Pokemon Platinum - (Uber Discussion Thread)

[gengod]

The fact that so much of these Pokemon get STAB Outrage paves a way for so much new mixed sets.

Mixalga no longer needs Brick Break to get through Blissey and can now take a more physical route with mixed attacking in addition to the special mixed attacker set it already has.

Palkia can now 2hko Blissey with Outrage which means it no longer has to fear Groudon's sunlight ruining it's Aqua Tail.

Latios getting Outrage means it can run on a Life Orb set capable of 2HKOing just about every wall in Ubers.

Platinum wasn't too kind to Blissey or stall in general as far as Ubers is concerned.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

The big problem with BU / Outrage / Magnet Rise Dialga in dealing with Groudon is, of course, what speed do you run? Any speed you do run takes away from your special durability, plus Dialga ties with Groudon on speed, so unless you max out your speed there is always the possibility of Groudon always outrunning you, and it can come in and Bulk Up alongside you until the Magnet Rise runs out. Try and set up Magnet Rise again and Groudon is now strong enough to finish you off with one or two Fire Punches, and shrugs off Outrages thanks to the defense boosts.

Dialga could avoid this scenario with Roar of course (unless it's a last Pokemon situation, and the same applies vice versa), but then you have just one attack and no recovery or Will-o-wisp protection. This brings up the major problem of moveslot syndrome. One more issue is that Outrage, despite being powerful, remains a risky move as it locks you in and leaves you open to revenge kills from anything with a strong special Fighting/Ground move especially. It just seems to me that this set in particular is being a bit overhyped currently.

 

[gengod]

One more issue is that Outrage, despite being powerful, remains a risky move as it locks you in and leaves you open to revenge kills from anything with a strong special Fighting/Ground move especially. It just seems to me that this set in particular is being a bit overhyped currently.

The issue with Groudon is troubling as its pretty dependent on who is EVd to be faster. As for Outrage, sure it locks in Dialga but chances are its probaly going to have used Magnet Rise before it attacks eliminating the threat of Ground-type moves. But, even if it didn't, how much Pokemon in Ubers do you generally see using Ground or Fighting type moves?

Groudon is the main user of Ground-type moves but after that no Pokemon in Ubers commonly uses them and Mewtwo and Darkrai are the only real common users of Fighting-type moves. Bulk Up Dialga only really had a few counters before Platinum and with the ability to remove its most common weakness for 5 turns, I definitely think it got quite a bit more potent.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

The issue with Groudon is troubling as its pretty dependent on who is EVd to be faster. As for Outrage, sure it locks in Dialga but chances are its probaly going to have used Magnet Rise before it attacks eliminating the threat of Ground-type moves. But, even if it didn't, how much Pokemon in Ubers do you generally see using Ground or Fighting type moves?

Groudon is the main user of Ground-type moves but after that no Pokemon in Ubers commonly uses them and Mewtwo and Darkrai are the only real common users of Fighting-type moves. Bulk Up Dialga only really had a few counters before Platinum and with the ability to remove its most common weakness for 5 turns, I definitely think it got quite a bit more potent.

All I'm saying is that new moves such as Magnet Rise have given Dialga just as many problems with its own moveslots than it has given problems to its previous counters. With Magnet Rise you are sacrificing what I think was Bulk Up Dialga's biggest asset which was the ability to continuously tank hits and maintain a constant threat with Rest and Sleep Talk. You can still run Rest for recovery, but then you're inviting the likes of Mewtwo, Darkrai, Palkia, Latios etc to come in and perhaps set up safely before killing you, and from my experience in Ubers you cannot afford to give anything an inch. Plus you lose the ability to use Outrage while asleep without becoming locked in or confused.

As for lacking counters, you are forgetting that other Pokemon got some useful additions too. Scizor gained Superpower in Platinum, allowing it to come in and beat it with Swords Dance, particularly if it is faster or Dialga tries to Magnet Rise on the switch-in. Darkrai gained Nasty Plot, making Rest without Sleep talk even riskier as now it can OHKO much more easily after one turn of setup. Not much has changed for Magnezone as a trapper except that it will always run HP Fight instead of Ground. Not like there was much between them anyway, they both had their ups and downs in equal measure.

I admit that Dialga has definitely improved with the new additions, just like anything else that has gained more viable options, but there is no doubt that Magnet Rise and Outrage are in many ways limiting to it, and force it to adopt a different style of play to the traditional Bulk Up set in order to reap the benefits. Hope that made sense.

 

[futuresuperstar]

Keep in mind that a Choice Scarf'd Me First from Mew now becomes even stronger, considering so many things will be locked into Outrage that are weak to Outrage, themselves.

 

[HD]

How would the Scizor trapper set for Uber change? With the addition of Bullet Punch it's a must for a lot of teams weak to Deo-A or the like. I could see maybe a set of Bullet Punch, Pursuit, Support, Support.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

Keep in mind that a Choice Scarf'd Me First from Mew now becomes even stronger, considering so many things will be locked into Outrage that are weak to Outrage, themselves.

But doesn't Mewtwo do the whole Choice Scarf Me First thing much better with greater speed and far superior offenses? With Mewtwo you can always outrun stuff like max speed ScarfChomp and Scarf Palkia without even resorting to a +Speed nature, and the difference in bulk is pretty negligible. The only thing Mewtwo lacks on that set is Hypnosis, and a slightly more powerful boom attack, but then again it would probably want that slot for Aura Sphere to revenge-kill Darkrai and Dialga, or another offensive move.

 

[Chou Toshio]

@Lemmi-- if you don't like Dialga's new moves, don't use them. >.> More moves always makes a pokemon stronger, not weaker. If anything it causes more problems for the opponent having to guess how to respond.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

@Lemmi-- if you don't like Dialga's new moves, don't use them. >.> More moves always makes a pokemon stronger, not weaker. If anything it causes more problems for the opponent having to guess how to respond.

I never said I didn't like his new moves, nor did I say they weakened it in any way. In fact I said the exact opposite right above. What I said was that people were overhyping it as almost impossible to counter with the new moves, and I gave my reasoning as to why that isn't necessarily the case.

 

[gengod]

How would the Scizor trapper set for Uber change? With the addition of Bullet Punch it's a must for a lot of teams weak to Deo-A or the like. I could see maybe a set of Bullet Punch, Pursuit, Support, Support.

Roost, U-turn and Pursuit where all necessities on that set. The last move was filler. Bullet Punch, Knock Off or possibly even SuperPower would be the best moves for that last slot.

 

[zzzzzzzzzzz]

Giratina new forme still has 150 base hp, I think that it means that Giratina should be wall, so new Giratina will be inferior another Giratina. We have enough dragon sweepers(or I just guess that?)

and why do you want to ignore Latios amazing special attack and give it outrage -.- isnt Rayquaza better for that?

 

[Jibaku]

Giratina new forme still has 150 base hp, I think that it means that Giratina should be wall, so new Giratina will be inferior another Giratina. We have enough dragon sweepers(or I just guess that?)

That is a pretty blunt assumption. Why should one make Origintina a wall when its clearly worse than the Another Forme? It does sweeping just fine; people just need to get over the base 90 speed and stuff.

 

[umbarsc]

I've only seen a couple of mentions to Outrage Palkia, but it makes its phyisical sets much more viable. Sub/Bulk Up/Outrage/Aqua Tail @ Salac Berry looks like an actually powerful new set that takes out some of its main counters, Blissey and Lati@s.

Also, Swords Dance Darkrai is looking to be quite powerful, not just novelty anymore. 90 Base Attack isn't great, but STAB Sucker Punch is simply deadly in ubers. Taunt/Swords Dance/Sucker Punch/Brick Break @ Life Orb could cause some major damage in ubers, with its only relatively safe counters being Groudon or Dialga. With the ability to hit insanely hard on both ends of the spectrum, as well as an 85% accurate sleeping move, Darkrai may just become the biggest threat in ubers.

 

[MM_Zero]

Earth Power looks cool for CM Lugia, so its not walled by annoying steels. Still, the main wall for Lugia is Blissey, and earth power doesnt really do much to it.

Nasty Plot is a godsend for Darkrai, as if it already wasn't good enough. A Nasty Plot+Life Orb Dark Pulse will certainly cause havoc in the uber metagame.

Outrage is nice for Giratina, but I still have my doubts on how well the origin forme will perform in the uber metagame. I do see how spite will be a great thing to have for Giratina, to get rid of Water Spouts, and Sacred Fires which put a big dent during late-game.

Last Resort sounds funny for Arceus, and it will certainly get some play, as due to Arceus bulk, and how 2 moves are used 90% of the time (swords dance and extremespeed.)

For wifi, the elemental punches are great for Deoxys-A, as using the punches on the gamestop version before-hand were considered illegal.

There were quite a few beneficial changes to some ubers, but these changes are hurting the other ones, which didn't get anything (or at least not something that helpful), like Groudon and Mewtwo.

 

[Jibaku]

Mewtwo isn't exactly hurt by this. First of all, he got Trick, which is something, and second of all, Taunt/WoW/[Ice Beam/Reflect]/Recover just got better as he is one of the few that can reliably stop BU/Outrage/Magnet Rise/Rest Dialga and Bulk Up Palkia

Nasty Plot is freaking nasty on Darkrai (got swept by one). Swords Dance Sucker Punch is kind of nasty, although you pretty much need Taunt or Roar Giratina walks all over it. Same goes with Lugia. Also be aware of Sucker Punch's 8 PP. This means getting rid of Dark Void, though.

Earth Power Lugia is very meh. Just Toxic him or send in TTar and he'll still die.

 

[gengod]

Recently I've been looking at how good Trick actually is in Ubers and created with this Darkrai set.
---
Darkrai @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Bad Dreams
EVs: 6 HP/252 Spd/252 SAtk
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Dark Void
- Dark Pulse
- Nasty Plot
- Trick

It seems awkward at first but I've found this set really amazing at taking down Darkrai's common "counters" with Trick while still leaving it the option of Dark Voiding another Pokemon then proceeding to set up Nasty Plot to sweep. Seems like it should be something to watch out for in the future ;P

 

[umbarsc]

I've been using this Kyogre to tackle new threats such as Nasty Plot Darkrai and Giratina-O (oh, and "Earth Power Lugia")

Kyogre @ Leftovers
Trait: Drizzle
EVs: 252 HP / 36 Spe / 224 SpD
Calm Nature (+SpD, -Atk)
- Surf
- Roar
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

This will always live through Darkrai's Life Orb Nasty Plotted Dark Pulse and OHKO with Surf assuming SR + Life Orb damage. Thunder doesn't seem like such a great option on Darkrai now that it has Nasty Plot, but just in case I usually scout Darkrai first to see if it carries Thunder. Roar was because I needed a way to beat Calm Mind/Dragon Pulse/Aura Sphere Giratina-O (assuming it lacks Thunder). It also beats Calm Mind Lugia if that is of any concern.


Also, I've been testing Swords Dance/Taunt/Sucker Punch/Brick Break Darkrai, very potent, very unexpected. It's less novelty than I initially thought, though I haven't been needing it often.

 

[Jibaku]

@umbarsc

You know what? That is the exact same Kyogre set I'm using right now (with the exception f the EV spread. I use it for the same reason that you do. Also, it's notable that RoarOgre also beatsRest/Talk Ogre, and with some speed you can beat CM/Roar Another Forme Giratina. A threat indeed.

 

[AbsolDeath]

The only real improvements I see in Platinum for Ubers are Nasty Plot Darkrai, Outrage on Dialga, Origin form. Also, you could run a somewhat gimmicky SD Mew Set as it gains Sucker Punch and the elemental punches.
Mew @ Leftovers/Lum Berry/Life Orb
Jolly/Synchronize
252 Atk/252 Spd/6 Hp
~SD
~Sucker Punch
~Thunder Punch/Ice Punch
~Aqua Tail/Fire Punch/Zen Headbutt

 

[gengod]

The only real improvements I see in Platinum for Ubers are Nasty Plot Darkrai, Outrage on Dialga, Origin form. Also, you could run a somewhat gimmicky SD Mew Set as it gains Sucker Punch and the elemental punches.
Mew @ Leftovers/Lum Berry/Life Orb
Jolly/Synchronize
252 Atk/252 Spd/6 Hp
~SD
~Sucker Punch
~Thunder Punch/Ice Punch
~Aqua Tail/Fire Punch/Zen Headbutt

Sucker Punch only helps it out against Lati@s which aren't even that common at the moment.

The set that Futuresuperstar posted with Stealth Rock over Me First seems to be quite the annoying lead though.

 

[Muntz]

What happens to Giratina-o if you knock his Platinum Orb off?

 

[Slobroking]

You can't

 

[Muntz]

:justin2:, thanks

 

[zzzzzzzzzzz]

I have played 30-40 games yesterday and today and no Dialga used Magnet Rise.

 

[Jibaku]

I played a couple of games today and here's what I noticed

- Rayquazas are on every team
- Specs Kyogre is like uber common now. I wonder if people want to metagame against me...
- Darkrai is the best Pokemon not counting Arceus atm
- I find Giratina-O is capable of killing one or two guys before dying. It's hard to get full sweeps with him, but still, two for the price of one isn't bad
- CM/Roar Kyogre is a beast. Period
- I really like Mewtwo in this gen. SDRay counter ftw! Oh and I stalled out a ScarfPalkia with it once. It's awesome
- People are running abnormally high Special Defense on Groudon...
- I see no one using Giratina-O :(
- Scarfdialgas are starting to become common
- I hate Mew now. It Transformed into my +4 SA/SD Kyogre and then Roared it away :( (was paralyzed when he transformed)
- Surprisingly, almost no one uses Lati@s...
- I am the victim of repeated hax. Seph, I need your good luck charm!!!

Unrelated:
Outrage is bugged on Shoddy. In game it uses one PP per full Outrage. In Shoddy it wastes one PP everytime you use it.

So, if that's not clear
In game:
1PP: 2-3 turns of Outrage
Shoddy:
2-3 PP: 2-3 turns of Outrage

I was forced to stall when a BU Dragon Claw Dialga came out because of this