Metagame Pre-DLC SV Monotype Metagame Discussion

[wkxkevin]

Just curious, what should we do about and ? I think we should ban them.

 

[TheWyvernKing]

Unsurprisingly, dark, fairy, and ghost types litter the top 10 for overall usage. Interestingly, though, their win-rates are not as high as you may assume based on responses to this thread.

Dark's only losses so far have literally been Bug, Fighting, Fairy, and the Dark Mirror. You're right that fairy/ghost are a bit lower than one might expect but Dark quite literally has a 100% win rate in the neutral right now according to the welcome tour.

 

[Neko]

So I see Ground has a pretty standard team composed by:
-Great Tusk
-Iron Treads
-Clodsire
-Gastrodon
-Ting-Lu
-Sixth Pokemon

I wonder if Hippowdon can be used over Ting-Lu. Basically is a trade-off of bulk for sand and recovery, and it could add utility to Garchomp as sixth Pokemon if you run it with Sand Veil

How is Dugtrio viable, btw? Arena Trap isn't banned, is it?

Thinking also in Krookodile

The problem with using Hippo is the lack of Spikes (though can be covered by Gastrodon) + no Dark-typing means that Iron Valiant and Flutter Mane have more incentive to click Psyshock on the Clodsire switch-in. You could drop Iron Treads for Hippo I'd guess though + 6th mon Sandy Shocks. Also, the extra bulk clutches a lot, notably not folding immediately to Baxcalibur and Santa helps lots in Ground.

Dugtrio is odd in the sense that it...doesnt have anything to trap and feasibly kill (Aside from Chi-Yu, Ig). Its also notably slower than Scarf Meowscarada and gets OHKO'ed by Chien Pao's Ice shard

Calcs for Wiggly boi

252 Atk Dugtrio Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Chien-Pao: 220-260 (73 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Dugtrio Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Bundle: 164-194 (64.8 - 76.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flutter Mane: 220-261 (87.6 - 103.9%) -- 25% chance to OHKO [Why]

252 Atk Chien-Pao Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dugtrio: 266-314 (126 - 148.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Krookodile could be a niche scarfer with Moxie, especially since Ground has Spikes support, but you'd need a secondary scarfer in Sandy Shocks imo or have it over Great Tusk

 

[readyletsgo]

Day 1 of Elec, this type defs can build comps that handles ghost/fairy/dark, even with limited dex there's solid amount of stuff so far to build with and even without Pawmot I've got a build going so far that has decent enough synergy and counterplay to work. Gonna try and finalize it a bit more next few days, overall impression right now is people have skill issue.

I agree, I think ghost is the toughest but CAN be won...though a lot of this depends on the team comp and the skill of the ghost player. Fairy - a lot easier if you are running magnezone, but still tough because of both Iron Valiant and Flutter Mane. Dark - actually fairly easy, set up rocks and dance around until Pawmot sweeps with Mach Punch.

EDIT: DD Dragapult basically 6-0s electric

 

[TheWyvernKing]

After making a new alt (Dunkin 3.0) to ladder Elec and having gotten to 1500, some new thoughts I have...

Always loved assault vest Eel and it still works great in this meta, a slow pivot that can tank special hits and hard counters Flutter Mane without chip damage. That being said, even to do that Heavy Slam is needed which isn't great for most other mus. It's solid overall, but Flutter Mane definitely holds it back a tiny bit imo. Running Heavy Slam is the easiest way to answer Flutter, but doing so holds it back in some other key matchups. Leaving it deciding between giga/flamethrower/volt switch/u turn/drain punch/liquidation for the other 3 attacks, and each of them beneficial in their own way.
Shoutout to Jo' Z for helping me test out options, and with Iron Hands in particular he proposed Swords Dance on bulky when I had 4 attacks before. Iron Hands alone mows through Dark, and is overall super important to help answer pokemon such as Dragapult/dragon dancers, as well as most physical threats.
Dear god, running this is good for volc but it's making me wish that Rotom-W or anything else got defog. As a defogger it's incredibly unreliable, capable of posing a threat now and then and helpful vs. Annihilape but one of the least capable defoggers I've used yet. Too slow to get many chances against HO types, and not bulky enough to fill it's role throughout a match.
I initially ran tox, replacing it with Sandy Shocks now as a scarfer, but this mon is super underrated overall. It's speed tier isn't phenomenal but still hits some important speed marks at +1, such as Timid Iron Bundle. All the while it's ability in combination with Boomburst allows it to dish out more damage than Sandy Shocks, + having STAB I consider more beneficical. I see it as more useful in the Fighting mu than Sandy Shocks, and surprisingly solid overall as a scarfer, but held back by typing, bulk, and underwhelming speed. I'll also say that Toxtricity vs. bulky water which can have some troublesome cores is ultimately more beneficial than Sandy Shocks, able to OHKO Iron Bundle with Boomburst makes the move extremely spammable. Plus if you wanted you could put toxic spikes on the set as well.
I've been running iBones loaded dice set and with rock blast/pin missile it proves extremely useful in the dark and fire matchups. Honestly a bit of an underrated mon, though disappointing bulk compared to TTar, it still proves extremely useful and able to pull off late game sweeps.
I find this mon less important to run on elec than Iron-Thorns, and it's typing a bit redundant in combination with Thorns, which is part of why I looked elsewhere at first for Speed Control. I'll say that Tox is defs better in some mus, but with fire being as present as it is, this mon's ability to harm Clodsire, the overall better bulk and speed, it ultimately is better for more games overall.
No defog and no pain split hurts, but the mon is still solid for it's ability to burn offensive threats, ease pressure on Iron Hands, hit hard with Hydro Pump. I've been trying a set with hydro + stored power and nasty plot, which has proven useful for clodsire, but the set would overall be better for that scenario with Sub which isn't worth enough to replace will o. So still figuring out options here.

Some threats:
Scovillain is a huge issue, but honestly it's the 8 turns of sun with heat rock that really makes Fire a problem matchup. Fire is quite literally every other game from 1200-1500, having seen it far more than Water, Fairy, Dark, or Ghost, and I've come around to thinking that 8 turns of sun might be a bit too much.
Been running heavy slam av Eelektross for this, so definitely is a counter, but one that wouldn't be run at all if this mon wasn't around with heavy slam providing nearly no utility outside of Flutter Mane.
especially in sun this thing is an issue, I've seen -2 Overheat just straight up kill neutrals, another ridiculous calc is that it ohkos Physically defensive Rotom-W or Iron Thorns without the drop. It's a mon that needs to be played around, and I'd probs change the Eel set to better handle it if Flutter is gone but with both in the tier it's difficult to properly handle in a build.
Again, this is a mon that can be played around, but is honestly not as bad as Flutter/Chi Yu. If it hadn't taken a hit yet, +1 Rage Fist (50BP) doesn't 2hko Oricorio unless it's max attack, either way having both Oricorio + a scarf makes Annihilape usually not get away without only getting 1 KO.

Overall Elec doesn't need Pawmot/Revival Blessing to climb ladder or do well in games is kinda my POV so far, Revival Blessing isn't really needed and I find Pawmot redundant for team comp. I definitely think Elec has a higher skill ceiling that Ice and alot of mid-lower tier viability types I've tried so far, with the main issue right now being a lack of reliable defog. I was able to go 26-3 so far, and even bad mus like Elec vs. Ground aren't nearly as bad as Steel vs. Fire or Bug vs. Fire imo, with my one elec v ground at midladder so far being a win. I may post the team after finalizing stuff a bit more but Elec is definitely underrated as a type, and after using it I kinda see it as more competitively viable than Ice, and definitely more viable than grass/rock/norm/psy/flying.

 

[readyletsgo]

After making a new alt (Dunkin 3.0) to ladder Elec and having gotten to 1500, some new thoughts I have...

Always loved assault vest Eel and it still works great in this meta, a slow pivot that can tank special hits and hard counters Flutter Mane without chip damage. That being said, even to do that Heavy Slam is needed which isn't great for most other mus. It's solid overall, but Flutter Mane definitely holds it back a tiny bit imo. Running Heavy Slam is the easiest way to answer Flutter, but doing so holds it back in some other key matchups. Leaving it deciding between giga/flamethrower/volt switch/u turn/drain punch/liquidation for the other 3 attacks, and each of them beneficial in their own way.
Shoutout to Jo' Z for helping me test out options, and with Iron Hands in particular he proposed Swords Dance on bulky when I had 4 attacks before. Iron Hands alone mows through Dark, and is overall super important to help answer pokemon such as Dragapult/dragon dancers, as well as most physical threats.
Dear god, running this is good for volc but it's making me wish that Rotom-W or anything else got defog. As a defogger it's incredibly unreliable, capable of posing a threat now and then and helpful vs. Annihilape but one of the least capable defoggers I've used yet. Too slow to get many chances against HO types, and not bulky enough to fill it's role throughout a match.
I initially ran tox, replacing it with Sandy Shocks now as a scarfer, but this mon is super underrated overall. It's speed tier isn't phenomenal but still hits some important speed marks at +1, such as Timid Iron Bundle. All the while it's ability in combination with Boomburst allows it to dish out more damage than Sandy Shocks, all the while having STAB I consider more beneficical. I see it as more useful in the Fighting mu than Sandy Shocks, and surprisingly solid overall as a scarfer, but held back by typing, bulk, and underwhelming speed. I'll also say that Toxtricity vs. bulky water which can have some troublesome cores is ultimately more beneficial than Sandy Shocks, able to OHKO Iron Bundle with Boomburst makes the move extremely spammable. Plus if you wanted you could put toxic spikes on the set as well.
I've been running iBones loaded dice set and with rock blast/pin missile it proves extremely useful in the dark and fire matchups. Honestly a bit of an underrated mon, though disappointing bulk compared to TTar, it still proves extremely useful and able to pull off late game sweeps.
I find this mon less important to run on elec than Iron-Thorns, and it's typing a bit redundant in combination with Thorns, which is part of why I looked elsewhere at first for Speed Control. I'll say that Tox is defs better in some mus, but with fire being as present as it is, this mon's ability to harm Clodsire, the overall better bulk and speed, it ultimately is better for more games overall.
No defog and no pain split hurts, but the mon is still solid for it's ability to burn offensive threats, ease pressure on Iron Hands, hit hard with Hydro Pump. I've been trying a set with hydro + stored power and nasty plot, which has proven useful for clodsire, but the set would overall be better for that scenario with Sub which isn't worth enough to replace will o. So still figuring out options here.

Some threats:
Scovillain is a huge issue, but honestly it's the 8 turns of sun with heat rock that really makes Fire a problem matchup. Fire is quite literally every other game from 1200-1500, having seen it far more than Water, Fairy, Dark, or Ghost, and I've come around to thinking that 8 turns of sun might be a bit too much.
Been running heavy slam av Eelektross for this, so definitely is a counter, but one that wouldn't be run at all if this mon wasn't around with nearly heavy slam providing nearly no utility outside of Flutter Mane.
especially in sun this thing is an issue, I've seen -2 Overheat just straight up kill neutrals, another ridiculous calc is that it ohkos Physically defensive Rotom-W or Iron Thorns without the drop. It's a mon that needs to be played around, and I'd probs change the Eel set to better handle it if Flutter is gone but with both in the tier it's difficult to properly handle in a build.
Again, this is a mon that can be played around, but is honestly not as bad as Flutter/Chi Yu. If it hadn't taken a hit yet, +1 Rage Fist (50BP) doesn't 2hko Oricorio unless it's max attack, either way having both Oricorio + a scarf makes Annihilape usually not get away without only getting 1 KO.

Overall Elec doesn't need Pawmot/Revival Blessing to climb ladder or do well in games is kinda my POV so far, Revival Blessing isn't really needed and I find Pawmot redundant for team comp. I definitely think Elec has a higher skill ceiling that Ice and alot of mid-lower tier viability types I've tried so far, with the main issue right now being a lack of reliable defog. I was able to go 26-3 so far, and even bad mus like Elec vs. Ground aren't nearly as bad as Steel vs. Fire or Bug vs. Fire imo, with my one elec v ground at midladder so far being a win. I may post the team after finalizing stuff a bit more but Elec is definitely underrated as a type, and after using it I kinda see it as more competitively viable than Ice, and definitely more viable than grass/rock/norm/psy/flying.

I love this post. I agree on a lot - Eel has a niche as a levitate/AV mon and the coverage feels super important at the moment, being one of very few to have fire (outside of fire punch) and grass among other nice moves you pointed out. Tox also may have a place like you said as a scarfer, although it is tempting to try and shift gear.

As for Oricorio, it does copy Aqua Step, Fiery Dance, Dragon Dance on top of Quiver for what that's worth, but I haven't even bothered running defog at this point, just quiver, dual stab and roost, mostly to have a flying option on the team. Maybe it's worth switching over to defog because damn does hazard stack suck, especially against ground.

Iron Thorns - Hazard lead DD with edge quake is one set that has done me well so far, but it sure feels like there are many, many sets that could be viable given the crazy move pool available.

Sandy Shocks - I love this as a scarfer personally, you don't even need Tbolt, you can run Power Gem/Earth Power/hazard/Vswitch (also flash cannon if you want). Can also focus sash hazard lead, but scarf earth power cleans up a LOT right now.

Rotom - I have been using defensive resto-chesto that works pretty well with wisp, pump and vswitch, scarf trick is nice but there are faster/stronger scarf users and using it this way leaves a gaping hole defensively that frankly no one else can fill right now.

Pawmot - Iron Fist with band or scarf is amazing, ice punch is great, mach punch cleans up dark once there's a bit of chip passed around. I think there's room for both fighting/electric types on one team as they play different roles.

 

[Dragapult]

Scovillain is a huge issue, but honestly it's the 8 turns of sun with heat rock that really makes Fire a problem matchup. Fire is quite literally every other game from 1200-1500, having seen it far more than Water, Fairy, Dark, or Ghost, and I've come around to thinking that 8 turns of sun might be a bit too much.

I'm not convinced.

Scovillain is a very limited weather sweeper that excels pretty much only in the Water and Ground matchups, and – with the exception of nabbing a couple neat revenge kills –– serves as neat sack bait everywhere else. It isn't particularly strong, doesn't have much in the way of coverage and Growth sets play poorly in practice due to how frail it is. Specs is neat, but Scovillain lacks an equivalent to Barraskewda's Flip Turn and in general Fire can not really afford excess switching due to how prolific Spikes is. I would also note that Heat Rock can be a bit burdensome in practice as running it places Torkoal under a lot of pressure to both keep Sun up and do hazard control. Even under Sun it is not inordinately fast

Chi-Yu is very strong under Sun, yes, but Chi-Yu is also arguably the best Dark. It has consistently been one of the most talked about mons since we've gotten SV so to me any interrogation of Fire should start there. Without it, many of the type's key matchups (particularly Ghost) become considerable worse. Short that mon, I don't think Fire is much better off in the longterm relative to where it was last gen. It still has many of the same issues.

 

[The Black Hippopotas]

Being Wo-Chien is suffering.

I've been playing all the afternoon with Ground and two thoughts:

-Hippowdon is being underrated. It's less bulky than Ting-Lu, but the tradeoff is still very nice. Sand Stream + Slack Off makes it more durable and it allows it to spam Whirlwind with more ease too. The residual damage of the sand has given me so many wins today.
-I've tested both Dugtrio and Garchomp as my sixth Pokemon, and Dugtrio has worked better. The Garchomp set I used was very nice too (Swords Dance offensive Chomp with Rough Skin and Rocky Helmet), but I felt I had less control over the game, and I usually lost the games I played where I had it. Dugtrio as revenger killer with enough power and speed plus Focus Sash gave me wins in matchups where I usually lost with Garchomp (specially vs Grass since Dugtrio was able to trap and kill the nasty Scovillain).

I'm still testing and I will test Garchomp again, since it's likely I have been played it wrongly.

 

[Max S.]

252 Atk Great Tusk Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gholdengo: 410-486 (130.1 - 154.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO (CC is Headlong Rush)

Nitpick: Gholdengo is immune to fighting-type attacks such as Close Combat. Headlong Rush does the trick.

 

[Dragapult]

Nitpick: Gholdengo is immune to fighting-type attacks such as Close Combat. Headlong Rush does the trick.

reading is so vital

 

[The Black Hippopotas]

Playing more yesterday and today, I feel this is probably the metagame which spams the screens the most ever.

EVERY SINGLE TEAM has a Light Clay Pokemon whose only role is to put both Reflect and Light Screen. I think I still haven't found any opponent that doesn't set up screens.

 

[Neko]

Playing more yesterday and today, I feel this is probably the metagame which spams the screens the most ever.

EVERY SINGLE TEAM has a Light Clay Pokemon whose only role is to put both Reflect and Light Screen. I think I still haven't found any opponent that doesn't set up screens.

A lot of types don't use Screens though, such as Water/Ground/Dragon/Fighting and Normal/Grass/Rock

Its probably because you're always running into Dark/Fairy teams, which commonly carry Screens Grimm/Klefki. [which is kinda spammed a lot in the ladder rn]

Steel teams may carry screens via Klefki, Ice with Aurora Veil Abomasnow, Ghost with Froslass, while types such as Fire/Ghost/Electric may run screens, but its usually better off without it.

Also, there's too many wallbreakers rn with not enough walls, so balance isnt really an option bar some types like Water....

 

[Kev]

ban updates here: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ghost-in-the-machine.3712353/

Annihilape, Iron Bundle and Chi-Yu now banned

 

[TTK]

I will try to say this in a respectful way: the council is ridiculous. Only ban Chi-Yu, with other Dark Chinese still being a problem, and ban Annihilape??? Really? Well, just another example of how biased these ban votes are.

What bias are you even referring to lmao? None of the other Ruined Treasures are even remotely bannable other than Chi-yu. Chien-Pao is surprisingly pretty easy to check defensively and Annihilape was way too strong.

 

[TheWyvernKing]

I will try to say this in a respectful way: the council is ridiculous. Only ban Chi-Yu, with other Dark Chinese still being a problem, and ban Annihilape??? Really? Well, just another example of how biased these ban votes are.

You're literally the most biased person in this forum lmfao. Every post you've had thus far has been to try and keep Ghost S tier because in your opinion a ban on either Flutter or Annihilape would ruin the type, even though Ghost still is a more than solid A tier type without Annihilape and still doesn't have an anywhere near terrible Dark mu. There are types right now that do have forfeit on team preview matchups. Bug with Fire, Ice with Bug/Fire/Steel, etc. Ghost's Dark MU is nowhere near an auto loss. All the while the pokemon that was banned - Annihilape, was single handedly holding back multiple lower viability types as well as holding back entire playstyles. Elec needed to hope the Annihilape player misplayed + wasn't a special defensive Resto Chesto, Grass's defensive core loses and it struggles to offensively check, not to mention bulkier playstyles like bulky Water pretty much lose to it. This only scratches the surface of it's presence when it fully centralized the meta around it.

These were valid bans and it's pretty clear from your posts in this forum and mono chat how disingenuous you're being by calling it a biased ban vote.

 

[Bean Man]

ban updates here: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ghost-in-the-machine.3712353/

Annihilape, Iron Bundle and Chi-Yu now banned

Not 100% sure how I feel about these tbh, Only one I can support fully is Bundle.

 

[TheWyvernKing]

I may make a explanation for things here later but this kinda what I'm expecting right now for VR. Maybe Fighting goes down/Fire moves up or Poison in B are what I'm most on the fence about. A few comments..
I made some no bundle Ice past few days to see how Ice is without it. Definitely not the same but honestly it's better than types like Normal/Flying 100%. Funnily enough it's the first time I'd seen Revival Blessing as OP on Bug. Autoloss Bug/Steel but that's expected for Ice, Cloyster + Bax can do magic in Fire, surprisingly aight matchup vs. alot of other types.
Also I feel like this tiering list is a bit dishonest with how much potential some lower tier types have. Elec/Psy I defs see being solid right now, and honestly better than Poison but maybe I'm biased after using some fun teams past few days.
No Bundle Water is still amazing, I don't think it's definitely the top type like I saw it before, but not needing to face Annihilape/Bundle also boosts Water cores alot so bulky water is definitely harder to break. Maybe A tier not S but I see it as S right now.
Made a no Annihilape Ghost also, definitely not as potent but still solid. Reminds me of Gen 6 super HO mono builds you see now and then for off meta types, loads of fun.
Mostly have Fire in B cause of the boost to Ground and Dragon. Definitely less potent in the meta I'm thinking and less spammable on ladder.
Grass doesn't have to face Annihilape or Bundle so it's core is alot more threatening in this meta. The prevalence of Ground + better Water matchup, as well as not having to face Annihilape on Ghost/Fighting makes it closer to around 10-11th overall in this Meta.

 

[TTK]

What's pretty clear, is that you and Toy Time King are the ones that defend a council blindly. And that's it. Do you guys earn something from them or something? But ok, let's talk about the bans.

First: I NEVER said Ghost needs to be S Tier or even that strong. If you played past gens and I know you played, Ghost is never a broken type. After gen 9 came, and people didn't ban anything yet, Ghost sure was top 3 type, something that didn't happen since Mega Gengar was freely in use, on its current meta, of course. Dark was, is and aleays will be a bad mu, and that's ok. Everyone that play this with a minimum knowloedge of this game will inoe that. You really have to stop talking with people here, and on monotype chat like if all are dumb or something. So, you saying I'm biased is something clear that you don't have arguments about me. In my others posts I talked about Palafin-Hero, a Pokémon unhealthy to the metagame, that affected all types, I talked about Maushold's Pop Bomb, that didn't even affect my main type, but I told them to ban only the moves, but they said about the policy. And I talked about Flutter Mane, that, ok, I didn't want to lose this ad a main ghost, but I daid to not ban it, to ban Booster Energy, and people would ser that it isn't that op, ptoving that it wasn't banworthy, and, well, it wasn't banned.

Second: Iron Bundle I agreed 100%. Chi-Yu too, and really need to say, that it being Dark type is a coincidence. Because it is, and the other Dark Chinese are too all very strong because of stats, movepool and mainly, their abilities. Not because they are all Dark Ok, maybe the grass/dark one isn't so strong, but the others are very strong, and Chien Pao is ridiculous.

Third: Annihilape was strong for ghost, and was atrong for fighting too. It wasn't a Ghost only Pokémon, like Houndstone was. Even though I said it was a case of banning only the move, not the Pokémon, but again, polivy. And again, that's okay. But Annihilape to be that strong as they said it can be, even agreeing, it has to setup a lot to do the damage it can do, and well, a lot of Pokémon, after setting up like that, can be that strong. God, it's not even fast, if you spread evs to be bulky enough to set up. A faster sp.attacker can wear it down with no effort. That's why I think it wasn't ban worthy. It was an awesome option, sure is. But not ban worthy.

Continue ad homineming people and no one will take you seriously lmao. Again, you present some null point about us dickriding council when that is not even the case. "I cannot agree with bans else I'm defending council blindly." I play this game regularly, I build regularly, Bundle was not a healthy pokemon in this meta. Too fast and a lack of defensive answers. In regards to Annihilape, I had to gain more experience using it from day 1 where I was running the unset Scarf. You start to use Taunt + Bulk Up and you suddenly realise "oh the defensive answers cant do anything to this mon, Rage Fist is at like 200 BP and it's ohkoing everything!"

You have still failed to substantiate your claims regarding this "biased" council vote. There are literally explanations here to why things have gotten banned and you still haven't explained why the Ruined Pokemon are "still a problem" in your eyes.

There are ways to go about discussion and you are just doing it wrong.

 

[Rex Slayer]

What's pretty clear, is that you and Toy Time King are the ones that defend a council blindly. And that's it. Do you guys earn something from them or something? But ok, let's talk about the bans.

First: I NEVER said Ghost needs to be S Tier or even that strong. If you played past gens and I know you played, Ghost is never a broken type. After gen 9 came, and people didn't ban anything yet, Ghost sure was top 3 type, something that didn't happen since Mega Gengar was freely in use, on its current meta, of course. Dark was, is and aleays will be a bad mu, and that's ok. Everyone that play this with a minimum knowloedge of this game will inoe that. You really have to stop talking with people here, and on monotype chat like if all are dumb or something. So, you saying I'm biased is something clear that you don't have arguments about me. In my others posts I talked about Palafin-Hero, a Pokémon unhealthy to the metagame, that affected all types, I talked about Maushold's Pop Bomb, that didn't even affect my main type, but I told them to ban only the moves, but they said about the policy. And I talked about Flutter Mane, that, ok, I didn't want to lose this ad a main ghost, but I daid to not ban it, to ban Booster Energy, and people would ser that it isn't that op, ptoving that it wasn't banworthy, and, well, it wasn't banned.

Second: Iron Bundle I agreed 100%. Chi-Yu too, and really need to say, that it being Dark type is a coincidence. Because it is, and the other Dark Chinese are too all very strong because of stats, movepool and mainly, their abilities. Not because they are all Dark Ok, maybe the grass/dark one isn't so strong, but the others are very strong, and Chien Pao is ridiculous.

Third: Annihilape was strong for ghost, and was atrong for fighting too. It wasn't a Ghost only Pokémon, like Houndstone was. Even though I said it was a case of banning only the move, not the Pokémon, but again, polivy. And again, that's okay. But Annihilape to be that strong as they said it can be, even agreeing, it has to setup a lot to do the damage it can do, and well, a lot of Pokémon, after setting up like that, can be that strong. God, it's not even fast, if you spread evs to be bulky enough to set up. A faster sp.attacker can wear it down with no effort. That's why I think it wasn't ban worthy. It was an awesome option, sure is. But not ban worthy.

Gkrt Ives I would personally like to say that my post won't really be about the bans, but the idea of assuming Toy Time King, TheWyvernKing, any other player of being heavily in favor of the council. The reasonings going over the bans have already been made, and you are allowed to hold you own personal opinion like everyone else, and discuss about it. Now getting onto the main point of like I said, I would argue that they formed their own opinions from their own observations as they play same game as you. Obliviously everyone in the council is well like and know in the community, however that doesn't stop people from voicing their own opinions. Multiple times in Monotype history people had points were they vastly disagree with the council, look at that free thinking. Instead of trying to dismiss clear points people are making, actually address them directly. I known the council ain't perfect(Dracovish not being ban early in gen 8), but I think their doing a swell job recently. I hope you continue to discuss openly in the monotype community, just be a little respectful to people, we just want to enjoy the game just like you. Have a good day sincerely Rex Slayer.

 

[Black Rabbit]

I will try to say this in a respectful way: the council is ridiculous. Only ban Chi-Yu, with other Dark Chinese still being a problem, and ban Annihilape??? Really? Well, just another example of how biased these ban votes are.

The meta is literally 3 weeks old; Rome was not built in one day. You need to take a step back and realize that everything is being holistically considered one by one. There's a reason some of the paradoxes (i.e. Flutter Mane, Roaring Moon, and Iron Bundle) were not really on the subject to be banned when booster energy was still running amok last week. Flutter Mane now has a resounding 3-5 in favor of banning compared to almost being banned last week. You're spouting unnecessary loaded language, which makes you look severely biased. Period.

Third: Annihilape was strong for ghost, and was atrong for fighting too. It wasn't a Ghost only Pokémon, like Houndstone was. Even though I said it was a case of banning only the move, not the Pokémon, but again, polivy. And again, that's okay. But Annihilape to be that strong as they said it can be, even agreeing, it has to setup a lot to do the damage it can do, and well, a lot of Pokémon, after setting up like that, can be that strong. God, it's not even fast, if you spread evs to be bulky enough to set up. A faster sp.attacker can wear it down with no effort. That's why I think it wasn't ban worthy. It was an awesome option, sure is. But not ban worthy.

Annihilape was severely abused on not just Ghost but Fighting. You're literally just looking at everything in the POV of ghost only, and a very biased one. Fighting could revive Annihilape two times at most to stack Rage Fist and bring it back once its checks are gone. Regardless if revival blessing is the issue, Annihilape boasts a great offensive typing coupled with great bulk, offense, and speed. Its base speed tier is already higher than a lot of passive checkers to shut them down with taunt compared to most setup mons. There was a similar case with Palafin running something similar-- which contributed to Palafin's ban. "A faster sp.attacker can wear it down with no effort" is such a moot and shallow view of the metagame. I hope you're aware that some types are struggling to deal with Dondozo, which doesn't boasts average Sp. Defense. That alone should tell you the state of the distribution of good special attackers-- let alone fast ones-- in this meta for most types. To say just use a "special attacker" to deal with it "with no effort" is severely downplaying the gravity of the situation. Please reconsider your words.

 

[Black Rabbit]

person that don't know a thing on what to do against Annihilape, and Pawmot reviving it

If social elitism had a face, you would be it. Like what a bold statement to make in a tier where different types do not have the same tools as others. I'm not even mainly using types that lose to Annihilape. Me telling you to reconsider your words was directed moreso at you using loaded language regarding the council's decision and everyone else. The point pertaining to Dondozo was to sustain the argument against your claim of just "killing it with a fast special attacker". Yes, it has unaware, but things like specs energy ball Iron Valiant and Flutter do not kill it. Now, this is a moot to make as differences in stat spread, typing, and abilities, but it's moreso to highlight the lack of distribution of strong special attackers. There are some Annihilape sets running bulky sp. def, which futher threatens frail special attackers as it can tank hits and kill it. You cannot tell me or others that this is a skill issue when you don't even know the types we are using. Kindly, please be for real right now.

 

[TheWyvernKing]

Ok you're just rambling in forums now, to correct a few things I saw you say.

Do you really think that someone that plays the game for real, will see a Annihilape using bulk up and will not have any answer? Faster sp.attackers, unaware without hitting it to boost rage fist. We do have options to deal with it.

it takes like 60% from a specs iron bundle hydro and "unaware without hitting it" doesn't exactly answer it either considering bulk up taunt is probably the most common set. Either way, you need to play it with the possibility of both Resto-Chesto and Bulk Up - Taunt. If you're a ghost main, for example, you, it would be very simple to answer. Specs Flutter Mane requires very little chip to KO with Moonblast, you have an Unaware mon as well in Skeledirge which can at the very least get it into killing range of another pokemon. All the while you're immune to Drain Punch which limits it's longevity and have multiple options for mons that can help stop the sweep.
Alternatively if you were to run Grass, you don't have Unaware, or a faster special attacker that can beat it. You're entire Defensive core is setup fodder for bulk up taunt Annihilape. You need to keep Meowscarada alive, but even if you're band you will be unable to OHKO +1 Annihilape. You're entire gameplay would revolve around saving Meow, a pretty essential mon to use in the ghost mu, healthy enough to combat.
If you use Electric, you become almost entirely reliant that it's not a Max Special Defense Resto Chesto set, and furthermore that if it is you hope the opposing player misplays with it or you get lucky. There is VERY LITTLE COUNTERPLAY. If you ran Band Play Rough Iron Hands, you wouldn't be able to switch into a Resto Chesto Annihilape and win the 1v1 if it bulks up first turn. If you were 0 attack Iron Hands with Swords Dance + Play Rough, you have an 81% roll to lose with standard evs, and still lose unless you're max hp + defense which is worse in more scenarios. Oricorio has more utility than Kilowattrel, but loses the 1v1 to Annihilape. If you run Hurricane you run a 30% chance to autlose, and if air slash you don't bring Resto Chesto low enough to revenge with Scarf Sandy Shocks without chip.
Ice can pretty easily autoloss as well. Bulky Water won't be able to counter with most defensive utility, and fact that you need to play with both Resto Chesto and Taunt in mind makes your initial response very important.
This just barely scratches the surface, and doesn't even cover the Revival Blessing support that fighting has or the difference with screens support. Poison, Steel, Ground, Rock, even types like Bug needed to make team changes merely to exist in the same meta and even then Annihilape is an insane pokemon to handle. Even without the way that Annihilape's team further's it's potential, just having a different set whether it's speed invested or max special defense makes the difference of whether you answered it correctly or not.

Reconsider my words? I already said it was strong on both types. I don't really need to answer you about Annihilape state. All your arguments comes from a person that don't know a thing on what to do against Annihilape, and Pawmot reviving it. Like if it is super hard to counter that strategy.

Dondozo is another example of ban worthy mon, that people aren't even talking about. And you gave enoygh reasons to it, besides not mentioning it has unaware, giving another reason to ban it. But, ok man, Annihilape is op, that's what you wanna hear right? Want cookies and milk too?

It's also funny that not only have I talked about Dondozo in here multiple times. It's even funnier that every person you're insulting for "not playing the game" or "not knowing what to do against Annihilape" has actually played more than just ghost. My 3 Ladder runs so far were with Bulky Water which is #2 on ladder, Electric which is top 20, and Bug which I reached top 10 with. I'm not saying these things as someone who autoloses to Annihilape or doesn't change teams to answer it better, I'm saying it as someone who has thoroughly explored multiple types, including not only the meta with top types such as Ghost and Water. But types you likely haven't tried laddering or building with yourself such as Grass, Ice, Electric, Psychic, and Rock. You're entire perspective thus far has been with Ghost, and the moment we passed this ban you were complaining in chat that "Ghost will have to forfeit to Dark". An untrue statement considering both Mimikyu and Flutter for starters, not to mention a matchup nowhere near as bad as many other types have to face. You're POV in this discourse has been solely to make Ghost have 0 bad matchups, and even after being asked how the Dark Perils needed to be banned/suspected, you offer not only no substance on how the dark mons are broken. No examples of how types that have an issue with the mon, actually don't. You merely went on blast because we banned a ghost type with 0 perspective on any other type in the meta. For someone who is blatantly trying to insult everyone else as less skilled, unable to adapt to Annihilape, and not having actually played the game, you yourself seemed to have not touched more than 1 type or really experienced the meta outside it whatsoever.

 

[Kev]

About I saying the council is biased: you are really making it a big deal, for someone that does not make part of it. You can overcome it dude, this argument is not for you, and my statement about being biased it isn't for you too, because you does not make part of it. If you insist trying to talk about that with me, you will just talk alone about that.

I've seen you call us biased all day and not once have I seen an actual argument. And the same goes for insulting my community for "blindly following council" because they happen to actually read the posts and formulate thoughts / make their own arguments. If you are incapable of actually contributing to a discussion then just do not bother posting - if you make more posts that are just the same rambling without substance / insulting others I will just delete the post and infract you; that includes any attempt to reply to this post (unless its miraculously constructive). Instead of calling us biased, you should maybe actual attempt to read the ban posts instead of whining aimlessly. You didn't (don't) even know who is on the council so that shows your lack of knowledge and experience - if you are new lurk more instead. If you don't agree with our decisions that's fine, there's always going to be people unhappy regardless of the decision that is made, but the least you can do is actually be able to defend that argument. And if you are going to disagree, you should at least have the decency to read the post justifying it.

But yeah, bottom line is stop embarrassing yourself its tacky - if you are going to make posts then be constructive and not just insult and slander people. This is a metagame discussion thread not your pity party. Can't believe I've had to make a 2nd post saying this in like 3 weeks or something - but no more nonsense in here or I'll just delete and infract depending on the case.

And to not just make this post about scolding someone, I'll answer a question I get / see often or something that I see people complain about which doesn't make sense. Anything that we ban is absolutely fair game to return in a Home or DLC metagame. Just like last generation with the DLCs, or every time we enter a new generation, the council will re-evaluate the stuff that are banned and decide if they deserve the benefit of the doubt to return. We do not tier a future metagame, but the present one. The priority is making what we have now playable and competitive - if things change drastically in the future then we adapt to it then. I personally really hope to bring some of these mons back later, but that will be up to what the Pokemon Company decides to give us in Home and DLCs.

Also, since I see a lot of Flutter Mane talk I'll give my quick 2 cents on that as well. Personally, I dislike the idea of banning two Pokemon from the same type in the same wave. It's always better to just observe how something performs now that the other is gone since team support and chemistry is a large part of why broken things are broken. We have absolutely no reason to rush so much into banning stuff - there's plenty of time to let the metagame breathe and see things in a bubble before we start the 2023 circuit. As for Flutter Mane the mon itself, I've found it very underwhelming personally since the loss of Booster Energy. For all the types I've tried, not once did I really feel like my team was absolutely hopeless against it or that I had to go super niche to beat it; most of my builds had a relatively natural answer to it. Of course, some types like Dragon or Fighting will obviously struggle taking a Moonblast at that SpA stat but even they have ways of handling it. This isn't to say that I don't see how strong this Pokemon is; Flutter Mane is definitely one of the best in the tier right now. Simply, as it stands I have not been impressed by it or bought into the outrage surrounding it. Is it a strong wallbreaker that is hard to switch into? Absolutely - but is it impossible to switch into or an auto sweeper ? I'm not so convinced. With the recent bans, I'll definitely be focusing most of my attention on this mon though, to see if my opinion can be changed or if I can be swayed by any new posts regarding it. To me it is the only real "controversial" mon left in meta besides maybe Dondozo which I'll definitely need to see and hear more about since I've yet to be overwhelmed with one in all my games.

As for the future of quick bans, I can't guarantee anything - but imo I do feel like this last one - or the next one will be the last. I think the metagame has reached a decent point where it can start relying on suspect tests for tiering decisions instead of just quick bans. There isn't much more need for "waves" since I don't think much more is likely to be going anywhere like I said in the previous paragraph.

 

[The Black Hippopotas]

I'm surprised Flutter Mane hasnt't been banned tbh

 

[mushamu]

As an avid Ghost enjoyer from day 1 of playing the tier, I felt like making an analysis of it in SV Monotype as it has cemented itself to be one of the main driving forces in the metagame.

Ghost is a very unique type in Monotype in virtue of the typing in itself, having a nice combination of characteristics that includes being completely immune to Brick Break and Rapid Spin in a tier that is focused on hazards offense. With a combination of great offensive juggernauts and a decent defensive backbone, even with Annihilape banned Ghost is a threat to be reckoned with in the tournament scene. Despite being fairly limited in terms of team slots, it can be built in many different ways thanks to the flexibility that slot compression offers it.

Here is a personal viability ranking I made of the Pokemon on the type:

Personal Viability Rankings

S Rank

Dragapult is pretty much the sole reason why Ghost has been viable for the past two generations. It is the definition of an offensive wildcard and compresses a ton in one slot. It has over 10 viable sets, depending on what you would like for it to do on your team. Dragon Dance, Choice Specs, Choice Scarf, Choice Band, and a combination of utility, berries, and other items can all be run on the offensive juggernaut. Weakness berries like Colbur, Kasib, and Yache can all be pretty interesting too with a mix of Thunder Wave, Will-O-Wisp, and U-turn. Generally speaking, Dragapult is amazing for offensive role compression with its amazing speed and access to great utility and U-turn, it can reverse momentum extremely easily. Even when it's not outright sweeping, it's bringing other stronger Pokemon in so that they can effectively punch holes, of which Ghost has many, especially with the addition of Flutter Mane. Dragapult's flexibility is especially useful in the tournament scene where certain sets can be ran to prepare against expected archetypes due to the vast arsenal of flexibility it has.


Flutter Mane is by far the strongest wallbreaker in Monotype right now and is the main firepower of Ghost teams. I personally have found Choice Specs and Choice Scarf to be its two best sets; it doesn't have the bulk to pull off setup without screens support due to how physically frail it is but on the other hand it's just amazing at straight up nuking shit. Many Ghost teams can be built around winning Flutter Mane sack wars in combination with Mimikyu's Disguise due to just how strong it is. Choice Scarf is severely underrated and can easily pick off Pokemon late game after the opposing team has been racked up through Spikes damage.


Mimikyu has been doing what it has always done best: serve as a soft check for any offensive Pokemon in the tier- a role that is extremely useful for an offensive type that lacks defensive synergy such as Ghost. Aside from the traditional Swords Dance set, it can run other sets like Choice Scarf that is particularly interesting for spreading Thunder Wave and crippling Clodsire. Together with Flutter Mane and Dragapult, Mimikyu completes Ghost's offensive core with its defensive presence while the former punches holes and the latter compresses offensive roles.


Brambleghast is an excellent addition to Ghost in a metagame full of Spikes offense. Ghost is notoriously infamous for being hazards weak, with hazard control being a role that Pokemon like Mega Sableye and Dhelmise would fulfill in previous generations. A Grass typing is also great in a metagame where Ground is at its prime, which nobody on the type really likes switching into Power Whip. Spikes + Rapid Spin + Power Whip + Filler is a pretty decent set, with the filler being either Strength Sap or Shadow Sneak. Without Brambleghast Ghost's offensive powerhouses would easily falter against hazards, making the type much more vulnerable to losing to the main archetype of the generation. Spikes also gives Ghost a way to break through fat types like Ground and Poison.

A Rank

Gholdengo is a unique breaker with a nice typing and ability. Good as Gold is a nice ability for deflecting Grimmsnarl's Parting Shot in particular, making the Pokemon very useful against Dark. It can run sets like Nasty Plot, Air Balloon, Choice Scarf, Choice Specs, and others, but my favorite set by far is Substitute + 3 attacks with Metronome that allows it to break fatter types and take advantage Kingambit and Klefki in those respective matchups. Both Dark and Fairy are pretty good right now so Gholdengo thrives, and Colbur Berry can be interesting for Chien Pao as well.


Gengar has struggled to find a place on Ghost more than previous generations, but at the end of the day it's still Gengar. It's got decent offensive stats with a good movepool, and similar to Dragapult it can run many sets depending on what you'd like it to do. Ranging from Choice Scarf, Choice Specs, to even Substitute or Brick Break sets, the poison shadow Pokemon is still good in SV Monotype. Brick Break is surprisingly decent in a tier that is so centered around screens.


Spiritomb and Palossand form Ghost's defensive backbone. I personally feel like you need one of these Pokemon on each Ghost team that isn't strictly hyper offense, just so you don't instantly lose to some random Choice Scarf user like Iron Treads. Spiritomb is a Pokemon that hasn't really been seen before in Monotype, but it's surprisingly decent as it provides the team with a Ghost neutrality for the mirror matchup as well as a Dark neutrality to take on Pokemon like Ting-Lu and Krookodile. Palossand's main niche is Stealth Rock, but it's more prone to losing to Dark-type Pokemon, leaving Mimikyu and Flutter Mane to check them.

B Rank

Ceruledge looks cool as shit but is fairly one dimensional compared to the other Pokemon Ghost has to offer. The role it fills has a lot of overlap compared to other Pokemon like Flutter Mane, Mimikyu and Dragapult. Most of the time when I put this Pokemon on a team I think about how much swag it gives the team due to its sick design rather than the fact that it actually is useful. However, I've tried Colbur Berry with Swords Dance + Bitter Blade + Brick Break + Shadow Sneak and it's not entirely bad.


Skeledirge is nice for Unaware to check Pokemon like Volcarona and Mimikyu. However, it can be hard to fit on an offensive type like Ghost because it's just not that great as an anchor. Other defensive staples like Spiritomb and Palossand are more useful than it because they can check Pokemon like Iron Treads and Garchomp. Skeledirge is left with an awkward equilibrium between being purely offensive and defensive, but something with Torch Song doesn't sound bad on paper.

C Rank

Froslass, Polteageist, Rotom, Sableye are all Pokemon found on hyper offense teams. Froslass, Rotom, and Sableye set hazards and screens respectively, while Polteageist is a nice sweeper that's capable of dealing with types like Ground. However, the low ranking is because I don't feel like hyper offense is as good as bulky offense due to the playstyle being so frail and prone to hazards.

D Rank

Drifblim is okay for Defog, but otherwise it sucks.

Here are some nice templates for Ghost teams that I've been exploring/planning on exploring.

1. Bulky Offense

(/) (///)

The 4 S ranked Pokemon in Dragapult + Flutter Mane, Mimikyu, and Brambleghast pretty much provide a solid foundation to take on any type in the metagame. Brambleghast in particular is very nice for holding ground for the team with its hazard manipulation, but it's not bulky enough to provide a solid defensive foundation by itself which is why Palossand or Spiritomb are needed. The last slot can go to offensive Pokemon like Gholdengo, Gengar, Ceruledge, or Skeledirge. This structure should have a good chance of winning against anything, with the main flexibility being in Dragapult's set, Flutter Mane's item, as well as the last slot. Gholdengo is probably the best bet for the last slot thanks to its splashability in terms of covering matchups.

2. Spikes Hyper Offense

(////)

I have not tried out Spikes hyper offense yet, but it seems cool on paper due to Ghost's unique hazard stacking ability. Gholdengo would probably be Air Balloon on this team, with Choice Scarf Memento Flutter Mane or Choice Scarf Destiny Bond Mimikyu with status. Dragapult would probably be Dragon Dance with Metronome or Life Orb with the last slot being depending on what you would like to cover. Sableye seems shaky though and would probably fit better on Brambleghast teams for more defensive backboning as a screens setter.

3. Screens Offense

(//)

Screens hyper offense seems interesting but I haven't tried it yet either. I feel like Brambleghast would be great on this type of team though, since it offers Spikes which are pretty much mandatory in this metagame while using Sableye's screens to serve as an offensive presence when its fragility is blocked. The rest of the team should be fairly based on setup with maybe a Choice Scarf user somewhere. Ceruledge and Goldengo seem like good candidates for the last slot, with Poltegeist also being a decent option to really cteam Ground.

I haven't tried out the other types extensively; I mainly wanted to express my interest on Ghost as a tournament type since it's always been a personal favorite of mine. I'm happy it's still good this generation as it was last generation especially with Flutter Mane balancing out. It would be nice to hear other people's thoughts on what they have been trying out with Ghost and the tier in general.