Pokemon RBY In-Game Tiers - Mark III

atsync

Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
is a Pokemon Researcheris a Contributor to Smogon
#76
Just wanted to say that I'm very close to making a final decision about all of these Pokemon. I still need to think about Farfetch'd more although I think I have a rough idea of how I'm going to deal with it. If anyone has anything else to add about Farfetch'd, or any of the other Pokemon, feel free to keep discussing stuff.
 
#77
I think Gengar (and Golem) should actually get more credit for their defensive typings. I don't know about you guys, but I hate it when a random Explosion/Selfdestruct takes down one of my pokes, and not only did I miss out on the experience from beating a high-level trainer poke (in Weezing or Magneton), but now I'm down a member. Being able to throw Gengar / Golem out infront of Koga/Scientists is definitely nice.

Raichu is just one Pokémon. Even if having a Ground expedites the fight, it's not necessary.

Chuo, you act like Raticate is bad. I think it's a prime candidate for high tier, at least one of the better mid tiers. So methinks the fact that Hitmonlee hits as hard as Raticate on the Normal side (probably more initially due to level advantage) is a point in Hitmonlee's favor, not against him.
Would it kill to spell my name right?

Also, Raticate is tiered Mid-tier, and we had no discussion on it. Hitmonlee is significantly worse than Raticate overall. How could you miss the point I'm making?

(Also Himon does not hit as hard as Raticate-- it hits significantly weaker than Raticate)

Hitmonlee is better than Hitmonchan...that's pretty much it. I'd prefer to bring my Raticate instead of replacing it for Hitmonlee, who has to wait a bit for its good STAB (By good, I mean waiting 20 or so levels to get a Base 85 Power move with a chance of missing; Gen 1's HJK had 85 Base Power, not the 130 we're used to)

I honestly don't see anything interesting about Hitmonlee. I put Muk in Low, and Muk has more options than this thing. Only having Normal and Fighting type moves doesn't help it at all. It's completely walled by any Ghost type, and walled by Lance, Sabrina, dies to Blaine thanks to pisspoor Special, dies to Lorelei because again, pisspoor Special, dies to Bruno's Machamp (the only member of his team of any note), Completely walled by Agatha...

So to review, 99 percent of the time, Hitmonlee is wasted space. For the final nail, you get him after fighting two Level 37's. You'll probably be around that range yourself, meaning you have to grind Level 30 Hitmonlee six levels to even use him.
To be fair, the fighting Gym is easy to beat with the Psychic TM and/or Fly HM using any number of Pokemon under level 30-- Hitmonlee is easy to get quite early.

However, that's where the good stuff ends-- everything else you said is spot on.




Here's the real crux of Hitmonlee's problem: What do you need it for??? WHY do you need this thing????

There is no opponent in the latter half of the game for which Hitmonlee is a great asset. This isn't a late game water that plows through Cinabar/Giovani/Lance. This isn't a late game Electric- or Psychic-type. It has less utility than a Ground-type. It doesn't even have a type advantage against common Rocket pokes (in fact, a type disadvantage). True Pokemon like Venusaur and Vileplume also don't have any late game advantages either, but at least they beat Misty (very significant) for you. Considering the opponents there are to beat, Hitmonlee has almost zero type advantage-- no one rewards you for using it. If anything type-wise, the entire later half of the game deters you from using it.


Raticate's problem is that it starts losing steam later in the game-- it's just too much easier to plow through the later half of the game with Special attackers that have type advantage. This is what makes Clefable / Snorlax so good, because they can effectively use Special moves on top of their Normal-type STAB. This is also why Golem and Sandslash, despite having type advantages against a lot of late-game opponents (Koga, Blaine, Giovanni, Agatha, RB Lance), are not high-tier-- they're not as efficient as Water/Ice/Psychic/Electric users at taking down the same opponents.

But at the very least, Ratata comes incredibly early, gets Hyper Fang quick, and is useful earlier on.

Hitmonlee is an inferior Raticate that appears right when Raticate starts becoming less and less efficient anyway. This is definitely not High material.
 
#79
I'm not at a computer at the moment, so I can't really say too much, but I completely disagree. Hitmonlee is a great asset to any team. Sure, you could say something else is better at some things, but you can't knock Hitmonlees assets. He does very well mid-late game, only really struggling with Agatha, sabrina and early Pokemon tower. He's got great power and he has some great match-us late game.

And Golbat is rare and has aweful defence, and even if he survives, what does he hit back with? Leech Life? Wing attack? Golbat is not a threat.
 
#80
Garud-- the bigger point is not that zubat resists Fighting, but that Fighting brings no advantages. You say "Fighting + Normal is flawless except against ghosts", but really that's irrelevant because you wouldn't take on Rock-types with Hitmonlee anyway (the only type besides Ghost that resists Normal). There are zero enemies you need Fighting to beat. Normal is far superior and relevant, and as a Normal-Attacker, Normal Types with STAB all hit harder. There's nothing more to say there.
 
#81
I'm not at a computer at the moment, so I can't really say too much, but I completely disagree. Hitmonlee is a great asset to any team. Sure, you could say something else is better at some things, but you can't knock Hitmonlees assets. He does very well mid-late game, only really struggling with Agatha, sabrina and early Pokemon tower. He's got great power and he has some great match-us late game.

And Golbat is rare and has aweful defence, and even if he survives, what does he hit back with? Leech Life? Wing attack? Golbat is not a threat.
A Golbat Wing Attack, even though it's 35 base power, will still significantly hurt Hitmonlee's awful defenses. Did you read my post at all whatsoever? He does nothing to Agatha other than sit there looking dumb, and completely dies to Sabrina, Blaine, Lorelei (outsped and OHKO'd) What great matchups are we talking about, because I don't see any. Nothing that makes him even close to being High-worthy.
 
#82
Again, I still don't get the logic behind 'what does this pokemon offers compared to other pokemon' because no pokemon offers anything useful when comparing to soloing the game with squirtle.

The tier list is already based on an innefficient playstyle, so saying a pokemon is bad because others do it better doesn't really make sense because efficiency isn't the number one priority.
 
#83
^Inversely though, if you don't compare any pokes to any other pokes, than you end up throwing your hands and saying "you can solo the game with anything-- so why bother making a tier list?"

The whole idea of a tier list is based on balancing the notions of comparative efficiency with individual efficiency.
 
#84
We're theorizing that we want to use more than one Pokemon, thus, having a full party of Pokemon, what would we want to use. There's nothing wrong with soloing the game with a Pidgey, but that kinda defeats the purpose of this tierlist. It's like you're saying "let's fuck everything over with six Wobbuffet in Gen 4 Ubers". That's not the spirit of a tierlist.

EDIT: Ninja'd.
 
#85
(Also Himon does not hit as hard as Raticate-- it hits significantly weaker than Raticate)
Let's suppose your team is level 25 by the time you reach Celadon. And say your Raticate has max IV 16,384 EV attack (the EVs are enough to give it half its points from stat exp.—this is, in my experience, pretty charitable to Raticate) and is fighting a Pokémon with 30 defense, using Hyper Fang / Body Slam. On the other hand, let's suppose Hitmonlee has max IV zero EV attack.

Raticate: 55-65 damage
Hitmonlee (Mega Punch): 59-70 damage
(Hitmonlee (neutral Double Kick): 66-78 damage)

Suppose you raise them both with the same amount of exp. until Hitmonlee reaches level 40 (Raticate will be level 37). Let's also suppose that they've both earned 16,384 additional EVs.

Raticate: 115-135 damage
Hitmonlee (Mega Punch): 111-130 damage
(Hitmonlee (neutral Jump Kick): 137-161 damage)

you wouldn't take on Rock-types with Hitmonlee anyway
Yes I would.

There are zero enemies you need Fighting to beat.
We aren't talking about necessity, we're talking about efficiency.
 
#86
BTW, I merged RB Charmander and Yellow Charmander. Let me know what you think.

-Charmander - High Tier
-Availability: In RB, its a starter Pokemon. In Yellow, You get it at around the second gym at level 10. It comes under-levelled, but there is a patch of grass nearby containing Bellsprout, Oddish and Venonat, all of which Charmander can beat and all of which give plenty of experience. It does slow your playthrough a bit but it does not take Charmander too long to catch up and it’s worth it in the long run.
-Stats: Charizard’s stats are reasonably balanced. 100 Speed is great for in-game runs, and 84 Attack and 85 Special are acceptable. 78/78/85 bulk gives Charizard reasonable defensive capabilities, allowing it to takes hits now and then.
-Movepool: Its level up movepool is not that great early on. Charmeleon needs Dig. Without it, Charmeleon is quite mediocre until it gets Slash at level 33. This is an issue since Dig is a valuable TM, but Charizard is a great user of Dig so don’t think of it as a waste. Charizard only needs Dig and Slash to dominate, and Fly and Flamethrower are mere bonuses. Note that Charizard only learns Fly in Yellow.
-Power: It should be said that Charmander goes through a bit of a lag phase as Charmeleon, but with Dig (and later Slash) it can pull its weight. Once it evolves it becomes excellent. Charizard is a great in-game Pokémon, powering through opponents with ease.
-Type: It learns Fly (Yellow Only) and Flamethrower, which have good coverage (although Charizard will be using Slash and Dig for the most part). Defensively, it has a niche as a Fire type that is immune to Ground. Water, Rock, Ice and Electric weaknesses aren’t helpful but in most battles they are irrelevant because Charizard will kill opponents before they move.
-Match-ups:
Brock - Brock's Pokemon resist Ember, but their low Special means they will still be hurt by Ember. Just don't attack Onix during his Bide period and you should be fine. It is only possible for Charmander to fight Brock in Red & Blue.
Misty - Bad match-up, but Charmeleon with Dig can still act as a supporting attacker for teams lacking a specific answer to her team (e.g. finishing off Starmie after it's weakened and paralyzed).
Lt. Surge – If you have Dig and are at an acceptable level, you will do well here. Without Dig or Mega Punch/Body Slam TM, Charmeleon will have a tough fight due lack of a strong move and being hit by Raichu's powerful Thunderbolt.
Erika – The sad thing is that Ember is not that powerful despite the type advantage, if you are high leveled enough to have Slash at this point you are better off using that. Overall, the grass resistance should be enough for you to contribute.
Koga – In RB his Pokemon are weak against Ground meaning Dig will take them out, even without Dig Charizard stands a good chance due to Koga's Pokemon having poor move sets. In Yellow Fly is super-effective against his whole team and Psychic doesn’t exactly take Charizard down instantly.
Sabrina – Slash deals plenty of damage on her Pokémon’s lower defense stat. As long as you are at a reasonable level you should be fine.
Blaine – You win with access to Dig. Even without Dig, you still win due to Slash and a resistance to Fire.
Giovanni – Dig is Super Effective against his whole team except Persian and Dugtrio, both of which Charizard can overwhelm with Slash. Without Dig Giovanni will be harder to beat as his Pokemon can take a hit, especially considering in Yellow his Nido's have Thunder and his Rhydon has Rock Slide.
Lorelei – Charizard is actually weak to Ice in RBY (plus Water obviously) so this isn’t a good match-up. Slash should beat Jynx though.
Bruno – Dig for Onix, but they have Rock moves. Fighting resistance is helpful for Hitmonlee and Machamp. In Yellow, Charizard can use STAB Fly to score a Super Effective hit on his Fighting types.
Agatha – Dig is great against everything except Golbat, who isn’t that strong anyway. Without Dig Charizard will have a tough time taking her Pokemon down to their high Special and immunity to Slash. Yellow Charizard can beat her Ghosts with Fly, but watch out for Substitute on her first Gengar.
Lance – Its weaknesses to Ice, Electric and Water hurt it, and Aerodactyl is the only Pokémon in the game to resist all of Charizard’s main moves. This isn’t a great match-up for Charizard.
Blue – You should be fine to take on Sandslash, Rhydon, Pidgeot, Exeggutor, Ninetales, Arcanine, Flareon, and Alakazam is perfectly beatable thanks to Slash. One good thing about picking Charmander as your starter in RB is that your rival will not have Gyarados, who can be threat in earlier rival battles due to its high stats.
-Additional Comments: The main thing that prevents Charmander being Top tier is that it is rather weak before Slash, as it has to rely on Tackle and Ember. Before Slash, it gets a few notable TM's such as Mega Punch, Body Slam, and Dig. But the most efficient one (Dig) is a highly contested TM. Once Charizard has Slash and Dig, he becomes quite a monster and a valuable edition to any team.
 
#87
There's no reason Raticate has to be level 25-- it could easily be higher. :| My teams are usually close to 30 when I get to Celadon, and Raticate is in the same experience group as Hitmonlee. As far as I can tell, when STAB is calculated in, Raticate should be stronger (admittedly, I can't seem to find any online tools for calculating RB stats/damage... >__> Which does make it a bit hard to look up the facts myself...)

Regardless, it's a small point in the overall argument and problems with Hitmonlee.

You haven't addressed the point that Pokemon like Golem and Sandslash are held down to mid for their inability to get through the latter half of the game efficiently-- not in comparison to Water/Ice/Psychic/Electric-types. Golem and Sandslash even have type advantages against many key opponents, but they're just not as efficient as Vaporeon/Jolteon/Mr. Mime/Seel. Raticate really slows down in the later half of the game, and is inefficient for the same reasons-- and hitmonlee is no better than it. The mid-tier Ground-types are also better overall for more useful STABs, better survivability (mix of defenses and speed), and better match-ups type wise.

Why would I use Hitmonlee to beat Rock-types when it fails to OHKO them, takes huge damage in return, and are Pokes that could easily be taken out by just about any special attacker? How is that efficient? Just like its more efficient to use Vaporeon than Golem to beat an Onyx or Rhydon, it's even less efficient to use a Hitmonlee.


I have to be amused at your dedication to "equal experience distribution" because let's face it-- not all Pokemon are as easy to level up. Not all Pokemon snag wins and keep on going as easily, and Hitmonlee is one of those pokes that takes patience to get wins. Hitmonlee DOES get outsped, it DOES fail to OHKO a lot of foes, so it keeps having to take hits on its pathetic defenses. It takes huge damage, and can't beat more than a handful of enemy trainers before needing a visit to Pokemon center. It gets knocked out in battle alarmingly easily, even aginst foes that should be easy to beat. There is no way I could acknowledge this as high material.
 
#88
If you're somehow only Level 25 by the time you get to Celadon City, you're doing it wrong. Very wrong. An average playthrough puts me around Level 25 by the time I exit the S.S Anne for crying out loud. This is considering having a party of Five Pokemon plus the token HM slave.
 

atsync

Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
is a Pokemon Researcheris a Contributor to Smogon
#89
I actually have final verdicts ready for all 6 pokemon. However, people still seem interested in debating stuff so I'll leave you guys to it for now. Maybe I'll change my mind.

However, I really want to move on to different Pokemon ASAP, so I'm giving you guys 1 more day to discuss whatever you need to discuss. Tomorrow, I'm going to give my verdict based on what I've seen here. Hopefully you guys can come to some sort of conclusion, but if you don't I'm going to finalise the positions anyway.

@Hemp Man: That's great. I don't mind you jumping the gun on this before I officially finalised the tiers of all the Pokemon up for discussion at the moment (it's pretty clear that this is the way it's going to end up). I won't add it until I finalise everything though.

I see you mentioned the Gyarados thing for Rival, but you should also specifically add these Rival battles to the list of trainers in the match-up section, as was decided. Add Cerulean Rival, and Silph Co. Rival at least, probably the 2nd Rival battle on Route 22 too. I'll let you decide whether you add the others. I don't think they are as important.

In additional comments you say it has to rely on Tackle. You mean to say Scratch.

You should probably discuss the stats of the unevolved forms in the stats section, particularly Charmeleon and its mediocre offences (64 Attack and 65 Special).
 
#90
There's no reason Raticate has to be level 25-- it could easily be higher. :| My teams are usually close to 30 when I get to Celadon, and Raticate is in the same experience group as Hitmonlee. As far as I can tell, when STAB is calculated in, Raticate should be stronger (admittedly, I can't seem to find any online tools for calculating RB stats/damage... >__> Which does make it a bit hard to look up the facts myself...)

Regardless, it's a small point in the overall argument and problems with Hitmonlee.

You haven't addressed the point that Pokemon like Golem and Sandslash are held down to mid for their inability to get through the latter half of the game efficiently-- not in comparison to Water/Ice/Psychic/Electric-types. Golem and Sandslash even have type advantages against many key opponents, but they're just not as efficient as Vaporeon/Jolteon/Mr. Mime/Seel. Raticate really slows down in the later half of the game, and is inefficient for the same reasons-- and hitmonlee is no better than it. The mid-tier Ground-types are also better overall for more useful STABs, better survivability (mix of defenses and speed), and better match-ups type wise.

Why would I use Hitmonlee to beat Rock-types when it fails to OHKO them, takes huge damage in return, and are Pokes that could easily be taken out by just about any special attacker? How is that efficient? Just like its more efficient to use Vaporeon than Golem to beat an Onyx or Rhydon, it's even less efficient to use a Hitmonlee.


I have to be amused at your dedication to "equal experience distribution" because let's face it-- not all Pokemon are as easy to level up. Not all Pokemon snag wins and keep on going as easily, and Hitmonlee is one of those pokes that takes patience to get wins. Hitmonlee DOES get outsped, it DOES fail to OHKO a lot of foes, so it keeps having to take hits on its pathetic defenses. It takes huge damage, and can't beat more than a handful of enemy trainers before needing a visit to Pokemon center. It gets knocked out in battle alarmingly easily, even aginst foes that should be easy to beat. There is no way I could acknowledge this as high material.
Alright, let's address it. All of it.

Let's start with Hitmonlee's stats. While he has the bulk of a wet paper bag, His attack is the 8th highest in the game, and is only 14 base points off Dragonite's. Remember, you get this right after Surge, so no pokemon aside from Gyarados or Golem will have a comparable attack stat at this point. It's Speed is base 87, which is fairly quick for RBY. At this point you are still facing NFEs, who struggle to keep up. This is especially true over time as you gain stat exp, and will begin to outpace those at a higher base, like Jynx and Ninetails. Sure, you won't get near the likes of Alakazam without overlevelling, but you fight those very rarely.

Lets compare with the Ground types. Although the ground types have a higher special, this only means increased defense from Fire type moves and Electric moves, the latter which is almost non-existent after Surge. This means that Grass, Ice and Water moves, all which are abundant, will KO them regardless. Hitmonlee at least has a chance to survive them. And they are all slower, barring Diglett, so they will all be taking those attacks before they can KO. Being better all-round does not exactly help their cases - we can clearly see that High Speed and a High Attack/Special is all you need to be good in the game, and most of the Ground types have neither. Diglett is a prime example, with pitiful defenses, yet being Top-Tier with a decent attack and a high speed.

Let's compare Raticate. Raticate does more base damage with it's Normal-type attacks than Hitmonlee does with Normal-type attacks, but that is comparing apples to suspension bridges. Hitmonlee's STAB WAY overpowers Raticate's, due to better stats. If you really wanted to compare, compare Raticate's Dig to Hitmonlee's Body Slam, which also comes up worse, since they are both coverage moves and neither gets STAB. In fact, since Normal-types can't hit anything for Super-effective damage with their STABs, they are significantly weaker, giving Hitmonlee more utility.

Also, Hitmonlee at the same level always KO's Golem. Always. And Golem is never seen, rather you see Graveller and Onix instead. I've calculated it, and even at min damage assuming no Stat Exp, Hitmonlee always KO's Golem. In addition, a Wing Attack from Golbat never OHKOs Hitmonlee, assuming same level and no stat exp. That's to put it in perspective, meaning he can survive hits and KO pokemon which are rather defensive, so he is not exactly being KO'd back.

In fact, I have been doing plenty of calculations. Hitmonlee, despite having virtually no bulk whatsoever, is able to survive SE attacks from the likes of Golbat and Pidgeot, meaning he can set up a Meditate and KO the rest of the party the next few turns. Alternatively, he can just 2HKO.

After a meditate, which is often possible to set up, Hitmonlee can KO pretty much anything he outspeeds. There are just a couple of pokemon in the game he really can't KO without being a slightly higher level, like Gyarados or Ninetails. However, that's only if they use their best attacks as many pokemon in this game carry Junk moves.

How can't he get through the late game? He motors through Cycling road despite all the Poison-type pokemon, and the other route has plenty of Water and Normal pokemon that he can cut his teeth on as well. By the time he is down to Koga, he is very well levelled. In addition, he takes out this team with ease as you can set up on his Koffings. While Koga is harder in Yellow, he can at least take out the 3 Venonats guarranteed, and should do around 70% damage with Body Slam to Venomoth (2HKOing it if it uses a Junk move). While he cannot take the ghosts in pokemon tower, he can certainly take on the wild Cubone/Marowak as well as the Rockets on the top level.
He then goes along the route to Cinnabar, KOing all the Water-type pokemon on the way with ease. This is because most of those will either be NFE or will have pitiful defence. After that, he should be at a sufficient level to take on Blaine in Red or Blue (or Yellow if you can set-up on Ninetails without him KOing you with Flamethrower). Following that, you head to Giovanni's gym (use someone else to handle Sabrina), take out his grunts and then face him. You set up on his Rhyhorn, who only has junk moves, and then you sweep with +6 Hi Jump Kick or +6 Body Slam. From there on you take on the E4, sweeping Lorelei (KO Dewgong and then set up on Cloyster for the rest of the team) and Bruno (He can practically wall Onix). He falters to Agatha, sure, but we all knew that. If he comes in after Gyarados, he can sweep Lance by taking advantage of Agility and setting up to +6. He can then go onto set up on Rival's Pidgeot, only to +1, depending on what it does, and then do some damage, losing out only to Alakazam, Charizard and a select few others.

That's a pretty good late-game stretch to me. This pretty much means he only could ask for Dugtrio, Alakazam or Zapdos as a partner, and he's pretty much set for the end game.

And compared to the other types, that's actually better than most. Ground types hate Lorelei and Sabrina, as well as the stretch of water trainers before Cinnabar. Grass-types despise Agatha, Blaine and the trainers along Cycling road. Water types have trouble with Lorelei as well, although they do finish off well. So not everyone has great match-ups where Hitmonlee does.

And it does not matter if you think it is outclassed, that is not the issue. If I wanted to use Hitmonlee no matter what, I should see it weighed on its merits rather than a comparison.

And no, before you complain about setting up, he only should be doing so on the important battles. The scrubs he fights on the way don't weaken him because he OHKO's them along the way. Yes, Raticate and others can set up as well, but that does not detract from Hitmonlee being able to do it too.

He is really efficient as well, as you only use 1 TM on him (and that can even be Strength if you are a bit of a miser), and maybe a couple of Super potions along the way. Fairly inexpensive as far as pokemon go. He comes from a decent EXP area, at a decent level and within decent range of pokemon he can grind on. Hell, you can take him down to Celadon dept store and clear that out with him with just any set of normal and fighting moves.

I'm not blind to Hitmonlee's flaws. He would really love Rock Slide for coverage, that's to be sure. Or Earthquake to hit the Ghost-types. And I'm not appealing for Top, he doesn't break the game. But still, he adds great value and can be a great compliment to pokemon like Charizard and Zapdos. High-tier is where he should be, with the other pokemon of his ilk. He doesn't really falter, there are just some pokemon he cannot get around.

Edit: And now I'm off to bed. If you have a rebuttal, I'll address it sometime tomorrow, probably around 10pm my time.
 
#91
@Hemp Man: That's great. I don't mind you jumping the gun on this before I officially finalised the tiers of all the Pokemon up for discussion at the moment (it's pretty clear that this is the way it's going to end up). I won't add it until I finalise everything though.

I see you mentioned the Gyarados thing for Rival, but you should also specifically add these Rival battles to the list of trainers in the match-up section, as was decided. Add Cerulean Rival, and Silph Co. Rival at least, probably the 2nd Rival battle on Route 22 too. I'll let you decide whether you add the others. I don't think they are as important.

In additional comments you say it has to rely on Tackle. You mean to say Scratch.

You should probably discuss the stats of the unevolved forms in the stats section, particularly Charmeleon and its mediocre offences (64 Attack and 65 Special).
Aha, sorry about jumping the gun, but yeah it seemed like we all guaranteed to merge them. I'll fix the errors, and add the rival battles.

Before I edit, we should all determine what rival battles we should include for each Pokemon. I would include all of them except for the one in Oak's Lab and the Optional One.
 

atsync

Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
is a Pokemon Researcheris a Contributor to Smogon
#92
Before I edit, we should all determine what rival battles we should include for each Pokemon. I would include all of them except for the one in Oak's Lab and the Optional One.
That's fine. I would argue that S.S Anne and Pokemon Tower Rival battles are too easy to worry about, but I guess it looks a bit better to include those as well if we include the other ones.

But yeah leave out the 1st 2 battles. Most Pokemon arrive too late to battle against them anyway.
 
#93
I'll bite. Yellow Machamp is in Low tier despite having MORE attack, MORE bulk, and MORE coverage options aside from the lackluster Fighting type (not to mention MORE Experience because Boosted Experience).

Hitmonlee literally has two modes of attacking: Fighting, and Normal. That's...kind of lame, to be honest, especially when Blaine shits all over Hitmonlee should he try to set up, Agatha laughs at him, and Lorelei doesn't really care about his Super Effective hits.

Yellow Machamp on the other hand, has Dig if you haven't given it to Charmeleon, Rock Slide, which is a TM that nothing really uses, and Fire Blast.

Once again, if Yellow Machamp is Low, then how the hell is Hitmonlee High?
 
#94
I'll bite. Yellow Machamp is in Low tier despite having MORE attack, MORE bulk, and MORE coverage options aside from the lackluster Fighting type (not to mention MORE Experience because Boosted Experience).

Hitmonlee literally has two modes of attacking: Fighting, and Normal. That's...kind of lame, to be honest, especially when Blaine shits all over Hitmonlee should he try to set up, Agatha laughs at him, and Lorelei doesn't really care about his Super Effective hits.

Yellow Machamp on the other hand, has Dig if you haven't given it to Charmeleon, Rock Slide, which is a TM that nothing really uses, and Fire Blast.

Once again, if Yellow Machamp is Low, then how the hell is Hitmonlee High?
well, i'm no expert, but a major factor is that trading isn't possible for many, many players; and that's a huge setback for machamp. plus, fire blast on machamp? ew.

also machamp is really really ugly so hitmonlee gets coolness points B)
that said, on my first kanto adventure, i picked the hitmon in the dress.
 
#95
I can only speculate about Yellow Machamp, but I can only assume that it's because of his low speed. Getting hit first consistently means he cannot sweep, especially late-game. I'm pretty sure Hitmonlee has 42 base speed higher, which is a significant difference. For a frame of reference, how much would Alakazam suck if it was abysmally slow?

In regards to Agatha, all that team can really do is annoy Hitmonlee to death, and even then, that is just the ghosts. It can actually take out Golbat and Arbok in this battle, it's just not worth switching him out and in for that though.

With Blaine, the match-up is very different between Yellow and Blue. In Blue, Hitmonlee sets up on growlithe and then sweeps. In Yellow, Hitmonlee sweeps if Ninetails does not use Flamethrower, or confuse ray. It essentially comes down to a 50% match-up.

I fail to see how Lorelei is even a threat in the slightest. You KO Dewgong, set up on Cloyster, and then you proceed to sweep.

If I have to I will record a Hitmonlee play through and show you so we can settle this. I don't know why this is so hard for you guys.
 
#96
I can only speculate about Yellow Machamp, but I can only assume that it's because of his low speed. Getting hit first consistently means he cannot sweep, especially late-game. I'm pretty sure Hitmonlee has 42 base speed higher, which is a significant difference. For a frame of reference, how much would Alakazam suck if it was abysmally slow?

In regards to Agatha, all that team can really do is annoy Hitmonlee to death, and even then, that is just the ghosts. It can actually take out Golbat and Arbok in this battle, it's just not worth switching him out and in for that though.

With Blaine, the match-up is very different between Yellow and Blue. In Blue, Hitmonlee sets up on growlithe and then sweeps. In Yellow, Hitmonlee sweeps if Ninetails does not use Flamethrower, or confuse ray. It essentially comes down to a 50% match-up.

I fail to see how Lorelei is even a threat in the slightest. You KO Dewgong, set up on Cloyster, and then you proceed to sweep.

If I have to I will record a Hitmonlee play through and show you so we can settle this. I don't know why this is so hard for you guys.
At least one of Agatha's Gengars pack Psychic, so have fun with that. Also, Golbat packs Confuse Ray, so if you're unlucky, you'll be eating

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Jynx is A: Faster than Hitmonlee, and B: packs Lovely Kiss, stopping him in his tracks. Slowbro also has lots of bulk, and packs STAB moves.

'zam would suck because he takes hits like a wet paper bag. Machamp takes hits pretty well, and hits harder. I ask again, Yellow Machamp, which you get via in-game trade, is Low. You're putting Hitmonlee, who lacks everything Machamp has aside from Speed...in High? Doesn't this sound strange to you? Something that outclasses something else being in a lower tier despite being found in roughly the same part of the game?
 
#97
I put Machamp in Yellow at Low because its poor Speed meant it had to take repeated hits, and Machamp's defenses are not too great. Also, unlike Hitmonlee, Machamp doesn't really have that good of a STAB move.
 
#99
Submission has 20% chance of missing and recoil damage.

Basically, here's a summary of how Machamp went.
Koga/Sabrina: Psychic spam stopped any chance of a Machamp sweep
Blaine/Giovanni: Pretty good with Earthquake
Lorelei: Submission recoil as well as taking repeated hits means Machamp faints before he can sweep, despite the type advantage.
Bruno: OK mirror match
Agatha: Earthquake kills her Ghosts/Rock Slide for Golbat, but not before being spammed by status hax
Lance: Rock Slide is SE on his three best Pokemon, but Machamp is not a fan of Hydro Pump/Fly/Hyper Beam

So basically the best matches he had were the ones were he was fighting foes weak to Earthquake, and even then I think overall a Ground type would just do a better job.
 
Which is pretty much what Hitmonlee has to deal with. If you miss, even once, it ruins your sweep. Also, Machamp Digkills RB Koga thanks to him using...nothing that has Psychic moves. Here's a theorysummery of how Hitmonlee would do

Koga/Sabrina: Psychic ruins your sweeping chance.
Blaine/Giovanni: Dugtrio outspeeds and do serious damage. It also doesn't help things in that Gio leads with Dugtrio. On the flipside, Arcanine in both games outspeed and can OHKO Hitmonlee.
Lorelei: Jynx ruins any sweeping attempt, and considering the AI, they'll bring Jynx in right after you kill Dewgong...if you do manage to OHKO it with HJK.
Bruno: Machamp wrecks you, Onixes are never a problem, otherwise alright.
Agatha: Hitmonlee, meet more things that are faster than you! One of the Gengars pack the Hypnosis/Dream Eater combo, while the other one packs Psychic. Golbat's also faster than you and will not hesitate to use Confuse Ray. Arbok also has Glare, so...yeah.
Lance: Say Hi to Fly, STAB Hydro Pump/NonSTAB Hyper Beam and other nasty things like that. His lead outspeeds you, by the way, unless you're on-level (probably not happening in an effeciant run)

So...Hitmonlee doesn't get a chance to set up anywhere in the E4 and sweep, dies to the first two gym leaders it can fight not named Erika, and...yeah, his speed isn't looking too impressive when all the leads outspeed you anyway. Frankly, Machamp does better because it actually gets access to cool things like Rock Slide and DOESN'T HAVE TO SET UP.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)