Pokémon Firered & Leafgreen In-Game Tier Discussion

[Kurona]

Out of curiosity which things are you considering as competition for Shadow Ball?

As regards Sabrina it isn't strictly necessary, just trivializes the fight. Return works fine as a substitute.

Anything, really -- the GC TMs are some of the best in the game. Any electric-type or Gengar would like Thunderbolt, you likely really want Ice Beam by endgame; it's just a general thing. Most Pokémon in the game will want some sort of GC TM, so even if Flareon is the best choice on your team, it's still something weighed against it. Big investment there's a lot of competition for.

I'd agree with that.

In order not to make this a one-liner, I think Ekans could rise to D (or C, but that may be a bit too high, so I am fine with D). It's not really great, I agree, but I used it with Secret Power and then Return + Hyper Beam + Screech and it actually did contribute some stuff. And Intmidate utility is never bad, either. I remember I also taught it Giga Drain, with which it managed to do something against Giovanni (need to check logs before giving more details), Blue's Rhyhorn family and Bruno's Onix. Overall, I think Ekans is not great, but it contributes enough to be somewhere in D-tier, at least.

Are there any other matchups you can recall for Ekans? I can maybe see D but C is almost certainly out of the question with its bad typing, lack of STAB, lack of matchups and below-average stats.

 

[Ryota Mitarai]

Are there any other matchups you can recall for Ekans? I can maybe see D but C is almost certainly out of the question with its bad typing, lack of STAB, lack of matchups and below-average stats.

Note that most fights assume you Screech and use Secret Power or Return, and potentially Hyper Beam to kill a bulky ace

Ekans logs

Misty: For this fight, I had Arbok (I think level 22 but not too sure). If you land Glare, you are almost certainly winning, as you also have Bite and can potentially flinch it, though I don't think flinching is necessary for the win, but solidifies it more
Blue at SS Anne: sweep
Lt. Surge: sweeps, you can use Glare to paralyze Raichu to help yourself a little bit
Erika: also sweeps, with Hyper Beam being needed to OHKO Vileplume after Screech
Koga: does well, for most parts, but accuracy debuffs screw with Hyper Beam for Weezing really hard
Blue at Silph Co.: does well against everything but starter (Charizard in this case). Only Alakazam does not need a Screech to die and it mostly goes for Future Sight
couldn't find Gio logs, for whatever reason.
Sabrina: just spam Return, no need for Screech. Of course, if the AI decides to do something smart and goes for Psychic, you are screwed, but per experience, it's as common as blue moons
Blaine: beats Ponyta and Growlithe, aka the two unsignificant mons on his team
Giovanni #3: beats everything bar one Nido of your choice. Teach it Giga Drain for Rhyhorns.
Blue before VR: beats Rhyhorn, Alakazam, Pidgeot, and Exeggcute
Lorelei: Giga Drain Cloyster and OHKO Jynx with Hyper Beam. The rest have to be Screeched and you may need healing
Bruno: Onix are easy kills. It also beats Hitmonchan and Hitmonlee, though the latter is only doable if you have no Speed drops
Agatha: only beats Golbat
Lance: takes out one Dragonair
Champion Blue: beats only Pidgeot

As I said, it's not great and it needs to Screech almost everything to beat them fastly. However, I do think it merits something that's higher than E. Funnily enough, Meowth also operated under similar strats in my experience, but it can be given higher tier due to Pay Day and Pickup utility (that thing once picked up a Rare Candy for me, but I know it's rare).

e: Persian doesn't have Pickup, but it's still nice enough for when you have it as a Meowth

 

[Kurona]

Alright, so, we're new and all; but I felt tonight's discussion alone has helped to make a couple things obvious and start off some discussion points on specific Pokémon; so a small update as I pass into midnight!

First of all, the rankings now have animated menu sprites for every Pokémon. Makes it look all pretty like! And hopefully more easy to comprehend and consider at a glance. While doing it I, uh, I also realised I completely forgot to include Kangaskhan. I've had this list and have been working on it for like a year and I completely forgot a Pokémon existed. She's in D for now!

I've also gone ahead and moved a few Pokémon that I felt there was a good consensus on and/or was pretty obvious in hindsight:-

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Zapdos from A to B
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Diglett from B to C
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Jolteon from B to C
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Magmar from C to D
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Moltres from C to D

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Flareon from D to C

And finally, from what's been discussed and a quick look at the tier list; I think we have a focused slate in order!

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Bulbasaur. A or B? I know there does seem to be a consensus on it, but I want to see a bit more discussion and I'm not fully convinced on status moves in runs built on efficiency on reliability, nor am I confident in its typing or matchups post-Misty.
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Hitmonchan, our hot button topic of the night. Currently residing in C, I'm seeing valid arguments either way that it's pretty underrated and should be ranked alongside similar Fighting-types Primeape and Machoke in B, or that it's hot trash that even the C-ranked Pokémon don't deserve to be seen with and should drop to D. Need more detailed discussion and testing I think.
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Safari Zone Pokémon that aren't Chansey I decided to put in D with the exception of Pinsir (due to its cheap price at the GC) due to how hard they are to catch and even find. But as indicated by the Tauros discussion, is there perhaps merit to them that I'm just glossing over due to their problematic catch rates and rarity?
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Ekans right now is hanging out in E tier where all the downright useless Pokémon are -- mostly marked by availability. I largely put this, Onix and Weedle there due to their having what I felt was no redeeming qualities amongst bad stats, movepools and typings; but was that too cruel? Does Ekans deserve to be seen as analogous to Ditto or Kabuto or does it have enough that it could move up to D?
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Krabby! This one's a bit out of nowhere, but I was browsing the list and I was really wondering if it should be in C when its late-game availability and lack of special attack as a water-type perhaps indicates it should be D instead.

 

[Ryota Mitarai]

to comment on the mons *mentioned* in the slate that I have not commented on:

Safari mons: I think Kanga also deserves C-tier. It's like Tauros, it can just spam Normal moves and bulldoze stuff. It also has Fake Out, which is a nice way of chipping stuff. I think it and Tauros are the only "hard" Safari mons that deserve a tier higher than D.

Krabby: C is fine. With Return, it actually hits quite hard and Surf allows it to do well against Blaine and Giovanni as well. There's probably more behind why I support Krabby to C, which might be covered in some logs that I'd have to dig out.

Weedle: This one also has a good case for D (not any higher, though). Twineedle at level 20 means it's actually going to beat Misty's Starmie and I also recall Lt. Surge being a good matchup. Giga Drain, like many other things, makes Giovanni #3 a good matchup and Beedrill also has an easy time against Sabrina, for most parts. I can gather logs for this, as Weedle is something people would likely be surprised to see has some actual merit

Fossils mons can be D-tier. I have not used Kabuto, mind you, but if you grind up Aero and Omastar, they are actually gonna contribute stuff. Of course, you have to grind them, but I think the grind is worth the merit they bring. Again, I can provide logs if necessary (it takes me some time to dig them up, which is why I want to provide them only when necessary)

Onix, I don't remember it doing much. I suppose if you go to Rock Tunnel first, you can use it for Lt. Surge. It's rather mediocre in route cleaning too, which is not good, in my opinion. I personally do not mind it staying in E-tier, simply because of how bad my experiences with it have been.

Machoke (aka Machop (No Trade)) has been terrible in my experience. Takes too many hits and has to set up a lot of Bulk Ups while taking those hits. Again, logs are available to you if you need them. I do agree with Machamp in A, however.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Quick comments, I also used Beedrill somewhat recently and can confirm that it can be reasonably legitimate if you put the effort into it. Swords Dance / Aerial Ace / Brick Break / Normal Move (replacing Twinneedle in the later game) is functional enough to be effective, and of course Giga Drain is also an option. It straight up cannot take a hit from Giovanni on, but when built correctly it can be effective. Shame Sludge Bomb is locked to post-game.

Regarding Bulbasaur specifically I think you're locked in too hard on thinking status moves are what carries Bulbasaur, in reality that majority of battles are handled fine by it's attacking moves. Where Bulbasaur particularly excels is in turning otherwise negative matchups into wins because the AI just isn't equipped to handle sleep seed. If they aren't Alakazam or Charizard or Arcanine you can solo basically any other matchup that you would otherwise lose, it's essentially inherent coverage for any teams given weaknesses.

 

[Stellar]

Kurona, almost all of the animated minisprites are broken.

I might try to test out some of the more contentious PKMN in the next couple days!

 

[Kurona]

Kurona, almost all of the animated minisprites are broken.

I might try to test out some of the more contentious PKMN in the next couple days!

Are you viewing on your phone? Because checking on both my laptop and phone, very annoyingly all but Pidgey and Oddish fail on the latter; but everything's perfectly fine on the former.

 

[LordDirtyO]

The sprites seem to be broken for me as well, and I'm viewing the page on a laptop.

 

[Ryota Mitarai]

just use the built-in sprites on Smogon which is done like :pokemon:

for example,

you are likely trying to upload them from somewhere

 

[Kurona]

Will do after work today!

 

[Stellar]

I know you didn't ask for it, but I felt inspired to spruce things up a bit... Feel free to use this in the OP if you'd like.

 

[Kurona]

I know you didn't ask for it, but I felt inspired to spruce things up a bit... Feel free to use this in the OP if you'd like.

View attachment 267616

That’s beautiful, thank you so much!! You didn’t need to but I’m glad you did :D Will be up after work!

 

[Kurona]

Sprites changed out and OP image updated! I also added some sprites to the general guidelines bullet points as I felt they otherwise looked kind of word soup-y at a glance.

Also, uh, Jynx and Psyduck's images are memes. RIP

 

[Turdterra]

Let’s breathe some life into this thread. I’ll do a test consisting of Venusaur, Beedrill, Golem, and Gyarados if that’s all right with you, Kurona?

 

[Kurona]

Let’s breathe some life into this thread. I’ll do a test consisting of Venusaur, Beedrill, Golem, and Gyarados if that’s all right with you, Kurona?

Nothing’s not alright with me! Which is to say, yeah

 

[Turdterra]

Nothing’s not alright with me! Which is to say, yeah

Cool! I should have some logs up Thursday at the latest.

 

[Turdterra]

Started up the test today consisting of the above (Apologies for the double post)

I did not test Rival (Viridian). I dunno if that fight in particular is required or being considered here. If it is, I'll make sure to test it in future runs but really only the starters and a select few Pokemon can partake in that fight.

Brock

Beedrill (11): Not at all what I would call a good match-up because it is terribly inefficient and takes way too much time but Beedrill can sweep this fight. I tested this fight 3 times and all of them had the same outcome. Beedrill gets the Poison on Geodude and you sit there going +6 on Harden (I did this in case of a Rock Tomb from Onix later on. He never clicked it for some reason.) Around this time, you will need to Potion too. Then you begin to pelt Geodude with Fury Attack. Once Onix comes out, get that Poison and pelt with Fury Attack. Like I said before, horribly inefficient but doable.

Bulbasaur (10 going in, 12 out): Just Vine Whip. OHKO on Geo, 2HKO on Onix.

Rival 2 (Bridge)

Geodude (15-16): The match-up is dependent on Pidegotto. If it opens with a Sand-Attack, that's pretty much GG unless you get a little luck on your side. Rock Throw is a 2HKO on Pidgeotto. Charmander is much the same with Rock Throw. It tends to Growl first if it is not doing a Metal Claw. This is followed up by an Ember usually. My first test had me burned from an Ember which basically meant GG. If Charmander leads with Metal Claw, it's gonna spam it. Ember hurt more than Claw for reference. Abra is a 2HKO with Tackle or Throw, OHKO with Magnitude 7. Rattata is 2HKO by Magnitude 6-7. Pretty decent matchup but at the same time, annoying to test.

Ivysaur (17-18): It can sweep with SleepSeed but you have to have them asleep longer than 1 turn for it to really matter (It seemed to be at theme they wake up after a turn). Tackle is laughable damage on Pidgeotto but SleepSeed made up for that damage, much the same with Charmander. Abra is 2HKO by Tackle (I dunno why I didn't use Vine Whip) and Rattata is either OHKO or 2HKO by Vine Whip

Beedrill (15): Uh, no? Just don't even bother. If by some chance you break past Pidgeotto, Charmander can just Ember to finish you off.

Magikarp (12): There is no feasible way to have a Gyarados at this point unless I went and grinded on Wilds. My issue probably is that I got my team at Mt. Moon and Geodude was sharing some XP with Karp which definitely affected XP overall, so it's best to use another mon later in the game so that Karp absorbs as much XP via switch training

Misty

Ivysaur (19-20): Another easy matchup here. Vine Whip is a 2HKO on Staryu. Starmie is an effective 3HKO due to Super Potion. You can do SleepSeed here if you want but Vine Whip is always a 3HKO regardless due to that Super Potion.

Gyarados (20): I got Karp to 18 and popped the 2 Rare Candies onto it. There is no other way to really get Gyara in time for this fight otherwise. Tackle is a 2HKO on Staryu. Starmie is a 4HKO with Bite but if you lead with Tackle she will not pop the Super Potion as it is just out or range for that proc. So Tackle and 2 Bites will net you the KO.

Beedrill: Can't even get past Staryu.

Geodude: No.

I stopped here because I would like to ask some questions Kurona. What is your stance on Vs. Seeker + Pay Day? This would allow easier use of the GC TMs. Adding onto this, what is the stance on using Vs. Seeker?

 

[Kurona]

Rival Viridian is a simple fight, and an optional one at that — it matters about as much as any route trainer; all you really miss out on is some decent xp. I always do it myself but I don’t think it matters, this ain’t yellow.

Vs. Seeker and Pay Day is imo inefficient as it’s something you have to go out of your way for repetitively — it’s basically grinding, and as such it really does depend on how much cash you need. If it’s a lot it’ll naturally be counted against the pokémon. Though with your team I imagine you just want Ice Beam for Gyara? That should be easily obtainable without grinding.

 

[Turdterra]

Rival Viridian is a simple fight, and an optional one at that — it matters about as much as any route trainer; all you really miss out on is some decent xp. I always do it myself but I don’t think it matters, this ain’t yellow.

Vs. Seeker and Pay Day is imo inefficient as it’s something you have to go out of your way for repetitively — it’s basically grinding, and as such it really does depend on how much cash you need. If it’s a lot it’ll naturally be counted against the pokémon. Though with your team I imagine you just want Ice Beam for Gyara? That should be easily obtainable without grinding.

Uh, Hyber Beam for Beedrill is more preferable in this case. While i can see Beedrill going absolutely nowhere higher than D, I do need some better moves outside of Brick Break. (Secret Power was given to Ivysaur because lol Tackle). It's basically a call between Beedrill or Gyara. I am more inclined for Gyara as Beedrill is laughable.

 

[Kurona]

Uh, Hyber Beam for Beedrill is more preferable in this case. While i can see Beedrill going absolutely nowhere higher than D, I do need some better moves outside of Brick Break. (Secret Power was given to Ivysaur because lol Tackle). It's basically a call between Beedrill or Gyara. I am more inclined for Gyara as Beedrill is laughable.

The TM for Hyper Beam is 7500 Poké Dollars at Celadon Mart.

 

[Turdterra]

The TM for Hyper Beam is 7500 Poké Dollars at Celadon Mart.

Holy wow, then I am misremembering FRLG like crazy then. Granted, it has been an incredibly long time since I have played it. Did some more tests.

Rival 3 (S.S. Anne)

It is worth noting that I think you will always be overleveled for this fight as Misty is higher leveled than this fight.

Gyarados (22-23): Water Pulse 2HKOs pretty much everything barring Charmeleon who is an OHKO. Pretty good matchup here. Be careful of Sand Attack.

Golem (25-26): Rock Throw is an OHKO on everything. Raticate is a 2HKO if you got hit by a Growl. Magnitude 6-8 is an OHKO on Charmeleon, Raticate, and Kadabra. Excellent matchup.

Ivysaur (25-26): SleepSeed once again is applied here (and I am gonna be using it a lot as the Bulbasaur line is one of the best users of the combo imo). Secret Power is a 2HKO on pretty much everything barring Kadabra which it OHKOs. Razor Leaf is a 2HKO on Raticate (OHKO with Crit) and an OHKO on Kadabra. SleepSeed was only applied to Pidgeotto and Charmeleon once again. Pretty good matchup.

Beedrill (21-22): Exactly the same as Rival 2. If you get past Pidgeotto in some capacity, Charmeleon or Kadabra come in and just stop you outright. Brick Break is a 3HKO on Pidgeotto. 2HKO with a Crit.

Surge

Gyarados (25): It can technically sweep this fight but I am gonna say no due to how Surge plays. Out of the 3 tests I did, only one of them showed the capability to sweep. Voltorb cannot hit you with Shock Wave or even Sonicboom. Raichu cannot Double Team and should just goof off with QA. You can take one Shock Wave if you are at full or around there. Voltorb is 2HKO by Water Pulse, Pikachu is an OHKO, Raichu is a 4HKO (I assume. Never saw it) and 2HKO by Dragon Rage. Mediocre matchup

Golem (25-26): Just Magnitude for the win. Pretty obvious. Excellent matchup

Ivysaur (25-26): SleepSeed can't be applied here. Surge carries a Full Heal for whatever reason and you waste time getting Raichu to sleep while it's busy Double Teaming. Just go for the Seed instead, kinda mandatory really for this fight. Razor Leaf is a 2HKO on Voltorb (OHKO if Crit), OHKO on Pikachu, and 2-3HKO on Raichu. It's really a slugfest between Ivysaur and Raichu so that Seed really helps. Last test had me at 2 HP for reference. Mediocre matchup.

Beedrill (24): If you are thinking it was going to fail here, you'd be wrong. It swept Surge. Twineedle is an OHKO on Voltorb and Pikachu. (Please note when I say OHKO, I am referring to that it required both hits from Twin.) Raichu is 2HKO by it. You take one Shock Wave from Raichu. Pretty good matchup

Rival 4 (Pokemon Tower)

Gyarados (27-28): Water Pulse begins to show its age around this point. 3-4HKO on Pidgeotto and by that time you have take plenty of Sand Attacks to the face. Dragon Rage is a 2HKO on his entire team. Water Pulse is an OHKO on Charmeleon. Bite for reference is a 2HKO on Eggs and Kadabra. Good matchup.

Ivysaur(28-29): Big fat L on this one. I tested this fight roughly 8-10 times. Eggs walls me. If I get past it, I've taken way too much damage (due to Seed not affecting Grass types) and whatever comes out potentially kills me if I miss SleepSeed. I got past the Eggs once only to get KO'd by Kababra. Pidgeotto is SleepSeeded, Eggs can be put to sleep but my runs absolutely would not allow it to be asleep longer than 2 turns and it would either put up a Reflect or use Hypnosis. Horrible matchup.

Beedrill (27): It's okay here but cannot sweep. Focus Energy + Aerial Ace is your best friend for this fight. Twin is used on Kadabra and Eggs if you can land it (Otto using Sand Attack is an ongoing annoyance). Unfortunately, you take too much damage during these and Charmeleon comes out to finish you off. Takes out 3/5 of the team. Decent matchup.

Golem (28-29): Rock Slide OHKOs Pidgeotto, Charmeleon, and Kadabra. 2HKOs Eggs and Gyara (Due to Intimidate from Gyara). Excellent matchup.

 

[TROP]

Just did a run with these

(non trade from FR) -----> S rank

Incredible mon. Outside of no longer hitting Gengar and Weezing with Earthquake/Dig his dominance from rby is mostly untouched, actually gets some nice perks to make up for it such as megahorn and poison point finishing off kills for you sometimes, and is basically set until the absolute endgame as soon it gets the Rock Slide tutor from Rock Tunnel. Only really bad match ups are Misty (not strong enough yet) and Misty v2.0 (without game corner tms), anything else is handled with no problems considering the options it has available. Game corner tms (mostly ice beam and thunderbolt) and some x items just to give him the boost it needs to solo all the non Lance elite 4 members + Champion might be needed to use it to its full potential against the elite 4, but by absolute late game dumping cash on them is a non issue and when Nidoking is by far the best possible user of the game corner tms anyway.

The slow start as Nidoran is not even that bad when MT. Moon can easily level him up between a bit of sharing exp with something else, bug catchers, and wild paras to make it incredibly easy to come out of there with a Nidoking. And once it gets dig (and use of the rock tomb tm) it should have no issues reaching lv 22 before SS Anne rival where it gets a pretty strong and consistent move in Thrash to complement his rock/ground coverage and carry it for a long time.

-----> S rank

This guy being anything below S would be an insult to it. This is the list of relevant matchups where Squirtle/Wartortle/Blastoise is not optimal: Surge and Erika that can be done later if you really want to anyway. Its level up movepool is mostly irrelevant outside of Bite after beating Brock, but that is all it really needs when it and Water pulse are strong enough to carry it until it can get Surf as Blastoise. Also has an incredibly easy time being higher level than the rest (at least until you get to Koga/Sylph rival/Sabrina) when Rock Tunnel, Lavender tower, part of Sylph, and Rocket Hideout are seemingly made to cater to its most natural moveset possible. Elite 4 + Champion need some x item and guard spec set up (because Blastoise gets no boosting moves) to properly sweep them, but that is hardly an issue when all 5 of their starting mons don't really do much to Blastoise anyway. Even with him soloing the elite 4 because it ended up being faster than anyone else doing it and some rare candies, this only ended at lv 58.

Used Ice beam (obtained late game when dumping cash was not a problem) on this one, but Blizzard from Cinnabar mansion with x-accuracy for Lance's dragons and Venusaur works just as well.

-----> C rank

Only bothered with this because it was the first mon that appeared in Viridian Forest lol. Anyway, this thing is not that impressive outside of natural Thunderbolt that at least make it easy to lv up, but getting there is the problem because the Pikachu stage is awful. If the Pikachu stage is skipped by getting it at the power plant, it doesn't really do much outside of bullying the swimmers, anglers, and bird keepers because thunderbolt is all it really does thanks to all its other moves sucking for it. Lorelei and Lance (this will need seismic toss or a strong normal move for the Dragonairs though) are the only relevant matchups where Raichu does anything significant.

-----> Can stay in A just fine

Being slow as fuck to guarantee it almost always will take a hit first sucks, but its bulk, power and mostly good relevant matchups make up for it. Also has utility as a mini hm slave when it only really needs normal stab and brick break to do his thing for most of the game, with late game shadow ball being an option to deal with those dumb Gengar if someone wants to do so. Being able to brutalize Sabrina and Blaine (needs thick fat for this though) while being pretty underleveled is also a really nice thing to make his horrible experience group not as bad in practice, or at least not for a bit.


-----> D rank

Perfectly fine where it is because it really falls off shortly after it is obtained, but being able to make up for its awful offenses with guaranteed Adamant, Stick for a good crit chance, and natural swords Dance at least saves it from being truly useless outside of fly slave. Could even got C considering that rank is filled with some really questionable things right now that and when its good traits kind of make up for how awful it is stat wise while not being that slow.

-----> D rank and could even be E because it is that bad

Now this is a real piece of shit that is way too reliant on early game corner tms to at least be remotely useful outside of killing route trainers that die to almost anything anyway. If it doesn't, it is stuck with really bad moves for a long time that make it so bad to the point Farfetch'd of all things outperforms it in the one gym where it should have an advantage. Even with game corner tms as an option it is really low on the list of thing that deserve those when there are at least 10 different things that are way better uses of such a luxury, while late game it is incredibly subpar regardless.

 

[Kurona]

Heavily disagree with S Nidoking especially without in-game trade — it heavily falls off in power towards the end (which mr. nido’s boosted exp and guaranteed great stats make up for), and has a lot of very bad matchups between Sabrina, Giovanni, Lorelei and Blue. I’d be very curious to see your logs of soloing the league, and I have to say I discourage X items in general because with them basically nothing would go below A.

 

[Turdterra]

Just did a run with these

(non trade from FR) -----> S rank

Incredible mon. Outside of no longer hitting Gengar and Weezing with Earthquake/Dig his dominance from rby is mostly untouched, actually gets some nice perks to make up for it such as megahorn and poison point finishing off kills for you sometimes, and is basically set until the absolute endgame as soon it gets the Rock Slide tutor from Rock Tunnel. Only really bad match ups are Misty (not strong enough yet) and Misty v2.0 (without game corner tms), anything else is handled with no problems considering the options it has available. Game corner tms (mostly ice beam and thunderbolt) and some x items just to give him the boost it needs to solo all the non Lance elite 4 members + Champion might be needed to use it to its full potential against the elite 4, but by absolute late game dumping cash on them is a non issue and when Nidoking is by far the best possible user of the game corner tms anyway.

The slow start as Nidoran is not even that bad when MT. Moon can easily level him up between a bit of sharing exp with something else, bug catchers, and wild paras to make it incredibly easy to come out of there with a Nidoking. And once it gets dig (and use of the rock tomb tm) it should have no issues reaching lv 22 before SS Anne rival where it gets a pretty strong and consistent move in Thrash to complement his rock/ground coverage and carry it for a long time.

-----> S rank

This guy being anything below S would be an insult to it. This is the list of relevant matchups where Squirtle/Wartortle/Blastoise is not optimal: Surge and Erika that can be done later if you really want to anyway. Its level up movepool is mostly irrelevant outside of Bite after beating Brock, but that is all it really needs when it and Water pulse are strong enough to carry it until it can get Surf as Blastoise. Also has an incredibly easy time being higher level than the rest (at least until you get to Koga/Sylph rival/Sabrina) when Rock Tunnel, Lavender tower, part of Sylph, and Rocket Hideout are seemingly made to cater to its most natural moveset possible. Elite 4 + Champion need some x item and guard spec set up (because Blastoise gets no boosting moves) to properly sweep them, but that is hardly an issue when all 5 of their starting mons don't really do much to Blastoise anyway. Even with him soloing the elite 4 because it ended up being faster than anyone else doing it and some rare candies, this only ended at lv 58.

Used Ice beam (obtained late game when dumping cash was not a problem) on this one, but Blizzard from Cinnabar mansion with x-accuracy for Lance's dragons and Venusaur works just as well.

-----> C rank

Only bothered with this because it was the first mon that appeared in Viridian Forest lol. Anyway, this thing is not that impressive outside of natural Thunderbolt that at least make it easy to lv up, but getting there is the problem because the Pikachu stage is awful. If the Pikachu stage is skipped by getting it at the power plant, it doesn't really do much outside of bullying the swimmers, anglers, and bird keepers because thunderbolt is all it really does thanks to all its other moves sucking for it. Lorelei and Lance (this will need seismic toss or a strong normal move for the Dragonairs though) are the only relevant matchups where Raichu does anything significant.

-----> Can stay in A just fine

Being slow as fuck to guarantee it almost always will take a hit first sucks, but its bulk, power and mostly good relevant matchups make up for it. Also has utility as a mini hm slave when it only really needs normal stab and brick break to do his thing for most of the game, with late game shadow ball being an option to deal with those dumb Gengar if someone wants to do so. Being able to brutalize Sabrina and Blaine (needs thick fat for this though) while being pretty underleveled is also a really nice thing to make his horrible experience group not as bad in practice, or at least not for a bit.


:rs/Farfetch -----> D rank

Perfectly fine where it is because it really falls off shortly after it is obtained, but being able to make up for its awful offenses with guaranteed Adamant, Stick for a good crit chance, and natural swords Dance at least saves it from being truly useless outside of fly slave. Could even got C considering that rank is filled with some really questionable things right now that and when its good traits kind of make up for how awful it is stat wise while not being that slow.

-----> D rank and could even be E because it is that bad

Now this is a real piece of shit that is way too reliant on early game corner tms to at least be remotely useful outside of killing route trainers that die to almost anything anyway. If it doesn't, it is stuck with really bad moves for a long time that make it so bad to the point Farfetch'd of all things outperforms it in the one gym where it should have an advantage. Even with game corner tms as an option it is really low on the list of thing that deserve those when there are at least 10 different things that are way better uses of such a luxury, while late game it is incredibly subpar regardless.

Have a lot of issues here actually. I've used Blastoise in a recent test prior to the one I am doing. It's not even A imo. The Wartortle phase is unbearably bad and I resorted to using Mega Kick to get kills and I don't need to tell you how unreliable that is. Water Pulse is okay but is generally used on good match ups, nothing Neutral honestly as Mega Kick will either OHKO or 2HKO vs Pulses 2-3HKO. After Misty, yeah it has that rough patch but it doesn't really get any better for quite awhile. As Blastoise the performance picks up, but it's not enough to net it in A honestly, it's just that bad. I'll do another test to refresh my memory on the turtle after my current one, there could have been something that I missed initially but I see it in B imo.

I can see Farfetch'd in C actually. It has utility and SD is absolutely nothing to scoff at. The only other way to get SD is via Tutor Post Game. Combine this with Stick and you got dead bodies lining up. However as stated, the stats do get in the way and it can faint in the middle of a sweep.

Flareon. It is definitely not deserving of D or even lower. Return is a TM that Flareon can use effectively after some coddling, optionally you can give it Secret Power if no other teammate needs it (SP is somewhat contested honestly). Moving onto the GC you have Flamethrower STAB and Shadow Ball. Regardless if there is a better user of the TMs, I see no one on your team that could have used Flamethrower as well as Flareon (which I believe you may have enough money to afford ONE TM the moment you hit Celadon but I think it is incredibly close).

I’d be very curious to see your logs of soloing the league, and I have to say I discourage X items in general because with them basically nothing would go below A.

I would like to see all of his logs personally, but that's just me and I cannot make that call. I do agree on the X Item usage and it may be better to outright ban them. They effectively make any Pokemon better and give out faulty tests.

 

[TROP]

it heavily falls off in power towards the end

It literally doesn't, especially where this is the gen where high bp moves are rare and when in the end it can get the relevant game corner tms and earthquake to boost his kit.

Sabrina

She is a joke thanks to 3 out of her 4 mons being super frail on the physical side and it not being impossible to outspeed Alakazam (speed evs from the carbos pickups and + speed nature make this really easy) and one shot it before it can touch the King. The King can also quite easily have megahorn for that point for insurance it can OHKO Alakazam.

Giovanni

Literally just temporary teach surf/get him ice beam and Giovanni is free. Because it only needs 3 moves up to that point, it can get away with just using focus energy on the rhydon and then one shotting everything with surf before getting touched. And yes, this includes Dugtrio when it isn't that hard to get some speed evs, a speed boosting nature (not actually needed), and using a carbos or 2 (don't even need to buy them) along the way. I know, because this is actually what I did, but decided to go with Blastoise doing instead because Blastoise is op.

Lorelei

This is the one that is actually true because it just needs a bit too many rock slide flinches to be doable. Though with x items I just set up on Cloyster to have the power to one shot everything else with Earthquake.

Blue

Outside of Alakazam (that can be outspeed just as easily as the others) this is literally not true. In fact I just beat him right now without using any X item just to get the order his team would come out in and this is how it went:

Pidgeot comes and King uses rock slide while the bird uses aerial ace, next turn the bird dies to Ice Beam. Alakazam is next and because of the flexibility to get a speed + nature (actually did this just for this purpose) and some speed evs (used a total of 5 carbos, 3 of them being pickups in the overworld with the extra 2 being bought in the final shopping spree) I actually outspeed and flinch with rock slide and then kill with earthquake, non Squirtle starters can get away with keeping megahorn to one shot both this and exeggutor and only use ice beam for Lance. Rhydon just gets surf'd because thunderbolt (ice beam if using a non Squirtle starter) already served its purpose with Lance and Lorelei and as such is no longer needed. Gyarados is next and I just fodder the worthless Flareon (and to make this fair I just spammed poke flute until that died) to get the king Attack restored, 2hkoed with rock slide because for some reason it decided to go with thrash instead of anything else lol and don't think that is being lucky because the turn Flareon was sent to die it used dragon rage. Arcanine used flamethrower and the king is left at very low hp after the king put him at half hp with earhtuqkae, the King is healed and it now goes for extremespeed x2 before dying. Venusaur was 2hkoed by ice beam without doing anything because it tried to go for solarbeam lol.

King was at lv 62 here after all the rare candies got used in a save state where Blastoise didn't beat the elite 4 yet.

I’d be very curious to see your logs of soloing the league, and I have to say I discourage X items in general because with them basically nothing would go below A.

Lorelei without x items sounds annoying as fuck because it would need way too many rock slide flinches to kill Slowbro and Lapras with minimal damage.. With x items it went like this: Dewgong 2hkoed by rock slide, idk what it would have used because it was flinched lol, x attack x3 on Cloyster with healing being done as needed because its only offensive move is...fucking dive lol and the other moves don't really do anything, Cloyster itself got one shotted by Thunderbolt. Everything else got one shotted by Earthquake.

Bruno: Onyx 1 does literally nothing and died to a single ice beam lol. Onyx 2 has the same fate. The rest of his team can't hurt the king in any significant way outside of Hitmonlee that is outspeed and one shotted by Earthquake. Machamp was slightly more annoying, but 3 earthquakes + poison point ended up killing it. Hitmonchan just needs a turn or 2 of a special move to avoid getting countered to death and then a follow up earthquake.

Agatha: Gengar 1 is just a rng machine more than anything else lol, doesn't really do much though and was killed by 2 thunderbolt followed by 1 rock slide. Thunderbolt + Rock slide killed the Haunter. Second Gengar needed 2 rock slides + ice beam to go down. Golbat is a joke and just thunderbolt'd twice. Arbok took 2 earthquakes because of intimidate attack drop.

Lance: Gyarados is one shotted by thunderbolt. Aerodactyl is 2hkoed by the same move and leaves the King at somewhat low hp after 1 wing attack and hyper beam. Healed on Dragonite to hopefully make it go for hyper beam, but it went for wing attack and then Outrage, Ice beam leaves it in full restore range but it got a 3 turn outrage and died next turn thanks to it. Healed on Dragonair 1 as it went for hyper beam, Dragonair is then 2hkoed by Earthquake. Just used Earthquake on Dragonair 2 twice.