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By my own complaints, it would have been D-tier, but that felt too extreme as Sleep+Seed helped and I cannot possibly suggest dropping something by 2 tiers at once. I may have stronger opinions on route clearing than others, yeah. I have a small speedrunning background as well, I assume I cannot really turn that off while doing ingame runs. I consider clearing routes twice as fast as a bigger ingame efficiency compared to beating major bosses 20% easier. My major issue with Bulbasaur is just that it slows down gameplay too much. Efficiency includes effectiveness and time and Bulbasaur, while capable, just does its thing in too much time to be called efficient. Although if we talk about effectiveness alone ... yes, it is effective to use for sure. It's kind of the same thing as to why lots of late game dragon types are low tier, because while capable, they waste time. If they waste time leveling up or waste time clearing trainers (even if they do so without major issues) ... for me it's just the same kind of major flaw regardless.
By my own complaints, it would have been D-tier, but that felt too extreme as Sleep+Seed helped and I cannot possibly suggest dropping something by 2 tiers at once. I may have stronger opinions on route clearing than others, yeah. I have a small speedrunning background as well, I assume I cannot really turn that off while doing ingame runs. I consider clearing routes twice as fast as a bigger ingame efficiency compared to beating major bosses 20% easier. My major issue with Bulbasaur is just that it slows down gameplay too much. Efficiency includes effectiveness and time and Bulbasaur, while capable, just does its thing in too much time to be called efficient. Although if we talk about effectiveness alone ... yes, it is effective to use for sure. It's kind of the same thing as to why lots of late game dragon types are low tier, because while capable, they waste time. If they waste time leveling up or waste time clearing trainers (even if they do so without major issues) ... for me it's just the same kind of major flaw regardless.
Hey, I totally get you for why Bulbasaur is seen as disappointing, though I haven’t used the FRLG version for myself in quite some time, possibly ever. Grass starters historically are terrible in-game, generally the best they manage is B (save for maybe Torterra but I also see that as a B personally) and quite a few have been C.
I think putting any starter in D is kinda unfeasible, even if they really ARE that terrible. Even if you suck as hard as BW1 Snivy or Chikorita in Johto, being literally the first thing you obtain means it’s hard to be fair and put the thing in the same tier as stuff like Seel or whatever, no matter their major battle capabilities just because of how early they come. That being said, the availability shouldn’t be a BIG factor in viability, but for a starter you really can’t get better. Also remember that even with bad offensive STAB, Venusaur has good stats. It just can’t use them effectively because lol Grass / Poison type.
It’s okay if you have a small speed running mindset! These lists aren’t really meant for speed running but rather as an optimal path through the game that’s semi-casual. If we were speedrunning Blastoise / Nidoking would be S and everything else would be irrelevant, haha.
By my own complaints, it would have been D-tier, but that felt too extreme as Sleep+Seed helped and I cannot possibly suggest dropping something by 2 tiers at once. I may have stronger opinions on route clearing than others, yeah. I have a small speedrunning background as well, I assume I cannot really turn that off while doing ingame runs. I consider clearing routes twice as fast as a bigger ingame efficiency compared to beating major bosses 20% easier. My major issue with Bulbasaur is just that it slows down gameplay too much. Efficiency includes effectiveness and time and Bulbasaur, while capable, just does its thing in too much time to be called efficient. Although if we talk about effectiveness alone ... yes, it is effective to use for sure. It's kind of the same thing as to why lots of late game dragon types are low tier, because while capable, they waste time. If they waste time leveling up or waste time clearing trainers (even if they do so without major issues) ... for me it's just the same kind of major flaw regardless.
I kind of see your point about route clearing. But I have to agree with Drumstick, boss battles have more emphasis in my eyes though it's ultimately up to this tier list's leader I think. Route clearing to me is more important in the context of dungeons with wild encounters. Why? Because you normally use Repels to traverse these dungeons and probably want to optimize your movement to ensure you do not waste Repels. That's how it is for me anyway. Regular route clearing is less important because going to back to the Pokémon Center to heal in the middle of a route is not that penalizing. It shouldn't be huge factor in docking a Pokémon's efficiency in my view.
Incidentally, Bulbasaur performs very well in the two dungeons (Mt. Moon, Rock Tunnel) where efficiency is more important in my eyes. And it obviously does well against the early game bosses too. The mid game is where it starts to regress due to the plethora of Poison types (though guarding against Poison status shouldn't be understated). But also realize that by Celadon City there's a high chance you'll have picked up other team members who need to catch up on levels after having relied on Bulbasaur so heavily in the early game. In other words, other members can catch up and soak up EXP on routes like Cycling Road that Venusaur normally struggles with. And Venusaur still has the late game water routes and Giovanni to pick up fairly easy EXP on its own.
Bulbasaur is by no means a game breaking mon in FRLG but it has very good pacing. In my experience its excellent early game and average game the rest of the way give it a good argument for A tier. I could potentially see B based on others' experiences but C seems far too harsh in my opinion.
But also realize that by Celadon City there's a high chance you'll have picked up other team members who need to catch up on levels after having relied on Bulbasaur so heavily in the early game. In other words, other members can catch up and soak up EXP on routes like Cycling Road that Venusaur normally struggles with.
The same logic can be applied to gym battles - some other Pokemon might do the job for Bulbasaur - but we still take every single major battle into the consideration. Pokemon should be negatively valued for struggling with common trainers. In this regard, I agree with GetaX here - Bulbasaur fails in this category (in the midgame anyway). Team Rocket grunts use poison types fairly often. Lasses use flying, poison and grass types. Half of gamers use fire types. Nerds use poison and fire types. Bikers love poison types. The list goes on.
I feel like the whole focus on major battles started fairly recently. I still remember people talking about Pokemon's performance "in the field" a few years ago in R/S/E thread. Most of Pokemon games consists of sweeping regular trainers so if some Pokemon fail to do it efficiently then they fail in a big chunk of a game (e.q. Wobbuffet). I noticed experience groups being discussed much more frequently and it surprises me. I don't say it's wrong (people play differently and have different tastes after all) but I see a trend of undervaluing/disregarding certain elements of Pokemon games to the point that testers are told to not bother with them at all. It saddens me.
The same logic can be applied to gym battles - some other Pokemon might do the job for Bulbasaur - but we still take every single major battle into the consideration. Pokemon should be negatively valued for struggling with common trainers. In this regard, I agree with GetaX here - Bulbasaur fails in this category (in the midgame anyway). Team Rocket grunts use poison types fairly often. Lasses use flying, poison and grass types. Half of gamers use fire types. Nerds use poison and fire types. Bikers love poison types. The list goes on.
I feel like the whole focus on major battles started fairly recently. I still remember people talking about Pokemon's performance "in the field" a few years ago in R/S/E thread. Most of Pokemon games consists of sweeping regular trainers so if some Pokemon fail to do it efficiently then they fail in a big chunk of a game (e.q. Wobbuffet). I noticed experience groups being discussed much more frequently and it surprises me. I don't say it's wrong (people play differently and have different tastes after all) but I see a trend of undervaluing/disregarding certain elements of Pokemon games to the point that testers are told to not bother with them at all. It saddens me.
So should testers be keeping an eye on which trainers they struggle with and then do a mini MU write up? I think not. Every Pokemon has the capability to beat these mooks whether it is resisted or not. (Barring the obvious terrible mons like Karp) So the value starts becoming less and less important as you begin to outlevel these mooks. They don’t have the EVs or IVs to really stack up to you anyways. Major MUs like Gyms and whatnot tell us so much more than these mooks ever will.
Times have changed for the lists and concepts of old get replaced with better ideas all the time. Do you have to agree and like them? No. But complaining about it in every thread won’t do anything.
I would say that given my experiences with both in RBY fairly recently for the RBY list, Mt. Moon and Rock Tunnel should definitely carry some importance. It’s a pain to walk back and heal once you are far along in both. After some quick research I noticed one big change from RBY and that is the fact you can actually buy Repel at the Pewter City Poke Mart (this was not the case in RBY). That should at least keep the infamous Zubat from being annoying.
That being said, both Mt. Moon and Rock Tunnel have a lot of trainers in them, so I’d say if you fare decently for both (particularly if you have a Squirtle / Bulbasaur) you should get a small viability boost, though there are some Lasses around Charmander can prey on. The average mon might struggle some but it’s not like there’s a vast array of Water, Grass or Fire types until midgame either.
I feel like the whole focus on major battles started fairly recently. I still remember people talking about Pokemon's performance "in the field" a few years ago in R/S/E thread. Most of Pokemon games consists of sweeping regular trainers so if some Pokemon fail to do it efficiently then they fail in a big chunk of a game (e.q. Wobbuffet). I noticed experience groups being discussed much more frequently and it surprises me.
To be fair people do take that into consideration, it's just an incredibly low bar to clear.
It's not often we run into more extreme cases like GSC Gastly being all but deadweight until mid-game but managing to cheese bosses. Even the rougher cases like say, Kanto Bulbasaur and Johto Chikorita are bad but still fairly manageable. People do take that into consideration (It's why Chikorita is one of the most hated starters in the franchise) but again, it's not a hard bar to clear.
As for Bulbasaur itself, it's incredibly useful early-game, and then it starts to fall off. It's a rather inconsistent mon, when Grass is good (Misty, Caves) it routs everything with little to no effort, but most times, it struggles hard (Rockets.).
If it has a solid Normal move to bypass its bad matchups, it performs decently and allows early-game flexibility, otherwise, it's going to suck.
Sounds like a B-Tier mon to me tbh. I'd give it at least Secret Power ASAP.
No. This is not what I tried to convey with my last message. I personally disagree with you but as you said - we don't have to agree. If you find yourself displeased with my opinions now then you probably won't be in the future.
I feel the same here, honestly. Bulbasaur is not really an A tier material (unlike Mankey who has amazing movepool). I used it twice and I think it's above average (so no C tier either).
Ryota : Good luck with IRL man, I hope things will get better.
Really great job for this thread and I agree with every change made (really glad to see Sandshrew and Machoke in D especially). Most things are well-settled but I'm going to comment every mon with an asterisk, with hide tags for Pokemon with only a *
Bulbasaur is totally good in A-tier, it's the best starter and Texas' log clearly shocases how good it is because outside of Blaine and Agatha, it only has potent matchup.
Nidoran-M is alright in A. It has an amazing early to mid game and still does somethig in late-game.
Snorlax is fine in A. It's just so bulky and strong and can oustall and slowly kill everything but Bruno with RestStalk.
Squirtle is fitting A-tier. It's a really consistent Pokemon throughout the game, just not dominant enough to be S-tier but still one of the very best options available.
Staryu is perfect for A-tier. It requires several TMs but outside of needing a Potion for Lorelei and Champion, it's close to Jynx performance and just wins easily in every important fight.
Charmander is pretty borderline between A and B-tier because while it has many disadvantageous matchups like Brock and Misty, it manages to outperform in them. I don't mind either tier.
Clefairy is fine in B. It's like Nidoking in the sense it's better early to mid-game but does way worse in late-game, thus why B-tier is better for it.
Doduo fits perfectly B-tier. It's really strong and has good matchup but between being available in mid-game and its fraility, it can't be A-tier.
Exeggcute was really fun to use bu it comes too late to be A-tier.
Growlithe is alright in B. It's one of the weakest B-tier but still does well against Erika and Koga and except for Bruno, it has an alright performance most of the time. It's way better than Ninetales mostly due to Dig and better stats across.
Psyduck is fine in B. It's really great thanks to Calm Mind and Water is a strong typing but between being hard to find, coming late and being useless for Lorelei, it can't be A-tier.
Lapras js fine in B. It has reall great stats, has a better Sabina matchup compared to other water and can actually severly dent Lorelei with Thunderbolt.
Machamp is fine in B, it's too slow compared to other fighting.
Nidoran-F is fine in B. The speed matters a lot (for instance it doesn't outspeed Dugtrio against Giovanni like Nidoking does), the bulk isn't important and the difference in power is noticeable (Nidoking can 2HKO Lorelei's Dewgong while Nidoqueen can't).
Slowpoke is fine in B. It's one of the best in the group but it's too tricky to find and hard to train for A-tier.
Spearow is fine in B. It's really great for the early to mid-game but falls toward Blaine and doesn't fare too well against Lorelei.
Drowzee is fine in C. I could be wrong because I don't find my logs using it but Drowzee was terrible before evolving and even Hypno was fairly weak (for instance it can't OHKO Lapras at +6 with Psychic) and unlike Kadabra/Alakazam, it doesn't have Psychic.
Flareon is cool to use, it beats easily Erika, Sabrina and does extremly well against Agatha. The rest is mostly neutral matchup but Flareon still puts in weight and does something.
Jolteon, just like every other electric-type outside Zapdos is fine in C. It really needs the Thunderbolt TM and even then it's nothing impressive.
Krabby is good enough for C-tier. Water is always strong and the physical attack is great for Lorelei compared to things like Dewgong and Seaking.
Poliwag is fine in C. It's one of the few Water actually helpful against Lorelei and it just wins as easily against Blaine and Giovanni at the cost of a worse Sabrina.
Shellder is alright in C. It's possibly the worst water in C but Ice Stab is always great for Lance.
Venonat fits perfectly C-tier. It's really annoying to evolve but between Sleep Powder and actually good coveragd with Psychic, Aerial Ace and Giga Drain, Venomoth is surprisingly good.
Voltorb is good in C. It's the worst electric but it outspeeds everything, which helps immensely against Lance, is available earlier and can explode if needed.
Aerodactyl absolutely deserves C-tier. Yes it's hard to get at it at the same level as the rest of the team but it makes up for it wih an impressive performance. Aerodactyl is just great in every major fight really from Sabrina to champion and should absolutely be C.
Omanyte could stay in D-tier. It's really strong, defeating Sabrina, Blaine, Giovanni with ease while being strong for Agatha and Lance. Unlike Aerodactyl, it's not dominant enough for C-tier.
Zubat is fine in D. Golbat is surprisingly good in gym battles, defeating with ease Erika and Giovanni while doing extremly well against Misty. C-tier would be too much tho as it's really hard to train and doesn't help a lot outside of these specific battles.
So yeah, except for Aerodactyl which really needs to move up, I agree with everything with *.
Now, onto the mons with ** :
Himonlee should definitely go to B-tier. Unlike Primeape, you can't use it for Brock and it doesn't win against Agatha. I feel that between losing to Koga, having average performance against Blaine and Lance and being found in mid-game, it can't be A-tier. B-tier also solves the issue of Lee being 2 tiers above Chan as they are mostly similar and one tier of difference is enough tbh and Hitmonchan is fine in C-tier because it's not that good, it loses to the same things as Hitmonlee but loses to Erika as well and needs 1 more Bulk Up most of the time.
Gengar I can see it being A-tier actually. I wasn't too sure when using it as I barely considered the exp needed but honestly the argument RYota presented are great. While I find Starmie better, especially for Blaine and Lance, needing less TMs and being easier to train makes up for that so having them in the same tier would make sense. Haunter in B also makes sense, when doing my tier list, it felt weird to have it in the same tier as Gengar as it's worse (it can't beat Alakazam and the difference of power is noticeable, for instance Lance's Gyarados is a range) but I still wanted it in B-tier somehow and this fixes the issue.
Golem should 100% be C-tier. It's better than Graveler for sure but still nothing impressive. It can't defeat Blaine and hardly loses to Misty and Erika and had an awful E4 performance, netting at most one ko. Really, Golem isn't good and should 100% be C-tier, just read my logs about it really.
Pikachu should also go to C. Learning Thunderbolt naturally is admitedly great but it doesn't help that much as it hardly loses to Brock, can't win against Misty despite the type advantage, average against Koga and is pretty much the same as other electric afterwards. Really, it has the advantage of learning Thunderbolt naturally and being found earlier but honestly, it should be in the same tier as others electric-types because they are mostly similar, which is C-tier.
Tentacool is fine in B imo. I was pretty doubtful of its ranking before using it but t's way better than expected. Poison type is an advantage as unlike most other water outside of Golduck and Slowbro, it has a really strong matchup against Bruno thanks to Clear Body and can beat both Onix as well as at least one hitmon (most of the time the two). Sabrina is surprisingly not that bad as Tentacruel outspeeds everything, 2HKOes with Surf and its enormous special bulk helps taking hits. Blaine and Giovanni are as easy as usual for a water type and the ground weakness doesn't matter as only Nidoqueen can take a Surf but it can't OHKO back. Another advantage Tentacool has over other Water is that it's incredibly easy to find and you can use the Repel Trick to get it at a high level. Really, between actual good Sabrina fight (honestly it was better than Krabby for instance), clear wins against Blaine and Giovanni, great Bruno performance and good enough Lance and champion, it's better than water-types in C.
Cubone should honestly go to D-tier, just like Sandshrew. Sandshrew I felt was better as you could use it to solo Surge, something you can't do with Cubone, unless you want late Surge (which shouldn't be too hard as even without a ground-type you will be overleveled) and didn't do much outside of this as it's too slow and not even strong. I admitedly didn't use Thick Club but it's a 5% chance to find it on a 10% chance to encounter the Pokemon.... Even then, I doubt it would be useful because it's too slow and prone to get whittle down. Koga would still be difficult due to Smokescreen and relying on unaccurate moves, Sabrina can overwhelm with Psychic moves, just like Blaine with Fire Blast. The Elite 4 is bad as outside of Bruno (Hitmonchan shouldn't be able to use Counter with Thick Club), I can't think of a better matchup, Lorelei is still hard due to super effective moves, Agatha is still problematic due to hax and Lance will easily overwhelm. Another problem I had with Marowak is that before getting Earthquake, it only uses unaccurate moves as Bone Club and Bonemarang as well as Rock Slide aren't reliable enough which can be curical in major fights. Really, I don't think Cubone should be C-tier, it's quite frankly bad and while I could be wrong about Thick Club, having a 0.5% chance to find it only to have a better Bruno matchup looks pretty bad honestly.
Diglett is probably worth D-tier too. Ground-types aren't good in this game and while it's a bit better than Sandshrew and Cubone, I can't see it in C. Yes, it does way better against Sabrina and rival's Alakazam but it's frailer and weaker ompared to them and is actually fairly hard to train due to this. Speaking of which, it's probably better to catch a Diglett than a Dugtrio because Dugtrio won't have Magnitude and Dig is especially weak on Diglett, not to mention, it means a hard loss against Giovanni. Really, it sweeps Surge with ease and can pick up Alakazam against Sabrina and Rival but it's mostly useless outside of this so I feel it should go to D-tier.
Dratini is fine in C imo. It's actually pretty solid before getting Dragonite as Dratini can defeat Erika and Dragonair does well against Blaine and GiovannI. Getting Dragonite isn't that hard thanks to Dragon Rage and once Dragonair evolves it becomes a monster. Dragonite can take down up to 3 mons against Lorelei despite the type disadvantage, sweeps Bruno, does extremly well against Agatha and Lance (it can beat the three dragons as well as Gyarados assuming it outspeeds it) and Champion. Really Dratini was better than expected as it's not that hard to train and only requires the Thunderbolt TM really and Dragonite had an overwhelming performance in the league.
I wouldn't mind either C or D on Tangela. It has a few good matchup like Giovanni and Bruno where it cleanly sweeps and can be useful if it sets up on Cloyster against Lorelei and ko Gyarados and Rhydon/Water-type against Rival. It's hard to rank because it overperforms in good matchup and is utterly bad in others but being so dominant in some important fights could be enough to push it to C-tier tho D-rank works as well.
Rattata I guess could go to C-tier (tho I'm not too sure on that). It's really good for the early game and starts becoming worse fom Erika onward. I feel early encountering, strong early game and the ability to contribute afterwards can be enough for C-tier, albeit barely. It feels closer to Seel than things like Sandshrew performance wise so C-tier would make sense in that regard.
Scyther is C-rank worthy imo. It's annoying to get but it makes up for by cleanly sweeping Erika, Sabrina, Koga and Agatha (this one is great due to how annoying she can be due to the hax involved). Blaine is bad and as is Bruno but against Giovanni and Lorelei you can set up on Dugtrio and Cloyster respectively and proceed to sweep. Scyther is really matchup up reliant and odd in he fact it doesn't always set up against the first mon but it has strong wins in major fights and that should be enougn to be in the same tier as something like Vileplume for instance.
Vulpix I did a run with it recently and Turdterra will provide informations about it but I found it pretty bad outside of Erika and it barely does anything at the E4.
Kabuto should 100% be D-tier. Just like Omanyte, it easily sweeps Blaine and Giovanni (by setting up Rain Dance on Dugtrio you can proceed to OHKO everything), wins against Sabrina (everything is outspeed and OHKOed but Alakazam which can't take Mud Shot + Rock Slide). Lorelei is pretty good as it can 2HKO everything but Slowbro while easily taking down Jynx. It can also easily defeat Aerodactyl against Lance and is alright for Champion as it beats both Pidgeot and Fire-type.
tl;dr :
Really strong support for Aerodactyl in C, it's really that good to make up for coming at level 5, Golem in C as it struggles too much against the Elite 4, Cubone in D and Kabuto in D.
Strong support for Hitmonlee in B, Gengar in A, Pikachu in C, Tentacool in B, Diglett in D, Scyther in C and Vulpix in D.
Somewhat support Rattata in C.
I might try doing some runs later on, mostly trying to use Dragonite, Aerodactyl and Kabuto. I may use Bulbasaur, Rattata, Drowzee, Scyther, Tentacool and Kabuto soon (going to detail the training for Bulbasaur because I found it easier than what was said in previous posts, Kabuto because it's a lvl5 mon and how much time it takes to get a high level Tentacruel).
Psyduck is fine in B. It's really great thanks to Calm Mind and Water is a strong typing but between being hard to find, coming late and being useless for Lorelei, it can't be A-tier.
How is Psyduck hard to find? It has a 100% encounter rate at the small pond in Fuchsia City, so right after you leave the Safari Zone with Surf. Not to mention the level range is 20-40, so you can also use the Repel Trick just like with Tentacool. But Tentacool has a wider level range, so the chance to catch a high level Psyduck are actually even better than with Tentacool. The TM for Rain Dance is also just next to the pond in Route 15, so that's another viable boosting option as Surf spam is still pretty viable. The TMs it can use are impressive, the natural movepool is pretty poor though.
I wasn't clear but I wanted to mean that if you want to use it for Koga (something you really want to do because it has a strong performance) it's not that easy to find because it's only a 1% or 5% encounter using Super Rod and you're not guaranteed to find it at a high level. Otherwise, by using Surf, it's incredibly easy to find as you stated but you miss a great matchup (Golduck OHKOes Koffing, 2HKOes Weezing and 3HKOes Muk so barring major unluck it should win most of the time).
Golduck is really great apart from this as Calm Mind is a great move and Calm Mind/Surf/Ice Beam is all what it needs really (Rain Dance can be used but after defeating Sabina, it's better to set up Calm Mind anyway). It sweeps easily Koga, Blaine, Giovanni and has a strong performance against Sabrina, Agatha, Lance and champion. I just feel that between being hard to encounter at a good level before Koga and bad performance against Lorelei, it can't go to A-tier, tho it's one of the most solid B-tier.
hey guys, I should be back now. I may be slightly slower with providing tests, as I am still recooperating, but I should be able to assist, for now.
There are a lot of things to address, so this post may be slightly big. I will hide stuff in tags so you can read whatever is relevant to you, may not address everything, so if you need clarification on something, hmu.
1. We tier until you roll the credits. This means that we don't consider the rematches or the post-game Sevii Islands quest.
2. We tier throughout the game. If something is good only for a specific portions of the game, it likely won't rank high, but it won't be bottom tier either.
3. Vs Seeker is allowed if you wanna level match, but that's about it. You really shouldn't be using this as an argument in support of anything, you can just use it if you feel too low in levels, I don't care if you use it or not, as long as you are transparent
B-tier isn't out of question, I'd like to use it myself / get more thoughts on it before I do anything with it. Zebes's thoughts on it mirror what I have experienced with it in the past, though he's wrong about the Psychic thing; Hypno learns it at level 35, though Confusion might be too weak for Erika, but that has to be tested
-GetaX-'s nominations from the last post from page 1:
Bulbasaur: so, C-tier isn't happening, because we aren't speedrunning. B-tier is very much possible, in my opinion, as I also felt a really mediocre mid-game and the end-game could've been better; it can sweep Lorelei and Bruno, but relies on Sleep + quite the amount of Growths to sweep and Sleep Powder isn't the most consistent thing to rely on (due to inaccuracy + sleep counter). I don't think it's too bad against Rocket Grunts, as you will be outleveling them, in most cases, and you have solid Normal coverage at this point (Secret Power can be bought); only Magnemite line resists you at SIlph Co. and you aren't likely to solo the whole building with one Pokemon due to experience distribution for your team anyways. The opinions of A vs B are certainly split, so more opinions will be appreciated (preferably with logs or just thorough analysis on matchups)
Mankey: I am not sure if S-tier is good for Mankey, as it has some bad matchups, mainly due to the fact that Fighting isn't really favorable against multiple matchups, mostly Misty, Koga and Agatha, though my Primeape relied a lot on Mega Kick to achieve KOs without huge set ups. If someone wants to support this, I am open to it, but consensus is leaning towards A-tier and I'd rather stick with it.
no comments on the other nominations
route cleaning
I don't really care that much about route cleaning, as this is reasonably doable by most Pokemon, even ones in D-tier. You are outleveling most opponents if you aren't purposely trying to be underleveled, which makes it even easier to route clean, even with somewhat average stats. Furthermore, one has to keep in mind that most of them aren't mandatory, but we fight them anyways because we aren't soloing, but using bigger teams.
The only time I even take into account route cleaning is if something sucks at it, e.g. Magikarp, but that's cause you are going to have worse matchups if you don't gain experience and thus end up underleveled, so you are going to resort to inefficiency in order to make the Pokemon okay for major fights.
Boss fights are ultimately what you need to get past in order to beat the games. And even then, I generally concern myself with the actually important (to me) fights; for example, the first two Giovanni fights and the earlier rival fights are so easy that I do not get any good insight from them, so I just don't bother with those.
speedrunning
It is important to make a distinction between an efficient run and a speedrun, the latter of which we are definitely not considering.
Speedruns aim to get the lowest possible in-game time for completion. Those typically involve heavy RNGing and other segmentations in order to (not) trigger certain luck aspects of the game (e.g. rolling a Master Ball to catch Raikou/Entei). While those runs are "shorter" for the game, the actual effort and real time spent on achieving the result may be much bigger than what is displayed.
Efficient runs, on the other hand, simply aim to complete the games at a reasonable speed and with considerably little effort and resources. Rather than track in-game time, efficient runs are more concerned with real time spent on achieving the result. So here, we generally emphasize moreso on "little effort" (which, by extension, generally leads to faster completion) rather than in-game speed.
other things to announce:
- in a few days, I will lock Snorlax to A-tier if no one wants to object to its tier.
- I haven't commented on most nominations to keep the post short. But to highlight some Pokemon in need of more discussion: Kabuto, Bulbasaur, Dratini, other things that I cannot think of right now
- I haven't commented on logs, as I want them to be finished first.
the following Pokemon are most likely to change tiers once current runs with them are over:
Here are the logs and explanations (I tried to explain how the training went for Bulbasaur but honestly there isn't much to say and detailed a bit how it was for Kabuto and Tentacool) :
Road to Brock : Bulbasaur really has no troubles here as it can easily 3HKO Weedle and Caterpie with Tackle and Leech Seed outdamages their hits so Leech Seed and 2 Tackle is enough to guarantee the ko while not needing to heal at Pokemon Center
Brock (11) : 2 Vine Whip and done, Onix outspeeds but does paltry damages.
Road to Misty : Mt. Moon wasn't any problem because Bulbasaur/Ivysaur easily takes hits and can 2/3HKO most things with either Tackle or Vine Whip. Healing was only necessary at Route 3 and at Cerulean. Rival was good outside of Charmander and Nugget Bridge is easy as usual, not much problem here.
Misty (20) : Vine Whip 2HKOes Staryu and 3HKOes Starmie but after 2 Swift from the latter, Ivysaur is in Overgrow and 2HKOes it. Another easy win here. One more level would guarantee an OHKO and 2HKO but either way it's a solid win here anyway.
Road to Surge : Getting Razor Leaf is great because it's stronger and 25 PPs is enormous. I taught Secret Power and it's way stronger than Tackle and can 2HKO most foes so Ivysaur has no troubles getting experience honestly.
Surge (25) : 2HKO Voltorb with Razor Leaf, OHKO Pikachu with it and 3HKO Raichu, not much troubles winning here. You can even Leech Seed Raichu to make sure you'll be able to hit through Double Team but Ivysaur cleanly wins here.
Road to Erika : Grass-types like Oddish, Bellsprout and Bulbasaur as well as Pidgey and the various Koffing and Grimer are 2HKOed by Secret Power and things like Meowth gets OHKOed by Razor Leaf. Rock Tunnel is a great place to grind as Ivysaur can easily OHKO ground-types and Slowpoke here. Rocket Corner is more than fine as Zubat is OHKOed by Secret Power and the rest is 2HKOed by it. Getting to level 32 by Erika was more than fine without even fighting all trainers.
Erika (32) : Pretty weird battle that I tried with and without Sleep Powder. Secret Power 3HKOes Victreebel and Tangela and 4HKOes Vileplume. Acid does around 12-15% so it takes a while for Victreebel and Vileplume to actually ko Venusaur. It's better to use 2 Razor Leaf on Tangela to activate the Hyper Potion on it because it barely damages (Giga Drain does 3 damages and Constrict does 2) so that Vileplume won't have it. Venusaur should ba able to win in this case with a Cheri Berry as long as paralysis doesn't hit more than twice on Victreebel and Vileplume. Alternivately, Sleep Powder makes this free because you can afford one miss on Victreebel because it always goes for Stun Spore, ko it most of the time, Tangela will barely damage and Vileplume will instantly go for Stun Spore. Pretty good fight actually and Venusaur has great odds to win even without Sleep Powder and using it nearly assumes a win.
Road to Koga : Once again, this was more than fine. You can 3HKO Koffing and Machamp, OHKO Mankey and 2HKO Primeape on Cycling Road while not taking too much damages. Even Lavender Tower is fine because Gastly can get OHKOed by Razor Leaf and doesn't really damage back, Marowak got 2HKOed by Razor Leaf and Secret Power OHKOes the Zubat from Rocket Grunt. Getting 5 levels for Koga was easy as the only thing Venusaur couldn't defeat is Hypno from the Juggler in Koga's gym.
Koga (37) : Koffing is 3HKOed by Strength and you have to use Sleep Powder on them because Self-Destruct nearly OHKOes. Muk actually doesn't require Sleep Powder and it's better to use Leech Seed on it as 2 turns outheals the Sludge damages. It can take quite some times but by using Leech Seed and Strength, Venusaur can slowly but surely whittle down Muk while having decent enough health for Weezing. Strength is a 4HKO on Muk but between Minimize and Acid Armor, it's way better to use Leech Seed to beat it more reliably and ensure you'll be healthy enough for Weezing. This last mon requires Sleep Powder once again as between Smokescreen and Sludge, Venusaur won't be as effective. Afterwards, use Leech Seed and Strength and 3 turns should be enough to ko the last mon. Obviously this fight relies on Sleep Powder but having done it several times, it resulted most of the time in the win. A positive thing here is that you can afford to take a hit from Koffing (they always go for Sludge and not Smokescreen turn 1 it seems) and by healing on Muk, Weezing is largely feasible. In the worst case, you should be able to take 3 mons, which is moe than alright considering the type disadvantage.
Road to Sabrina : Once again it was fine honestly. Secret Power is enough to 2HKO things that resists Grass-type and Venusaur has the bulk to take repeated hits.
Sabrina (40) : Strength OHKOes Kadabra that gets outspeeds. Mr.Mime never attacks and either goes for Barrier or sometimes Calm Mind. If it uses Barrier, Strength+Razor Leaf 2HKOes. Alakazam is 2HKOed by Strength but outspeeds so it's better to put it asleep. Psychic nearly koes (Venusaur had like 8 HP left) but you always live it. You have to use Sleep Powder twice tho due to Full Heal. Venomoth is 3HKOed by Strength but assuming Alakazam goes for Future Sight, you have the bulk to take 2 Psybeam and thanks to Overgrow Strength+Razor Leaf+ Strength is enough for the 3HKO without activating heal range. This fight is hasardous but assuming Sleep Powder hits, Venusaur should be able to take down Alakazam. At the very worse, you take down Kadabra and Mr.Mime and do half to Alakazam. If the AI uses Psychic + Future Sight you can beat Alakzam. Not the best fight but Venusaur can somehow kill 3 mons and rarely win by itself.
Road to Blaine : Not much problems, Secret Power 2HKOes most things here anyway and Razor Leaf 2HKOes Magnemite.
Blaine (42) : Strength 2HKOes Growlithe and Ponyta so you should try to put them asleep. Rapidash is 3HKOed by Strength so it also needs Sleep Powder. Arcanine is impossible to get through tho. Venusaur relies on SleepSeed but assuming a miss can afford to take one Fire Blast, which helps a lot and as such taking down at least the baby is highly likely and there i great odds for Rapidash as well.
Giovanni (45) : Razor Leaf OHKOes Rhyhorn and Dugrio, which is surprisingly outsped. Nidoqueen needs to be put asleep, use Leech Seed+2 Razor Leaf for the ko. Razor Leaf+Overgrow Razor Leaf is enough for Nidoking. Not hard to win here and Venusaur can afford to take 2 Earthquake from Nidoqueen so it shouldn't be too difficult to pull a win.
Lorelei (51) : Razor Leaf 3HKOes Dewgong and Lapras so put them asleep and 3HKO them. Slowbro is a 2HKO and you take its Ice Beam alright so it's feasible without using Sleep Powder. Jynx is 2HKOed by Strength and you outspeed thus it's better to put it asleep as Ice Punch hits quite hard. You rely a bit on Sleep Powder but between bad AI, Leech Seed recovery, it's really not hard to pull a win here.
By the way, Sunny Beam makes this totally free as you OHKO Dewgong, Slowbro and Cloyster and 2HKO Jynx and Lapras. Not much problems as if Dewgong goes for Safeguard, you can not put Lapras asleep 2HKOing while taing an Ice Beam and will only rely on Sleep Powder for Jynx.
Bruno (51) : Razor Leaf OHKOes Onix. Hitmonchan and Machamp barely do damages and 2 turns of Leech Seed outheals Rock Tomb/Sky Uppercut. Hitmonlee does more damages with Mega Kick but you outspeed and 3HKO it (2HKO with Razor Leaf + Overgrow Razor Leaf). Sleep Powder is mostly necessary for Hitmonlee and ensure you beat Hitmonchan and Machamp but this matchup is essentially free as they can't hurt you and you recover quickly with Leech Seed while 3HKOing Lee and Chan and 4HKOing Machamp. Clean win here.
Agatha (51) : Gengar 1 is easily beaten by Leech Seed as it barely damages Venusaur. Avoid Golbat as Air Cutter does too much. Haunter relies on Sleep Powder because it has Dream Eater. Arbok is a bit threatening due to Sludge Bomb but got outsped and can be beaten with SleepSeed. Gengar 2 doesn't do much damages so barring Hypnosis+Nightmare, it should get defeated. AI and luck reliant but Venusaur should at worst take down the 2 Gengar without much troubles and Haunter and Arbok are feasible with Sleep Powder.
Lance (52) : Avoid Dragonite as you barely damage and Aerodactyl due to Wing Attack. Gyarados is easily defeated as Dragon Rage nearly does the same amount Leech Seed heals. Dragonair aren't threatening outside of Hyper Beam, which they never use so Venu has nontroubles defeating them with Leech Seed.
Champion (52) : Beats Rhydon with Razor Leaf, Gyarados with SleepSeed and Exeggutor with Sleep and Strength.
Brock (13) : Tried this at level 13 to see how it would fare with Hyper Fang. It actually 6HKOes Geodude which 6HKOes with Tackle. By using Tail Whip when it uses Defense Curl, Rattata is actually able to defeat Geodude as long as it hits which is better than expected.
Misty (21) : Outspeeds only Staryu that gets OHKOed by Hyper Fang. Starmie outspeeds but only 3HKOes while getting 2HKOed by Hyper Fang so barring miss or confusion, Raticate is favored here.
Surge (25) : Hyper Fang OHKOes both Voltorb and Pikachu. Hyper Fang doesn't activate healing range and Quick Attack will ko afterwards.
Erika (31) : I equipped Cheri Berry. Hyper Fang 2HKOes both Victreebel and Tangela (even through Giga Drain for the latter) and 3HKOes VIleplume. Thanks to Guts, Hyper Fang becomes a 2HKO and Raticate can afford to take one Giga Drain from Tangela and one from VIleplume. It's reliant on Hyper Fang hitting and para to get the win but still good regardless as even with a miss you beat the first 2 mon and put a third to Vileplume.
Koga (38) : Return 2HKOes Koffing, Muk gets 3HKOes by Return +Quick Attack + Return (to avoid healing range) and Weezing is 3HKOed by Return. With Poison, Muk is 2HKOed by Return and Weezing becomes a favorable range for the 2HKO and in this case, it's better to use Quick Attack into Return to avoid healing range on Koffing 2. It's heavily AI and luck reliant between Smokescreen, Sludge and poison and Raticate will very rarely be able to win but it can still put in damages and should beat at least Koffing 1 and Muk (as long as it doesn't use Acid Armor) and most of the time Koffing 2.
Sabrina (40) : Raticate outspeeds everything. The Psychic are OHKOed by Return while Venomoth is 2HKOed but doesn't do much back. Clear win from Raticate here.
Blaine (42) : Avoid the Growlithe line due to Intimidate. Ponyta is OHKOed by Return and Rapidash is 2HKOed and you can take a Fire Blast so you beat both. Not really good due to Intimidate but you still take down 2 things.
Giovanni (45) : Beats Dugtrio, OHKOing with Return and a Nido. Both are 2HKOed by Return but 1 Earthquake from each is a kill. Pretty bad here.
Lorelei (51) : Dewgong is 3HKOed by Return but 2HKOes back with Surf/Ice Beam, thanks to the bad AI, beating it is doable tho. Otherwise, it can beat Jynx with Double Edge.
Bruno (51) : Nop.
Agatha (51) : Outspeed and 2HKO Gengar 1 with Shadow Ball. Golbat is 3HKOed by Return and you can afford to take 2 Air Cutter. Haunter is outsped and 2HKOed by Shadow Ball so it's beatable if Hypnosis doesn't hit. Arbok does way too much damages and has Intimidate and Gengar 2 outspeeds and is only 3HKOedwhile doing too much with Sludge Bomb. Pretty good as Raticate can hope to defeat 3 mons here.
Lance (51) : 2HKO Dragonair with Return, while getting 2HKOed by Outrage. Because the first one tends to go for Safeguard and the second uses Dragon Rage all the time, Raticate should beat them.
Champion (51) : Nop, everything is too bulky and strong here.
Surge (26) : Tried this both as a Drowzee and Hypno to see the differences because it's actually not that simple to get to level 26 with a Drowzee.
Drowzee : Confusion 3HKOes Voltorb and Pikachu. However, Sonic Boom does too much so Drowzee can realistically only take down Voltorb and will then fall to Pikachu.
Hypno : Confusion 2HKOes Voltorb and falls short of OHKOing Pikachu, which is actually not that bad because it actiates the Super Potion. Raichu is 4HKOed by Confusion but between Thunder Wave, Double Team and Voltorb possibly having used Sonic Boom, it's hard for Hypno to sweep here.
Erika (31) : Confusion 2HKOes Victreebel (which is outsped) and Tangela while Vileplume is 3HKOed. With a Cheri Berry, Hypno has no troubles winning as it beats Victreebel without taking damages, Tangela does nothing and VIleplume does platry damages while getting 3HKOed through Giga Drain healing. Clean win.
Koga (37) : Psychic OHKOes Koffing, 2HKOes Weezing and 3HKOes Muk (it's better to use Psychic+Confusion+Psychic against it to avoid healing range). The problem is that either 2 Sludge from Muk and one from Weezing or a first turn Toxic from Muk and Sludge from Muk ko Hypno. It should still be a win as these events are unlikely to happen but still Hypno isn't as reliable as other Psychic-types forn this fight.
Sabrina (40) : Hypno isn't good here unless it uses Shadow Ball. Going to describe with and without it
Without Shadow Ball : Headbutt doesn't even OHKO Kadabra, which outspeeds. It's better to use Heabutt, put Kadabra in red so that Sabrina won't use the Hyper Potion on Alakazam. Kadabra tends to go for Calm Mind and then Future Sight and that does around 35%. Then Venomoth comes and you can't OHKO with Psychic while it goes for either Supersonic or more frequently Leech Life, that does 10%, meaning Hypno will be close to mid-health after defeating it. Mr.Mime is 3HKOed by Headbutt but is fortunately outsped. If it goes for Barrier, it's a loss, otherwise it's going to weaken. Then comes Alakazam that is 3HKOed by Headbutt but by then 3 Psychic will be enough to ko Hypno. Really, not a good fight, even for Sabrina, there is too many conditions to win between Supersonic, Barrier and Alakazam attacking 3 times with Psychic.
With Shadow ball : Shadow Ball OHKOes Kadabra and Mr.Mime while Alakazam is 2HKOed. Venomoth is 2HKOed by Psychic and outsped. Clean win here but buying a TM only for this fight is rather deceiving.
Blaine (42) : Once again, Hypno is bad. It takes 4 CM to OHKO Arcanine, the problem is barring healing, it's impossible to set up because Fire Blast+Take Down from Growlithe does nearly half. It's not hard to get to +4 but then Arcanine comes second and is going to ko with Take Down. Because Arcanine always comes second, you can only beat Growlithe. Assuming you try to 2HKO Growlithe with Psychic, ko Arcanine with something and then come back on Ponyta, you can set up CM twice on it, OHKO it with Psychic and then face Rapidash. 2 Stomp from it is going to ko from there but if it goes for Fire Spin, you can actually 2HKO it. Anyway, Hypno performs rather poorly, you rely on poor AI to beat 3 mons and you have to switch out against the most threatening one that you can't hope to defeat.
Giovanni (45) : OHKO Rhyhorn with Psychic. Set up a Calm Mind on Dugtrio and OHKO everything with Psychic, outspeeding the Nidos. Clean win here.
Lorelei (51) : Hypno isn't going too far here as even +6 Psychic doesn't even OHKO Lapras. By setting up 6 CM, you can 2HKO Dewgong with Psychic and Lapras through Sitrus Berry, while barely taking a Body Slam. You can OHKO Cloyster with Psychic and Slowbro comes next and only takes half from Psychic while koing back. With healing, Hypno should sweep but still it's only an average matchup.
Bruno (51) : Again, this isn't really reliable. You need 2 CM to OHKO Lee, Chan and Onix and 3 for Machamp, the problem is that Hitmon outspeed and Sky Uppercut + Mega Kick nearly koes. It's better to use Hypnosis on Onix, set up 3 CM and try to win from here but you're reliant on not missing Hypnosis and not getting hit by Onix as otherwise, Hypno can't win.
Agatha (51) : Set up 2 CM on Gengar 1, OHKO it, Golbat and Arbok with Psychic. Then, Gengar 2 will ko. The problem is that between Confuse Ray, Double Team, first turn Toxic etc. even beating these 3 Pokemon is an hard task. Hypno also has no troubles beating Haunter but it's never a threat and attempting to beat these 3 mons is better imo.
Lance (52) : Beats the Dragonair, using 3 CM and attacking. Won't beat anything else tho.
Champion (52) : 2HKOes Alakazam with Shadow Ball while easily taking Psychic. Won't beat anything else but that's something.
Getting Scyther was extremly annoying. I had to sell Nugget, several uneeded tms like Psychic or Rock Tomb and face many trainers (I faced 2 Beauty from Erika gym, all Rocket Grunt and first trainers from Cycling Road and use hidden coins. Fortunately, level 25 is decent for this time of the game. Then, I trained Scyther in the "fight gym" where it outspeeds everything but the level 36 Primeape and 2HKOes eerything with Aerial Ace (except Mankey that gets OHKOed). I could then face Erika and it had a similar level to the rest of the team. Afterwards, training it was alright as it can 2HKO most things with Aerial Ace. Something I should have noticed before is the Timid nature which could have an impact.
Erika (30) : Aerial Ace OHKOes Victreebel and Tangela and 2HKOes Vileplume. With a Cheri Berry, this is a no damage sweep and even without, it's a clean win
Koga (36) : Set up 3 Swords Dance on Koffing as it goes for Smokescreen and then Aerial Ace will ko everything, only Weezing is a range (might have something to do with the Timid nature). But, Scyther easily takes a Sludge so it has no troubles winning here.
Sabrina (41) : Scyther outspeeds everything. Set up a Swords Dance on Kadabra (2 if it goes for Reflect) and OHKO everything with Aerial Ace. Third sweep in a row.
Blaine (43) : Scyther can take a Fire Blast from Growlithe and set up a Swords Dance on it. After a boost, it OHKOes Growlithe, Ponyta and does 2/3 to Rapidash. Assuming a Fire Blast miss, Rapidash gets koed by Aerial Ace and you can do half to Arcanine. Not the best matchup especially considering Growlithe and Ponyta are mostly free but it's still something.
Giovanni (45) : If you manage to ko Rhyhorn with something, you can actually set up 3 Swords Dance on Dugtrio as its Slash does nothing (even 3 crited hits won't ko) and proceed to OHKO Nidos and Dugtrio with Aerial Ace and Rhyhorn with Steel Wing. Pretty weird to set up in the middle of the game but it works.
Lorelei (51) : Once again, Scyther can set up on the second Pokemon, Cloyster. After 3 Swords Dance, you can put Cloyster to red, Slowbro is a favorable range (it would have been nice to see with a positive or even neutral nature) and the rest gets OHKOed.
Bruno (52) : Machamp is beatable 1v1 by using Swords Dance as Scyther lives a Rock Tomb and outspeeds even after the speed drop. Onix are too bulky and except for Hitmonlee, which is sent in the end of the fight Scyther can't really set up. Hitmonchan can take a Aerial Ace and outspeeds after Rock Tomb while Hitmonlee gets HKOed by Aerial Ace. Not a god matchup but at least Scyther can take down the signature mon and possibly Hitmonlee afterwards.
Agatha (52) : Set up 3 SD and an Agility and Scyther OHKOes everything with Aerial Ace. Clean sweep here, you can equip a Persim Berry or Pecha to secure it but it should result in a sweep.
Lance (52) : Pretty bad. You can't set up on Gyarados because it 3HKOes with 2 Dragon Rage and Hyper Beam. Dragonite is too bulky and it takes 3 Swords Dance to ko it. With a Cheri Berry, Scyther is able to take down the 2 Dragonair with a +4 Aerial Ace, living 2 Outrage.
Champion (52/53) : Once again, setting up is weird. Venusaur is a free set up and Exeggcute 4HKOes with Egg Bomb. Sadly, you need 3 Swords Dance to OHKO Gyarados and Agility to outspeed Alakazam. With healing and setting up on the grass-type, it should be a sweep but it's way too specific. Otherwise, you can set up on Exeggutor 2 Swords Dance, OHKO it with Aerial Ace and then OHKO Rhydon coming next with Steel Wing.
Getting Tentacool was easy with the Repel Trick, it took me 5 Super Repel to find a level 37 one. I got lucky that it had Clear Body (which will be incredibly helpful for Bruno).
Sabrina (40) : Tentacruel outspeeds everything, even Alakazam. Surf OHKOes Kadabra and 2HKOes Mr.Mime through Calm Mind (it never attacks). You live a Psychic from Alakazam and it gets 2HKOed as well. Venomoth is 2HKOed as well by Surf. Sadly, Psychic from Alakazam and Psybeam from Venomoth 2HKOes but still beating the 3 Psychic is more than enough. Assuming Alakazam goes for Future Sight, it's a win as Venomoth does almost nothing with Psybeam. Pretty good matchup considering the type disadvantage and Tentacruel is definitely better than other water-types in C- here.
Blaine (42) : Tentacruel outspeeds everything and Surf OHKOes all but Arcanine and Take Down doesn't even do half. Clean win.
Giovanni (45) : 5 Surf and it's done.
Lorelei (51) : Kill Dewgong with Giga Drain x2, Ice Beam and another Giga Drain. Cloyster is 2HKOed by Giga Drain (or Giga Drain + Surf).
Bruno (51) : OHKO Onixes with Surf. Set up 3 Barrier on Hitmonchan and 3HKO it with Surf+Giga Drain + Surf. Use Surf+Ice Beam+Surf on Lee, easily taking hits. Machamp is easily defeated by 2 Surf+Giga Drain + Surf. Tentacruel should be able to win here as long as it doesn't get crit by a move, I tried this several time and Tenta was most of the time not even in red bar. Solid win and way better matchup compared to water-typesoutside of Slowbro.
Agatha (52) : Outspeed and 2HKO Gengar 1 with Surf. Haunter is sent next and is outsped and 2HKOed by Surf (by the way even after Dream Eater, Surf is a 2HKO). Golbat is outsped and 2HKOed by Ice Beam. Arbok is 3HKOed by Surf (use Surf+Icd Beam+Surf to avoid healing range). Gengar 2 is a big threat and it's better to avoid it. Tentacruel is pretty good here as it can defeat both Golbat and Arbok, having the bulk to take their hits, Gengar 1 which never seems to attack and Haunter assuming it misses.
Lance (52) : Outspeed and 2HKO Dragonite with Ice Beam, taking a hit. If Dragonite goes for Outrage, you can take a Dragonair in the process, 2HKOing with Ice Beam and if it uses Safeguard, you beat the 2 Dragonair. Aerodactyl sadly 2HKOes with Wing Attack and Hyper Beam.
Champion (53) : Outspeed and 2HKO Pidgeot and Exeggutor. OHKO Rhydon. Beats Charizard 1v1, barely taking 2 Aerial Ace, while 2HKOing. It depends what you're trying to do but with a Chesto Berry, Tentacruel should beat Rhydon, Exeggutor and Charizard and can defeat Pidgey instead of Charizard if you have something for it.
I trained Kabuto up to level 40 for Sabrina and it was honestly not too difficult. First thing was beating the first Rocket Grunt (the one with Golbat, 3 Zubat and a Raticate) and that got Kabuto to level 10. Next up, I went to the Rock Tunnel to get Rock Slide and accidently fought the Picknicker and that got Kabuto to level 11. I then tried the hiker next to her, outspeeding Geodude and OHKOing it and Onix with Surf and the other Hiker was defeated as easily with Surf. I then got Rock Slide and faced Pokemaniac Herman. At this point, Kabuto was at level 16. Now, Kabuto could defeat Zubat and Golbat from the grunt on 6F. On the 7F, I faced the grunt with Raticate and the zubat line, Zubat were outsped and OHKOed by Rock Slide, Golbat required 2 Rock Slide and Raticate 3. I then faced the Grunt with Weezing, who was defeated with 3 Surf, one Rock Slide for Golbat and 2 Surf for Koffing. Kabuto reached level 21 and I would face the Grunt with Golbat, Drowzee and Hypno, defeating the two first with Rock Slide easily while I switched to my own Hypno for the opposite one. Now, at level 23, Surf was enough to OHKO Cubone and Mud Shot was enough for Magneton so I defeated them easily. Scientist Travis was easily defeated (the one with Grimer and Magneti) with 2 Surf and a Mud Shot. From there, Kabuto was able to OHKO or 2HKO most things while outspeeding, the only thing I didn't want to fight was Machop and Machoke, thatwas Tentacool role. Anyway, after cleaning all of this, with Kabuto being able to outspeed Voltorb by level 34, it eventually got to level 36 once the Silph Co. was done. By then, I could go to Route 15, defeating easily Bird Keeper and got my whole team to level 40.
Really, grinding Kabuto (or Aerodactyl and somewhat Omanyte for that matter) isn't too hard, you just need to do switch grinding and once at level 15, it can defeat things by itself and takes hits well by virtue of its typing. To be fair, I find it easier to train the fossils compared to something like Paras or Rhyhorn.
Sabrina (40) : Kabutops outspeeds everything but Alakazam and OHKOes everything with Rock Slide. Psychic puts in a low yellow so assuming Kabutops hits, it should result in a win. Even if Kabutops miss, thanks to the bad AI, it still seems possible to win.
Blaine (42) : Kabutops outspeeds everything. Rain Dance Surf OHKOes everything. Alternatively, you can use 2 Surf and ROck Slide+Surf and Rapidash ad easily win. Another great matchup.
Giovanni (45) : OHKO Rhyhorn with Surf. Set up Rain Dance on Dugtrio and OHKO everything with Surf. Third sweep in a row.
Lorelei (51) : 2HKO Dewgong, Cloyster and Lapras with Rock Slide. Outspeed and OHKO Jynx with it. Avoid Slowbro. Kabutops should be able to beat 4 mons here assuming it hits and if Dewgong doesn't use Surf (it barely does it and mostly goes for Hail or Safeguard) as it 2HKOes assuming it and Lapras use it. Regardless, it's a good matchup as Kabutops can at worst beat Dewgong, Cloyster and Jynx and can most of the time beat Lapras as well (and Rock Slide flinch helps a lot).
Bruno (52) : Nop, just beat Onix.
Agatha (52) : Not really good. It's hard to hit Rock Slide against Gengar 1 so avoid it. Golbat is OHKOed by Rock Slide but outspeeds so you have to be wary of Confuse Ray. Haunter is outsped and is a range for the OHKO with Rock Slide. Avoid Arbok. It's possible to beat Gengar 2, using Rock Slide+Surf+Rock Slide as it can barely damage you (it 5HKOes).
Lance (52) : Rock Slide 2HKOes Gyarados, tho it's probably better to avoid it due to Intimidate and getting weaken for Dragonite. Dragonite is outsped, 2HKOed by Rock Slide and you can take an Outrage. Alternatively, you can take a Dragon Rage from Gyarados and 2 Ancient Power from Aerodactyl, while 2HKOing with Surf.
Champion (52) : Pidgeot is 2HKOed by Rock Slide but can go for Feather Dance, hence it's better to use Surf, that 3HKOes. OHKO Rhydon with Surf. OHKO Charizard with Rock Slide. It's better to avoid the rest as Exeggutor is too much of a threat, Gyarados is a range for the 2HKO and 2HKOes with Hydro Pump and Alakazam nearly OHKOes with Psychic.
Bulbasaur
This is a clear A-rank. I'll start off by saying it's not actually that hard to train thanks to the normal move it will have. Tackle is mostly alright until you get Secret Power and from there, you can 2/3HKO most things. I have to agree it looks impossible to train without Secret Power and Strength but it's better to use Pokemon at their full potential honestly. Another great advantage, Ivysaur has at this point was easil sweeping through Rock Tunnel which happens to be one of the worst place in the whole Kanto. With that said, Bulbasaur performed really well in major fights, winning with ease Brock, Misty, Surge, Erika, Giovanni, Lorelei and Bruno while still being helpful against the rest. This is the selling point of Bulbasaur imo and why it's the best starter, it has the ability to always contribute in a battle, no matter the typing. Koga is reliant on Sleep Powder hitting but you can easily beat it and in the worst case, you should take down 3 mons. Sabrina is AI reliant but taking down both Kadabra and Mr.Mime is easy and Alakazam may very well use Future Sight. Blaine is kinda bad but in the worst case, you take down the baby mons and you have geat odds to beat Rapidash as well. Agatha has her Gengar easily defeated, without needing the sleep. Venusaur beats Gyarados and the 2 Dragonair against Lance. Champion is alright as Venusaur beats Rhydon, Exeggutor and Gyarados. Really, Bulbasaur was solid throughout the run and it always contributed in a positive way. I also felt Sleep Powder wasn't that necessary, you still beat Brock, Misty and Surge without it and you only need to use it once against Erika and Giovanni (Lorelei too if you go for SunnyBeam). It's just as good as the last time and between outright winning or contributing a lot in seemingly bad battles (like Sabrina or Agatha for instance), it definitely has a place in A-rank.
Rattata
I'm not 100% sure but I'm leaning toward C-tier on this. It's not good and is way better on paper than in actual game. However, it's one of the very first available Pokemon and is great at route cleaning. It defeated Misty, Surge, Erika (with a Cherri Berry) and Sabrina which was great. Outside of these matchup, Raticate was mostly average to bad but still contributed to some degrees. It can claim up to 3 kills against Koga, beat the Ponyta line against Blaine and Dugtrio+Nidoqueen against Giovanni. The Elite 4 was quite frankly bad but Raticate at least had a decent Agatha fight and can ko 2 things against Lance and Lorelei most of the time due to poor AI. Not much else to say really, a Pokemon that is great for the early to mid game, available immediatly and easy to train. All of that can push it to the C-tier as it's definitely better than most things in D-tier outside of Scyther and the fossils.
Hypno
Yeah, this can stay in C-tier as it's really not good enough comapred to other things in B-tier. Training Drowzee was terrible as it's weak, frail and slow (to be fair I struggled way more with it than Bulbasaur) and even then Hypno was nothing impressive. It loses badly to Surge, Blaine, Lance and Champion and even the good matchup aren't reliable outside of Erika and Giovanni. Against Koga, you're reliant on the AI, because Sludge, Toxic and evasion can ruin you. You really need the Shadow Ball TM for Sabrina (which you'll only use for her and rival's Alakazam anyway), otherwise it's a loss. Lorelei needs healing because even at +6 you can't OHKO Lapras. Against Bruno, you"re reliant on Hypnosis and being able to set up 3 CM as oherwise Hypno won't be able to sweep. Hypno can only claim at most 4 kills against Agatha and that's assuming you get lucky. Lance is bad outside of Dragonair and it's the same for Champion outside of Alakazam. Really, Hypno looks better in theory than in practise because while a CM Psychic always looks good on paper, it doesn't have the power nor the speed to make use of it (not even putting Lapras to red at +6 is terrible) and can't use Recover. All in all, between having only perfect matchup against Erika and Giovanni while not being consistent enough for the good matchup (Sabrina needs Shadow Ball, Koga is AI reliant, Lorelei requires healing, Bruno requires luck, just like Agatha) while doing badly against the rest and being hard to train, C-tier seems perfect for it. It's closer performance wise to something like Vileplume than to Exeggutor honestly.
Scyther
Yeah this is definitely not D-tier and deserves at least C-tier. It's really annoying to get for sure (I guess I could have gotten it after Erika as she isn't the most important gym battle) but it makes up for it by having really solid performances. It sweeps without any problem Erika, Koga, Sabrina and Agatha (I tried several times and it resulted all the time in a win). Even in other importants battles, it had an important role, while Blaine was defavorable, it could at least beat Growlithe, Ponyta and do 2/3 to Rapidash, beat Machamp 1v1 against Bruno (and possibly Hitmonlee if switched out) and against Lance, it can beat both Dragonair with a Cheri Berry. In other gym and Elite 4 battles, it was odd in the fact it can set up in the middle of the fight but it can still result in a win (and honestly koing Rhyhorn against Giovanni isn't a hard task). Another advantage Scyther has is that it doens't need any contested TM. Aerial Ace is barely used outside of Primeape and Butterfree/Venomoth/Farfetch'd (something you wouldn't use with Scyther on your team anyway) and it's the same for Steel Wing. That's why I think Scyther deserves C-tier, yes it's tricky to get but it's just so much better than things in D-tier (with the exception of Aerodactyl but it's hard to train) and even feels closer to B-tier performance wise (it's not easy to see it in B-tier tho because it's soooo annoying to get). Having it in the same tier as Pinsir would make sense because you need either game corner or safari zone but it sweeps effortlessly several important gym leaders.
Tentacool
A clear B-tier that is unlike Rattata and Hypno better in practise than in theory. I'll mostly insist on what it has over water-types because we all know water-types beat Blaine, Giovanni, do well against Lance and rival's Rhydon. First of, the Poison-type is actually a good thing as Tentacruel has the potential of defeating Bruno by itself, unlike other Water-types outside of Slowbro. The Ground weakness isn't a problem as it beats Giovanni as easily as other water-types and actually fares better than something like Seaking or Kingler thanks to its speed. Being so fast is something that makes Tentacruel a beast, outspeeding (and 2HKOing) Sabrina's Alakazam felt really great and in the worst case, Tentacruel could take down Kadabra, Mr.Mime and Alakazam against Sabrina. The speed comes in handy and Tentacruel has a way better Agatha performance compared to water-types in C. It outspeeds and 2HKOes Gengar, Golbat and Haunter while the poison-type comes in handy against Arbok that gets beaten as well. Speed also helped a lot against Lance and Champion because you outspeed and 2HKO Dragonite and Pidgeot and the lack of grass weakness helped against Exeggutor. Additionnal perks Tentacruel had were a high level encounter thanks to the Repel Trick and being able to defeat Lorelei's Dewgong. Really, between being immediatly available at a good level easily, actual good matchup against Sabrina, a slightly better Lorelei, defeating Bruno by itself and doing better against Agatha and Champion, Tentacruel is clearly above Seaking, Dewgong and Seadra.
Kabuto
Just like Omanyte, this deserves D-tier at least. It's obviously annoying that it only comes at level 5 but honestly as I explained training it wasn't that hard and didn't take all that much time and I got a level 36 Kabuto after the Silph Co. Afterwards, it performed extremly well just like Omanyte, defeating Sabrina, Blaine and Giovanni with ease. Lorelei was nice as according to the AI, it can claim up to 4 kills. Agatha was alright as it can defeat Golbat, Haunter and Gengar 2 (and I guess Gengar 1 if you're willing to try). Against Lance, it beats either Gyarados+Aerodactyl or Dragonite 1v1, which was good enough. Champion was great as it beats 3 mons (Pidgeot+Rhydon+Charizard) easily. Really, outside of Bruno, Kabutops was great, either outright winning or contributing a lot and there is no doubt it should be in the same tier as Omanyte (it's a bit easier to train and fares better against Lorelei at the cost of a slightly worse Agatha and reliance on Rock Slide). Really, I advice everyone trying it because it's actually not that hard to train and has an overwhelming performance.
Now, with this run done, I want to say a few things (going to use hide tag because it's long)
- I think most tiers are fine and except for a few things there shouldn't be many changes (mostly the Pokemon mentionned in the previous post which I agree with and Aerodactyl/Kabuto/Scyther).
- I'll still test everything with a * or ** to provide logs but I don't really expect to change my mind honestly and with the great work Ryota did, most things are well-placed currently. The only exception are going to be Snorlax (there is a consensus on it and it's way too consistent to be below A-tier), Staryu and Hitmonlee. Staryu is just too good to be B-tier imo and we all mostly know how it performs and raking wise it's more of a matter of tiering philosophy rather than perfomance that makes its tier uncertain. Adding to that if Gengar is moving up, there is barely any reason, it shouldn't be in the same tier as Starmie because while Starmie performs a bit better (it can defeat Blaine's Arcanine and does better vs Lance), Gengar requires one less game corner TMs and is way quicker to train. Speaking of which, I'm not too sold on testing Haunter and Gengar because they are most likely to move anyway and Ryota posted the logs about Gengar, which is incredibly easy to train sothere wouldn't be much to say about this. Hitmonlee is currently tested and as it's likely to move, I don't think anther test would be needed tbh. I will do a run with Zapdos because it was mentionned as a potential candidate for A-tier if Aero is moving up but I'm not too sure about it. Articuno on the other hand is probably unecessary to test because it loses to Blaine and Lorelei and that adding to coming late means it can't reach A-tier but I'm still probably going to add it. Aerodactyl from my experience had a better performance than Articuno I feel.
- I don't think much should change if anything at all, the rakings are great and RYota highlighted really well the uncertain mon. Psychic are totally fine in S-, Vaporeon is the best Water-type when you get it, Gyarados struggles against Erika, Surge, Agatha and Lance and is too hard to train to be A-tier and Articuno/Zapdos I'll try. Grass-types in C are fine because they are matchup reliant and hard to train, Electric-types are available in mid-game and have an average performance, Farfetch'd recently moved, there are the generic Water-types and Meowth has Pickup+Pay Day while I tested Pinsir. Things in D are fine as they are either only passable or found late but still have a niche to avoid the E-tier.
- I'll try to provide explanations about the catching, training and how the Pokemon fares at certain moments. It's not really necessary on each and every mon but it helps to better understand the ranking of some things. For instance, it's not needed for something like Spearow or Doduo which are easy to train but it helps a lot to have a better understanding of Pokemon like Flareon, Jolteon, Slowpoke or Dratini. It matters a lot because some mons have great gym perfomances but are harmed by being hard to train (mostly thinking of Slowpoke and Zubat here). Explaining how much the Pokemon to have the right TM and at what moment you can afford it (like having Thunderbolt) is something else I'll plan to do. Also, explaining if I had to grind in the wild, use VS Seeker or Rare Candy is something I'll try to mention. For the specific case of Cubone, I'll try to find a Thick Club, detailing how much time it took to get it and compare its performance with and without it.
- I'll use 3 team of 6 Pokemon and then 4 Pokemon from now on. The reason is that for the fossils and Dragonite, I find it better to showcase how they perform in a full team because they take away a lot of experience from the team and it would give "false informations" in a 4-mon team experience wise. Other Pokemon should be fine as only Exeggcute, Growlithe, Lapras and Shellder are in the slow growth group. I'll start with starters and early encounters like Pikachu, Spearow and Clefairy to make things quicker afterwards. I'll add the legendary birds to these runs because they barely require any training anyway.
- If I'm fast enough, I'll post multiple runs in the same post to avoid double posting as things can go fast using mons from Koga onward. Next runs are planned to be Squirtle/Pikachu/Clefairy/Nidoran-M/Cubone/Omanyte, Charmander/Spearow/Zubat/Nidoran-F/Diglett/Dratini and Doduo/Growlithe/Machamp/Voltorb/Poliwag/Aerodactyl. Not sure what I'll test afterwards but it should be quick anyway.(3 runs of 4 mons shouldn't take too much time).
Regarding Hypno, I was tired and mixed up Psychic and Recover lol. Recover helps a lot the Abra line to sweep, something Hypno can't do against Lorelei for instance and unlike Mr.Mime it doesn't learn Thunderbolt.
I really don't think Mankey should be S-tier. While it's very solid and arguably the best fighting-type, it's not as dominant as Psychic-types in S-rank. It's one of the very first mon available, it's great to have a strong Brock matchup outside of Bulbasaur and Squirtle and it's really easy to train. In spite of this, unlike something like Alakazam or Mr.mime, it struggles in several matchup. To me, a S-rank is something dominant, able to win in almost every major battle, which isn't the case for Primeape. Alakazam/Kadabra struggles against Misty (which is the case for Mankey too anyway) but makes up for it by outright winning in every other important battle, safe for Kadabra and Lance. For Primeape, it's not the case, Misty is a loss, Koga is hard to get though due to Smokescreen and repeated hits, Blaine is average and Lance and Champion are outright bad. Performance wise, it feels way closer to something like Nidoking than to Jynx, a Pokemon that walks through the game with ease. It's still really good and I'm glad it was moved to A-tier but S-tier overrates it imo.
I have locked Snorlax to A-tier, as it seems to be uncontested at this point. I will use Tentacool at some point myself and will most likely come to some decision for it.
Rattata and friends will move/get locked to their tiers once Turdterra finishes his run
I have started a run with Drowzee / Machamp / Doduo / Scyther / Kabuto, will make a new post. Once I am done with this run (hopefully soon), I may move some of those or lock them to their tiers.
As a side note, what are people's thoughts on Growlithe? I have little memory of it, but from what I am seeing, you probably want to TM it Flamethrower at some point for it to remain good, unless you wanna keep it unevolved till level 49. No particular tier in mind right now, as I am doing a very loose theorymonning right now
edit: to make it clear, most of the things will be locked to their tiers or moved. Some things (like Aero) will be left for discussion.
Looking forward to seeing your run, I don't think Drowzee, Machamp nor Doduo should move but we'll see and hopefully Scyther and Kabuto will get a tier up.
Growlithe I'll retry it soon but from my memories, it was among the worst in B-tier but still potent. It requires the Flamethrower TM as you said (just by Koga it's needed honestly) and even then, Fire isn't the best typing for Kanto, even though its stats and access to Dig for Blaine help a lot. Reading my (short) notes, it beats Erika, Koga most of the time if it has Flamethrower, Sabrina according to her AI, beat Growlithe, Ponyta, Rapidash and do half to Arcanine before falling against Blaine and it should beat Rhyhorn, Dugtrio and a Nido vs Giovanni. Against Lorelei, it can hope to defeat Cloyster, Jynx and Lapras thanks to Sunny Day and Fire Blast. Hitmonchan and Hitmonlee got defeated against Bruno (I think I actually didn't test if Fire Blast OHKOed Onix). Agatha was pretty good thanks to the bulk and Arcanine could 2HKO most things (only requiring Fire Blast+Flamethrower against Gengar 2). Lance was bad outside of taking down the 2 Dragonair. Champion was mostly good as it beats Pidgot, Alakazam with 2 Extreme Speed and the Grass-type. Looking at this, Growlithe doesn't look out of place in B-tier (and is way better than Vulpix) despite the need of Flamethrower and Slow growth rate. I'll still retry it with more detailed log but iirc its ranking was fare.
Definitely the best way to do it is just to teach Flamethrower and evolve immediately. Growlithe sucks ass but Arcanine is solid throughout the remainder of the game after aquired.
New day, new logs. Glad to see that I can still test quickly, though it helps that my laptop is running VBA faster than before.
Logs are available to anyone that wants them, but I won't include them to keep the post short (and cause I am lazy).
Drowzee
So I tried this out and am a bit mixed here, albeit not significantly. Drowzee pre-League is more-or-less fine; it doesn't have the punch that Kadabra has upon level 16, but it's not a total deadweight either. As a Hypno, it managed to sweep every Gym Leader onwards; Lt. Surge due to being Hypno, Erika with Confusion (so Psychic TM can be spared for something else if needed), Koga, Sabrina with Meditate + Headbutt, Blaine with Calm Mind,and Giovanni. The problems came from the E4 performance; Lorelei required setting up with BOTH Calm Mind and Meditate to be swept, Bruno required healing because lol Rock Tomb and powerful neutral moves, Agatha wears it down easily cause everything outspeeds it, and Lance and beyond are lol. I could see it go either C or B, so I would like another opinion on Drowzee, but I am leaning towards maintaining status quo due to the unimpressive E4 performance.
Machamp
I am keeping this in B-tier for now. It's very powerful and can sweep some fights with Bulk Up, but gosh, this thing is certainly slow as hell. Other Fighting-types generally outspeed even the fastest foes like Sabrina's Alakazam and generally have an easier time setting up due to outspeeding. One advantage it has over others, though, is the Medium Slow growth rate, so it's fairly easy to train. On the other hand, though, the Machop phase isn't particularly good, unless you backtrack to skipped trainers to grind Machop so you don't have to have it die to whatever it encounters at Rock Tunnel.
In terms of performance, it's similar to most Fighting-types: Bulk Up as much as needed and try to sweep or kill as many things as possible. Machamp sweeps Erika (thanks Guts), potentially Sabrina, Giovanni, Bruno, and Lance (if you are crazy enough to spam Bulk Up there) while dealing with most of Blaine's Pokemon as well (and potentially Koga if you get lucky). All in all, B-tier sounds fine by me and if no one w ants to contest this, I may lock it to B-tier in the future.
Doduo
Seems fine in B-tier. Doduo's biggest selling point is that it's relatively good without using TMs whatsoever (bar maybe... Steel Wing and Hyper Beam, though this one can be bought). I used mine with Tri Attack and never felt the need for Return, so you can save that TM for something else. Assuming you evolve it ASAP, it sweeps Erika and Sabrina easily while not being too shabby elsewhere. Hyper Beam is a great move for killing bulkier stuff, it even found some use against Koga. Its E4 performance was 50/50; it was great for Agatha, but sucked against the rest, though it can get a few kills on Bruno, provided Machamp doesn't Rock Tomb it. All in all, B-tier seems fine, it has a couple of great matchups and is low-cost in general
Scyther
Moving Scyther to C-tier in a few days if no one contests this. I decided to try this out to see if I would find it disappointing as I did years ago. Turns out that I undersold it and it performed much better than what I remembered (so I assume I used one with terrible IVs). In terms of performance, it swept Erika handily, Koga with SD + Aerial Ace, Sabrina (no SD!), 3/4 of Blaine's Team (and dealing heavy damage to Arcanine with Hyper Beam), and Agatha. It can also get a few kills on Bruno and Giovanni. Lorelei is a good matchup only if you manage to set up on Slowbro and Lance's Dragonite managed to tank a +4 Aerial Ace (Hyper Beam would leave me open to Aerodactyl) and it was the second Pokemon he brought out, so...
In terms of Safari Zone vs Game Corner, I personally say go for the Safari Zone one (in spite of how hard it is to catch), because 5500 Coins isn't something you want to throw on Scyther. Regardless, both availabilities are terrible, so if you really don't need the coins for anything else, you could buy it instead. For whatever reason, Pinsir is a lot cheaper in LG (2500 coins, which is just 50k Pokedollars), same for Porygon (9999 vs 6500). Dratini draws the short stick in LG, though (2800 vs 4600)
Kabuto
Pushing this to D-tier if there are no objections. For the purposes of this run, I decided to grind it up to the 40s (on par with my team) by using the two Hikers and Camper on the route north of Lavender Town with the Vs. Seeker, so that Trainer exp. could go to the other teammates instead. At the beginning, it wasn't too bad, as Kabuto leveled up quickly due to how low-leveled it was and killed their stuff, but once it reached the 30s, it required all three of them to level up just once. It eventually evolved into Kabutops and its performance was acceptable; it swept Sabrina, Blaine, and Giovanni. At the E4, it was useful for Lorelei, but wasn't too impressive elsewhere. Due to this, I am pushing this to D-tier, but nothing higher, as the grind + the mostly bad matchups after Lorelei hold it back from being any tier higher.
(For the record, I imagine the grinding scenario would apply to Aerodactyl; you will want to grind it against the Birdkeepers west of Fuchsia, but you will experience some slowness once it gets into the 30s).
===
Don't know what I am gonna run with next, as I want to see how the priorties will turn out. For now, I will be waiting for new nominations to come in and then see what needs more vetting from me. I am most likely going to target Jolteon, Tangela, and Venonat. Tangela, in particular, I have said that the logs for it alone make me think it's better off in D-tier, so I will try it out myself at some point.
From the post above, here are the announcements that will take place in a few days if they are not contested, unless stated otherwise:
- Kabuto and Scyther will raise by one tier
- Machamp and Doduo will be locked to B-tier
- Drowzee won't be locked to C-tier yet, as I want another opinion on it, preferably with a test run.
if you needs logs for something, let me know and you can have 'em.
Really interesting post that highlights really well the Pokemon you tested !
I don't think Machamp and Doduo will be contested because they are pretty straightforward (and Machamp was tested in the previous thread anyway) and it's cool to see progress in the list. I'm also glad to see the support for Kabuto in D and Scyther in C.
By the way, I think Kabuto and Omanyte should be fine in D unlike Aerodactyl. The reason for this is that Aero performs well in every remaining matchup. It's just as good for Sabrina, Blaine and Giovanni (outside of Rhyhorn) but it has a strongt E4 performance. Lorelei is good thanks to Rock Slide and bad AI, it's possible to take down up to 4 mons. Bruno is decent outside of Onix (not the hardest thing to take down), Agatha is great thanks to its speed and Lance is fairly good. Even Champion was excellent as Aerodactyl is able to beat Pidgeot, Alakazam and Arcanine (and Venusaur). I'll still retry it and provide detailed logs but it's far ahead of the two other fossils.
As for Drowzee, would you mind showing logs for Blaine and Surge ? I had the same experience with Erika, Koga, Sabrina (Meditate+Headbutt should be as effective as Shadow Ball) and Giovanni. However, it may be my IVs but my Hypno wasn't able to get past Surge and Blaine. Against Lt. Surge, Voltorb always used Sonic Boom and Raichu was able to hit enough time to ko as it as only 4HKOed. I guess it could be possible with more Special Attack. I struggle to see how it would beat Blaine tho. It requires at least 4 CM to OHKO Arcanine and Growlithe does like 40% with Fire Blast+Take Down. Arcanine will ko by then with how hard Take Down hits. I'm interested in seeing the logs for these 2 battles. Regardless of that, I think C-tier is fine because Drowzee is awful to train and the Elite 4 performance was below-average.
Jolteon and Venonat are fine in C imo. Jolteon is just a regular Electric-type available earlier than Magneton and Electabuzz that outspeeds Lance's Aerodactyl in exchange of desesperately needing the Thunderbolt TM. It functions similarly to other Electric-types and tbh electric-types should all be C-tier with the exception of Zapdos in B and maybe Voltorb in D. Venomoth is definitely among the best in C-tier and performs really well wth Sleep Powder/Psychic/Giga Drain/Aerial Ace|Silver Wind. Sleep is really strong and Venomoth has decent power and great coverage. I'll still test them but they shouldn't move
Tangela is weird in that it either straight up wins or outright loses most of the time. The fact that it comes late could prevent it from being C-tier possibly. I'll still retry it but on this one, it's more of a matter of tiering philosophy.
Here are the logs. They aren't too detailed as I keep them short for readability when I read them in the future, but your IVs may have had some role in your worse experience against those two fights (assuming levels are the same as mine)
(IVs on Hypno were 20 across the board, ditto for anything I use, bar in-game trades)
Lt. Surge(26): Headbutt + Thief + Headbutt KO Raichu without triggering healing, with Shock Wave being roughly a 6HKO on Hypno. Confusion also gets past the rest with little difficulty (2HKO on Voltorb). Only evasion and random Static are your issues, provided you haven't been damaged too much by Sonic Boom
Blaine(47): CM twice then spam Psychic, easy sweep. Growlithe tends to spam Fire Blast, which won't deal much damage.
(I think, against Blaine, I outsped at least half of his team, which may explain why I took little damage)
for Jolteon, the biggest issue is probably that it's super-dependent on the Thunderbolt TM to be viable. If you don't teach it Thunderbolt, then yeah, hf. I wanted to try it with Shock Wave and see if it's that bad, but it probably will be, as the lack of power will be noticeable.
Aero (38 -> 39): Rock Slide OHKOs Growlithe even under Intimidate. Arcanine is a 3HKO and can easily 3HKO you with Fire Blast. Fire Blast will either Burn you or you will miss a Slide which means the sweep is scrapped. Getting past Arcanine causes Slide to be a 2HKO on Ponyta which responds with another FB potential Burn. Blaine will use his Potion here. Rapidash is a 2HKO as well and another FB Burn chance. 5 tests yielded 1 sweep. If you miss any Rock Slides, you fail to sweep Blaine. This is not a good MU at all if it is this unreliable.
Ninetales (41): Surprisingly does well here. Flash Fire makes FB a non issue. Sunny Day turns Flamethrower into a OHKO on Growlithe (Flash Fire active), 2HKO on Ponyta and Rapidash, while an estimated 3HKO on Arcanine. You take too much damage from the Bounce Squad to really take on Arcanine anyways. Decent MU for a Mon I thought would flounder.
Raticate (41): Sadly it only takes down Growlithe. Fire Blast from it takes off half your health and Return is a 2HKO. Bad MU.
Hitmonlee (40 -> 41): Sadly also fails to sweep due to Intimidate. Bulk Up to 2 (pray you are not burned) and Brick Break everything to death. Arcanine comes out, drops you to a +1 and HJK makes it a 3HKO instead of 2HKO. Arcanine beats you anyway with one hit at this point.
Gengar (41): Fails to Sweep. Fire Blast hits for too much and Growlithe is a 2HKO with Psychic. The 1st hard fail from Gengar.
Aero (42): Hard L. As expected. Rhyhorn just stops you cold with Rock Blast. Steel Wing is like a 3-4HKO. Nidoqueen is about a 3-4HKO with Wing Attack but this isn't considered good as each hit is a 10% chance you get Poisoned. Body Slam can also get rid of your main advantange. Only thing this dumb coprolite can do is take down Dugtrio.
Hitmonlee (43): You have to Bulk Up to 3 which causes an issue. This issue being Scary Face. At -6, you are outsped by Rhyhorns. You have to bank on one of them missing. Moving on. +3 results in BB being an OHKO on Rhyhorns (Not that it was neutrally) and Dugtrio (Was neutrally as well). Return is ONLY an OHKO on the Nidos at a +3.
Ninetales (43): Sunny Day + Fire Blast OHKOs Rhyhorns and Dugtrio. Unfortunately, you are hit by Scary Face and thus are unable to outspeed the Nidos losing to them by their EQ.
Gengar (43 -> 44): Easy Sweep. Psychic is an OHKO on Rhyhorns. Dugtrio is weirdly a 2HKO. Nidoqueen is a 2HKO. Nidoking is an OHKO.
Raticate (42): Blizzard, yes Blizzard, is an OHKO on Rhyhorns and Dugtrio. You hard lose to Queen though.
Aero (48): Supposedly a good MU. It isn't. In 4 tests, I had one sweep ONLY because I got a crit Slide on Lapras. Cloyster can easily PP Stall you out of your Slides. Dewgong is 2HKO by Slide, Cloyster is a 2-3HKO. Lapras is a hard 3HKO. Jynx an OHKO, and Slowbro will require Wing Attack or DE due to being out of Slides most likely (and even then it can easily beat you with Surf or Ice Beam).
Hitmonlee (48): Another MU you where it fails to sweep, doesn't even really dent Lorelei. You have to Bulk Up to a +2 to deal with Dewgong in a timely manner. However, all tests have Slowbro come out and stop you cold. Since it takes time to buff up to a +2, all other mons can have their way with you and just 3HKO. Cloyster is a 2HKO, Lapras 2HKO, Jynx an OHKO under +2.
Raticate (48): This is where Raticate falls off hard for good. Usually I don't drop mons, but here at the E4 it does nothing. Dewgong is a 4HKO with Return and Cloyster just laughs at you.
Gengar (48): Honestly, quite surprised. It gains another L. The issue is that Slowbro and Lapras are just too bulky even with TBolt. It's a 3HKO for both and Lorelei has Full Restores. Another issue is that you take damage in turn and you are not the definition of bulky. Dewgong is an easy 2HKO as is Cloyster. Jynx is easily destroyed by Shadow Ball (OHKO).
Ninetales (48): Why no Solarbeam? Sunny Day makes Surf become a 4HKO but most of the time you are gonna be just resetting weather in your favor. Fire Blast also has to hit and you will not have enough for the entire MU. Dewgong is a 2HKO with Sunny Fire Blast as is Cloyster. After that, Slowbro just walls you. Jynx is an OHKO with just Flamethrower.
All Team 51
Aero: This coprolite. It can't beat Onix obviously. Hitmonchan can kill it with 2 Sky Uppercuts or a Counter. Machamp just has the bulk to easily beat it with Cross Chop or Rock Tomb. Hitmonlee is a freebie. Trash MU.
Gengar: Loses to Bruno as well. Psychic is an OHKO on the Onix and a 2HKO on the rest barring Machamp which is a 3HKO. The issue is Rock Tomb causing all of Bruno to outspeed you.
Ninetales: Loses to Onix. If by some miracle you beat it, Chan comes out and throttles you. Sunny Blast is an OHKO on the first Onix, 2HKO on the second, Hitmonchan, Lee, and 3HKO on Champ (Pray you don't proc Guts).
Hitmonlee: Takes an L here too. You have to Bulk Up as Onix can take a BB or HJK. You have to go to +2 which results in speed loss from Tomb and makes you unable to sweep without healing. 8 tests and not a single sweep.
Raticate: N/A. Dropped.
All Team 52
Aero: Why do I even bother? It 2HKOs Gengar 1 with Slide and then you lose to Arbok. ARBOK. Turns out the Aerodactyl's natural predator is a friggin cobra. So much for the air advantage you big dumb fossil. I digress. Arbok is a hard wall due to Intimidate. It deals with the rest of Agatha relatively easy. However, Rock Slide is a 2HKO on Golbat. GOLBAT. Just put this mon in the garbage can please.
Hitmonlee: I Bulk Up to look intimidating then realized I have no move that can hit them. I visibly deflate as Gengar proceeds to DT in my face and Poison me to death. 10/10 would do again. In all honesty, Bad MU unless you kept Foresight.
Ninetales: Takes out 3/5 Mons before losing either Poison or just overall damage. You have to keep setting Sunny Day to deal lasting damage with Blast.
Raticate: Spoopy Ghost says no to Rat.
Gengar: The most successful of the bunch taking down 4/5. Psychic takes out everyone barring the level 58 Gengar who OHKOs with Shadow Ball
All Team 53
Aero: Just....sigh. Trash. Pathetic. Never make this thing see the light of day again. Keep it dead. You have to get the Omni Boost and even then you still lose. If I have to depend on an Omni Boost and Healing, you automatically have a bad MU. Gyarados is a 3HKO with Slide (No Omni). This turns into a 2HKO (Counting the AP). Lance's Aero can easily dispatch you as it is 2HKO by Rock Slide. It can Scary Face you to remove your main advantage or get an AP Buff.
Gengar: L here too. TBolt is an OHKO on Gyara and a 2HKO on Aero. Dragonite finishes you off.
Lee, Tales, and Cate: Do nothing. Don't bother.
Champion Rival was not tested as placements were confirmed at this point.
So let's get these placed now.
E TIer. This this has no case for D. Let alone C. It lost to every MU in the game. Yes it dented things, that doesn't help its case as the claims that were being made were that is was able to sweep some MUs. Didn't see that. Other things that contribute to E Tier. The effect it has on the party. I SHOULD NOT be below level 50 entering the League. Ever. This isn't Johto. Upon reaching the League, only Gengar was 47. This is the damage done by having Aero in your team and absorbing so much XP. The Vs. Seeker would be labeled as Grinding at this point to level match with Lorelei or even be level 50. This is a major strike in my book. More factors are the backtrack to obtaining this turd of a Pokemon, skipping trainers so only it can level up and then full on absorbing Silph Co, which is a big no no for me. The amount of Backtracks are 2. Old Amber and then Rock Tunnel for Rock Slide. The last factor is that an Omni Boost is required in the last bit of tests. Absolutely not. If any Pokemon needs to depend on a 10% chance while being punished isn't C tier. I can maybe see D Tier but my experiences tell me otherwise and I hated every moment of testing it.
ATier. This has no case for S due to falling off hard at the League. (Not that there was any case). B is underselling this monster. Every MU barring the League is a clean sweep (barring Blaine) and it can at least dent a good portion of the League too. I believe the major issue was the usage of TMs however, I saw no tests in the old thread or even this one. It was just shoved in B and I guess people were content in leaving it there. The max amount of TMs needed are 2. Psychic and TBolt. That is all that is needed for it to function, Much better than Starmie in terms of TM Usage,
C Tier. Chan and Lee should be put in the same tier. Lee accomplished only denting teams and not actually sweeping. You depend on Bulk Up to actually deal lasting damage. At most times, Lee is simply unable to do anything to make it B tier in my eyes.
C Tier. After Sabrina, it just falls off hard and never really bounces back. I could see D but that would be kinda underselling it as it was able to dent Blaine significantly and can put in work at the League. Overall not much to say about it as it's a bit one dimensional in setting up Sunny Day and just blowing things away with Flamethrower/Fire Blast.
C Tier. It's early game (barring Brock) is incredibly strong. It starts to fall off after Sabrina though. It never recovers from this period sadly but its a great first route mon. It really doesn't need a bunch of investment either as its natural moveset can take care of it until its fall off period. Return should be given to it though once you have access and the BP is not under Strength
I have run through with Aerodactyl myself: it is hot garbage even in practice. I solely tested it and even then it was massively disappointing. Saying this is C in any capacity is absolutely unreasonable and I'm honestly considering E though it can maybe be D. Maybe.
First, an outline. I skipped loads of early trainers to get it off the ground.
Level 5 to 13: You want to take on some wilds west of Cerulean to get Aerodactyl off the ground. Once it's about level 9 it can take on stuff near Nugget Bridge fairly easily and get a few more levels. The Speed doesn't prevent Quick Attack chip damage, unfortunately.
Level 13 to 20: Aerodactyl can actually start OHKOing some of the scrubs near Vermillion now. At least, anything it hits SE or crap like Rattata. More importantly, it can survive a light breeze now.
Level 20 to 26: Fairly decent for Rock Tunnel. Bite 3HKOs rocks and the like, and most things are 2HKOed.
26/27 to 40: I head to Silph take on like a third of the building and rival with solely Aero, then do Gym Trainers.
Now, logs. These get depressing fast. I apologize I'm a little high leveled for Sabrina but according to other testers that matchup is mostly doable for Aerodactyl.
Sabrina (40): Rock Slide outspeeds and OHKOs Kadabra which is nice. Mr. Mime comes out, dies to Rock Slide before moving. Same with Venomoth. Now that Aerodactyl is level 41, ven Alakazam is outsped and OHKOed by Rock Slide (!).
In a repeat attempt, Wing Attack seems to OHKO Kadabra and Venomoth (latter is notable as Turdterra Wing Attack did not). Rock Slide leaves Alakazam in red this time. In a third attempt, I missed a Rock Slide but crit another: Alakazam only seems interested in using Calm Mind. This matchup seems favorable though I am high leveled.
Blaine (41): I’m using Intimidate fodder for Growlithe, who with no debuffs is OHKOed by Rock Slide. I used Rock Slide to 3HKO Arcanine, and Fire Blast seems to barely 3HKO you. Ponyta seems to be implied to be OHKOed by Rock Slide at -1 - I crit it, but then Rapidash lived in red from -1 Rock Slide (it does nothing back).
Next attempt without fodder I OHKO Growlithe even through Intimidate, which is consistent with Turdterra, and still 3HKO Arcanine, getting a lucky flinch. At -2 you leave Ponyta alive. Rapidash comes out and I’m now at just under half HP at level 42. Rapidash is cleanly 2HKOed. Overall, pretty good but the amount of luck means an outright win seems dubious.
Interlude: Viridian Gym is my first true negative for Aero. It can't fight 70% of the mook stuff effectively.
Giovanni (44): No on either Rhyhorn. Wing Attack leaves Dugrio alive but Fly OHKOs it, and you also outspeed. Wing Attack / Fly 3HKOs Nidoqueen but you’re gonna get worn down (I Full Restored when I got paralyzed). Poison Point is preferable to paralysis, but you’re still going to get him in a heal loop. Nidoking goes much more smoothly - Wing Attack 3HKOs and it is not problematic at all with Thrash, though I did heal to full first. In my second attempt I got through Dugtrio, Queen, and King - Fly 2HKOs King. Honestly, you’re best off just beating Dugtrio and King here.
Lorelei (48): Rock Slide + Wing Attack kills Dewgong: usually it derps turn 1 letting you win. Cloyster BARELY avoids the Rock Slide 2HKO, but you’re better off using something else as it will PP stall you. Jynx is cleanly OHKOed. Lapras seems generally a no-go: Surf can one shot you with only a little chip, you fail to 2HKO it due to Sitrus Berry, and Confuse Ray is awful. I missed Rock Slide and Slowbro OHKOs (on a repeat, you do nothing).
Bruno (48): No on both Onix. Hitmonchan beats you: Sky Uppercut laughs at Fly, Rock Tomb gets you to red, BOOM MACH PUNCH. Upon a retest, just Wing Attack twice - you win. Fly OHKOs Hitmonlee, thankfully. Machamp is very shaky: you can make it derp with Scary Face but if it uses Bulk Up your dreams of 2HKOing with Fly are dead, and if Cross Chop hits you die from full at +1 I think. Once again, meh.
Agatha (48): Fails to 2HKO the first Gengar on rolls with Rock Slide consistently. Golbat dies to Rock Slide + Wing Attack. Amusingly, even ARBOK can kill Aerodactyl with Iron Tail + Sludge Bomb. With Intimidate you 4HKO Arbok with Rock Slide and are generally dying, especially if Agatha heals. Second Gengar you also 3HKO, even through Berry. Haunter is 2HKOed by Rock Slide.
Lance (48): Without Intimdate Gyarados is cleanly 2HKOed by Rock Slide. With Intimidate you barely come out on top after a heal loop. Lance’s Aerodactyl finishes you off after one Gyarados Dragon Rage with Ancient Power. Dragonite is 3HKOed by +0 Rock Slide but 2HKOs with Outrage so it loses. Even DRAGONAIR is only 3HKOed by your moves it seems and paralysis is a pain from one (Outrage seems to be a 3HKO). Conclusion: you’re likely only beating one thing here.
Green (48): Rock Slide 2HKOs Pidgeot is what I would be saying if FeatherDance wasn’t awful. Assuming you switch as Gyarados comes in (meaning no Intimidate) you barely miss the 2HKO with Rock Slide (with Intimidate it is a clean 3HKO, and if Gyarados lands Hydro Pump you die). Rhydon is a no. Without Intimidate you barely 2HKO Arcanine while it 3HKOs with Flamethrower: you can even BARELY miss the 3HKO with Intimidate implying the 2HKO without it is possible to miss. Fly seems to 2HKO Venusaur while it uses Growth: Fly lets you avoid SolarBeam so this seems pretty safe. Alakazam is outsped and is 2HKOed by Rock Slide…but it uses Reflect and Recover and 2HKOs with Psychic, so you can’t seem to afford to miss at all here. Meh.
So what are my overall thoughts?
Aerodactyl is not good overall, not even remotely. It peaks at Sabrina. Blaine is possible to sweep but way more trouble than its worth thanks to Intimidate. Giovani is meh, Lorelei is pretty bad (they tank you easily) Bruno is bad aside from Hitmonlee / Hitmonchan and from there Aerodactyl falls off the map completely, only picking off very minor threats. When your high points of the League are picking off the likes of Dewgong, Golbat, Haunter, one mon from Lance....
It's not very good for the Champion battle either. Pidgeot walls you out thanks to Featherdance, the others eat your pathetic hits and hit hard back - again, you're probably only beating one, MAYBE two threats.
I never got many of the sweeps most other people did with Aerodactyl aside from Sabrina and Blaine (who are honestly not hard at all). I never got anything truly good. While far from the worst mon I've ever used, the insane level 5 + Slow growth investment coupled with the abysmal major battle performance across the entire Pokemon League means this is a clear D, and honestly E is not out of the question.
I do not take E nominations lightly for any list, even if I am a mere tester. It is condemning a mon as completely unusable trash. And yet, I consider Aerodactyl as potentially E worthy. The return on investment is so minuscule and fails at every turn to make up for the unreasonable catch-up period. Rock Slide and Fly's 90% accuracy do not help at all, the last thing Aerodactyl needs is to miss when it is 3HKOed by resisted moves. Longevity? What's that? This thing has none. You get something that is frail as sin, takes two eternities to get moving, misses so often I'd call it Whiffodactyl, gets screwed by Posion Point / Intimidate / Ground types / anything with even a SEMBLANCE of bulk at all.
In short, banish it back to the Old Amber. Throw it in D, throw it in E, honestly either will do. E is honestly looking more likely for me, and I can't believe I'm saying it can probably share a tier with Ditto. Saying this is C is an insult to average / slightly above average mons. I had high hopes but they were crushed the moment I faced Lorelei, where Aerodactyl went from mediocre to straight-up irredeemable.
Level 5 to 13: You want to take on some wilds west of Cerulean to get Aerodactyl off the ground. Once it's about level 9 it can take on stuff near Nugget Bridge fairly easily and get a few more levels. The Speed doesn't prevent Quick Attack chip damage, unfortunately.
Level 13 to 20: Aerodactyl can actually start OHKOing some of the scrubs near Vermillion now. At least, anything it hits SE or crap like Rattata. More importantly, it can survive a light breeze now.
Level 20 to 26: Fairly decent for Rock Tunnel. Bite 3HKOs rocks and the like, and most things are 2HKOed.
26/27 to 40: I head to Silph take on like a third of the building and rival with solely Aero, then do Gym Trainers.
This is my biggest problem with Aerodactyl. It's that you actually have to save trainers along the way in order to use it. If not saving trainers it takes a preposterous level of grinding for a Slow EXP mon, from level 5 to the late 20s or whatever in order to "get it off the ground".
The Silph Co. stuff is reasonable since you could conceivably beat Koga, Surf to Cinnabar to get Aero, then start hacking away at Silph Co. in prep for Sabrina. But I don't understand why a casual player would ever conserve trainers way back near Nugget Bridge or in Rock Tunnel just for the sake of using Aerodactyl. It's completely unintuitive.
If you obtained Aero at level 30 like it was in RBY it makes sense since it's more or less in line with the levels you should be at that point of the game. But level 5 for a Slow EXP mon by around the seventh Gym is lunacy. Aero seems borderline unusable in any normal run to me. It's as if you have to custom tailor a run just to use it.
I would advocate for E tier personally based on my assessment of Drumstick's evidence.
To get Aero going, you need a frankly absurd amount of investment. Just the grind from Lv. 5 to at least Lv. 40 with a Slow mon renders it completely unviable.
But then you need to save AT LEAST the Rock Slide tutor for it. That's one of the most demanded tutor moves in the game.
Count the detours too. To get it, you need to get the Old Amber. That's Pewter post-Cut. Then go to Cinnabar. That's literally the opposite of Pewter in the vertical axis. Then you need to go to Rock Tunnel because Slide is a Tutor. That's on the opposite side of both in the horizontal axis.
You literally need to travel across the entire region. And THEN you can grind it.
The grinding itself is horrendously slow and you need to save several trainers for it or straight up wild/VS grind. That hurts the team in the short and long term.
But for some unfathomable reason, you did it. You raised this extinct behemoth from the grave and turned it into a merciless fighting machine of unparalleled power.
Rise, Aerodactyl! Rise from the depths of time and smite those who stand in your way!
If the investment didn't convince you it's E-tier, the results will.
As the first nominee I have no idea how you can come to these conclusions short of a predisposition against the pokemon. For me, in my testing, Aerodactyl performed superbly when given the appropriate investment. I have every trust that you all performed your testing up to standard but this degree of vitriol is deeply disappointing.
As the first nominee I have no idea how you can come to these conclusions short of a predisposition against the pokemon. For me, in my testing, Aerodactyl performed superbly when given the appropriate investment. I have every trust that you all performed your testing up to standard but this degree of vitriol is deeply disappointing.
We see it how we see it man. Being first doesn’t mean anything either. I had already called it not being C ages ago, did my test, and holy hell is it not C. Other people have said it isn’t either. I’m not gonna get into a war here with you as no one wants that. We hated it. Plain and simple.
E TIer. This this has no case for D. Let alone C. It lost to every MU in the game. Yes it dented things, that doesn't help its case as the claims that were being made were that is was able to sweep some MUs. Didn't see that. Other things that contribute to E Tier. The effect it has on the party. I SHOULD NOT be below level 50 entering the League. Ever. This isn't Johto. Upon reaching the League, only Gengar was 47. This is the damage done by having Aero in your team and absorbing so much XP. The Vs. Seeker would be labeled as Grinding at this point to level match with Lorelei or even be level 50. This is a major strike in my book. More factors are the backtrack to obtaining this turd of a Pokemon, skipping trainers so only it can level up and then full on absorbing Silph Co, which is a big no no for me. The amount of Backtracks are 2. Old Amber and then Rock Tunnel for Rock Slide. The last factor is that an Omni Boost is required in the last bit of tests. Absolutely not. If any Pokemon needs to depend on a 10% chance while being punished isn't C tier. I can maybe see D Tier but my experiences tell me otherwise and I hated every moment of testing it.
A Tier. This has no case for S due to falling off hard at the League. (Not that there was any case). B is underselling this monster. Every MU barring the League is a clean sweep (barring Blaine) and it can at least dent a good portion of the League too. I believe the major issue was the usage of TMs however, I saw no tests in the old thread or even this one. It was just shoved in B and I guess people were content in leaving it there. The max amount of TMs needed are 2. Psychic and TBolt. That is all that is needed for it to function, Much better than Starmie in terms of TM Usage,
C Tier. Chan and Lee should be put in the same tier. Lee accomplished only denting teams and not actually sweeping. You depend on Bulk Up to actually deal lasting damage. At most times, Lee is simply unable to do anything to make it B tier in my eyes.
C Tier. After Sabrina, it just falls off hard and never really bounces back. I could see D but that would be kinda underselling it as it was able to dent Blaine significantly and can put in work at the League. Overall not much to say about it as it's a bit one dimensional in setting up Sunny Day and just blowing things away with Flamethrower/Fire Blast.
C Tier. It's early game (barring Brock) is incredibly strong. It starts to fall off after Sabrina though. It never recovers from this period sadly but its a great first route mon. It really doesn't need a bunch of investment either as its natural moveset can take care of it until its fall off period. Return should be given to it though once you have access and the BP is not under Strength