psychic is enough for it). Avoid Arcanine. Leech Seed + 2 Giga Drain is enough for Alakazam. Strong showing as it beats 4 mons, including the most threatening one.

Koga (37) : Surf OHKOes Koffing, is a range for the 3HKO on Koffing and 2HKOes Weezing. Lapras is incredibly bulky so barring major luck, it should win here( Sludge from Muk did like 40/149).

Sabrina (42) : Another win for Lapras. Body Slam OHKOes Kadabra. Lapras surprisingly outspeed both Mr.Mime and Venomoth which are 2HKOed by Surf (use Surf+Body Slam if Mr.Mime uses Calm Mind). Body Slam 2HKOes Alakazam and Lapras doesn't even take half from +1 Psychic.

Blaine (45) : Set up Rain Dance on Growlithe and OHKO everything with Surf (Arcanine is a range otherwise). Only Rapidash outspeeds and Arcanine is a speed tie. Another clear win.

Giovanni (47) : 5 Surf and it's done.

Lorelei (53) : Thunderbolt OHKOes Cloyster, 2HKOes Dewgong and Slowbro and 3HKOes Lapras through Sitrus Berry. Nothing really threatens Lapras which should win without troubles here.

Bruno (53) : Just beat Onix.

Agatha (53) : Surf 2HKOes Gengar 1. Ice Beam OHKOes Golbat. Arbok is a range for the 2HKO. Gengar 2 is 3HKOed by Surf. Haunter is 2HKOed bt Surf. Really AI reliant but Lapras can easily defeat Gengar, Golbat, Haunter and Gengar 2 most of the time and beats the whole team assuming healing. Lapras is really bulky and that helps a lot as even Arbok can't 3HKO.

Lance (54) : Thunderbolt OHKOes Gyarados. Surf fails to OHKO Aerodactyl and although you can beat it 1v1, it's probably better not to fight it so that you can defeat Dragonite 1v1. Outspeed and OHKO Dragonair with Ice Beam. You easily take Outrage and OHKO Dragonite with Ice Beam. Strong showing as Lapras beats Gyarados, both Dragonair and either Aerodactyl or Dragonite. If you fought Aero and Dragonite went for Safeguard, you beat the whole team but it's not advicable

Champion (54) : 2HKO Pidgeot with Ice Beam. OHKO Rhydon with Surf. Avoid Venusaur. Alakazam 3HKOes and is 3HKOed by Body Slam so avoid it. 2HKO Gyarados with Thunderbolt. 2HKO Arcanine with Surf. Lapras is pretty solid but requires healing to beat Pidgeot, Gyarados and Arcanine as it barely takes 2 Flamethrower from Arcanine.

Sabrina (50) : Zapdos outspeeds and OHKOes everything with Drill Peck lol.

Blaine (50) : Outspeed and OHKO Growlithe, Ponyta and Rapidash with Thunderbolt. Arcanine is 2HKOed but doesn't even do half with Fire Blast anyway so Zapdos easily wins.

Giovanni (50) : 2HKO Nidos with Drill Peck and OHKO Dugtrio with it. Even with a first turn poison, Zapdos wins against these 3 and it's not hard to take down Rhyhorn with something else anyway.

Lorelei (53) : Thunderbolt OHKOes Dewgong, Cloyster and Slowbro and 2HKOes Lapras. Jynx is 2HKOed by Drill Peck. Zapdos easily beat the Water-type as Ice Beam from Lapras does 2/3. Assuming Lapras goes for Confuse Ray and you don't get confused, you beat Jynx as well as Zapdos can take an Ice Punch.

Bruno (53) : Drill Peck is a range on Hitmonchan, 2HKOes Machamp and OHKOes Hitmonlee. If Zapdos either gets the range or Machamp decides not to use Rock Tomb, Zapdos wins as it can take Rock Tomb from Hitmonchan and Mega Kick from Hitmonlee while still outspeeding Machamp after speed drop.

Agatha (53) : Outspeed and 2HKO Gengar 1, Golbat and Arbok with Thunderbolt. Haunter is outsped and OHKOed by Thunderbolt. Gengar 2 outspeeds and is 2HKOed by Thunderbolt. Zapdos actually can take 2 Sludge Bomb from Gengar and 1 from Arbok so assuming it doens't get poisonned or put asleep by Hypnosis, it's a win. Really strong matchup.

Lance (54) : Use Agility on Gyarados to outspeed Aerodactyl and use Thunderbolt to OHKO both. Thunderbolt 3HKOes Dragonair so you can beat 1 to 2 of them (assuming first one uses Safeguard and Dragon Rage you beat both) and then fall to Dragonite. Strong showing.

Champion (54) : Outspeed and OHKO Pidgeot with Thunderbolt. Avoid Rhydon, Alakazam (you only 3HKO with Drill Peck somehow). Arcanine is a range for the 2HKO with Thunderbolt and 2HKOes with Flamethrower. 2HKO Venusaur with Drill Peck. OHKO Gyarados with Thunderbolt. Pretty good as it beats 3 mons but not the most relevant one.

Just like yesterday, I feel everything is fine in its current tier.


This looks good in C-tier. It's pretty good as it beats Erika, Koga (barring major unluck), Sabrina and puts a dent on Blaine and Giovanni. Its E4 performance was mostly positive outside of Bruno, as it should beat 3 mons against Lorelei, does a lot against Agatha and the 2 Dragonair against Lance. Champion is nice as it beats the most important threat, Alakazam really quickly as well as the grass-type and sometimes Pidgeot. Not much else to say, Flareon is solid in most matchup, always contribute to some degrees (except against Bruno) and is almost never a deadweight. While it requires 2 TMs (Flamethrower and Shadow Ball), its performance makes up for it and it's a solid mon to pick. Having used Ninetales recently, Flareon is a bit better at the cost of needing Shadow Ball so having them in the same tier makes sense.


This can also stay in C-tier just fine. Hitmonchan was pretty average most of the time. It has greats odds against Sabrina and Giovanni, performs really well against Lorelei (and Bruno) but still had some problems. Erika was pretty troublesome and as were Koga and Blaine. Starting from Agatha, it started becoming a liability as outside of sometimes killing 1/2 mons with luck (even Champion's Rhydon was hard to ko). Having used Hitmonlee, Hitmonchan is clearly a tier below due to inferior speed and power. Machamp is also better thanks to med slow growth rate and beter matchup against Erika, Koga and Bruno most notably. Still, Chan has its uses and doing well against Sabrina, Giovanni, Lorelei and Bruno while getting some kos sometimes is more than enough for C-tier.


This one was really strong but has some flaws that prevents A-tier imo, so B-tier seems fine. Exeggutor was a beast really and it easily won against Erika, Koga, Sabrina, Giovanni, Bruno while being extremly strong against Champion and most other fights (even against Blaine, Exeggutor contributed and could beat 2 to 3 mons according to luck). Performant wise, Exeggutor is pretty close to Gengar I'd say, outright winning most of the time while still being a threat when it doesn't. It has a few issues that makes it B-tier (tho it might have a case for A-tier). First off, it's found in the mid-game which reduces its viability a bit. Slow growth rate is also annoying as it takes away lots of experience from the team. It also needs to train as Exeggcute until level 37 to get Sleep Powder, which can be a bit annoying (especially considering the slow growth rate). Speaking of which, against certain opponents (thinking of Lorelei and Blaine), it needs to rely on Sleep Powder and if it doesn't hit, it's going to get koed. I feel these flaws are a bit too much for A-tier, although Exeggutor is probably together with Zapdos, the strongest Pokemon in B-tier. Another test wouldn't hurt as it could have a case for A-tier in spite of its problems. Anyway, I'd really recommend to try Exeggutor as it's definitely one of the funniest things to use in FRLG.


This is totally fine in B-tier. Despite coming in mid-game at a rather low level, Lapras does a lot. It beats Koga, Sabrina, Blaine, Giovanni and Lorelei with ease and is one of the strongest things to use against Lance (where it beats all but either Aerodactyl or Dragonite). Even outside of these matchup, Lapras was still extremly useful (except for Bruno) and could kill 3 mons most of the time. Another great point about Lapras is that it's pretty self-sufficient, learning Rain Dance and Ice Beam naturally and only needing Thunderbolt for Lorelei and Gyarados from Lance and Champion. Really, Lapras was great, it has the right combination of enormous bulk, adequate speed and good power and while it comes too late (and is in the slow growth rate group) to justify A-tier, it's a solid B-tier for sure.


This one was really great but like Exeggutor, B-tier looks more fitting. Zapdos clean swept Sabrina, Blaine, Giovanni and Bruno outside of the Rock-types, potentially Agatha and was great for the rest. It's really one of the mons with the best overall performance and can win most of the time. However, due to coming late (it misses 5 gyms in Kanto) and needing the Thunderbolt TM, A-tier is a bit too much for it. Another problem is that against certain opponents like Giovanni, Lorelei, Bruno and sometimes Agatha, it doesn't outright win and loses to a single mon (or 2 in the case of Rhyhorn and Onix) and that it could defeat only the weakest Pokemon against Champion (Arcanine and Alakazam are by far the most threatening one). Overall, really strong Pokemon but these small issues means B-tier seems a bit too high for it.


DrumstickGaming : The problem with Level 29 Dugtrio is that it won't have Magnitude. As you said, Dig is weak and being a 2 turn moveis incredibly bad. Not only, it is weak, failing to 2HKO Erika's Victreebel even at level 32 but it's not reliable in major battles. Koga's Muk is going to troll with Minimize or Acid Armor, Sabrina's Mr.Mime is going to use Barrier, it's not strong enough against Blaine and Giovanni is going to ko with Earthquake.

Also, I found that outside of the incredible speed, Dugtrio's stats were pretty lackluster. Its bulk is pretty bad and it's not strong either, failing to OHKO Lorelei's Jynx with Earthquake despite Adamant nature for instance.
Sorry for double post but I finished both runs. I used cheats to get Psyduck and Shellder as well as all the TMs needed. It had no impact on performances tho because I'll penalize TM reliance and Psyduck and Shellder have regular stats. Anyway, here are the run :

Erika (33) : Thunderbolt barely misses the 2HKO on Victreebel, which is going to use Stun Spore and heal with Giga Drain. Tangela is 2HKOed by Thunderbolt. Vileplume will only be a 4HKO with Giga Drain and will beat Jolteon. Not really good as despite a clear level advantage, Jolteon doesn't win.

Koga (37) : Thunderbolt OHKOes Koffing, 2HKOes Weezing and 3HKOes Muk. As long as Muk and Weezing don't use Sludge all the turn (they never do), it's a win.

Sabrina (42) : Thunderbolt OHKOes Kadabra and 2HKOes the rest (even through Calm Mind for Alakazam and Mr.Mime). Jolteon outspeeds everything and can take a few hits so it has no roubles winning.

Blaine (45) : Thunderbolt OHKOes Growlithe and Ponyta and 2HKOes Rapidash and Arcanine. One Fire Blast from the two latter is a range for the 2HKO so Jolteon can sometimes beat both. Pretty good.

Giovanni (47) : lol no

Lorelei (53) : Dewgong and Lapras are 2HKOed by Thunderbolt. Slowbro is a range. Cloyster is OHKOed while Jynx is only 3HKOed. It's really AI reliant but Jolteon should get 3 or 4 kills most of the time here. Pretty good.

Bruno (54) : It's possible to use Thunderbolt+Thunder to 2HKO a fighting-type but that's it and you need to hit.

Agatha (54) : Gengar 1, Arbok and Haunter are 2HKOed by Thunderbolt. Golbat is OHKOed. Gengar 2 is 3HKOed. It depends a lot of AI but Jolteon should have no problems beating Gengar 1, Golbat, Arbok and Haunter. Gengar 2 can put to asleep, potentially threaten to 2HKO while getting 3HKOed so it's not advicable to fight it.

Lance (54) : Outspeeds and OHKOes Gyarados and Aerodactyl.

Champion (54) : 2HKOes Pidgeot and OHKOes Gyarados. Alakazam is 3HKOed and 2HKOes with Psychic and same for Arcanine with Flamethrower.

Erika (33) : You can set up 2 Bulk Up on Victreebel. From there, Strength will OHKO Victreebel and Vileplume and Brick Break will OHKO Tangela. Should be a win.

Koga (37) : Set up 2 Bulk Up on Koffing 1. Strength will OHKO it and 2HKO Muk. Weezing will get 2HKOed by Strength as well but it's going to be troublesome to get past. Pretty bad matchup due to Toxic, Smokescreen and Sludge actually hitting hard even from Koffing. Most of the time, Hitmonlee can beat Muk and both Koffing and will fall to Weezing.

Sabrina (42) : Set up Bulk Up on Kadabra and use Strength (Brick Break if it uses Reflect). Everything will get OHKOed bt Strength from there and you can even take a Psychic from Alakazam. Barring like Future Sight from Kadabra ad Alakazam using Psychic, Hitmonlee should win.

Blaine (45) : Set up 1 Bulk Up on Growlithe. OHKO it and Ponyta with Brick Break. Rapidash is a range for the OHKO with Brick Break so it's better to go for Rock Slide. Then, you can do 2/3 to Arcanine before dying.

Giovanni (47) : Set up 3 Bulk Up on Rhyhorn. From there, you can OHKO Rhyhorn with Brick Break and the rest with Strength while barely taking hits.

Lorelei (53) : 2HKO Dewgong with Brick Break. Flee Slowbro. Set up a Bulk Up on Cloyster and OHKO everything with Brick Break.

Bruno (54) : Avoid Onix. Set up 2 Bulk Up on Hitmonchan as it goes for Rock Tomb and Counter and OHKO it with Brick Break. Machamp is still outsped and mostly goes for Scary Face or Bulk Up and you still 2HKO it. You can take a hit from Hitmonlee and then ko it as well as Onix.

Agatha (54) : Not really good. You outspeed Gengar 1 and can try to set up Bulk Up on it. Rock Slide will 2HKO it and OHKO Golbat at +1. Rock Slide 2HKOes Haunter. The problem is the hax involved and between Double Team, Toxic and Confuse Ray, Hitmonlee won't last long and ill most likely not defeat more than Gengar 1, Golbat and sometimes Haunter. Intimidate from Arbok hurts too much adn Sludge Bomb actually does a lot.

Lance (54) : Just beat the 2 Dragonair, 2HKOing with Brick Break while living 2 Outrage. You can't really set up as it requires 4 Bulk Up to OHKO Dragonite that is coming after Dragonair.

Champion (54) : Nop, can't even beat Rhydon as it OHKOes with Earthquake.

Erika (33) : Ice Beam OHKOes Victreebel and Tangela and 2HKOes Vileplume. As Vileplume always uses Stun Spore, with a Cherri Berry, it's a no damage sweep and even without you're heavily favoured.

Koga (37) : Surf OHKOes Koffing, 2HKOes Weezing and 3HKOes Muk. Golduck can sometimes take 2 Sludge from Muk and 1 from Weezing so it should win almost always, barring getting poisonned.

Sabrina (42) : Strength OHKOes Kadabra and 2HKOes Alakazam and Mr.Mime. Venomoth is 2HKOed by Surf. It's as always RNG reliant but Golduck takes Psybeam from Venomoth + Psychic from Alakazam and Alakazam seems to never use Psychic for some reasons.

Blaine (45) : 4 or 5 Surf and it's done. Golduck outspeeds everything and only Arcanine is a range and even then it can't do much back.

Giovanni (47) : Surf x5 and it's done.

Lorelei (53) : Cloud Nine is really clutch here. Set up 4 Calm Mind on Dewgong and 2HKO it with Surf. Cloyster comes next and get OHKOed. Then, Slowbro gets 2HKOed while Jynx will get OHKOed. Even Yawn from Slowbro barely matters as Jynx won't be able to do much. The, Lapras comes last and it's going to win as Golduck has no real ways of dealing with it and Body Slam hurts. Still great as Golduck beats 4 mons.

Bruno (54) : Just beat Onix. Fighting-types are 3HKOed and 2HKOes back.

Agatha (54) : With 3 Calm Mind, GolduckOHKOes everything with Surf. The problem is the Agatha lottery here. Between Toxic, confusion, sleep and evasion, Golduck may be weaken to the point it can't sweep. With Full Restore tho, Golduck should be able to win handily.

Lance (54) : Avoid Gyarados. Set up one Calm Mind on Aerodactyl while it can't 2HKO. From there, Ice Beam will OHKO the remaining mons. Really strong.

CHampion (54) : Golduck needs to be at +4 to sweep, which can be hard due to Whirlwind and will require healing. Otherwise, without setting up, Ice Beam 2HKOes Pidgeot. Rhydon is OHKOed by Surf. Arcanine is 2HKOed by Surf and only 3HKOes. It's hard to set up Calm Mind but Golduck should still beat 2 mons without it.

I managed to get a level 32 immediatly by fishing in Pallet Town which was amazing and reduced the training needed.

Erika (33) : Strength/Ice Beam 2HKOes Victreebel and Vileplume. Tangela is OHKOed by Ice Beam. With a Cherri Berry, Kingler beats Victreebel and Tangela but Vileplume is going to heal as Giga Drain nearly OHKOes and won't be 2HKOed by Strength due to this. Kinda bad as it only beats 2 mons despite a high level.

Koga (37) : Surf 2HKOes Koffing and 4HKOes Weezing. Mud Shot 2HKOes Muk. Between poison, Sludge, Acid Armor and Smokescreen, things can go wrong but Kingler still has good odds to beat at least a Koffing and Muk, which is fine.

Sabrina (42) : Strength OHKOes Kadabra and 2HKOes Mr.Mime and Venomoth. Alakazam is dealt with Mud Shot+Strength which allows to outspeed and 2HKO. The problem is that Psychic from Alakazam OHKOes but Kingler can still win thanks to bad AI anyway.

Blaine (45) : Surf OHKOes Ponyta and Growlithe. Due to the weak Special Attack, I decided to use Mud Shot instead of Surf. It's a range on Rapidash and even if you miss it, Rapidash will be slower. Arcanine is 2HKOed by Mud Shot and Kingler barely lives a Fire Blast from either. Pretty good as Kingler should win.

Giovanni (47) : Surf OHKOes Rhyhorn and Dugtrio and 2HKOes the Nidos. You easily take Earthquake from Dugtrio and both Nidos so Kingler wins here.

Lorelei (53) : Rock Tomb 3HKOes Dewgong and 2HKOes Jynx. It should beat these 2 in spite of its awful special bulk.

Bruno (53) : OHKO Onix with Surf. Beat Hitmonlee 1v1, being 3HKOed by Mega Kick while 2HKOing with Strength.

Agatha (53) : Not good. Beat Arbok with Rock Tomb + 2 Strength. It can also 3HKO Golbat with Strength but Arbok is more reliable due to the hax involved.

Lance (53) : Beats either Gyarados or Aerodactyl 1v1, 3HKOing with Rock Tomb while being 3HKOed.

Champion (53) : Beats Rhydon with Surf and Pidgeot, 3HKOing with Rock Tomb. If Pidgeot chooses not to attack every turn (it's always the case), you can beat Gyarados as well, 3HKOing with Rock Tomb.

Sabrina (50) : Ice Beam OHKOes Kadabra and Venomoth and is a range on Mr.Mime and Alakazam. Articuno only takes a third from +1 Psychic so it has no troubles winning here.

Blaine (50) : Not good. Ice Beam 2HKOes Growlithe and Ponyta and 3HKOes Rapidash. You can take down the 2 first and put 40% on Rapidash before falling.

Giovanni (50) : Ice Beam x5 and it's good.

Lorelei (53) : Fly 3HKOes Dewgong and 2HKOes Jynx. Articuno can't really beat the rest.

Bruno (53) : Ice Beam OHKOes Onix. Ice Beam + Fly is enough for Hitmonchan and you barely take 2 Rock Tomb. You can switch out and outspeed and OHKO Hitmonlee with Fly afterwards. Pretty good as Articuno beats 4 mons.

Agatha (53) : 2HKO Gengar 1 with Ice Beam. OHKO Golbat with it. Gengar 2 is 3HKOed and Articuno easily takes 3 hits. Haunter is 2HKOed by Ice Beam. Avoid Arbok due to Iron Tail. Pretty good as it beats 4 mons generally.

Lance (54) : TIme to shine ! Dragonair and Dragonite are outsped and OHKOed by Ice Beam. Gyarados is outsped and 3HKOed by Ice Beam so Articuno can beat it 1v1. Aerodactyl can't OHKO with Ancient Power and Ice Beam is a range on it. Strong as Articuno beats 4 mons here, including the signature one.

Champion (54) : Pidgeot and Venusaur are 2HKOed by Ice Beam. Rhydon is OHKOed by Ice Beam. Alakazam is a ange for the 2HKO with Ice Beam while it can't 2HKO. Gyarados is 3HKOed by Ice Beam. Pretty strong as Articuno should beat 4 mons (Pidgeot, Venusaur, Rhydon and Gyarados) and adding to that Alakazam assuming a Full Restore.

Training Slowpoke was awful. It's really slow and quite weak and it took quite some time to get it to level 37 (this is the first time ever I wasn't able to run away from Snorlax lol). Even as Slowbro, it can ba annoying as due to its poor speed, it gets worn down easily so you have to go the Pokemon Center often.

Erika (32) : Not happening, Slowpoke just doesn't have the stats.

Koga (37) : Outspeed and OHKO KOffing with Psychic. Muk is 2HKOed and Weezing is a range for the OHKO. Slowbro has no troubles taking Sludge so it's an easy win.

Sabrina (42) : Strength OHKOes Kadabra and 2HKOes Mr.Mime (use Surf if it uses Barrier as it will still 2HKO) and Alakazam. Venomoth is sent second, does nothing with Leech Life and gets OHKOed by Psychic. Not much troubles winning here as Slowbro 2HKOes everything and has the bulk to take multiple hits.

Blaine (45) : Surf OHKOes everything. Slowbro takes Bite from the Growlithe line and Stomp+Fire Blast from the Ponyta line. As long as it doesn't get flinched, it's a win.

Giovanni (47) : 5 Surf = win. No troubles winning here, even with a crit, Slowbro has the bulk to take 3 Earthquake.

Lorelei (53) : Set up 5 Calm Mind on Dewgong. From there, everything but Slowbro which is 2HKOed by Surf is OHKOed by either Psychic or Surf with only Lapras' Body Slam doing damages so as long as Slobro doesn't get paralysed or frozen, it's a win.

Bruno (54) : Surf on Onix. Psychic on Hitmonchan so that it activates Full Restore and Slowbro can set up a Calm Mind freely. Psychic and Surf will OHKO everything from here. The problem is that due to multiple hits, Slowbro will be forced to heal. The only situation where Slowbro wins is assuming there is a miss or Hitmonchan uses Counter (it sometimes happens lol). Regardless, it's a greta matchup and SLowbro beats itself the three fighting-types without any trouble.

Agatha (54) : Psychic OHKOes Gengar 1, Haunter and Golbat and is a range on Gengar 2 and Arbok. Hence, it's advicable to set up a Calm Mind on Gengar 1. From there, it's more of a matter of luck as Slowbro is bulky enough to take Sludge Bomb from Arbok and Shadow Ball from Gengar (and even Screech + Shadow Ball). Pretty good matchup, where Slowbro can win.

Lance (54) : There is 2 options here. Slowbro can set up 3 CM on Gyarados, heal after the Hyper Beam and win, as it OHKOes everything with Psychic or Ice Beam while being bulky enough tot take hits. Otherwise, like Golduck, it's possible to set up Calm Mind on Aerodactyl and OHKO everything with Ice Beam. It wins assuming Dragonair don't attack every turn (first turn seems to always use Safeguard). Great matchup, Lance is hard and Slowbro can pull a win or kill 4 mons.

Champion (54) : Set up 3 CM on Pidgeot. OHKO it with Ice Beam. OHKO Arcanine with Surf. Venusaur is OHKOed by Psychic. Against Gyarados, use Psychic so that it heals and you can set up Calm Mind freely during this turn. Alakazam is OHKOed by Surf and does nothing with Psychic. Then, you can heal on Rhydon and OHKO it with Surf as you live 2 Earthquake. Really strong showing. It depends a lot on Sand Attack, moves Pidgeot will use but Slowbro is amazing here and has one of the best performances ever.

I caught it directly as a Venomoth to avoid the awful Venonat phase.

Erika (32) : Psychic is a range on Victreebel and Tangela and 2HKOes Vileplume. Venomoth has no troubles winning here as it barelt gets hurt by Acid.

Koga (37) : Psychic OHKOes Koffing, 2HKOes Weezing and is a range for the 2HKO on Muk. Venomoth cleanly wins here as Sludge barely hurts.

Sabrina (42) : Aerial Ace 2HKOes Kadabra (no need to use Sleep Powder on it as it will most likely use Calm Mind). Mr.Mime requires Sleep Powder as it only gets 3HKOed and can pass Barrier to Alakazam. Alakazam outspeeds and OHKOes with Psychic. Venomoth is 2HKOed by Psychic.

Blaine (45) : Psychic 2HKOes Growlithe and Ponyta, 3HKOes Rapidash and 4HKOes Arcanine. Venomoth has to rely on Sleep Powder to beat the first 2 and Arcanine is nearly unfeasible. Fortunately, Fire Blast from Growlithe, Ponyta and Rapidash only 2HKOes so it can afford to miss once. Most of the time, venomoth will achieve 2/3 kills.

Giovanni (47) : Giga Drain Rhyhorn and Dugtrio and use GIga Drain+Psychic on Nidos. Easy win, Venomoth can tak handily 3 Earthquake thanks to the healing.

Lorelei (53) : Giga Drain 3HKOes Dewgong and Slowbro (Giga Drain + 2 Silver Wind is also enough for it). Psychic 2HKOes Cloyster. SilverWind 2HKOes Jynx. Venomoth has the bulk to take 3 Surf/Ice Beam/Ice Punch assuming no Hail. It's a bit AI reliant but Venomoth should beat 3/4 mons here. It's better to put Jynx and Dewgong asleep but you can afford to miss as it takes 3 hits and heals with Giga Drain anyway. Strong showing.

Bruno (53) : Giga Drain OHKOes Onix. Psychic 2HKOes Hitmon. Thanks to Shield Dust, Venomth won't get its speed lowered, which helps against Hitmonchan. Venomoth can't take a Rock Tomb + Mega Kick so it will have to ressort on Sleep Powder for Lee and Machamp. Still pretty god as in the worst case, Venomoth beats the 2 Onix and an Hitmon.

Agatha (53) : Outspeed and 2HKO Gengar 1 with Psychic. Avoid Golbat. Arbok is outsped and 2HKOed by Psyhic. Ge,gar 2 is also 2HKOed as wella s Haunter. Venomoth needs to rely on healing but it beats either Gengar 1, Arbok and Haunter or both gengar and Haunter.

Lance (54) : Pretty bad. Only beats a Dragonair, 3HKOing with Psychic. Will fall to the second.

Champion (54) : OHKO Rhydon with Giga Drain. 3HKO Venusaur with Psychic. Avoid the rest.

Erika (32) : Ice Beam OHKOes everything and Aurora Beam misses the OHKO on Vileplume that OHKOes back wit Giga Drain.

Koga (37) : Surf OHKOes Koffing, 2HKOes Weezing and is a range for the 3HKO on Muk (use Tackle if Surf doesn't do enough the first hit). Thanks to its bulk, Cloyster has no troubles taking repeated Sludge and should win without much troubles.

Sabrina (42) : Surf 2HKOes everything (Kadabra is 2HKOed through Calm Mind) and only Alakazam outspeeds. It's AI reliant as usual but you can take a Psybeam from Mr.Mime and one from Venomoth so Cloyster should beat Kadabra+these two at least. Alakazam is more troublesome as it OHKOes with Psychicbut sometimes feasible due to bad AI (like using Future Sight twice).

Blaine (45) : Surf OHKOes Growlithe and Ponyta and 2HKOes Rapidash and Arcanine. This time Cloyster outsped Rapidash (having used it several times it's not always the case) and by using Rain Dance on Arcanine, you can live a Fire Blast and OHKO it. Still, it's not as reliable as other Water-types and Cloyster isn't guaranteed to outspeed Rapidash.

Giovanni (47) : Surf OHKOes everything and Earthquake from Dugtrio, the only mon that outspeeds isn't threatening.

Lorelei (53) : 3HKOes Cloyster and Jynx, beating them confortably.

Bruno (53) : Just beats the Onix, outspeeding and OHKOing with Surf.

Agatha (53) : Range to 2HKO Gengar 1. OHKO Golbat with Ice Beam. Arbok 4HKOes with Sludge Bomb while Cloyster 3HKOes with Surf. Gengar 2 doesn't do lots of damages and is 3HKOed by Surf. Haunter is 2HKOed by Surf. Alright matchup and Cloyster can defeat both Gengar, Golbat and Haunter most of the time and assuming healing, Arbok can also get killed.

Lance (53) : Time to shine ! 2HKO Aerodactyl with Surf while being 3HKOed by Ancient Power. Outspeed and OHKO Dragonair with Ice Beam. Dragonite is outsped and Ice Beam is a range on it. Nice showing as Cloyster beats 3 mons and possibly the signature mon. Dragonite likes to go for Outrage or Hyper Beam so you can abuse it and ko it with something as it will be in red or low yellow.

Champion (53) : Ice Beam 2HKOes Pidgeot. Surf OHKOes Rhydon. Venusaur is sometimes feasible if it goes for Growth instead of directly attacking with Solar Beam (it often happens). Alright matchup but these are the easiest mons of the team.

I directly caught a Tangela instead of using the trade version because I didn't want a minus speed nature in order to outspeed Dewgong and Aerodactyl in Sun.

Sabrina (42) : 2HKO Kadabra with Giga Drain. Flee Venomoth. Set up a Growth and use Sunny Day to OHKO Mr.Mime and Alakazam with Solar Beam. It requires a bit of luck with Kadabra using Calm Mind and Mr.Mime either using Calm Mind or attacking but it's clearly feasible thanks to the bad AI. Tangela is OHKOed by Psychic from Alakazam but lives 2 Psybeam from Mr.Mime.

Blaine (45) : Nop.

Giovanni (47) : Use Growth twice to OHKO Nidoqueen Nidoqueen and proceed to sweep with Solar Beam. No troubles winning here as Tangela is incredibly bulky and even after the sun fades, it can use Solar Beam against last Rhyhorn with no problem.

Lorelei (53) : Outspeed and put asleep Dewgong. Set up a Growth on it. Then, use Sunny Day. Solar Beam will OHKO Dewgong, Slowbro and Lapras. Jynx comes next and as there is still the sun, it's better to put it asleep, use Sunny Day and 2HKO it with Solar Beam. Then, you can OHKO Cloyster. This isn't really reliable as you need to hit SLeep Powder and have more than 2 turns of sleep. Otherwise, you can set up 2 Growth on Cloyster and proceed to sweep but you'll miss out Dewgong. Alright matchup as Tangela can beat 4 mons but it implies either luck or setting up in the middle of the fight. It can be risky as Ice Beam and Ice Punch OHKO.

Bruno (53) : Use Sunny Day, then Sleep Powder, then 2 Growth and Solar Beam. Put Hitmonchan asleep, use Growth, Sunny Day and everything will get OHKOed by Solar Beam from there. The problem is that it's a bit unreliable. If Onix goes for Roar, Tangela most likely won't be able to pull a sweep. Sleep Powder can also miss, there is Iron Tail defense drop and a possible hit from Hitmonchan etc.

Agatha (53) : Nop.

Lance (53) : You need to set up 3 Growth to OHKO Gyarados with Solar Beam. Gyarados only 4HKOes Tangela (it goes for 2 Dragon Rage and then Hyper Beam, which Tangela barely lives). If Tangela manages to set up 3 Growth, it can then use Sunny Day and Solar Beam to OHKO Gyarados and Aerodactyl. The problem is that once again, Tangela is reliant on AI as 2 Bite + Hyper Beam actually 3HKOes here.

Champion (54) : Only beats Gyarados and Rhydon.


Yeah, this is fine in C-tier. Jolteon is just a regular Electric-type with more speed and power in exchange of TM reliance. It desesperately needs the Thunderbolt as otherwise, it will struggle to do something relevant. Not much to say on this one, it's really similar to Electrode, trading a bit more power for the lack of Explosion. Like other electric-type, it's bad for Erika and Bruno and hard loses to Giovanni while being mostly good for the rest. Not much to say on this one, it's pretty trivial and I don't think it will be contested, especially if Voltorb gets locked into C-tier.


This is good in B-tier. Hitmonlee is pretty good as it wins against Erika, Sabrina most of the time and Giovanni while never being a deadweight outside of the last fight. I feel A-tier was a bit too much as it has some struggles against Koga, Blaine, Agatha (unlike Primeape that runs Aerial Ace for her and straight up wins) and Champion but C-tier is underating it. It's clearly a step above Hitmonchan, as it actually wins against Erika and Giovanni, fares better against Koga due to needing one less Bulk Up, Agatha due to outspeeding Gengar 1 and needing one Bulk Up as opposed to 2 and Blaine a bit while being similar in other cases. Hitmonlee itself is pretty solid and I feel that winning against 3 gym leaders, heavily helping against Lorelei and Bruno while getting 2/3 kos in other matchup is enough for B-tier.

By the way, having Hitmonlee in B-tier also feels right about the rankings of the fighting-type. Mankey is clearly superior as it's available earlier, beats Brock (which is great if you're using Charmander), has roughly the same matchup afterwards but wins against Agatha thanks to Aerial Ace. Machamp and Hitmonlee are below because they just aren't as effective for these reasons. Hitmonchan is C-rank because it's a bit worse (lses to Erika, Giovanni and requires generally one more Bulk Up) and Machoke is D-rank because it's utterly terrible and ccan't win due to poor speed, bulk and average power. I know we don't tier on comparision but it feels more logical this way.


I'm pretty hesitant between A or B-tier but leaning towards the latter. Golduck was incredibly strong, defeating with ease Sabrina, Bruno, Giovanni and most of the time Agatha (as well as Erika but it was a bit overleveled). Other matchup were great and it has realistic chances to beat Koga, Sabrina and does incredibly well against Lorelei and Lance. Even Champion was alright as it can beat 3 mons. Calm Mind is a really strong move and Golduck clearly goes beyond what other Water-type do thanks to it. I'm still not sold on A-tier for a few reasons. First one is availability, I already mentionned it in the thread but assuming you want to use Golduck for Koga (which you should as it's really competent here), it's a 5% encounter that can possibly come at a low level so you'll need to wait a lot. If you decide to get it after Koga, then you have missed 5 gyms. Another problem is that it requires 2 contested TMs in Psychic and Calm Mind which you may want to use on a Psychic, Gengar, Clefable or Venomoth/Butterfree. Lastly, the Bruno fight is bad as it only beats the irrelevant Onix. I feel the combination of these factors make it a B-tier, although some may find it to be worthy of A-tier, so more input would be nice. Just like Exeggutor, Zapdos (and Slowbro), this is definitely in the top of A-tier and I'd recommend everyone to try it.


Although it's worse than other water-type, C-tier is fitting for it. It's not as good as other water-type due to its poor special attack and defense. It makes Blaine a bit less reliable (even thoug it should be a win with Mud Sjot as Kingler takes 2 Fire Blast) as well as Lance and Koga (not OHKOing Koffing is terrible). With that said, Kingler still had its uses, it beats gym 7-8 like other water-type and can pick up some mons like Koga's Muk thanks to Mud Shot, which is something, Lorelei's Dewgong, the Gyarados or Lance's Aerodactyl. It also has some advantages over other water-types. It's an HM Slave with Surf and Strength still helpful in battle, which is good and can come at a good level. I played on Leafgreen and you can find a wild Kingler from level 25-35, which makes training way quicker and you don't have the Krabby phase. Beating Blaine and Giovanni and getting some kos here and here as well as HM Slave and possibly coming at a good level make me feel C-tier is good for it albeit barely.


This is good in B-tier. Articuno is really strong, beating with ease Sabrina and Giovanni while having strong Elite 4 and Champion performance outside of Lorelei. While it's not as good as Zapdos, which is great in every single matchup, B-tier is more than deserved for Articuno. It's alongside Lapras and Jynx, one of the best Pokemon to use vs Lance, which is arguably the hardest Elite 4 memeber and defeating 4 mons felt great. Champion is also nice and taking down 4 mons is really impressive. Not much to add on this one, just a solid legendary that is dominating outside of Blaine and Lorelei and due to these matchup as well as coming late, it can't be A but still a really potent threat.


This Pokemon was incredibly great but B-tier should be fine for it. Slowbro is one of the very best Pokemon for the Elite 4 and it has no troubles beating Lorelei, sometimes Agatha while doing a lot against Champion (beating 5 mons is incredible). Even before the league, Slowbro is really strong and has no troubles beating Koga, Sabrina, Blaine (as long as it doesn't get haxxed) and Giovanni. One reason I feel it should be B-tier is how hard it is to train especially as a Slowpoke. It's really weak in spite of using high power moves in Surf and Psychic and its speed is a massive hinderance. Getting to level 37 isn't an easy task at all and even as Slowbro, the low speed harms it (like Snorlax really). Also, it has the same problems as Psyduck, you want to get it before Koga but it's pretty rare (and good luck training it if you catch it at a low level). These flaws prevent it from being A-tier but Slowpoke is really strong and was one of the best Pokemon to use.


This looks fine in C-tier. Venomoth is way better in practise than on paper as Sleep Powder is strong and it hits rather hard even with unSTAB Psychic. It easily wins against Erika, Koga and Giovanni and performs really well outside of Blaine, Lance and Champion. Although it's possibly the best C-tier, I don't feel it should be B-tier due to its availability. You have 2 choices here : get it directly as a Venomoth or train venonat. Catching a 5% encounter that has a 25% flee rate isn't always easy. As for Venonat, while it's common, it's pretty hard to train due to its subpar stats and it might take a while to get to level 31 and sometimes you may want to get to level 36 for Sleep Powder. Speaking of which, this move is absolutely needed on Venomoth and it relies a bit too much on it. You need to be at least at level 42, otherwise Sabrina is much less good. Without Sleep Powder, Mr.Mime is free to use Barrier and Baton Pass it to Alakazam which can rove to be difficult to deal with. Blaine becomes less good as you only beat either Growlithe or Ponyta. Lorelei is a bit less reliable and you can't hope to defeat 2 fighting-type without it against, Agatha becomes less good because you can't defeat both Arbok and Gengar 2. Overall, (like Tangela which I'll talk about afterwards), Venomoth relies a lot on Sleep Powder, which is prone to miss (it sadly doesn't have Coumpound Eyes like Butterfree) and that's why B-tier is overrating it a bit. Still, it was plently of fun to use and it's definitely a mon I'd recommend trying as it's pretty good.


I guess this can stay in C-tier albeit barely like Krabby. Due to its poor special bulk, Cloyster isn't as good as other water-types because it struggles to defeat Blaine. I feel it still deserves C-tier because it makes up for it with other matchup. Koga is really good thanks to its enormous physical bulk and it's always nice to defeat it. Agatha is also a bit better and Cloyster should beat 3/4 mons here. Lance I felt as better than the average water-type. These cases make me feel C-tier is fine for it although it's not as good as something like Seel or Seaking due to Blaine. I don't think it will get contested but C-tier looks fair for it.


Yeah, this can go to D-tier for sure. Tangela was clearly not effecient I found and could barely won reliably. The only matchup when it can win without any issue are Giovanni and Lorelei if it sets up on Cloyster and that's it. Sabrina isn't always the win as you need to rely on bad AI and she isn't that relevant due to how easy she can be (I used Machamp and Hitmon recently and all of them are favoured against her) and Tangela won't have Sleep Powder for her. Things can go wrong against Bruno if Onix uses Roar, Hitmonchan attacks etc. Even the good matchup aren't that relevant. Giovanni is always incredibly easy so defeating it isn't accomplishment. While Lorelei is pretty important, you need to set up in a specific position against Cloyster to pull a win. Tangela also comes late and at a rather low level because the in-game trade has Relaxed nature and can't outspeed Aerodactyl in Sun and Dewgong against Lorelei. Training it takes quite some time and I had to fight every trainer on Route 20 and 21 to get to level 40 and that took away lots of experience from my team. Outside of water-types, it's hard to train with all the poison-types in Kanto really. Adding to that, it really requires Sleep Powder and it's a bit annoying to get the Big Mushroom for Sleep Powder. Another problem is that it's totally useless in some matchup like Blaine and Agatha where it really does nothing. Really, between late availability, unconsistent perforlances outside of the always easy Giovanni, difficulties to train and wasting time so that it has Sleep Powder, it can't be C-tier. Bellsprout and Oddish are fine in C because they come earlier and defeat Misty and Surge and have the overall same matchup as Tangela afterwards but Tangela is rther unreliable and comes too late. I have no doubt this deserves D-tier.

With that done, I'm going to quickly recomment my noms whihc should make things easier in one post. I really want Clefairy in A-tier and Golem in C-tier for instance. I'l also comment mons I used with an asterisk (I'm using hide tags cause this is long).

Clefairy is definitely A-tier. It comes early, levels up really quickly and easily beat every gym leader until Blaine. Assuming you give it Calm Mind (Softboiled is uncontested really), it sweeps Blaine and Giovanni with ease. Given the BoltBeam TM, Clefable wins in every league battle outside of Bruno. Yes, it requires several TMs but a mon available before Misty, able to win in every major battle (outside of the slighly irrelevant Bruno) should definitely be A-tier, especially when it comes early and is in the fast growth group.

Golem is clearly not B-tier and C-tier rather. It hard loses to Misty and Erika and is quite frankly awful for the E4 and champion. B-tier mons are strong but Golem is average. It wins against Surge but that's it. Koga requires luck with Curlout. Sabrina is also luck reliant and things can go wrong. It can't beat Arcanine vs Blaine (it's sent second so you need to ko it with something before defeating the rest of the team). Giovanni is alright but it's easy. It does nothing outside of beating either the 2 Onix or one Hitmon with Explosion, Agatha is going to hax a lot especially when Golem uses unaccurate moves, it only beats Gyarados and Aero against Lance if it doesn't miss and Pidgeot ( and Charizard if you pick Bubasaur) against Champion. Really, Golem has no place in the same tier as smething like Slowbro, Zapdos or Golduck, which are incredibly good.

Pikachu is C-tier too. Yes it's available earlier compared to other electric-types and learns Thunderbolt naturally but even then, it's nothing special. Pikachu is hard to train before evolving and loses to both Brock and Misty. Surge is alright and as is Koga but Pikachu is mostlyirrelevant before other electric-types are available anyway. Then, due to being a bit weaker compared to other eletric-types and frailer, Raichu won't be as good in battles and fares worse than Jolteon agains Lorelei for instance. Really, while Pikachu comes earlier and learns Thunderbolt naturally, it's not exactly helpful before you get other electric-types and actually fare worse in battle compared to them. Having all electric-types outside of Zapdos in the same tier would make sense and Pikachu should definitely get into C-tier.

Diglett, just like Sandshrew and Cubone should be in D-tier. It beats Surge and that's about it. Magnitude is unreliable as a STAB. Dig is too weak and is a problem against most gym leaders (Koga, Sabrina and Giovanni). The Elite 4 is terrible and Dugtrio is getting at most a kill per battle lol. It's not easy to train as it's not strong outside of its STAB and is really frail. Really, this is bad and has no place in C.

Bulbasaur is fine in A-tier. It's the best starter and wins easily against Brock, Misty, Surge, Giovanni and Bruno. Other major battles outside of Blaine, Agatha (Golbat especially) and Lance's (well mostly its Dragonite) are good and Venusaur can potentially beat Erika and Koga and contribute a lot against Sabrina. Really it's solid and SleepSeed is incredibly strong. No doubt it's A-tier.

Staryu shouldn't be contested but yeah it's A-tier too. Outside of Jynx, it's really the best Pokemon to use and while it comes mid-game, requires 2 TMs, its performance more than makes up for it. Starmie just beats everything, requiring healing only for Lorelei sometimes and Champion.

Exeggutor is really strong but fine in B-tier due to coming late and slow growth rate. Otherwise, it's really strong and either straight up win or contribute heavily in every battle.

Growlithe is good enough for B-tier. It really needs the Flamethrower TM but thanks to its high stats, it beats easily Erika, Koga, Sabrina and Giovanni while doing a lot against the rest outside of Lance (where it still beats both Dragonair).

Lapras is fine in B-tier. It comes late and at a low level but compared to other water-types, it beats Sabrina, easily defeats Lorelei and is way better against Lance and Champion.

Machamp fits perfectly B-tier. Med slow growth rate is amazing and its power and bulk help a lot, meaning Machamp either wins or does nothing.

Nidoran-F is good in B-tier. It's a step below Nidoran-M but it's still good and will help no matter the fight.

Spearow is with Mankey one of the very best first Pokemon and good in B-tier. It easily beats Misty, Surge, Erika and Sabrina while never being a deadweight once it evolves. It can't be A because it struggles against Koga, Blaine and Lorelei most notably but it's really consistent and good.

Dratini is fine in C-tier as it has some uses before being Dragonite, most notably beating Erika and Blaine and contributes in every major battle. Dragonite itself is a monster and does a lot against Lorelei (possibly beating 4 mons), sweeps Bruno, sometimes Agatha and beats at least 4 mons against Lance. Champion is also great and it can beat Pidgeot, Rhydon, the grass-type, Arcanine and the water-type. Really, Dragonite is one of the best option for the Elite 4.

Flareon is pretty cool, doing fire-type stuff (beating Erika, being strong for Koga and Agatha), destroys Sabrina, does something against Blaine and Giovanni. The Elite 4 is pretty good as even against Lance it can beat both Dragonair and taking down Champion's Alakazam in one hit felt great.

Hitmonchan is a bit worse than other fighting-types hence the C-tier. It requires one more turn to set up, meaning it actually loses to Erika and Giovanni. Still, it's usable and C-tier is fine.

Poliwag does water-type stuff but struggles a bit more against Sabrina and Lance due to its fighting-type, lacks power and needs more TMs in exchange of a better Lorelei and Bruno so C-tier is fair.

Voltorb is just a regular Electric-type that outspeeds everything and has Explosion. It deserves C-tier like ther electric-type.

Zubat is good for D-rank. It's really hard to train as a Zubat and then as a Golbat late game. It still wins against Misty and Erika and does a lot against Giovanni but is pretty bad elsewhere.


S-tier is pretty easy. Jynx is the queen of the game, she destroys the game and has boosted experience. Alakazam is as good as usual and will beat most things thanks to CM+ Recover. Mr.Mime is slightly less good as it doesn't have Recover but traded experience and Thunderbolt makes up for it. Kadabra is basically an Alakazam that doesn't beat Lance.

Among A-tier, there are the starters that are incredibly consistent, no matter the fight. Vaporeon is incredibly consistent, boasting great power, enormous bulk and adequate speed and doesn't come too late, it beats most gym leaders without any trouble and has a great levelup movepool. Clefable is incredibly consistent and using the right moves, it will beat everything but Bruno which is incredible, comes early and levels up quickly. Starmie is nearly as good as Jynx but requires a few TMs and takes time to train. Gengar is a slightly worse Starmie (doesn't beat Blaine's Arcanine and Lance's Dragonite) but is easier to train and requires less TMs. Snorlax is a beast that outstall in every major fight outside of Bruno and somewhat Lance and Champion. Primeape is the best early mon available, beating Brock, Erika, Sabrina, Giovanni and Agatha while being really helpful against the rest. Nidoking only wins against Surge and Erika but is incredibly consistent in each fight really.

B-tier can be divised in strong early game mons, powerhouse that come too late and great mid-game option.

- Strong early mons are Charizard, Fearow and Nidoqueen. Charizard is really strong but struggles too much against important opponents (Brock, Misty and Lance) to be A, it still performs really well and fares better than expected in bad matchup. Fearow likewise is really strong, always contributes but struggles too much against Koga, Blaine and Lorelei even though it has one of the strongest early to mid game performance.. Nidoqueen is a bit worse than Nidoking but will helpno matter the battle.

- Powerhouse that come too late are Zapdos, Psyduck, Slowbro, Exeggutor and somewhat Lapras and Articuno. These mons are really great and while there might be some struggles (Blaine for Exeggutor and Bruno for Golduck), there are incredibly consistent for the rest. The problem is either catching them (Zapdos, Articuno and somewhat Psyduck and Slowbro) or train them (Slowbro, Lapras and Exeggutor). They have an A-tier performance but due to coming late and these problems they can't be A-tier.

Great mid-game options are Gyarados, Dodrio, Haunter, Machamp, Hitmonlee, Tentacruel and Arcanine. Gyarados is annoying to get but incredibly strong, outright winning in most matchup outside Erika, Surge, Agatha and Lance while still helping in said matchup. Dodrio is basically a better Fearow available later. Haunter is really strong but isn't as good as Gengar due to its speed not allowing to outspeed Alakazam and sometimes power (i.e not OHKOing Growlithe and Ponyta against Blaine) but it sil does a lot in almost every battle. Machamp and Hitmonlee are solid picks that wins against Erika, sometimes Sabrina and Giovanni while being decent to good in other fights outside of Champion. Tentacruel is better than the average water-type because you can get it at a high level and it beats Bruno by itself, has Giga Deain to defeat Lorelei's Dewgong and the superior speed help a lot for Sabrina and Lance. The ground weakness doesn't matter as it wins vs Giovanni and ground-types and the Psychic weakness is nothing because it tends to do well against Sabrina.

C-tier is well-diversified.

- There are the Water-types. Dewgong, Seaking and Seadra arejust generic water that beat Giovanni and Blaine, strong against Lance and bad to average elsewhere. Poliwrath distinguishes itself with Bulk Up and fighting-types to beat Lorelei but somewhat lacks power and struggles more against Sabrina and Lance. Cloyster loses to Blaine and is a bit worse overall but peforms way better against Koga and Lance. Kingler isn't as good as other water-types but can beat the Gyarados from Lance and Champion, Dewgong from Lorelei and has HM utilities while still defeating Blaine and Giovanni.

- The Electric-types are incredibly similar as they have nearly the same matchup and just use their STAB. They do alright against Koga if available, are good for Sabrina, decent for Blaine (outside of Magneton), great for Lorelei, bad for Bruno and great for Agatha. There are some differences in stats but they mostly remain the same anyway.

- The Fire-types are usable. They beat easily Erika, Sabrina, do a lot against Giovanni and are overall really helpful. Flareon distinguishes itself by its ability to pick up Alakazam at the cost of needing a Shadow Ball TM.

- Venomoth and Butterfree are great picks. They have great coverage and excels at beating certain opponents. They just lack the stats to be more noteworthy and tend to rely on Sleep Powder but are eally consistent at what they do and are fun to use.

- Dragonite is pretty unique. Dragonair is pretty solid in these games, beating Erika and Lorelei and contributing. Dragonite is incredibly strong and beats 3/4 mons at least against each member of the E4 and Champion.

- Hitmonchan and Hypno are just worst fighting-type and psychic-types. They need more times to set up, which hinders their performances but are still worth using.

- The safari mons are fairly good, in spite of how they are to get. Pinsir destroys Lorelei and Bruno and is overall a good pick outside of Agatha and Koga. Scyther is more matchup specific but cleanly beats Erika, Koga, Sabrina and Agatha and in some battles can set up mid-game to sestroy the team.

- The grass-types are alright. They are matchup reliant but winning against Misty, Surge and Giovanni while doing a lot against Lorelei and Bruno is enough for C-tier in spite of how hard they are to train.

- Golem is pretty bad but it beats Surge and potentially Koga if lucky. It can help here and here, like getting 3 kos against Blaine and has Explosion. That's why C-tier feels warranted, even though it's at the bottom of it (and really shouldn't be B-tier honestly).

- Farfetch'd is surprisingly usable. Boosted experience and critting with Stick are great. It has actual good matchup against Surge, Erika and Koga and enormous utility with Fly+Cut. You can also use Double Dance + Agility forgetting Cut when not needed and Farfecth'd will be able to beat Agatha. HM utility + being good for 3 gyms and Agatha is enough for C-tier.

- Raticate comes really early and beats Misty, Surge and Erika and can do damages and pick up a threat, except for the Elite 4 outside of Erika so it can be at the bottom of C-tier.

- Persian has a niche with Pay Day and Pickup as Meowth which can prove useful. It's not that good in battle but has some uses, like defeating Sabrina with ease.

D-tiers contains many mons, mostly Pokemon either hard to get, available late or Pokemon that are only average at best.

- Moltres, Rapidash and Magmar come too late to really justify using them but have some use against Lorelei, Agatha and Champion, thus escaping the lowest tier. It's pretty much the same for Tangela, Muk, Weezing and Rhydon. They just come too late and aren't really worth using because they are many better things to use as they aren't the most reliable options for the end game. They still have a niche to warrant D-tier tho.

- The fossils are annoying to get to a good level but perform well, winning until the Elite 4 and still having decent performances there (Lorelei and Agatha are good for Kabutops and Agatha and Lance are great for Omastar).

- Tauros and Kangaskhan are hard to catch and aren't the best things to use either. Using a physical attacker is cool for Sabrina but they struggle a lot against Koga, Blaine and aren't that helpful for the Elite 4. Normal isn't the best typing for Kanto tbh.

- Ground-types are mostly bad in Kanto. Dig is too weak this generation and outside of Marowak, which is incredibly slow they don't have a reliable STAB. They beat Lt. Surge easily and some mons here and here but they are mostly bad outside of that.

- Pidgeot, Golbat, Arbok, Beedrill, Parasect, Machoke and Wigglytuff are mons available early that performs badly. Golbat and Parasect are good for some matchup but are hard to train especially Parasect which even struggles against Zubat that are everywhere in Kanto. Pidgeot is only passable but has some uses. Arbok is annoying to train until it evolves and even then, it's nothing particular and will rely on the unaccurate Screech + Hyper Beam combo. Beedrill is great for Misty, Surge and Erika but won't do much afterwards. Machoke really can't set up due to poor bulk and even then, it's not particularly strong. Wigglytuff is really bad, it's weak, slow and rather frail, its performance early game and good availability prevent it from being E-tier but it's among the worst things to use.

E-tier Pokemon are barely usable.

- Porygon has some uses but is way too expensive and doesn't thave the stats to justify it (even though Recover + Sharpen + Agility is cool).

- Chansey is hard to get and not good in battles. Yes, it can win against Lorelei and sometimes Blaine with Toxic and SOftboiled but it just takes forever and there are better strats to use.

- Lickitung is an even worse Wigglytuff, which is barely E-tier. You can only get it in mid-game after trading one excellent Pokemon. It's not going to do anything relevant in battle anyway.

- Onix is really weak and has no use outside of late Surge. Graveler is already bad but Onix is a faster, way weaker Graveler that can't even OHKO Charizard with Rock Slide and is incredibly painfull to train.

- Ditto has no use, the first Pokemon of the team is also the weakest and it takes too muc damages transforming.

With that said, I'm done with FRLG runs. I want to say thanks to the posters like Colteor, Turdterra and Texas Cloverleaf (really liked reading your posts and we share the same views on various mons like Aerodactyl, Exeggutor and Golduck). Lastly, I want to say that Ryota does a really nice work leading the thread, every possibly contested mon are well highlighted and you're active to the point things are progressing really quickly.
Still kinda new at tiering.

I agree on the tier for Golduck and Slowbro, however, while Psyduck/Slowpoke are version exclusives for FRLG, Route 6 in Kanto allows you to surf for Psyduck/Slowpoke 100% chance in each game ranging level from 20-40 which we could get a high level one using the repel trick.

Haven't tried catching one myself since not sure how long it would take with the small pond on Route 6.

One level (or one rare candy) would evolve the 2 right away and not so sure if having a level 41 water type pokemon at that point in game has any impact on level restrictions or performances.

Another one of the hidden high level pokemon in the early regions where high level water type pokemon can be found right away when you get surf, kinda like the level 50 Magikarp on your way to Lake of Rage in HGSS.
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