Really is it that good? Do you use it in UU or OU? I now kinda wanna try it out. Bulk Up seems odd is it meant to sweep or just poke holes because I cant see it sweeping with only decent speed and decent defense. I assume it follows standard sub punch procedure but with a set up move Im not quite sure. I guess I feel that as soon as the opponent figures out its a bulk up set they can just break the sub and kill you because a plus 1 295 attack stat isnt exactly game breaking...
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Poliwrath
- Thread starter Forte.EXE
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Actually, I run Ice Punch. Ice/ Fighting gets excellent coverage, and hits all said counters for SE or neutral damage. It also has the benefit of hitting other common switch ins such as the Latis, Zapdos, Dragons and Grasses for SE damage as well. I know that it is still "technically" walled by Jellicent, but in reality it's not at all. With a Sub up, Jellicent can do absolute ZILCH to Poliwrath in return. It can't Wow/ Toxic or Scald, and Shadow Ball doesn't break Sub, so I just boost up to +6 (which is surprising easy against Jellicent). A +6 Ice Punch is usually enough to 2HKO Jellicent, depending on the spread.
I love it, but like I said, I don't think everyone "understands" how to work it. I use it in OU a lot and I find it does very well there. It can come in and set up on Forretress, Scizor, Ttar, Heatran, Vaporeon/Jellicent/Tentacruel/Politoed (provided you scout for Toxic). Lots of opportunities for it to set up.
The idea of Bulk Up is to make its Subs damn near unbreakable. I find it can sweep (much more often than a Pokemon with base 70 Spe should be able to) but I guess it's best classified as a hole puncher.
If anyone's interested I can post the spread I use as well as some logs to get an idea of how it works.
I remember experimenting with a similar Sub+Bulk Up set, but with circle throw and waterfall over focus punch+ice punch. It was more of a pivot set, and it meshed well with the spdef ferrothorn I used. Then again, focus punch might've been better because of the extremely high power rather than shuffling for entry hazard damage...
edit: I remember having a toxic spiker and another mon with Toxic, so I never really worried too much about Jellicent and just saw it as free setup.
edit: I remember having a toxic spiker and another mon with Toxic, so I never really worried too much about Jellicent and just saw it as free setup.
Yup, most definitely. SS W/O Drizzle isn't worth it since there are other 'mons that do it much better and Damp is, well, Damp.
I often considered RestTalk with Circle Throw since Sleep Talk negates Circle Throw's negative priority. However, it meant I had to make too many changes to my team (I didn't have a dedicated hazard layer OR a Spin blocker). Circle Throw is underrated on Poliwrath though IMO. It's one of the few 'mons to get STAB on it that are actually viable users.
Definetely post the Ev spread. Im already theorymoning a core with bulk up subpunch Poliwrath and Scizor who can lure in bulky water and heatrans as well as pursuiting stuff like reunclus that gives Poliwrath trouble.
I am currently using Sub bulk up Circle Throw Waterfall on a stall team with Roserade to set up T spikes and for synergy as well as Skarmory for spikes and synergy. I never really find myself using bulk up because I get forcxed a lot and I make it my priority to phaze first. I probably just have to adjust my playstyle though so I dont really have an opinion besides the great synergy it has with specially bulky T-spikes Roserade, Skarm, and Sub Diasble Gengar.
I am currently using Sub bulk up Circle Throw Waterfall on a stall team with Roserade to set up T spikes and for synergy as well as Skarmory for spikes and synergy. I never really find myself using bulk up because I get forcxed a lot and I make it my priority to phaze first. I probably just have to adjust my playstyle though so I dont really have an opinion besides the great synergy it has with specially bulky T-spikes Roserade, Skarm, and Sub Diasble Gengar.
I went 252 HP/216 Def/40 Spe Impish. put him at 186 speed, which is fast enough to phaze more quickly than common roar/ww users and sub up vs. toxic. 252/176/80 would probably be the best, since the goal is to make the sub unbreakable as soon as possible.
This SubPunching Bulk Up Poliwrath sounds good in theory, but have you gotten a lot of good results with it? It seems like Poliwrath doesn't have enough bulk or HP to give it time to set up multiple Substitutes and keep Bulking Up with so many powerful Special Attackers running around. I feel like it's more worthwhile to run something that isn't a stat boosting move so he has more opportunities to come in and punch holes rather than try to set up and sweep. Toxicroak pulls this set off in rain because of how much health he can restore each turn. But Poliwrath doesn't seem like he has the pseudo-bulk Dry Skin Toxicroak has to pull this off very well.
Poliwrath @Leftovers
252 HP| 156 Atk| 100 Spe
Impish/Adamant
-Substitute
-Bulk Up
-Focus Punch
-Ice Punch
That's the spread I use. However, it could easily be varied to suit your needs. You could put the 156 EV's in Def or SpD to make it more bulky and go with an Adamant nature. This spread is just what works for me. Whatever you do with the EVs, HP should always be maxed and there should ALWAYS be enough Spe EVs to outspeed other Bulky Waters. In my case, I went with 100 EVs to outspeed 4 Spe Milotic (who at base 80 Spe is the fastest conventional Bulky Water). You still need to invest or pick a +Atk nature so that after a Bulk Up or 2, Focus Punch really starts to hurt.
252 HP| 156 Atk| 100 Spe
Impish/Adamant
-Substitute
-Bulk Up
-Focus Punch
-Ice Punch
That's the spread I use. However, it could easily be varied to suit your needs. You could put the 156 EV's in Def or SpD to make it more bulky and go with an Adamant nature. This spread is just what works for me. Whatever you do with the EVs, HP should always be maxed and there should ALWAYS be enough Spe EVs to outspeed other Bulky Waters. In my case, I went with 100 EVs to outspeed 4 Spe Milotic (who at base 80 Spe is the fastest conventional Bulky Water). You still need to invest or pick a +Atk nature so that after a Bulk Up or 2, Focus Punch really starts to hurt.
you forgot suicune
I actually didn't. It's just the majority of Suicune are still mono-Water RestTalkers that can do absolutely nothing to Poliwrath. If they aren't mono-Water they usually carry Ice Beam, which is again, useless. In my experience, only about 1 out of every 5 Suicune cause Poliwrath trouble.
poliwrath doesn't need speed EVs to beat the standard jellicent spread.
So, lets see. Sub punching Poliwrath.... appreciates a pursuit user as psychics and ghosts are really troublesome. Tyranitars sandstorm is troublesome as Poliwrath has no recovery outside of leftovers and they share a grass weakness so Scizor seems your best bet and they bothhave pretty good type synergy. I can see NP Celebi really liking Poliwraths hole punching abilities. They also lure in pokemon that can be set up on by the other. Poliwrath seems to revolve around using resistances and bulk to get a free a sub up and start hurting things so Pokemon that lure in water, fire, ice, steel, bug, rock and dark attacks seem good. Poliwrath can also possibly lure and remove steels so a dragon type teammate might seem nice. The Lati's have great synergy with Poliwrath as well
A great partner and one that I use is Rotom-H. Rotom-H lures in Rock and Water types before Volt-Switching for Poliwrath into a free health boost (Water Attack) or resisted hit. Rotom-H also resists everyone of Poliwrath's weaknesses bar Psychic. A great defensive/offensive pivot duo.
Oooh. Also on the note of teammates: Celetran. I call it: "The Wrath of Celetran". Celebi with U-turn can give Heatran Flash fire boost or Poliwrtah a chance to set up. Im not gonna go into the great type synergy they have because we all know that. But all of them do love free turns to set up, scout or do damage and thats what the cores objective is.
What is that, some reference to CB: The Wrath of Cortex or something?
Back to Poliwrath, you know what no one uses on it nowadays? Psychic. It can take care of Poison (seen rarely, though) and opposing Fighting types-it is also the only way for Poliwrath to take care of the latter.
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No, it was a reference to using Poliwrath with Celetran.
Back to the silliness of using Psychic, that also heavily involves investing in Special attack EVs that Poliwrtah needs to do damage and take hits. Im also quite sure that a stab Wateerfall coming off of Poliwrath's higher attack would do more than Psychic coming of terrible special attack.
Slowking would like to talk with you :P
Even with his good dual STAB, I simply can't see him being overly effective. All of his stats are average, but average really isn't good enough in today's metagame. Why use medicore when pokemon in the same tier have superior stats/movepools (cough-Feraligatr-cough)? He has a unique niche, but it just seems like it's so small it wouldn't be worth a team slot. I hope I'm wrong, since I like Poliwrath.
To me his biggest addition was Circle Throw. He can come in on a Water move and start shuffling. In the lower tiers, he can take a few hits.
