Out of curiosity, are we assuming that every trainer in the game is being battled, or are we skipping trainers? What's the ruling on random encounters? I'm asking to do any test runs under these assumptions.
I generally fight all Trainers and avoid random encounters (unless I am using a starter or some Route 1 mon, in that case, I fight them for few levels) when I test for any game.Out of curiosity, are we assuming that every trainer in the game is being battled, or are we skipping trainers? What's the ruling on random encounters? I'm asking to do any test runs under these assumptions.
I won't use Geodude as I already used one in my Emerald run and would like to use some different Pokemon. I'll probably try Charmander as we have already discussed Bulbasaur in terms of starters and I want to see if it's worthy of A. I'll happily use the others though.Try Snorlax at the least. If you don’t have any other reservations about what mons you want to run, try Mankey, Geodude, and Farfetch’d. (you can use a starter temporarily to get you by until Snorlax or so). HM Slaves are fine obviously. Do those choices work for you?
I can do Jigglypuff next run myself.
Charmander works fine with me, go for it!I won't use Geodude as I already used one in my Emerald run and would like to use some different Pokemon. I'll probably try Charmander as we have already discussed Bulbasaur in terms of starters and I want to see if it's worthy of A. I'll happily use the others though.
That works fine Lemon. We're kinda just getting a feel for how everything is tiered at the moment, so a lot of stuff, if not everything, is fair game.I can use Geodude. I'll probably end up testing Squirtle, Geodude, Machop and Jigglypuff. Unless of course, anything else warrants testing instead. Both Machamp and Golem will be used rather than Graveler and Machoke.
The more tests on them the merrier I guess. A part of me wonders if Paras could be a decent Misty counter. I kind of doubt it though.I was thinking of running Spearow, Jigglypuff, Paras, and Snorlax. I know that's double coverage on Jigglypuff and Snorlax, but if people don't mind, I feel like I brought up the comparison so I have to bring it home.
Paras is another slowmon. It's probably the worst of the early-game physical Pokémon who can Dig (others being Sandshrew, Rattata, Geodude, Ekans), but who knows—Spore sounds useful and maybe the least critical Slash in the game will still be worth something. I suspect it will be better than E tier though maybe not by much.
I wanted to run Spearow early as kind of a control, to calibrate myself as I get back into the RBY flow. It looks like it'll provide consistent low B or high C performance throughout the game and I will be using it as a benchmark to compare the other Pokémon.
In my mind, I foresee it going Jigglypuff > Spearow > Snorlax > Paras, though the Spearow vs. Snorlax one will be harder to call since it cuts across different availabilities. Or maybe all those slow Pokémon will drive me nuts and I'll find Spearow the best.
I want to add that Paras starts with 70 Atk, which is quite high for a non-evolved Pokémon, and is in fact higher than any starter in second stage, for example, and Paras has access to Body Slam, which means that it should be inflicting a similar amount of damage. Even with Scratch it has been inflicting a decent amount of damage for the early-game. Paras can also get by faster enemies with the help of the early Stun Spore (it only needs one level). The impression that I have got with Paras, at least until the Pokémon Tower, is that when it gets Stun Spore is when it gets going, and it's at this point after the Rock Tunnel in the mid-game that its low speed is starting to weigh on me. It also makes me wonder if Spore is truly the best status move for Parasect and not Stun Spore, since I have felt a higher difficulty in using it when I replaced paralysis with sleep.- Paras has a "Magikarp" period but is basically fine thereafter
Paras: C-tier. It wasn't bad with Dig! Needing Dig loses it major points but it works when it has Dig and it has some surprise bonuses, too (good against Misty, against Grass-types). It has to be at least a tier below Spearow, but it is clearly better than the mons with dubious join levels, barren movepools, or terrible stats that should populate the bottom two tiers (Aerodactyl, Zubat, Lapras, Yellow Farfetch'd, etc.)
I am going to address both of these points.There's an argument to be made, especially if you don't want to privilege early mons too much, that any Pokémon that is the best in the game for some stretch of the game should be S tier. And Dugtrio and Kadabra (let alone Alakazam) definitely are. And then you'd have a fatter S tier with Nidos, Clefairy, Abra, Dugtrio, Articuno, Zapdos, and a few other plausible candidates (Squirtle, Mr. Mime, Jynx, umm.... Jigglypuff!?!?!?).
And then there's the argument that S tier should be early-game biased (or that Abra and Dugtrio dominate the least challenging part of the game and that doesn't count for as much), in which case Kadabra and especially Dugtrio taper off too much by the end of the game to be S tier. And then the question for Alakazam, in my eyes, is whether that extra 15 base Special is enough to make it an elite Pokémon for the Elite Four. Because it would be really hard to argue that a Pokémon that claims to be the best in the game from level 16 to the end of the game shouldn't be S tier, but maybe Alakazam will fail to distinguish itself against the Elite Four compared to, for instance, some of the Pokémon I talked about in my last post.
Fire doesn’t resist ice in gen 1, so only LoreleiI am going to address both of these points.
As for the first paragraph, in particular being good for "some stretch of the game": that's just...not an S to me. Similar to what Ryota said above, it should be extremely dominant throughout the entire game, with maybe one outright bad matchup, to be an S-tier, at least in my opinion.
As for a consistent S tier with a minor issue, I will bring up Darumaka from when we tiered Pokemon Black and White. Several derided Darumaka due to Hustle (actually a minor inconvenience at best with Eviolite), and for having one, debatably two outright bad matchups (Clay and to an extent Marshal). However, Darumaka's 90 Attack meant it OHKOed everything with Fire Punch as long as it hit, and upon evolving you get one of the most ludicrously efficient mons in the game, one even able to bypass stuff like the 8th Gym and Ghetsis with Belly Drum (and X Speed in the case of the latter). Regardless of Hustle, it was still good throughout the entire game.
Relatedly, like Ryota said, a mon struggling against the Elite Four can really hurt an potential S tier. Again in Black and White, several said Archen was S because it gets Acrobatics 3 levels after it is revived and really only struggles with Elesa and to an extent Clay. Truth was, when we tested it, we found Archeops struggled at the Elite 4 despite the insane offensive stats because Acrobatics simply does not OHKO everything anymore, which would often knock the prehistoric mon into Defeatist range. These two periods of slight mediocrity contributed to its A ranking (though most people who viewed the final list were in support of S).
What do I mean by this, and how does it relate to RBY? Well, S should be reserved for the cream of the crop. In BW1, this was only three Pokemon: Darumaka, Drilbur, and Scraggy. In RBY this might be a larger pool, but even in the original lists there were only eight Pokemon in top: Abra, Articuno, Clefairy, Diglett, Nidoran F, Nidoran M, Squirtle (RB) and Zapdos. While this might be warranted, I honestly think the list could be cut down a bit to four or five here in our list.
As for S-tier being early-game based...then why are Zapdos and Articuno there? Yes, level 50, but you have to go out of your way to catch them and they come post-Surf. A similarly late mon in Jynx makes up for this because traded EXP and the fact Psychic is virtually uncontested aside from maybe Gengar and Clefable. Even then, you can still Lovely Kiss and Ice Punch your way to victory because Ice is virtually unresisted outside Blaine and Lorelei.
I personally think a TM-less list and a non-TM-less list would go a long way in helping hash out which mons are self-sufficient the most, being friendly to both casual and advanced players. Your opinions are perfectly valid Longfellow. I just think we need to slow down on potentially putting everything in S so fast. Because when everyone's super...no one will be. Mons in A are still extremely good. I just think there needs to be a visible distinction between "extremely good" and "best in the game and borderline required for completing the game."
Psychic is contested by Mr. Mime and Exeggutor, too, which they need to perform adequately. Also Butterfree and Venomoth really need it, and Electabuzz and Magmar benefit strongly from it since it's part of their niches, although all of them are in lower tiers.A similarly late mon in Jynx makes up for this because traded EXP and the fact Psychic is virtually uncontested aside from maybe Gengar and Clefable. Even then, you can still Lovely Kiss and Ice Punch your way to victory because Ice is virtually unresisted outside Blaine and Lorelei.