Poll for our default simulator tiering level

[Colonel M]

Meh, I like berating sometimes. Especially poorly-constructed things. Alas.

OK, this myth that GameFreak only cares about Doubles has got to stop. It's complete crap. It's not that they only care about Doubles. It's that the Singles game they're trying to balance is a 3v3 game, not a 6v6 game. That's why Stealth Rock didn't get nerfed in 5th or 6th gen: it's nowhere near as useful or common in a 3v3 environment.

Okay, so then again - why haven't we switched to 3v3 either? If this ultimate goal for some arbitrary reason (and from what I read in both threads it was due to a misread on how to execute Level 100 battles) to simulate the actual Pokemon tier - then why don't we just follow suit and just do it already? It's not even a point of it being doubles - it's a point of consistency.

If you're changing to Level 50 purely for the sake of being closer to Gamefreak's ruleset, then cut the middle man and just convert completely to it. Is that so hard to figure out, or do we have to seriously continue this thought process that we have to be closer to Gamefreak's meta but we refuse to do so.

 

[PKMN1]

Really? That's your logic? Because some people don't lie smogon, it's a joke?

/vp/ always talks following smogon rules, even if they make fun of smogon users now and then, gamefaqs has the same thing, but with more casual players. In fact, all of the people that put a dislike towards smogon aren't competitive players. Smogon isn't trying to impress non competitive players, it's trying to run a competitive metagame, and if you can find me a more popular one, then you can have a point to argue.

Oh, I wasn't talking about VGCs. VGCs are an entirely different ballgame. In fact, Smogon supports VGCs on simulators. We even have VGC analyses, so I'm not entirely sure why you brought that up. I'm talking about Smogon's singles banlist vs the singles banlist used by Nintendo for Wi-Fi and such (banning cover legends, the pixies, etc.). While Nintendo makes attempts to balance these metagames, they do it on a very shallow level. They don't do rigorous testing, they just come up with an initial banlist based on legendary status and stick with it. Nintendo doesn't care if DrizzleToed + Swift Swimmer teams destroy other teams in their metagame with little effort. They don't care if Speed Boost Blaziken is overpowered either. Neither of these involve legendaries, so they could care less.

No, it is a joke because of the unwillingness to change with the higher ups (you are not even ALLOWED to talk about whether rocks should be banned or not), or to admit that Nintendo actually has a meta-game and it is just VERY different than Smogon's. The stuff about Nintendo not caring about competitive battlers does not even make any sense, they care more about 3 out of 6 Pokemon vs 3 out of 6 Pokemon instead of 6v6 full and have been balancing for that. For example Stealth rocks are near useless in 3v3, which is why it is not changed, and weather was nerfed a lot this gen so they obviously cared about that. Defog was useful in double battles since you could aim for you partner and that could get rid of hazards (when that were actually used)

 

[Stellar]

This change has nothing to do with adapting Smogon's play to be more like Nintendo's. Please stop bringing that up.

 

[TLCJR4LIFE]

Is level 50 really that bad? I feel like if level 50 all is implemented for the Smogon metagame there will be whining for a week and then everyone will realize its not that big of a change. I feel like its something worth experimenting and its something that will only be accepted by a majority of the community if they are forced to deal with it for a few days. The most common reason for keeping it 100 all seems to be "because its been this way for years!" and "I don't like change."

Out of all the polls like banned swift swim + drizzle, this one looks like it will have very minor changes to the game. A little bit of different math here and there will be the aftermath right?

I just feel it is an extremely unnecessary change. I don't really see why we are pandering to the wi-fi game. Smogon and sim play has never been about wi-fi play. Smogon was doing sim play before Nintendo was even allowing wifi-battles.

Secondly, people like me aren't going to buy a 3DS and a game because I don't enjoy playing linear, childish games. I play on Smogon for the metagame and competition....the gen 6 changes are going to be big enough do we really want another power and speed creep? Do we really want to turn the metagame upside down on what checks things and what doesn't?

I feel like this should be something that is it's own meta like OU(no SR) and perhaps tested before just unceremoniously being shoved down our throats.

 

[Shiruba]

This change has nothing to do with adapting Smogon's play to be more like Nintendo's. Please stop bringing that up.

• All cartridge and officially supported metagames are Lv50

Pick one.

 

[Iura]

Lvl 50 is the way I have to play on RM on my X... Makes it easier for me to actually RELATE this info onto my actual game...
I see generation fanboys but not with pokemon, with levels... Wtf

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

I keep on seeing a logical error in a lot of pro 50 sides that I feel should be addressed. Let me make this clear, level 100 is the standard metagame and has been for over a decade, if you want to change it you have to convince us of why it needs to be changed. It is not our job to convince you of why 100 is better. The 'logic' I am seeing of "I don't see why not, so lets change it" is laughable.

If you are wondering as to why, just look at any basic debate, lets say a court room: the defendant is innocent until proven guilty. The court does not decide if the person is innocent or not, but if they are guilty of the crime. If they are not found guilty of the crime, they are get off. If you said in court "well I don't see any reason why he couldn't of killed him" you would be laughed out of court.

This is literally logic 101.

 

[Immortal]

Lv.50 sets aren't really that hard to adapt from standard lv.100 sets, as I've said in my last post, and in most cases where the damage increase is noticeable, all you need to do is shift a few EVs to keep safe checks safe (and in more cases, you don't even need to do that).

For example, Mega-Mawile needs 252 HP / 128 SDef to avoid a 2HKO from LO-Latios in LV.100. In Lv.50 there's a slight chance of a 2HKO, but this can be remedied by adding a mere 4 SDef EVs.

I REALLY do not want to redo the EVs on all my pokemon, it is so much easier to just train them to level 100

 

[TLCJR4LIFE]

This change has nothing to do with adapting Smogon's play to be more like Nintendo's. Please stop bringing that up.

Can you perhaps outline the reasons for this change other than pandering to wi-fi players?

 

[Stellar]

Pick one.

As I said earlier, that post is defunct. I do not like that it was copied and pasted into the first post without being altered in accordance to the discussion that occurred in the staff forum. The rationale for the change had shifted considerably before this thread was created.

And no, I have no stake in this fight. I do not care one bit whether this change happens or not. I brought a topic up for discussion. I greatly dislike the type of "discussion" that is happening in this thread, and I do not wish to participate in it.

The only reason I posted was because Aldaron did not address the arguments and counterarguments that were considered in the private thread.

 

[raddaya]

Then may I sincerely suggest this thread be locked and a new one created with the proper facts and proper reasoning? As members of this community I think we are at least entitled to knowing the real reasoning behind something, even if we don't like it.

 

[Iura]

Wait I just realized... Can't we make two different metas? One: Our metagame, Smogon
Two: Make a In-Game metagame which bans all the regular ubers (like heatran is allowed lol), 3v3 Singles and Level 50s or do we already have that? Cuz I've really only looked at regular and monotype

 

[sidakarya]

I REALLY do not want to redo the EVs on all my pokemon, it is so much easier to just train them to level 100

I'm actually not arguing for lv.50 being standard though. I'm just pointing out, that lv.50 isn't a really radical departure from the lv.100 standard.

All you would need at most is an article or somesuch explaining how speed tiers and EVs would change for those players, who wish to choose to implement auto lv.50. It doesn't have to be enforced across the board (it certainly isn't in the actual game!)

 

[PellOfTheTundra]

Here's a concept:

WHY NOT BOTH?

 

[Immortal]

Can you perhaps outline the reasons for this change other than pandering to wi-fi players?

I play wifi only and definitely want it to stay at level 100. Training doesnt take long at all and is not nearly as difficult as having to figue out which EVs you would need to redo for level 100. nothing is stopping lazy people from playing at level 50 and their laziness is not a good reason to change the rules. if you cant spend a few hours to level your stuff up then just play on PS.

 

[Sheddy61]

Changing from 100 to 50 will do for all intents and purposes nothing to the meta game. Yes, so-and-so might have a 3% chance to take one less hit, but overall the differences are negligible. The two are ONLY different in terms of who else uses them. Level 50 has the advantage of Nintendo backing, 100 has such backing to less magnitude. Going to 50 can do no harm. If your opinion is GameFreak doesn't matter, it doesn't affect you, if your opinion if you like consistency, it helps, even if only the slightest amount.

I'd like to turn this around. What significant, objectively detrimental effects on the meta game would going to level 50 do? If there aren't any, why not change over?

 

[raddaya]

Here's a concept:

WHY NOT BOTH?

Multiple metagames split the playerbase and make each playerbase worse by virtue of not having enough people in either.

 

[baddjordan]

It wasn't changed last generation, no reason to change it now. Keep it consistent.

 

[TLCJR4LIFE]

It's definitely different.

And with all honesty, I can say that level 100 has endured this far because most people ENJOY level 100 play.

If not it would have been switched a long time ago for ease of use.

Now as I've said, a lot of simulator players dont buy every new game....I havent played since Gen 2 myself...and I'm sure a lot of people who bought Pearl didn't buy Diamond despite it drastically changing the metagame and same for black and black 2...

As a traditionalist I really don't see the importance of pandering to wi-fi players...it makes little sense to me.

 

[raddaya]

Changing from 100 to 50 will do for all intents and purposes nothing to the meta game. Yes, so-and-so might have a 3% chance to take one less hit, but overall the differences are negligible. The two are ONLY different in terms of who else uses them. Level 50 has the advantage of Nintendo backing, 100 has such backing to less magnitude. Going to 50 can do no harm. If your opinion is GameFreak doesn't matter, it doesn't affect you, if your opinion if you like consistency, it helps, even if only the slightest amount.

I'd like to turn this around. What significant, objectively detrimental effects on the meta game would going to level 50 do? If there aren't any, why not change over?

You are missing the point. There is no reason to fix something that is not broken. If moving to level 50 has no beneficial effects at all, then we should not move to it. I can also point to player confusion and a radical upheaval of the metagame, to say nothing of fixture of thousands of different EV sets as detrimental effects of moving to a level 50 metagame.

 

[Shiruba]

Ah, my apologies. I probably should've read more into this thread.

That said, I don't personally see the reason why it needs to be done if it's possible to battle with level 100s. Sure, the sim doesn't let you have a Pure Power Slaking [hackmons notwithstanding], as it's not like the sim is inaccurate if it's still possible. If we're not going to adapt to Nintendo's meta, and the 100-all is still legal, what's the problem? While it's not really a big deal, per-se, there's no real point in changing it if it doesn't need to be changed and there's no real benefit to doing so.
E: Yeah pretty much what every other bloke here is saying.

Here's a concept:

WHY NOT BOTH?

You missed out on a golden opportunity, friend.

Hide

 

[jas61292]

Just saying, simply because the goal is not to be more like Nintendo metagames does not mean that is not a nice side benefit. It may not be the goal of level 50, but if we were to do so, it would make the knowledge base of Smogon metagames more transferable to Nintendo metagames, which can only be a plus. It's definitely not a reason to make the change itself, but implying that it is a bad thing is kinda false.

 

[Pata Hikari]

Can you perhaps outline the reasons for this change other than pandering to wi-fi players?

Because I thought Smogon was a competitive Pokemon site. Not a competitive Pokemon simulator site.

You should be "pandering to wi-fi players" because that's what the vast majority of Pokemon play is. Simulators are nice for practice, experimentation, and for fun little exercises like CAP and the Other Metagames.

Getting to level 100 in game Is possible, yes, but it's a needless barrier. It's tedious and dull, and with the ease of breeding good, even perfect, Pokemon introduced in this generation, I don't see the harm in setting so that they're more convienient to switch from the sim to the real thing.

 

[TLCJR4LIFE]

Multiple metagames split the playerbase and make each playerbase worse by virtue of not having enough people in either.

The reality is people are going to play what they want to play.

What likely would happen is most people would play 100 and very few would play 50.

 

[Sheddy61]

You are missing the point. There is no reason to fix something that is not broken. If moving to level 50 has no beneficial effects at all, then we should not move to it. I can also point to player confusion and a radical upheaval of the metagame, to say nothing of fixture of thousands of different EV sets as detrimental effects of moving to a level 50 metagame.

100 to 50 would change some sets (if anyone uses any old sets for a new gen without adjustment, they're silly) and change very few notable milestones, which would have most likely have shifted in relevance anyway. Adjusting it for most players would be changing a single number on the program. It's incredibly easy to alter and won't do anything, I still contend there's no reason not to.