Pokémon Firered & Leafgreen In-Game Tier Discussion

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Just did a run with these


:rs/Nidoking: (non trade from FR) -----> S rank

Incredible mon. Outside of no longer hitting Gengar and Weezing with Earthquake/Dig his dominance from rby is mostly untouched, actually gets some nice perks to make up for it such as megahorn and poison point finishing off kills for you sometimes, and is basically set until the absolute endgame as soon it gets the Rock Slide tutor from Rock Tunnel. Only really bad match ups are Misty (not strong enough yet) and Misty v2.0 (without game corner tms), anything else is handled with no problems considering the options it has available. Game corner tms (mostly ice beam and thunderbolt) and some x items just to give him the boost it needs to solo all the non Lance elite 4 members + Champion might be needed to use it to its full potential against the elite 4, but by absolute late game dumping cash on them is a non issue and when Nidoking is by far the best possible user of the game corner tms anyway.

The slow start as Nidoran is not even that bad when MT. Moon can easily level him up between a bit of sharing exp with something else, bug catchers, and wild paras to make it incredibly easy to come out of there with a Nidoking. And once it gets dig (and use of the rock tomb tm) it should have no issues reaching lv 22 before SS Anne rival where it gets a pretty strong and consistent move in Thrash to complement his rock/ground coverage and carry it for a long time.

:rs/Blastoise: -----> S rank

This guy being anything below S would be an insult to it. This is the list of relevant matchups where Squirtle/Wartortle/Blastoise is not optimal: Surge and Erika that can be done later if you really want to anyway. Its level up movepool is mostly irrelevant outside of Bite after beating Brock, but that is all it really needs when it and Water pulse are strong enough to carry it until it can get Surf as Blastoise. Also has an incredibly easy time being higher level than the rest (at least until you get to Koga/Sylph rival/Sabrina) when Rock Tunnel, Lavender tower, part of Sylph, and Rocket Hideout are seemingly made to cater to its most natural moveset possible. Elite 4 + Champion need some x item and guard spec set up (because Blastoise gets no boosting moves) to properly sweep them, but that is hardly an issue when all 5 of their starting mons don't really do much to Blastoise anyway. Even with him soloing the elite 4 because it ended up being faster than anyone else doing it and some rare candies, this only ended at lv 58.

Used Ice beam (obtained late game when dumping cash was not a problem) on this one, but Blizzard from Cinnabar mansion with x-accuracy for Lance's dragons and Venusaur works just as well.

:rs/Raichu:-----> C rank

Only bothered with this because it was the first mon that appeared in Viridian Forest lol. Anyway, this thing is not that impressive outside of natural Thunderbolt that at least make it easy to lv up, but getting there is the problem because the Pikachu stage is awful. If the Pikachu stage is skipped by getting it at the power plant, it doesn't really do much outside of bullying the swimmers, anglers, and bird keepers because thunderbolt is all it really does thanks to all its other moves sucking for it. Lorelei and Lance (this will need seismic toss or a strong normal move for the Dragonairs though) are the only relevant matchups where Raichu does anything significant.

:rs/Snorlax: -----> Can stay in A just fine

Being slow as fuck to guarantee it almost always will take a hit first sucks, but its bulk, power and mostly good relevant matchups make up for it. Also has utility as a mini hm slave when it only really needs normal stab and brick break to do his thing for most of the game, with late game shadow ball being an option to deal with those dumb Gengar if someone wants to do so. Being able to brutalize Sabrina and Blaine (needs thick fat for this though) while being pretty underleveled is also a really nice thing to make his horrible experience group not as bad in practice, or at least not for a bit.


:rs/Farfetch -----> D rank

Perfectly fine where it is because it really falls off shortly after it is obtained, but being able to make up for its awful offenses with guaranteed Adamant, Stick for a good crit chance, and natural swords Dance at least saves it from being truly useless outside of fly slave. Could even got C considering that rank is filled with some really questionable things right now that and when its good traits kind of make up for how awful it is stat wise while not being that slow.

:rs/Flareon: -----> D rank and could even be E because it is that bad

Now this is a real piece of shit that is way too reliant on early game corner tms to at least be remotely useful outside of killing route trainers that die to almost anything anyway. If it doesn't, it is stuck with really bad moves for a long time that make it so bad to the point Farfetch'd of all things outperforms it in the one gym where it should have an advantage. Even with game corner tms as an option it is really low on the list of thing that deserve those when there are at least 10 different things that are way better uses of such a luxury, while late game it is incredibly subpar regardless.
Want to say I also support the banning of X items and think Blastoise being in S is extremely questionable.

Also, a level 62 Nidoking at the League? I’m never even close to 60s when I’m playing the Kanto games, unless I’m using something like the traded Jynx (that thing destroys everything). I’m always low 50s.

I can kind of see Nidoking in S because well, yeah it is Nidoking, but I would also never in my life consider niche strats like Focus Energy to make that call, you’re better off just attacking with King. And if a mon needs X Items to make kills in several matchups, it’s not even close to being worthy of S in my opinion. An S tier generally indicates a mon needs hardly any support to steamroll the game. Also wouldn’t be opposed to Nidoking being A if the performance warrants it.

Also, a +Speed nature is something not everyone will have on Nidoking.
 
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Ryota Mitarai

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Nidoking in S isn't strictly an insane thing. I remember it was really great when I used it, but it was a while ago, so I cannot really say much. I don't recall even teaching it that many TMs (I know I taught it Blizzard for Lance, however). I think the best way to handle this is to have someone retest it. I'd do it myself, though I am sort of busy with RBY (and after that HGSS) so if you need me to test it, I'd probs have to resort to soloing the game with it (obv, I'd still manage my levels to not be high).

e: to make it clear, I believe it should be A-tier at worst. I am not making a definitive nomination, because it was a while ago that I used it

for Farfetch'd, TROP hinted to a possibility of C-tier and I am gonna say that Farfetch'd should be C-tier. In addition to SD + Stick + Return (and later Slash) being somewhat strong, you also have to acknowledge that Farfetch'd can run Cut and Fly in the same moveset and also be a viable member of your team. And there's the traded Exp., as well. So I'd say that SD + Stick + functioning as an HM slave + boosted Exp. all at once should push it to C-tier. If there's a huge need to, I can try digging out logs for it.
 
Did some more tests. Realized I forgot to say Beedrill's level at Misty. It was 19 which does affect the matchup as I had no Twineedle. Around Koga I used the VS Seeker to help close the level gap that is left from Erika which is an astounding 10-11 levels. I did leave an entire route alone (the east side of Fuschia) as I plan to use that for Sabrina Levels.

Golem (28-29): Magnitude 7-8 is a 2HKO on Onix, I assume 9-10 is an OHKO. Rhyhorn is much the same. Kang has a lot of bulk and can flinch you like crazy with Bite. Rock Slide is roughly a 2-4HKO depending on Crit. Magnitude needs to be a 9-10 to 2HKO. Kang doesn't threaten you. Great mu.

Ivysaur (29): Razor Leaf OHKOs Onix and Rhyhorn. Depending on AI Derp, it can sweep. Mega Punch from Kang is a 2HKO. Leech Seed and Razor Leaf are your friend as well as AI Stupidity. Due to the AI Nature of this fight, good mu.

Beedrill (29): BB is a 3HKO on Onix (it used Harden) and a 2HKO on Rhyhorn. Khan came out and buried its face in the dirt with a Mega Punch. Was very anticlimatic. Good mu.

Gyarados (29): Water Pulse OHKOs Onix and Rhyhorn. Return is a 4HKO on Khan while Dragon Rage is a 3HKO. I tested 4 times. All of them are a sweep. A non intimidated Khan can 2HKO you with Mega Punch though. Might be 3HKO (Was slightly damaged from something).

Beedrill (29-30): Aerial Ace is a 2HKO on everything. Give Beedrill a Cheri Berry and watch is wreck. Excellent mu.

Gyarados (29-30): It can sweep but is incredibly reliant on Paralysis being nice with you. I used Cheri on Victrebel as it will always go for a Stun Spore it seems. Tangela HAS to poison you to avoid Stun Spore which leads into another issue. Vileplume can deal some damage to Gyara with Giga Drain. I got lucky and beat her with 3 HP remaining with Poison. Return is a 2HKO on everything but she will have enough HP regained from Giga Drain to put her in Potion Range sadly. Decent mu

Ivysaur (29): Can't even get past Victrebel. SP is like a 6HKO or something, you'll die to it's Acid attack before then. Terrible mu

Golem (29): Lol.

Golem (36-37): You can go two ways about this. Rock Slide and Magnitude can net you a sweep however Weezing will outlast the Rock Slides. The other way is DCurl and Rollout which decimates his team once it gets going. Smokescreen is an issue, but I landed all my Rollouts. Great mu. Rock Slide is a 2HKO on Koffing, 4HKO on Weezing, and Magnitude 8 is an OHKO on Muk. 7 is a 2HKO.

Venusaur (36-37): I don't know what is wrong with my game, but no Pokemon seems to be asleep for more than 2 turns and that's annoying. The issue where is that I still have SP and Return went to Gyarados. I COULD give Strength but that would still bum off of Venusaur's lower offensive stat which is pretty mediocre. Plus I plan to use SunnyBeam in the end game. Overly Reliant on SleepSeed again and Koffing is about a 4HKO with SP and Leech. Muk is even worse and is just Leech Damage with some SP (if you can land it) Weezing just kills you flat due to Smokescreens and its chunkiness. Couldn't even get a Seed up. Koga also has a Full Heal. Terrible mu

Gyarados (36-37): If Gyarados was 37 on Koffing it is OHKO'd by Surf. Sadly I am 36 right there which results in a 2HKO. Even if you are not poisoned, you are just walled by Muk as you have no real answer to it and it will spam Minimize. Koga will the shove Hyper Potions down it's throat and all hope of beating it goes with. Return seems to be a 3-4HKO on Muk. Never saw the Weezing.

Beedrill (36-37): Can't beat the first Koffing.

Around this time I give prelim placements on what I think so far.

Golem: A. Outside of the obvious Gyms that it will fail too, Misty and Erika so far, the thing has been a juggernaut. I wouldn't say S but it is much like HGSS in a sense where it is incredibly good and had a case for S there.

Venusaur: B. While it has an amazing early game, the mid game just utterly shafts it and it's waning power is showing. Most mooks are also a 2HKO with Razor Leaf as well, but we don't really consider those. Hopefully it will get better as the game goes on in the end game.

Gyarados: Either B or A. The Karp period sucks obviously. But once you get Gyarados it's off the the races sort of. It does a lot and deals a lot of damage, but it has the same issue in RBY. TMs. So far I have given it Water Pulse and Return (Water Pulse was naturally upgraded to Surf which should not be treated as cost here as it is required for game prog and it can actually use it). Mid Game is a rough patch for this guy too. I did not get Ice Beam due to the cost of such a TM but it is an option for Erika, but not mandatory like I showed. Hopefully once the test finishes I am more conclusive on my placement for this guy.

Beedrill: D. Absolutely not to be any higher. While it can handle stuff like Misty and Surge, that's really about it. It can clear routes but once again, so can any mon not named Karp. I've sunk 3 TMs into the guy to get it to deal a modicum of damage. Brick Break, Giga Drain, and Aerial Ace. They all see usage in one fight or another (Outside of Giga. Have yet to use it), but the stats are just too middling to make good use of them. Compound this with the absolute atrocious movepool this guy has and you get this placement. I doubt this will go anywhere and may actually fall to E but time will tell.
 

TROP

BAN DRUDDIGON. FIREWALL DRAGON DID NOTHING WRONG
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Also, a level 62 Nidoking at the League? I’m never even close to 60s when I’m playing the Kanto games, unless I’m using something
There are literally 12 rare candies that are pickupable before the credits roll and saving them for the endgame is not hard. Most of those are also from mandatory areas, so they are not too hard to get while you are doing something else.
62 is hardly unrealistic and could have been up to 66 if I really wanted to.

I can kind of see Nidoking in S because well, yeah it is Nidoking, but I would also never in my life consider niche strats like Focus Energy to make that call, you’re better off just attacking with King.
Except that focus energy gives the power it needs to potentially one shot Giovanni's Nidos and the even bigger point is how irrelevant the fourth slot is at that point that it can be focus energy just fine even if it is almost never used before that. Also it is literally only used for that fight and then replaced by one of the end game coverage options anyway.

And if a mon needs X Items to make kills in several matchups
X-items at most are only needed in the elite 4 and only to potentially speed up each fight by a turn or 2 at minimum now that they don't have 0 ivs in everything. And yes, that is what pre elite 4 gym leader ivs are as seen here https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/nuzlocke_forum/gym-leader-ivs-evs-t3273.html#p1521812 and I think who posted that is known well enough here to know it is trust worthy.

Also, a +Speed nature is something not everyone will have on Nidoking.
If it was something that is a pain to catch/obtain like thick club, sure, but Route 3 Nidoran male (in Fire red at least) is common enough to the point this is basically a non issue in practice.

To other things:

:RS/Alakazam: ----> Either bumped down with Kadabra or merged with it in S

Except for potentially 2 pokemon in the whole run (Aerodactyl because it needs at least 159 speed to outspeed it and final Arcanine at low to yellow bar HP) there is no real practical difference between 2 when there are no significant moveset differences, kill things in the same number of turns anyway thanks to how dumb guaranteed early psychic is, and reflect allows both to set up on Lance's Gyarados and Pidgeot (Sand Attack is still annoying though, but other than that it really doesn't do much) with no fear anyway.

:rs/Moltres: ----> E

Comes way too late in an area really out of the way with nothing of note in it and its movepool just sucks, and unlike its brothers Articuno and Zapdos it doesn't have any relevant matchups to trivialize to make up for it.

:rs/Blastoise: ----> Still S

Wartortle stage after Erika but before Koga is not that bad when it is incredibly easy to get to Blastoise in the inbetween thanks to rocket hideout, lavander tower (also good for a few s.p.a evs) route trash that is 2hkoed by water pulse at worst, and Surf being about 10 minutes at most after obtaining the pokeflute going for the cycling road route instead of route 12.

Also, just soloed the elite 4 in a pre elite 4 save state without x-items using him. Needs a pretty unconventional set, but it has like no competition for 2 of the key moves for this anyway.

Elixirs and ethers are obviously used to make the solo doable. Was boosted to 55 with rare candies to end, if it everything goes well, at a beautiful 60.

Lorelei:

Blastoise entered here at 55 and holding blackglasses.

Sub on dewgong as it ice beam and I keep my sub and then focus punch one shots it. Cloyster is a non threat and it does me a favor by setting up hail to chip Slowbro ,as for cloyster itself it died to bite + focus punch. Bite on slowbro puts it around half and it breaks my sub, then I sub again as it tries to go for yawn lol, second bite kills it. Focus punch one shots jynx. Lapras takes one focus punch and berry puts it slightly above Full restore range, I sub next turn and to my surprise body slam didn't break it, next turn another focus punch kills it.

Bruno:

Blastoise enters at 56 and focus punch gets replaced with rain dance. Item is replaced with mystic water. that was obtained as soon I got to Celadon because I had like 60k money and sold some useless items.

Sub on the massively strong onyx as it fails to break it, next turn I rain dance and thankfully his rock tomb fails, but I could have subbed again next turn anyway so this actually works against me to make torrent range a bit hard to achieve lol, onyx obviously died to surf. Hitmonchan fails to break the sub and dies to 2 surfs. Surf doesn't kill hitmonlee but puts it in full restore range as I set up rain dance before it breaks my sub, then I sub again twice to get in torrent range and one shot it with surf. Machamp gets ohkoed by the super boosted surf. Onix 2 obviously dies to surf.

Agatha:

Set stays the same and Blastoise is still lv 56.

This Blastoise must be blessed in speed ivs + evs or Agatha has a hindering speed nature because at 123 speed I can sub before it touches me, it double teams, then I bite and it breaks my sub with a critical shadow punch lol, I sub again and this time it fails to break the sub, with that same move then it dies to another bite. Surf on golbat as it breaks my sub with air cutter, then I sub again and block a confuse ray, set up rain dance as the weakling fails to break my sub this time when using air slash, then dies to another surf. Arbok gets one shotted by torrent rain dance mystic water Sub. Haunter and Gengar 2 have the same fate.

Lance:

Blastoise comes at 57 and the reliable Bite that has been with Blastoise for most of the game and is replaced by Blizzard to give it the power to one shot Dragonite with no issues as long as it hits.

Sub on gyarados it doesn't break the sub with bite, I surf once as it breaks the sub with dragon rage, I sub again and the same as step 1 happened, now I blizzard, it uses bite and fails to break, I set up rain dance as it hyper beams, on recharge turn I sub again and get in torrent range, next turn Gyarados dies. Dragonair 1 is one shotted by Blizzard. Same fate for Dragonair 2. Blizzard fails on dragonite and it breaks sub with wing attack, for safety reasons I Full restore here as it goes for outrage, thankfully the next blizzard hit and Dragonite dies. Aerodactyl is a pussy and not strong enough to kill even with hyper beam crit (I think) and obviously dies to Surf.

Champ:

Blastoise is 58 and really close to 59,everything else exactly as it was with lance but restored obviously.

Sub on Pidgeot to avoid that stupid sand attack, it goes for feather dance instead though, Surf and it goes for...Sand Attack?????, Surf kills it next turn. Blizzard thankfully hits and puts venusaur at around half while I still have my sub up as it tries to solar beam, relying on Blizzard sucks but it lands and this is dead. On alakazam I rain dance (on handsight this probably wasn't needed lol) first but it breaks my sub with Psychic, Alakazam goes for Reflect???? as surf does about 80% to its hp, full restore and surf does slightly less, it hits me with psychic and the turtle is still not at torrent range lol but the biggest threat in his team is now dead. Rhydon obviously dies to surf. I heal on gyarados because it can't really do much to me anyway as it misses hydro pump???? I sub again and it fails to break with dragon rage, another rain dance and it successfuly breaks the sub this time, blizzard hits and does about 30%, it goes for dragon rage and puts me close to torrent range, the following surf does ~30% and it hits me with dragon rage, I sub to get in torrent range as it breaks it with a crit hydro pump, the next surf finally kills this thing. Arcanine is not really a thread, but I heal just so it doesn't stop the solo with extremespeed which it uses, it dies to the next surf.

TL;DR: Gyarados is the only annoying thing to kill, and only because it has good special bulk since it can't really do much to Blastoise in either of the battles it shows up..
 
There are literally 12 rare candies that are pickupable before the credits roll and saving them for the endgame is not hard. Most of those are also from mandatory areas, so they are not too hard to get while you are doing something else.
62 is hardly unrealistic and could have been up to 66 if I really wanted to.


Except that focus energy gives the power it needs to potentially one shot Giovanni's Nidos and the even bigger point is how irrelevant the fourth slot is at that point that it can be focus energy just fine even if it is almost never used before that. Also it is literally only used for that fight and then replaced by one of the end game coverage options anyway.


X-items at most are only needed in the elite 4 and only to potentially speed up each fight by a turn or 2 at minimum now that they don't have 0 ivs in everything. And yes, that is what pre elite 4 gym leader ivs are as seen here https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/nuzlocke_forum/gym-leader-ivs-evs-t3273.html#p1521812 and I think who posted that is known well enough here to know it is trust worthy.


If it was something that is a pain to catch/obtain like thick club, sure, but Route 3 Nidoran male (in Fire red at least) is common enough to the point this is basically a non issue in practice.

To other things:

:RS/Alakazam: ----> Either bumped down with Kadabra or merged with it in S

Except for potentially 2 pokemon in the whole run (Aerodactyl because it needs at least 159 speed to outspeed it and final Arcanine at low to yellow bar HP) there is no real practical difference between 2 when there are no significant moveset differences, kill things in the same number of turns anyway thanks to how dumb guaranteed early psychic is, and reflect allows both to set up on Lance's Gyarados and Pidgeot (Sand Attack is still annoying though, but other than that it really doesn't do much) with no fear anyway.

:rs/Moltres: ----> E

Comes way too late in an area really out of the way with nothing of note in it and its movepool just sucks, and unlike its brothers Articuno and Zapdos it doesn't have any relevant matchups to trivialize to make up for it.

:rs/Blastoise: ----> Still S

Wartortle stage after Erika but before Koga is not that bad when it is incredibly easy to get to Blastoise in the inbetween thanks to rocket hideout, lavander tower (also good for a few s.p.a evs) route trash that is 2hkoed by water pulse at worst, and Surf being about 10 minutes at most after obtaining the pokeflute going for the cycling road route instead of route 12.

Also, just soloed the elite 4 in a pre elite 4 save state without x-items using him. Needs a pretty unconventional set, but it has like no competition for 2 of the key moves for this anyway.

Elixirs and ethers are obviously used to make the solo doable. Was boosted to 55 with rare candies to end, if it everything goes well, at a beautiful 60.

Lorelei:

Blastoise entered here at 55 and holding blackglasses.

Sub on dewgong as it ice beam and I keep my sub and then focus punch one shots it. Cloyster is a non threat and it does me a favor by setting up hail to chip Slowbro ,as for cloyster itself it died to bite + focus punch. Bite on slowbro puts it around half and it breaks my sub, then I sub again as it tries to go for yawn lol, second bite kills it. Focus punch one shots jynx. Lapras takes one focus punch and berry puts it slightly above Full restore range, I sub next turn and to my surprise body slam didn't break it, next turn another focus punch kills it.

Bruno:

Blastoise enters at 56 and focus punch gets replaced with rain dance. Item is replaced with mystic water. that was obtained as soon I got to Celadon because I had like 60k money and sold some useless items.

Sub on the massively strong onyx as it fails to break it, next turn I rain dance and thankfully his rock tomb fails, but I could have subbed again next turn anyway so this actually works against me to make torrent range a bit hard to achieve lol, onyx obviously died to surf. Hitmonchan fails to break the sub and dies to 2 surfs. Surf doesn't kill hitmonlee but puts it in full restore range as I set up rain dance before it breaks my sub, then I sub again twice to get in torrent range and one shot it with surf. Machamp gets ohkoed by the super boosted surf. Onix 2 obviously dies to surf.

Agatha:

Set stays the same and Blastoise is still lv 56.

This Blastoise must be blessed in speed ivs + evs or Agatha has a hindering speed nature because at 123 speed I can sub before it touches me, it double teams, then I bite and it breaks my sub with a critical shadow punch lol, I sub again and this time it fails to break the sub, with that same move then it dies to another bite. Surf on golbat as it breaks my sub with air cutter, then I sub again and block a confuse ray, set up rain dance as the weakling fails to break my sub this time when using air slash, then dies to another surf. Arbok gets one shotted by torrent rain dance mystic water Sub. Haunter and Gengar 2 have the same fate.

Lance:

Blastoise comes at 57 and the reliable Bite that has been with Blastoise for most of the game and is replaced by Blizzard to give it the power to one shot Dragonite with no issues as long as it hits.

Sub on gyarados it doesn't break the sub with bite, I surf once as it breaks the sub with dragon rage, I sub again and the same as step 1 happened, now I blizzard, it uses bite and fails to break, I set up rain dance as it hyper beams, on recharge turn I sub again and get in torrent range, next turn Gyarados dies. Dragonair 1 is one shotted by Blizzard. Same fate for Dragonair 2. Blizzard fails on dragonite and it breaks sub with wing attack, for safety reasons I Full restore here as it goes for outrage, thankfully the next blizzard hit and Dragonite dies. Aerodactyl is a pussy and not strong enough to kill even with hyper beam crit (I think) and obviously dies to Surf.

Champ:

Blastoise is 58 and really close to 59,everything else exactly as it was with lance but restored obviously.

Sub on Pidgeot to avoid that stupid sand attack, it goes for feather dance instead though, Surf and it goes for...Sand Attack?????, Surf kills it next turn. Blizzard thankfully hits and puts venusaur at around half while I still have my sub up as it tries to solar beam, relying on Blizzard sucks but it lands and this is dead. On alakazam I rain dance (on handsight this probably wasn't needed lol) first but it breaks my sub with Psychic, Alakazam goes for Reflect???? as surf does about 80% to its hp, full restore and surf does slightly less, it hits me with psychic and the turtle is still not at torrent range lol but the biggest threat in his team is now dead. Rhydon obviously dies to surf. I heal on gyarados because it can't really do much to me anyway as it misses hydro pump???? I sub again and it fails to break with dragon rage, another rain dance and it successfuly breaks the sub this time, blizzard hits and does about 30%, it goes for dragon rage and puts me close to torrent range, the following surf does ~30% and it hits me with dragon rage, I sub to get in torrent range as it breaks it with a crit hydro pump, the next surf finally kills this thing. Arcanine is not really a thread, but I heal just so it doesn't stop the solo with extremespeed which it uses, it dies to the next surf.

TL;DR: Gyarados is the only annoying thing to kill, and only because it has good special bulk since it can't really do much to Blastoise in either of the battles it shows up..
Just because you can be 62 doesn’t mean you should. It’s a clear level advantage. I have no idea the stance on level limits but I believe the general rule is 2-3 over the respective major fights Ace.

Zam is ridiculously broken and should stay in S. Kababra should only be merged if it has functionally the same matchup as Zam.

Your log for Blastoise pretty much told me that it’s not even worth being in S. SubPunch? I mean sure yeah, but just no? No average player is gonna do that. Second you kept swapping out moves for matchups. That’s an issue there.You’ve done a LOT of item cost to get this thing to have such a performance.

Regardless is Nido is common or not, that’s a competitive thing getting a beneficial nature via catching multiples. That isn’t considered generally in a list and having a neutral or non beneficial one doesn’t matter as long as the primary stats aren’t affected too greatly (I.e having an Modest Hitmonlee is bad).
 
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I'm not going to make strict level rules or anything - possible levels are way too fluid to pin down like that, especially depending on your team and especially in such an open-ended region as Kanto - but it definitely does stick out as weird to me when your Pokémon are in the early 60s, talking as someone who does in fact go for all those rare candies every playthrough. Mine usually end up around 57, and if you're talking about 62-66... that's odd.

Having tested out both 'Zam and Kadabra, there's no way the former is coming down any time soon; and Kadabra has just enough issues with both speed and power that it's not quite on the same level to me. I do welcome other runs to prove me wrong however.

I'm not taking specific natures into account unless of course it's locked in by an in-game trade. There's certain things like rare candies to go out of the way for, but I'm not going to have readers of this list run the RNG roulette until they get a decent nature.

All of your points about Moltres are correct, but E is reserved for things that are borderline or literally unusable like Ditto or the late-game level 5 fossils. Moltres comes at Level 50 with STAB Flamethrower. It's not going to be putting in much work, but it's going to be doing something.
 
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Texas Cloverleaf

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Will undertake a run with an end team of Venusaur, Nidoking, Farfetch'd, Golduck, Tauros, Aerodactyl

Goals will be to add data points to Venusaur, Nidoking and Farfetch'd, test Golduck, and determine if Tauros or Aerodactyl are underrepresented
 

Texas Cloverleaf

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Bulbasaur lv 12: Two Vine Whips, two kills.



Ivysaur lv 21: Staryu Water Pulses for 5 damage, confuses, Vine Whip OTKs. Starmie's Swift does just under 25%, self-hit, Swift again, Leech Seed, Swift again, Sleep Powder. Seed is healing for ~half a Swift, Vine Whip lands for ~70% and the KO after the third Leech Seed proc. Clean sweep despite a confusion self-hit.

Nidoking lv 20: Outspeed Staryu, OHKO with Mega Kick. Starmie outspeeds, deals 80%+ with Water Pulse, Rock Tomb does ~25%, then Mega Kick deals about 50% before you fall. Always beats Staryu, never beats Starmie but almost always chips it (accuracy, confusion). Okay matchup given the type disadvantage. If Mega Kick is contested, you still 2HKO with Mega Punch or Double Kick (DK not after a Harden) and survive Water Pulse comfortably).



Farfetch'd is overleveled due to boosted xp as I was attempting to keep Ivysaur and Nidoking in a relevant range for Surge. 26 is consistent with the expected levels I've experienced for a three man team at Surge, assuming you fight all the trainers in the SS Anne and the routes around Vermillion.

Ivysaur lv 26: You can SleepSeed to victory. Alternatively, spam Razor Leaf. Two for Voltorb (plus any Potions), one for Pikachu, three for Raichu. The only attack that does anything of note is Voltorbs Sonicboom. No issues at all, S tier matchup.

Nidoking lv 26: Dig x3. Throw in a Rock Tomb for Pikachu to avoid Static if you like. S tier matchup.

Farfetch'd lv 30: Voltorb and Pikachu go down easily, either to Fury Attack or to boosted Fury Cutters. Raichu can be beaten (Fury Swipes for 4 with a crit is an OHKO) but is dependent on when it decides to Shock Wave you, as it outspeeds and is capable of killing you from a relatively high range. Only an okay matchup as Voltorb and Pikachu are pretty free in general.



Did this one as directly as possible after Surge to keep the levels in check. I typically pick up a fourth team member around this point so levels are still generally in line with my usual for a three man team. Typically average 31.

As a note, after selling unneeded items and having purchased only 3k worth, and having skipped the majority of the trainers between Lavender and Saffron and having not yet gone for Lavender Tower or Rocket Hideout, had the 80k needed to purchase a GC TM after defeating Erika and gym.



Venusaur lv 32: Secret Power 3HKOs Victreebel, outspeeding and putting it to sleep - Acid does 15%. Same deal for Tangela except it can't actually hurt you. Same deal for Vileplume. You get a 3HKO, and You get a 3HKO, and YOU get a 3HKO.

Nidoking lv 33: Mega Kick does not OHKO Victreebel, but MK/Dig does 2HKO, Giga Drain dealing 25% in return. Tangela is 2HKOed by Mega Kick, Giga Drain does 20% back. Similarly 2HKO on Vileplume, though it was able to take me down with Giga Drain due to Stun Spore. Had I healed or Victreebel not used Stun Spore, would have been a clean victory.

Farfetch'd lv 32: Somewhat hilariously Farfetch'd gets hit by the badge level cap here. Aerial Ace OHKOs Victreebel. I used a Swords Dance on Tangela, it missed Poisonpowder, Aerial Ace OHKOs. Vileplume OHKOed by a +2 Aerial Ace. No wasted turns off the level cap, clean sweep.



Went and picked up Psyduck and Tauros immediately after Erika/Lavender Tower so I could back train them on skipped trainers. Slightly underleveled relative to my usual for a five man team, partially due to Farfetch'd going a bit higher (Fighting Gym), partially due to Golduck and especially Tauros being XP sucks at this level 48k/48k/58k/68k/75k for venu/nido/duck/bull/bird respectively. Silph Co NOT cleared at this point.

Venusaur lv 38: Strength is a 3HKO on both Koffings, Sleep Powder makes it free. Muk is a free Leech Seed bot, Strength a 3HKO when you get bored. Strength is about a 5HKO on Weezing but you SleepSeed here anyway to guard against Selfdestruct. Easy sweep so long as you don't get compounding misses off of a Smokescreen.

Nidoking lv 37: Koffing is either 2HKOed with Thrash or 3HKOed with Shock Wave, only attack that does meaningful damage is Selfdestruct (80%). Dig can 2HKO Muk but that's not likely between Minimize and Acid Armor, though you still 3HKO with Dig after two AAs and it can't actually do meaningful damage to you. Second Koffing same as the first. Weezing also the same as the Koffings except it takes a bunch more SWs/Thrashes to kill and its Selfdestruct will OHKO you. Favorable matchup purely on the backs of explosions being the only thing that can actually hurt youl.

Farfetch'd lv 42: Swords Danced twice because Koga is a dumbass who uses Smokescreen against a Keen Eye Pokemon (Sludge did 26/107), clean sweep with Return.

Golduck lv 38: If you beat Sabrina first, Calm Mind makes this free. Otherwise, OHKO both Koffing with Surf, 3HKO Muk with Surf, and 2HKO Weezing with Surf. Barring unlucky poisonings or a Weezing boom, clean sweep.

Tauros lv 38: Koffing's are a 2HKO with Horn Attack, Muk a 3HKO, you won't make it to Weezing before falling to Sludges/poisons. Return likely makes Muk a 2HKO but I gave it to Farfetch'd. Unfavorable matchup.
 
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Bulbasaur lv 12: Two Vine Whips, two kills.



Ivysaur lv 21: Staryu Water Pulses for 5 damage, confuses, Vine Whip OTKs. Starmie's Swift does just under 25%, self-hit, Swift again, Leech Seed, Swift again, Sleep Powder. Seed is healing for ~half a Swift, Vine Whip lands for ~70% and the KO after the third Leech Seed proc. Clean sweep despite a confusion self-hit.

Nidoking lv 20: Outspeed Staryu, OHKO with Mega Kick. Starmie outspeeds, deals 80%+ with Water Pulse, Rock Tomb does ~25%, then Mega Kick deals about 50% before you fall. Always beats Staryu, never beats Starmie but almost always chips it (accuracy, confusion). Okay matchup given the type disadvantage. If Mega Kick is contested, you still 2HKO with Mega Punch or Double Kick (DK not after a Harden) and survive Water Pulse comfortably).



Farfetch'd is overleveled due to boosted xp as I was attempting to keep Ivysaur and Nidoking in a relevant range for Surge. 26 is consistent with the expected levels I've experienced for a three man team at Surge, assuming you fight all the trainers in the SS Anne and the routes around Vermillion.

Ivysaur lv 26: You can SleepSeed to victory. Alternatively, spam Razor Leaf. Two for Voltorb (plus any Potions), one for Pikachu, three for Raichu. The only attack that does anything of note is Voltorbs Sonicboom. No issues at all, S tier matchup.

Nidoking lv 26: Dig x3. Throw in a Rock Tomb for Pikachu to avoid Static if you like. S tier matchup.

Farfetch'd lv 30: Voltorb and Pikachu go down easily, either to Fury Attack or to boosted Fury Cutters. Raichu can be beaten (Fury Swipes for 4 with a crit is an OHKO) but is dependent on when it decides to Shock Wave you, as it outspeeds and is capable of killing you from a relatively high range. Only an okay matchup as Voltorb and Pikachu are pretty free in general.



Did this one as directly as possible after Surge to keep the levels in check. I typically pick up a fourth team member around this point so levels are still generally in line with my usual for a three man team. Typically average 31.

As a note, after selling unneeded items and having purchased only 3k worth, and having skipped the majority of the trainers between Lavender and Saffron and having not yet gone for Lavender Tower or Rocket Hideout, had the 80k needed to purchase a GC TM after defeating Erika and gym.



Venusaur lv 32: Secret Power 3HKOs Victreebel, outspeeding and putting it to sleep - Acid does 15%. Same deal for Tangela except it can't actually hurt you. Same deal for Vileplume. You get a 3HKO, and You get a 3HKO, and YOU get a 3HKO.

Nidoking lv 33: Mega Kick does not OHKO Victreebel, but MK/Dig does 2HKO, Giga Drain dealing 25% in return. Tangela is 2HKOed by Mega Kick, Giga Drain does 20% back. Similarly 2HKO on Vileplume, though it was able to take me down with Giga Drain due to Stun Spore. Had I healed or Victreebel not used Stun Spore, would have been a clean victory.

Farfetch'd lv 32: Somewhat hilariously Farfetch'd gets hit by the badge level cap here. Aerial Ace OHKOs Victreebel. I used a Swords Dance on Tangela, it missed Poisonpowder, Aerial Ace OHKOs. Vileplume OHKOed by a +2 Aerial Ace. No wasted turns off the level cap, clean sweep.



Went and picked up Psyduck and Tauros immediately after Erika/Lavender Tower so I could back train them on skipped trainers. Slightly underleveled relative to my usual for a five man team, partially due to Farfetch'd going a bit higher (Fighting Gym), partially due to Golduck and especially Tauros being XP sucks at this level 48k/48k/58k/68k/75k for venu/nido/duck/bull/bird respectively. Silph Co NOT cleared at this point.

Venusaur lv 38: Strength is a 3HKO on both Koffings, Sleep Powder makes it free. Muk is a free Leech Seed bot, Strength a 3HKO when you get bored. Strength is about a 5HKO on Weezing but you SleepSeed here anyway to guard against Selfdestruct. Easy sweep so long as you don't get compounding misses off of a Smokescreen.

Nidoking lv 37: Koffing is either 2HKOed with Thrash or 3HKOed with Shock Wave, only attack that does meaningful damage is Selfdestruct (80%). Dig can 2HKO Muk but that's not likely between Minimize and Acid Armor, though you still 3HKO with Dig after two AAs and it can't actually do meaningful damage to you. Second Koffing same as the first. Weezing also the same as the Koffings except it takes a bunch more SWs/Thrashes to kill and its Selfdestruct will OHKO you. Favorable matchup purely on the backs of explosions being the only thing that can actually hurt youl.

Farfetch'd lv 42: Swords Danced twice because Koga is a dumbass who uses Smokescreen against a Keen Eye Pokemon (Sludge did 26/107), clean sweep with Return.

Golduck lv 38: If you beat Sabrina first, Calm Mind makes this free. Otherwise, OHKO both Koffing with Surf, 3HKO Muk with Surf, and 2HKO Weezing with Surf. Barring unlucky poisonings or a Weezing boom, clean sweep.

Tauros lv 38: Koffing's are a 2HKO with Horn Attack, Muk a 3HKO, you won't make it to Weezing before falling to Sludges/poisons. Return likely makes Muk a 2HKO but I gave it to Farfetch'd. Unfavorable matchup.
It seems Venusaur has about the same output as mine, granted I didn’t give it Strength as the Move Deleter isn’t in FRLG and I plan to SunnyBeam. In the Erika and Koga Match ups it seems the KO range is one less depending (Ivy vs Venu power for Erika and Strength for Koga.)
 
It seems Venusaur has about the same output as mine, granted I didn’t give it Strength as the Move Deleter isn’t in FRLG and I plan to SunnyBeam. In the Erika and Koga Match ups it seems the KO range is one less depending (Ivy vs Venu power for Erika and Strength for Koga.)
The Move Deleter is in Fuschia City.
 

Texas Cloverleaf

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It seems Venusaur has about the same output as mine, granted I didn’t give it Strength as the Move Deleter isn’t in FRLG and I plan to SunnyBeam. In the Erika and Koga Match ups it seems the KO range is one less depending (Ivy vs Venu power for Erika and Strength for Koga.)
My go-to moveset is simply Razor Leaf / Strength / Leech Seed / Sleep Powder, even for the end game, doesn't really need anything more than that and Strength is a very reasonable physical move to teach it, only outclassed by Return. I prefer it even to Earthquake on Venusaur for better coverage against Flyings and Koffings. Though of course SunnyBeam is always fun.

Planning to get the rest of the run done today still, also planning to nominate Aerodactyl to rise. I think my run is likely to show that the 'late' acquisition and low level on gain aren't that big of a deal so long as you've planned ahead that you wanted to use it.
 
Yeah, my bad. I think it’s RS that doesn’t have him? I remember a deleter in Lilycove but that might be Emerald only? I know it was a Gen 3 game he was absent in. Granted I’ve gotten somethings mixed up in FRLG already (Hyper Beam for example)
Nah, every Gen 3 game (even Colosseum and XD) have him. I just figured you'd mixed it up due to Gen 1 not having one.
 

Texas Cloverleaf

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Turboed my way down to Cinnabar, avoiding trainers so I could pick up Aerodactyl here, gave it the Rock Slide tutor. Becomes usable around level 11 in the right matchups, from around level 18 it can take on Silph Co. enemies on its own in the right matchups (Ratata/Raticate/Zubat/Golbat/Drowzee/Ekans/Arbok, avoiding the other Poisons, Sandshrew, and Machokes - avoid the Revenge using Machokes until the mid-high 20s).

Venusaur lv 40: Outspeed and OHKO Kadabra with Strength. Outspeed Mr.Mime and put it to sleep, then 2HKO with Strength. Alakazam comes in, tank the Psychic (8/124 remaining) and Sleep it, then 2HKO with Strength - however Sabrina does have a Full Heal to use here, she did vs me and immediately died using a Future Sight. Strength is a 3HKO vs Venomoth but the fight is trivial. Similar to Farfetch'd, capable of being a clean sweep if Alakazam fucks around, sometimes you lose to it instead. Guaranteed two kills, sometimes a sweep. Not bad for the type disadvantage.

Nidoking lv 40: Outspeed and OHKO Kadabra with Dig. OHKO Mr. Mime with Hyper Beam. Get revenge killed by Alakazam. There are alternative lines including ones where you don't Hyper Beam Mr.Mime and can kill Alakazam, but Zam always comes third and always can OHKO with Psychic so I don't grant credit for those. Venomoth is trivial.

Farfetch'd lv 44: Capable of being a clean sweep as you claim OHKOs on every mon. Kadabra and Alakazam do both outspeed though, so if you take damage from Kadabra from Psybeam or Future Sight, Zam will KO from a high range with Psychic. If not, you comfortably eat a Psychic from Zam for the win. Good matchup overall.

Golduck lv 40: 2HKO Kadabra with Surf while it CMs. 2HKO Mr.Mime with Surf. 2HKO Venomoth with Surf. Sometimes 2HKO Zam. Very RNG dependent, sometimes you get to Zam at half health and it OHKOs with Psychic, sometimes you get to Zam with full health and it CMs and 2HKOs before you 3HKO, sometimes you get confusion haxed and Mr. Mime kills you, sometimes Alakazam fucks around with Future Sight and you get the sweep. A solid matchup but far from a convincing one.

Tauros lv 40: OHKO Kadabra with Horn Attack. 2HKO Mr.Mime while it Calm Minds. 2HKO Venomoth while it Psybeams for negligible damage. Outspeed and 2HKO Alakazam while it Calm Minds - bull is specially bulkier than Aero, Psybeam+Zam Psychic would not be a kill. Complete stomp by Tauros.

Aerodactyl lv 35: OHKO Kadabra with Wing Attack. 2HKO Mr.Mime with anything while it Calm Minds. OHKO Venomoth with Rock Slide. Outspeed and 2HKO Alakazam with anything while it Calm Minds. Considering flinch chance, Ancientpower proc odds, and being underleveled, unquestionable S tier performance. Re-ran for damage checks, Mr. Mime dealt 33/111 with Psybeam, Alakazam dealt 79/111 with Psychic. Fantastic showing.



The water route trainers either side of Cinnabar and the Seafoam Islands come here, as does Pokemon Mansion.

Venusaur lv 44: Outspeed and Sleep Powder Growlith, then 2HKO with Strength. Rinse and repeat for Ponyta. You may need to heal on a sleep turn if they get an early wake. Rapidash is a 3HKO, thus we turn to SleepSeed, Fire Blast does around half but Leech Seed healing ensures that you stay healthy, particularly given turns that may be wasted by Blaine using Full Heals or Potions. Although you outspeed Arcanine, its Fire Blast is nearly a OHKO and thus you can't outheal Fire Blasts during sleep turns like the previous three enemies. Important to note that RNG plays a large role here, burns or consecutive misses are crippling (you can typically afford to tank one miss).

Nidoking lv 42: OHKO Growlithe with Dig. OHKO Ponyta with Dig. 2HKO Rapidash with Dig, eating a Fire Blast for half. Poke Acranine for a third with Dig and die to Fire Blast.

Farfetch'd lv 44: Swords Dance and kill Growlith and Ponyta, die to Rapidash. This is the point where Farfetch'd begins to clearly fall off.

Golduck lv 40: Either 4 Surfs and a CM or 5 Surfs equals a clean sweep.

Tauros lv 44: See Nidoking's entry and replace Dig with Thrash.

Aerodactyl lv 40: OHKO Growlithe with Ancientpower. 3HKO Arcanine with Rock Slide after the second Intimidate before he can 3HKO back with Fire Blast. 2HKO both Ponyta and Rapidash, Ponyta can be done with Ancientpower. You *can* lose this if you miss a Rock Slide vs Arcanine and he never misses and you never flinch and you never got an Ancientpower boost. If you ever flinch or boost you cannot lose. Clean sweep under typical circumstances.



Venusaur lv 45: OHKO Rhyhorn. OHKO Dugtrio. SleepSeed Nidoqueen who dleas 30% on an EQ, 2HKO after Seed damage. Repeat for Nidoking. OHKO Rhyhorn. Venu smash.

Nidoking lv 45: Point of note, I did not teach this Nidoking Surf, Surf trivializes both Rhyhorns. Megahorn OHKOs Dugtrio. Nidoqueen and Nidoking OHKO with Earthquake if oyu go for Dig, thus you can beat one with Surf while eating an EQ.

Farfetch'd lv 46: SD twice OHKO both Rhyhorns with Steel Wing taking a Take Down in the process. Eat a Slash from Dugtrio and OHKO. Eat Nidoqueens Body Slam and OHKO. Fall to Nidoking. Better matchup than expected.

Golduck lv 44: 5 Surfs, win.

Tauros lv 45: 2HKO Rhyhorn with Iron Tail. 2HKO Nidoqueen with Thrash, it deals 60% back. Punch Nidoking for 60%, then fall. If not facing the Nidos, also capable of OHKOing Dugtrio and 2HKOing the other Rhyhorn. Solid matchup.

Aerodactyl lv 45: Possibly the only favorable matchup a Rhyhorn has ever had, you lose to Rock Blast and can't hit through the resists. You do OHKO Dugtrio however and comfortably 3HKO both Nidoking and Nidoqueen with Wing Attack while all three cannot touch you. A weirdly inverted matchup, but stomps the actual threats, so I'd judge it a positive one.



Dumped my 8 Rare Candies into the team prior to this fight to bring everyone up to the same level, some minor grinding necessary to scale up to 50 (10 total levels over four mons).


Venusaur lv 50: Razor Leaf is juuuuust a 3HKO on Dewgong so we turn to SleepSeed, Ice Beam does right around half in return. If Safeguard is up Slowbro can stall you with Amnesia but Leech Seed is big healing here, otherwise Sleep Powder trivializes. Lapras is the standard 3HKO=SleepSeed, tanking an Ice Beam if necessary. Rinse and repeat for Jynx. Cloyster is sometimes OHKOed by Razor Leaf. You can lose this with bad sleep rolls but generally speaking shouldn't be a difficult sweep.

Nidoking lv 50: No. Fail to 2HKO Dewgong with Thunderbolt, 2HKOed in return.

Farfetch'd lv 50: No. Outsped and OHKOed by Dewgong.

Golduck lv 50: You outright cannot lose to the first four Pokemon because Calm Mind is a move but its also a pain in the ass to get through them given Slowbro resists everything you have and has Yawn and Dewgong likes to freeze. Lapras can be beat with Brick Break but you are at risk of getting parafuse haxed. Matchup is technically good but not adviseable.

Tauros lv 50: Bad matchup. Only a 3HKO with Thrash on Dewgong, Cloyster even less, and between Ice Beams and confusion and Potions you go down quicker than Dewgong does. Capable of mop-up duty and a clean snipe on Jynx, however.

Aerodactyl lv 50: Weirdly favorable because of dumb AI. Dewgong goes for Hail as you 2HKO, Cloyster goes for Spikes as you 2HKO, Jynx is OHKOed, and Lapras is 2HKOed, and for some reason she sends in Slowbro last who is a 4HKO. Three and a half kills guaranteed, four if you get a flinch despite being OHKOed by any STAB. Weird.



Venusaur lv 51: Clean sweep. Razor Leaf for Onixes, none of the Fighters can hit you hard, you have SleepSeed and 3HKO the Hitmons/4HKO Machamp. Easy game.

Nidoking lv 50: Onixes are trivial if you have Surf or Earthquake, losing otherwise. Power falters, cannot 2HKO any of the Fighters. Poor matchup.

Farfetch'd lv 50: Loses to everything, outsped by the fighters without a Rock Tomb drop.

Golduck lv 50: OHKOs both Onixes but cannot set up, falls to the other three 1v1.

Tauros lv 50: Beats the Onixes with Earthquake for an easy 2HKO, limited to mop up duty against the other three.

Aerodactyl lv 50: Can't touch the Onixes unless you give it Earthquake. Cleanly 2HKOs any of the fighters but can only sometimes take two attacks in return (i.e. not Machamp's Cross Chop).



Venusaur lv 51: Very slow fight. As long as you land the first Leech Seed vs Gengar you can beat everything she has except Golbat, none of the others can do significant enough damage to outpace SleepSeed - Arbok can threaten with Sludge Bomb on a miss, though. The definitive example of Venusaur beating what should be a poor matchup on the back of SleepSeed.

Nidoking lv 50: Mine cannot hit the ghosts, though you can teach this Shadow Ball if you want an option. Stomps Golbat with Thunderbolt and Arbok with Ground STAB, though.

Farfetch'd lv 50: You beat the first Gengar and Golbat with potion support (Toxic, CRay), but Arbok stops you, outspeeds and 2HKOs with Sludge while you fail to OHKO with +3 Return.

Golduck lv 50: Does require Full Restores due to Toxic, Confuse Ray, etc, but clean sweeps at +3.

Tauros lv 50: Beats Arbok cleanly with Earthquake, beats Golbat cleanly if you don't get confused, cannot effectively fight the Gengars - hoping for Iron Tail hits won't cut it. Does beat Haunter with Iron Tail though.

Aerodactyl lv 50: Avoid Arbok because Intimidate plus Iron Tail are a pain in the ass. Aside from that, absolultely stomps. Outspeeds, 2HKOs everything, flinch chance, Shadow Punch/Ball only a 3HKO. Depending on CRay/Hypnosis RNG, may require a Full Heal.



Venusaur lv 51: Outclasses Gyarados, its best attack is Dragon Rage which barely outdamages Leech Seed. Dragonite comes in next, you actually both outspeed and tank a Wing Attack from full, thus you can win with Sleep Seed - with a Potion to recover from the initial hit as your -1 Strength is pitiful. Aerodactyl is similarly tanked on the Wing Attacks but can threaten a revenge kill, best avoided. Neither Dragonair can touch you, 25% from an Outrage, barely outdamaging Leech Seed.

Nidoking lv 50: Thunderbolt donks Gyarados in two, but Aerodactyl will comfortably 2HKO you with a Hyper Beam on the second shot. Can 1v1 one Dragonair with Ground stab but not two, and cannot beat Dragonite as Outrage is a clean 2HKO.

Farfetch'd lv 50: No. You lose to everything. Gyara Hyper Beam, Dragonair Thunder Wave, Outrage, Aerodactyl in general.

Golduck lv 50: Gyarados Hyper Beam does around 60%, thus with Potion support you have free reign to set up Calm Minds and cleanly sweep, Aero outspeeds but does not threaten a 2HKO/crit.

Tauros lv 50: Avoid Gyarados and Aerodactyl. Thrash 2HKOs the Dragonairs, Outrage does similar but less damage as it does to Aerodactyl. Dragonite 2HKOs with Outrage while you do not 2HKO in return.

Aerodactyl lv 50: Gyarados can't actually threaten you so you're free to spam Ancientpower for boost procs - 3HKO after Intimidate. Other Aerodactyl obviously outspeeds and kills first unless you get the AP proc. Dragonairs are both a 3HKO with Rock Slide but their Outrage ranges under a third so you have the freedom to Full Heal the Thunder Waves. Dragonite just misses the 2HKO due to Sitrus while Outrage 2HKOes in return. Overall, very good matchup considering the level disparity.



Venusaur lv 51: Avoid Pidgeot (though you can beat this with SleepSeed), Alakazam, and Charizard. Razor Leaf for the clean OHKO on Rhydon, dominate Gyarados in the same way as Lance, then get into a slap fight with Egg as you both spam Sleep Powder and Strength/Egg Bomb - does require a Potion but you have the inevitability.

Nidoking lv 50: Thunderbolt is a 3HKO on Pidgeot while it cannot 2HKO back, Rhydon is an avoid, Megahorn is an OHKO on Exeggutor, Alakazam outspeeds and OHKOs, you can 2HKO Gyarados with Thunderbolt but it OHKOs back with Hydro Pump, Charizard outspeeds and 2HKOs while you only 3HKO with Thunderbolt.

Farfetch'd lv 50: You lose 1v1 to Pidgeot. To Pidgeot. Hilariously on two occasions in testing other stuff it did tank Zam's Psychic and OHKO back with Return so that's neat, though it did get cleanly killed by Psychic in other instances.

Golduck lv 51: You can set up to +3 without Pidgeot killing you, you require +4 to kill Alakazam. Thus, clean sweep with one Potion used assuming you don't get crit.

Tauros lv 50: You can kill the Pidgeot with difficulty and pick off weakend opponents, but otherwise the level disparity is too much to win 1v1 matchups.

Aerodactyl lv 50: Outspeed and 2HKO Pidgeot, switch out of Gyarados, OHKO Charizard, switch out of Rhydon, 3HKO Exeggutor with Wing Attack through Giga Drain (slower 3HKO), and finally outspeed and 2HKO Alakazam, tanking a Psychic. Aerodactyl is a beast.


Got tired at the end due to doing this in one sitting so the detail drops off, but honestly there wasn't a lot of detail to actually go into for the final matchups.


Final Team

Venusaur lv 52, Bashful, Overgrow
160 / 111 / 114 / 125 / 127 / 105
Razor Leaf / Strength / Leech Seed / Sleep Powder

Nidoking lv 50, Serious, Poison Point
146 / 122 / 102 / 97 / 84 / 104
Megahorn / Dig / Thunderbolt / Hyper Beam

Farfetch'd lv 50 @ Stick, Adamant, Keen Eye
123 / 95 / 73 / 67 / 78 / 84
Return / Fly / Swords Dance / Steel Wing

Golduck lv 51, Bashful, Damp
155 / 101 / 98 / 112 / 102 / 111
Surf / Ice Beam / Calm Mind / Brick Break

Tauros lv 50, Careful, Intimidate
151 / 126 / 107 / 49 / 97 / 141
Thrash / Iron Tail / Fire Blast / Earthquake

Aerodactyl lv 51, Bashful, Pressure
159 / 127 / 85 / 78 / 97 / 148
Rock Slide / Wing Attack / Ancientpower / Double-Edge


Nominations

Venusaur for A tier with an argument for S tier if Squirtle is there. Bulbasaur is the best starter, straight up. My logs back up my claim earlier in the thread that if you aren't specifically Charizard, Alakazam, or Arcanine (or Agatha's Golbat), Venusaur can and will beat you. Venusaur doesn't take the typical approach to dominance of killing anything in sight, instead it takes the stance of inevitability. It may take some time, but Venusaur will kill you. And sometimes just punch you in the face just the same. Very telling that it took the highest stat in each defensive stat in addition to special attack, on a not overly frail team.

Nidoran-M to remain A tier, performance is closer to B than to S. Nidoking falls victim to the classic pitfall of simply having too low stats to be dominant. Despite its early game dominance it begins to fall off around Blaine and has only a handful of good targets against the Elite Four, something I personally weigh heavily against or in favor of a mon. It clearly justifies its place in A, but just as clearly demonstrates that it can never be S.

Farfetch'd to remain in D tier. Farfetch'd is Nidoking to a greater extreme. Carries some surprisingly impressive performances in the middle and early game but falls off extremely hard from Blaine onwards. Simply does not have the stats to perform against anything in the late game, including type advantages. Fun mon to use, but not one to be recommended.

Psyduck to rise to A tier. My logs speak for themselves, Calm Mind is broken. Clean sweeps everything except Lorelei and Bruno. Requires a shade too much support and comes too late to make any real argument for S, but a clear and convincing A tier performance.

Tauros to remain in D tier. Very disappointing, nowhere near as good as I had remembered. Not much to say beyond what the logs show, simply didn't put up enough of a performance to justify any kind of rise. Capable of contributing in any fight, but not a sweeper.

Aerodactyl to rise to C tier with an argument for B (similar to Slaking in the RSE thread) Frankly Aerodactyl had an A tier performance if not S. Absolutely dominated several matchups and showed out well even in the ones you'd think would be unfavorable. However, one cannot simply hand wave away the acquisition cost. Coming at level 5 is undoubtedly a burden, as is coming after the sixth gym. However, as my logs show if you plan ahead to use Aerodactyl and make a point to acquire it immediately after defeating Koga, it is able to train itself up in the Silph Co. tower and begin dominating matchups even from a level disadvantage. It is powerful, outspeeds anything in the game, has an excellent typing, a fantastic STAB in Rock Slide, and terrific matchups. It would not look out of place in B, and in my eyes has clearly justified a rise to at least C tier.
 
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Nah, every Gen 3 game (even Colosseum and XD) have him. I just figured you'd mixed it up due to Gen 1 not having one.
I knew Gen 1 didn't have one. Gen 2 did but required you to clear Stadium 2 with the Transfer Pak.

Aerodactyl to rise to C tier with an argument for B (similar to Slaking in the RSE thread) Frankly Aerodactyl had an A tier performance if not S. Absolutely dominated several matchups and showed out well even in the ones you'd think would be unfavorable. However, one cannot simply hand wave away the acquisition cost. Coming at level 5 is undoubtedly a burden, as is coming after the sixth gym. However, as my logs show if you plan ahead to use Aerodactyl and make a point to acquire it immediately after defeating Koga, it is able to train itself up in the Silph Co. tower and begin dominating matchups even from a level disadvantage. It is powerful, outspeeds anything in the game, has an excellent typing, a fantastic STAB in Rock Slide, and terrific matchups. It would not look out of place in B, and in my eyes has clearly justified a rise to at least C tier.
Honestly I don't see it. Not saying that I don't believe you, but it's super out of the way for it to become good. While C is a middle ground, I think sequence breaking, if not already established, should be discussed. This can allow a lot of Pokemon to be better whether it be the Bulk Up TM in Silph which allows all Fightings to go up a Tier if obtained as early as possible (4th Gym and careful planning with random Rockets), Articuno and Zapdos at the 6th Gym, Safari Zone mons, or even the fossils all benefit from a sequence break to list a few. If we want to use each mon to the best of their abilites, then a sequence break has to pretty much occur.

Also minor nitpick, you stated after 6 badges when its 5. You even say Koga right after.
 

Texas Cloverleaf

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Yes, I intended to distinguish between the typical path of arriving to Cinnabar after completing the mainland business and defeating Sabrina as opposed to going for Cinnabar immediately after Koga. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough on that mark.

Regarding sequence breaking, the only broken sequence is the addition of the Route between Pallet and Cinnabar before fighting Sabrina, I don't see that as too much of a concern myself, given all the trainers on that route are missable. Only material cost is the need for a Fly user.
 
As I said before, Kanto is a very open-ended region. I consider sequence breaking fine because, well... it's just part of the game. If someone wants to get fossils or Zapdos after 4 badges then so be it. At most it's just something to put in the 'additional notes' section -- I'm hardly expecting any reader to follow a strict sequence of events in regards to how they play just so we can rank Articuno lower. I'm only vetoing things that trivialise the list like X items or overlevelling; sequence breaking is good and kind of what the game's all about at some point.

Regardless, thank you very much for the logs Texas! If you are doing full logs I'd prefer the rival fights be included, but just from what is there I get a very good image and I'm being turned on Venusaur.
 

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Doing a shitmon run of

Pidgeot - D
Wigglytuff - D
Seaking - D
Venomoth - D
Tangela - C
Mr. Mime - A

Pre-E4 assessment is that Pidgeot is correct in D; Wigglytuff is shit and could be E but I guess it could be D too; Seaking is surprisingly decent and could be C, but E4 performance I'm betting pulls it down; Venomoth is pretty lit, Venonat is shit but the Moth does work, bump to C; Tangela is fair in C; and Mr. Mime could easily be S.



Sequencing on this is a bit weird to accodomate overleveling the single Pokemon for Brock. Levels are overall higher than usual for this run, attributable to no high investment mons and a trade Mr. Mime.


Brock

Pidgeotto (20): This was the first level I was able to beat Brock at, the usual Sand-Attack shenanigans. Ironically by this level its faster and arguably better to simply spam Gust and get in heavy damage before Defense Curls add up.



Misty

Pidgeotto (23): Gust 2HKOs Staryu but barely 4HKOs Starmie, Water Pulse easily outdamages.

Wigglytuff (20): Mega Kick OHKOs Staryu through Harden. 2HKOs Starmie. Starmie does 3HKO you however, so any miss or self-hit from confusion spells doom.



No grinding at all, boosted xp goes a long way.

Lt. Surge

Pidgeotto (27): Two Quick Attacks for Voltorb, one for Pikachu, two for Raichu, you take a Raichu Shock Wave for around 70%

Wigglytuff (27): Mega Punch, Mega Punch, Mega Kick. Surge is easy game tbh when you only have three mons, just too much experience available on the SS Anne and neighbouring routes - rightly so.

Mr. Mime (28): Four Psychics=stomp



Erika

Skipped ahead to pick up Goldeen and Venonat cause my team of three was overlevelled, was still overleveled when I came back, invalidating her logs as a result



Koga:

Pidgeot (38): Can reasonably beat two, Koffing is a 2HKO with Fly, Muk is a 3HKO. Can get past the second Koffing but need luck to not be poisoned/boomed on by that point.

Wigglytuff (40): Koffing is a 2HKO but you can't beat Muk, Return is a 4HKO and you can't beat poison+potion+minimize.

Mr. Mime (38): OHKO both Koffing, 2HKO Weezing and Muk both. Sweep if either Muk or Weezing don't use Sludge.

Seaking (38): Either Koffing is an OHKO but you need luck to be able to Surf past Muk.

Venomoth (39): Psychic OHKOs both Koffing, 2HKOs Muk and Weezing, only boom can hurt you, sweep otherwise.



Sabrina

Pidgeot (42): OHKO Kadabra with Fly, 2HKO Mr. Mime with Fly, OHKO Venomoth with Fly, 2HKO Alakazam with Fly. Room for this to go wrong between Future Sights, Reflect, Barrier, chip damage, Zam Psychics. Return would make it much more consistent though.

Wigglytuff (43): OHKO Kadabra through Reflect with Return, waste a turn breaking Reflect with Brick Break, then 2HKO Mr. Mime through Barrier, 2HKO Venomoth with Return but take enough damage in the process that Zam can kill, then OHKO Zam with Return as it goes for Future Sight.

Mr. Mime (43): Churns through Kadabra and Mr. Mime with repeated Magical Leafs through potions while they do mostly futile damage and OHKOs Venomoth with Psychic but takes enough to attrition to fall to Alakazam. Winnable vs Zam with Potion use.

Seaking (43): Horn Attack OHKOs Kadabra on a CM, outspeeds and 2HKOs Mr. Mime with Horn Attack+Surf over a Barrier, clean 2HKO on Venomoth with Surf, just barely misses the 2HKO with Horn Attack on Alakazam as it misses the OHKO with +1 Psychic. Close but no cigar, much better performance than expected.

Venomoth (43): Outspeed and 2HKO Kadabra with Aerial Ace past a Calm Mind, beats Mr. Mime with a 3HKO Aerial as long as you Sleep Powder it first so it can't put up Barrier and pass to Zam. Zam OHKOs with Psychic once it comes out.

Tangela (42): No Bueno. Kadabra CMs, Venomoth stonewalls, low SpD. Bad matchup.



Blaine

Pidgeot (43): Fly past the first two but fall to Rapidash, no tricks available. Intimidate hurts too hard.

Wigglytuff (43): See Pidgeot, using Return.

Mr. Mime (45): Two CM, Psychic sweep. Growlithe is lucky if it 4HKOs.

Seaking (43): Clean sweep. One Surf for Growlithe and Ponyta, two for Rapidash easily eating a Fire Blast, two for Arcanine eating two more Fire Blasts in the process.

Venomoth (43): Beats 1-3 of Growlithe, Ponyta, and Rapidash depending on sleep luck, outspeed each and using Sleep Powder, then using Psychic for a 2, 2, and 3HKO respectively. Can take one Fire Blast from the first two.

Tangela (45): Nope. Can't get past Growlithe at this point as Sleep Powder is locked to Two Island.



Giovanni

Pidgeot (47): Weirdly, beat through both Rhyhorn on 3HKOs, then OHKOed Dugtrio with Fly, tanking well all the way, then crippled Nidoqueen with Featherdance before falling, possibly threatening a 3HKO if it had avoided paralysis.

Wigglytuff (47): Nope. Takes too much damage, is too slow, does too little.

Mr. Mime (45): Clean sweep. Three Magical Leafs, two Psychics, gg.

Seaking (46): Eat two Earthquake's from Dugtrio and Nidoqueen, Surf for OHKOs on all except Queen as a 2HKO.

Venomoth (47): Clean sweep. Giga Drain OHKOs both Rhyhorn, just misses the OHKO on Dug but heals off most of the Earthquake damage, Psychic 2HKOs Nidoqueen tanking the Earthquake comfortably, same goes for Nidoking, both also outsped and vulnerable to Sleep Powder if you're iffy on your health.

Tangela (47): Clean sweep. Rhyhorn is free to set up on, even at -6 speed I swept through at +3 taking hits from everything and still ending on 42/131 HP. - SunnyBeam to be clear
 
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Mr. Mime is definitely a Pokémon I've considered S before as it's basically Kadabra with boosted exp, but just never had enough experience with it to judge. Could easily see it there depending on how the E4 goes (though I assume it's at worst very comparable to zam). Wigglytuff I'm keeping at D; E is reserved for stuff that's basically unusable for starters and your logs alone prove it surprisingly has some decent matchups earlygame.

Seaking I didn't think about moving up to C though can see just due to water being that decent; but your Moth is intriguing me a lot with how much work it's putting in. Where do you think it'd end up?
 

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Boosted xp is just the cherry on top of a sick mon. High base stats early on, upgrades to Psybeam and Psychic at appropriate levels, can team support or just use Shock Wave for an attacking set. CM and Sleep Powder are the most broken moves in this gen and a CM getting Psychic is always strong.

Biggest thing with Wigglytuff is I'm expecting its E4 to be trash tier given its stats and recent performance, which I weigh heavily. Can definitely do fine early game.

Seaking is literally just Surf=good but seems to be putting in sufficient work on the back of that.

Moth I won't nominate higher than C. Comes firmly in the late-middle game, Venonat is complete trash and it isn't a dominating mon. That said, it gets Sleep Powder which is automatically good, Psychic is a great primary move and it gets surprisingly decent coverage with Giga Drain, Aerial Ace, and later Silver Wind. Puts in a very respectable effort, despite not being top tier material.
 

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Lorelei

Pidgeot (51): 2HKOs Dewgong with Double-Edge if it doesn't attack back and cleanly snipes Jynx. Avoid the others.

Wigglytuff (51): 3HKO on Dewgong with Brick Break taking about half back. 2HKOs Cloyster with Fire Blast, didn't attack back. Loses to the rest.

Mr. Mime (50): Requires +6 to OHKO Lapras but can set up to such against Dewgong. Sometimes needs a Potion for the clean sweep as you typically end in the red after Dewgong and 2HKO Jynx at +6 with ML/SW - If Dewgong opens Safeguard+Hail you do not need a Potion.

Seaking (50): Horn Attack is a 7HKO on Dewgong. Can't contribute here short of poking Jynx.

Venomoth (50): Can beat Dewgong after a long fight if you don't miss SPs but its not reliable. Clean 2HKO on Cloyster. 3HKOs Slowbro either cleanly with SP assistance or taking 60% after Gigas if not. Outspeeds Jynx which allows it to Sleep Powder and 2HKO with Silver Wind. Outspeeds and sleep Lapras but can't really kill it, only chip.

Tangela (50): Outsped and OHKOed by Dewgong. If you come in on Cloyster instead, you can happily SunnyBeam both it and Slowbro and chunk Lapras for 60-70 before falling.



Bruno

Pidgeot (51): You lose to Hitmonchan so.

Wigglytuff (51): lolno. You can kill the Onixes with Water Pulse if you somehow don't have a Surfer I guess?

Mr. Mime (51): If you avoid Rock Tomb you go +1 and sweep. Otherwise you have to switch out of Hitmonlee to avoid Mega Kick, but still OHKO Hitmonchan and both Onixes, and 2HKO Machamp.

Seaking (50): Obv kills the Onixes. Can kill a Hitmon with a crit or a miss on a 3HKO, getting 2HKOed in return.

Venomoth (50): OHKO both Onix with Giga Drain, outspeeds and sleeps Hitmonchan then 2HKOs with Psychic, same thing but a 3HKO on Machamp after Sitrus, same as Machamp for Hitmonlee. Lee and Champ can 2HKO but not OHKO.

Tangela (50): Sequencing is a little weird on this one due to Roar, but you can engineer a clean sweep. Sunny Day turn one, then Sleep Powder, then Growth twice, then OHKO Onix, Sun fades, Hitmonchan comes out, Sleep Powder, Growth, Sunny Day, sweep at +3. You can take multiple hits if needed, short of multiple Iron Tail drops.



Agatha

Pidgeot (51): Too many issues to do much here. You can contribute by sniping but the Agatha lottery works against something with the power/bulk of Pidgeot.

Wigglytuff (51): hahahaha no (can sometimes beat Golbat if it doesn't crit on one of its several Air Cutters and you don't hit yourself in confusion)

Mr. Mime (51): +1 CM sweeps. Nearly swept at +0 but at this level Golbat and Arbok sometimes just barely live, sometimes are OHKOd. The second Gengar does outspeed and can be threatening with Hypnosis.

Seaking (50): Same deal as Pidgeot but a bit better because the STAB isnt a two turn move.

Venomoth (50): First Gengar is evasion based but Psychic is a 2HKO, Golbat outspeeds and although you can tank an Air Cutter and Sleep Powdeer it you probably shouldn't, outspeed and sleep Arbok and 2HKO, Haunter is a stomp but the last Gengar outspeeds and sleeps you first before 3HKOing, if it misses you do 2HKO with Psychic.

Tangela (51): hahahaha no



Lance

Pidgeot (51): Beats a Dragonair, no more.

Wigglytuff (51): Beats a Dragonair, no more.

Mr. Mime (52): Beats Gyarados and the Dragonairs.

Seaking (50): Its time to shine. 2HKO all of Dragonair, Dragonite, and Aerodactyl. Can live at least one hit sometimes two depending on the attacker. Will need a potion to take on all four.

Venomoth (50): Beats the Dragonairs but no more.

Tangela (51): Comfortably beats Gyarados but no more. Could beat Aerodactyl in the right circumstances but Wing Attack is a 2HKO and it outspeeds in Sun so can't afford bad damage rolls or potions.

tl;dr Lance's Dragonairs are bad



Champion

Pidgeot (51): Nope. Best case scenario you get to snipe a weakened poke. You even lose to Egg.

Wigglytuff (51): Nope. Worse than Pidgeot. You can snipe a damaged Zam, that's about it.

Mr. Mime (53): Can 1v1 Pidgeot but not advisable. Can 1v1 Alakazam with potion support. 1v1s Blastoise. OHKOs Rhydon. Avoid Egg and Arcanine unless already set up (Blastoise or Zam - Arcanine can also bet set up on and beaten if its attack is reduced.).

Seaking (50): 1v1s Pidgeot if you don't get Acc haxed but this matchup is not advised, 2HKOs Arcanine cleanly, OHKOs Rhydon, avoid the rest.

Venomoth (50): Outspeed egg sleep and 2HKO with Silver Wind, outspeed rhydon sleep and 2HKO with Giga Drain, avoid the rest.

Tangela (51): Matchup pick. Stomps Rhydon and Blastoise, avoid the rest.



Final team:

Pidgeot lv 51, Mild, Keen Eye
163 / 109 / 86 / 97 / 95 / 119
Fly / Double-Edge / Steel Wing / Featherdance

Wigglytuff lv 51, Jolly, Cute Charm
221 / 93 / 60 / 90 / 58 / 75
Return / Strength / Brick Break / Fire Blast

Mr. Mime lv 53, Timid, Soundproof
119 / 58 / 90 / 127 / 145 / 135
Psychic / Calm Mind / Magical Leaf / Shock Wave

Seaking lv 51, Bold, Water Veil
150 / 98 / 100 / 90 / 98 / 90
Surf / Ice Beam / Horn Attack / Waterfall

Venomoth lv 51, Hardy, Shield Dust
143 / 88 / 73 / 108 / 88 / 113
Psychic / Silver Wind / Giga Drain / Sleep Powder

Tangela lv 51, Relaxed, Chlorophyll
139 / 78 / 146 / 118 / 65 / 74
Solarbeam / Sunny Day / Growth / Sleep Powder



Nominations


Pidgeot: Remain in D. Not a lot to say here, you've all run it. It's always passable, often disappointing, occasionally puts in a surprising performance. Low tier, but usable.

Wigglytuff: Fall to E. It's clearly better than the current batch of E mons (except AERODACTYL which needs to move), but its really really bad. Has a fine early game but falls off fast and hard. Those stats are absolutely horrendous. Even with the monster HP stat it gets 2HKOed by everything and doesn't hit nearly hard enough to compensate.

Mr. Mime: Rise to S tier. Logs speak for themselves, Calm Mind is broken. It's not Alakazam level, nor RSE Gardevoir, but its only a notch below and imo its performance clearly demonstrates a level of dominance that justifies top tier. Significantly better than Kadabra. Additional perks, fast experience gain and always a beneficial nature. My moveset should have had Reflect over probably Shock Wave.

Seaking: Rise to C tier. It's literally just generic water type number 1 but as it turns out that's sufficient to do well in this gen. Had a better Elite Four performance than expected, particularly Lance, albeit nothing particularly special, but, it only needed to be passable here to justify a rise based on its performance against gyms.

Venomoth: Rise to C tier. Outlined this one above. Venomoth isn't anything special on paper, in practice its pretty great because Sleep Powder is a broken move. Moth itself performs at imo a B tier performance, I dock it to C because Venonat is very bad. Overperforms to expectation in a notable way.

Tangela: Remain in C. The definition of a matchup mon. By and large it stomps favorable matchups and can't contribute at all in negative ones. Sleep Powder is broken but doesn't quite overcome mono Grass attacks. Extremely effective where it can contribute, bad where it can't.
 

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Continuing on with an easier run as a palette cleanser after the last

Blastoise
Clefable
Electabuzz
Exeggcute
Primeape
Graveler

Squirtle lv 12: bububububububububububububububububub

Mankey lv 12: Anywhere from a clean sweep to end in low orange. Spam Karate Chop. Technically losable if exactly Geodude Tackle, Onix Rock Tomb, Onix Tackle, Onix Tackle occurs, and at least two of those are crits, and none miss.

Wartortle lv 19: 3HKO Staryu with Bite taking a quarter in return, offer a 3HKO against Starmie's 4HKO with Swift, but cannot eat damage from both Staryu and Starmie together and win.

Mankey lv 19: 2HKO Staryu with Karate Chop through Harden, eating a Water Pulse for half, die quickly to Starmie.

Geodude lv 18: nein

Clefable lv 19: Can win, Mega Punch is a 2HKO on Staryu through Harden and a 3HKO vs Starmie who throws a 4HKO in return. Misses and confusion comlpicate matters.

Wartortle lv 25: Dig is a roll to OHKO Voltorb, and cleanly OHKOs Pikachu, but you quickly fall to Raichu.

Mankey lv 24: Brick Break is a roll to OHKO Voltorb, Rock Tomb OHKOs Pikachu, Rock Tomb+Brick Break is enough for Raichu. Accuracy determines if you can sweep or not.

Geodude lv 24: He's a Magnitude dude.

Clefable lv 24: Mega Punch just misses the OHKo on Voltorb, but OHKOs Pikachu, also 2HKOs Raichu. Paralysis and evasion can cost you a victory but you tank several Shock Waves handily so you have a fair amount of time to push through.
 

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n.b. No grinding, I always fight Erika after the Rocket Hideout and pre-Pokeflute trainers so these are expected levels for a 4 man party, albeit high ones.

Wartortle lv 34: Bite is negligible to Victreebek, Giga Drain/Stun Spore marks an easy loss.

Primeape lv 33: 2HKOs Victreebel with anything but Stun Spore is problematic with Hyper Potions and Giga Drain. Easy 2HKO on Tangela if you avoid paralysis, Vileplume is Victreebel part 2. Max roll Aerial Ace can kill Victreebel outright.

Graveler lv 34: Outsped and OHKOed (n.b. My Graveler is Relaxed nature, very slow).

Clefable lv 33: Return 2HKOs all, Giga Drain doesn't do enough to make paralysis threatening.


n.b. Fought Egg up to 37 for Sleep Powder before evolving. Feel a little underleveled for a five mon team.

Blastoise lv 37: Donks through Koffings and Weezing easily but Muk is a bitch. You 4HKO and he has two Hyper Potions to burn while spamming minimize, plus Toxic for inevitability.

Primeape lv 38: Can punch through the first Koffing with Mega Kick but once an accuracy drop hits the game is over, don't hit Muk hard enough to outpace 35% Sludges.

Graveler lv 40: Capable of sweeping. You 2HKO the Koffings and Magnitude 8 or higher for sure OHKOs Muk, and you can punch through Weezing especially with Rollout. Again though, accuracy drops is a bitch from all three of the gas bags so a couple misses can quickly spell the end as Poison racks up.

Clefable lv 39: Accuracy once again determines how far you go. You 2HKO the first three and 3HKO the Weezing. Had a run where I died to Muk, and another where I'd have beat Weezing through Hyper Potion if not for a last second poison proc.

Exeggutor lv 37: Psychic OHKOS both Koffing and Weezing, and 2HKOs Muk which you have Sleep Powder for.


Blastoise lv 41: Outspeed and Bite 2HKO Kadabra, outspeed and 3HKO Mr. Mime, flinches heavily in your favour but Calm Mind is concerning, 2HKO Venomoth with Surf, fall quickly to CM Alakazam.

Primeape lv 41: Clean sweep. Bulk Up to +2 in the face of Kadabra as it does useless things, then sweep with Aerial Ace, outspeeding Alakazam at this level.

Graveler lv 41: You can always kill Kadabra but Mr. Mime typically stonewalls. You can get around this to an extent with favorable Rollout sequencing and get to, then past, Venomoth, but Alakazam will clean up.

Clefable lv 40: Return OHKOs Kadabra and Mr. Mime, neither of which threaten back, 2HKOs a non-threatening Venomoth while burning Sabrina's potions, then is a roll to OHKO Zam, and you tank a +1 Psychic if needed even after a Moth Psybeam.

Exeggutor lv 41: Easy sweep. Sleep Seed is broke af.

Electabuzz lv 41: Got past Kadabra easily enough but once Mr. Mime gets a Calm Mind up you're in trouble if you don't get the right range damages with Thunder, if Sabrina Hyper Potions a +1 or more Mime its game over.


Blastoise lv 41: At this level, Surf OHKOs Growlithe and Ponyta, 2HKOs Rapidash, and outspeeds and 2HKOs Arcanine.

Primeape lv 44: Set up Bulk Ups on Growlithe until it threatens a kill (+2 or +3 usually), then OHKO each of Growlithe, Ponyta, and Rapidash with Brick Break. Chunk Arcanine for 50-80% before falling.

Graveler lv 43: OHKOs Growlithe taking a Fire Blast, then Arcanine comes in to blow you away with a Fire Blast of its own.

Clefable lv 44: 2HKOs through Growlithe and Ponyta, but by Rapidash the Fire Blasts are too much.

Exeggutor lv 44: OHKO Growlithe and Ponyta both with Psychics, outspeeding, eat a Fire Blast from Rapidash but fail to OHKO in return (90%), Blaine Full Healing away sleep.

Electabuzz lv 44: OHKO Growlithe and Ponyta with Thunder (Thunderpunch insufficient, eating two FBs back), 2HKO Rapidash with a combo Thunderpunch+Thunder, fall to Arcanine dealing 35-50%.
 
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