Tournament PUPL X - Format Discussion

[ishtar]

Hello, PU! With PUPL along the way, the age old question is being asked again, what will our format be?

Last year we had: SV/SV/SV/SS/SM/ORAS/BW/DPP/ADV/Bo3(SV/SS/SM)

We'd love some feedback regarding these slots, particularly ADV and Bo3.

We're planning on having manager singups around the 27th of this month. Thank you so much for helping contribute in this decision!

 

[Hera]

imo there are two options here

option a: exact same format

option b: 5 sv + all team preview old gens (ss-bw) + bo3

would like to note that the purpose of pubd was to give us a more old gen centered tour, so we can have the liberty of cutting some old gens here. i put the cutoff at the team preview gens just so we could have 10 slots but it can be more or less arbitrary.

personally i'd like to see some inclusion of rby cause the rbyyers are very dedicated and it's a fun tier but idk how that could happen without adding all the other old gens as well. i'm also against a potential bo3 old gens slot (rby/gsc/adv) cause rby is usually played bo3 and support for all three of these old gens is pretty hard to find. we could also do the pubd format but that would be pointless.

if i had to choose between these two i'd choose option a, 5 sv games when the tier doesn't really need it is crazy and i would think that would just oversaturate the tier, but i can see it the case for it.

 

[Dj Breloominati♬]

Format is perfectly fine as is, don't need to fix what's not broken.

 

[gulch]

agree format is fine as is, cut adv and i'll cry

would be open to replacing bo3 w another sv though

 

[BigFatMantis]

GSC PU is flames

 

[Aurist]

I'd like to see GSC PU considered for inclusion as a tier that's been one of the most active and involved oldgens tiers in recent time and had highly successful placements in PUBD and ALTPL. Assuming other no preview gens are in I think GSC has a better argument activity wise than multiple other tiers currently in, it's one of the most balanced oldgens tiers we have as well.

 

[DugZa]

I think a similar format to last year is fine; Bo3 should most certainly stay, it always has the most competitive pools and (almost) always gives us the best games. However, I think ADV should be replaced by a fourth SV slot. As mentioned above, the whole point of PUBD was to let all the old gens shine so we should give significantly more priority to CG this PUPL, especially because this is the first PU team tour we would have for the generation with a relatively stable metagame since monthly shifts stopped so I think more SV slots would be ideal to develop CG as much as we can. So the ideal format for me would be something like this:

SV
SV
SV
SV
SS
SM
ORAS
BW
DPP
Bo3

In addition, I don't think GSC should be considered for inclusion in PUPL. GSC PU is a relatively new tier that has a lot of room to be developed, and PUPL should not be the tour used to develop volatile old gens into a viable state when secondary team tours (such as PUBD) and individuals are much more appropriate platforms.

--

Wasn't mentioned as a discussion point on the OP but I also think we need to look at how manager buys work and change how we calculate manager prices. Currently, we base it on just wins from the prior year but I think changing to a formula like RU did this year is much better and gives a more fair pricing. The formula might have to be scaled up/down a bit due to the difference in number of slots but shouldn't be too hard to fix the formula to fit our budget and number of slots.

I also think we should limit manager buys + retains to 3 max prior to the draft (for example, 2 managers buys and 1 retain, or 1 manager buy and 2 retains) to prevent super teams being formed and some managers having basically half of their starters decided before the auction even starts.
Also obviously, people who managed the previous year shouldn't be eligible to be retained regardless.

 

[Akeras]

Can we add gum to the tiers please ?

 

[Aurist]

In addition, I don't think GSC should be considered for inclusion in PUPL. GSC PU is a relatively new tier that has a lot of room to be developed, and PUPL should not be the tour used to develop volatile old gens into a viable state when secondary team tours (such as PUBD) and individuals are much more appropriate platforms.

I don't agree that GSC is particularly volatile or has a lot of room to be developed, it's a tier that has stabilised very fast and requires little to no action in the eyes of the playerbase with the only notable topic being a vague Baton Pass issue that other old gens have been going through anyway. The viable state you speak of, GSC is already in that state. The tier has already centralised enough around its top threats while retaining good fringe options, the best players already have consistent records across multiple tournaments and the tier is stable af. The only thing the tier is lacking right now is an up to date VR and that is due to be updated before PUPL begins (ie at the end of Open which is in top 6 right now).

I think GSC justifies itself more than some other tiers that have been quiet af with little to no development since last pupl, or are in a balance state that the players don't even like in the case of Adv and RBY...

 

[BeeOrSomething]

I would love to see GSC PU included

 

[plznostep]

will be praying for the inclusion of GSC PU we love that tier

 

[dawnbuster]

STINKY PETES RANCH supports the inclusion of GSC PU.

 

[feen]

bo3 as a format is redundant and dumb, considering the rest of the formats are bo1. its just a slot to see marky matchups and also more effort to prep for. kill bo3 and put in another sv or replace with gsc pu (it's a pretty good metagame)

 

[Estarossa]

while i sort of don't support gsc pu inclusion myself if it came down to my (fairly selfish) opinion, its a pretty solid tier that has felt fairly balanced and definitely not volatile a la dugza post etc. feels pretty stable as far as pu oldgens go and has a solid playerbase that won't overlap too much with other slots (other than myself and aurist at least) and got a good crowd reception in bd too. think arguements for / against it should really come down to number of slots and comparisons against a bo3 slot etc than digging into gsc pu because there is no real valid arguement that shits on the tier without shitting on multiple other pu oldgens way before it.

 

[gum]

gsc still feels too new to include in the main pu team tournament, not new as a whole but rather new to the pu community; pubd was obviously a step in the right direction, but if anything rby feels easier to justify adding due to having pubd as well as a pu-hosted tournament. most of the gsc players are rather disconnected from the pu community as a whole, which makes it very different from adv onwards so i don't really get that comparison. bo3 never really hurts to add, u get quality games, usually the best u'll get in the tournament, even if ppl reusing can get a bit boring to watch - but if we're using "fun to watch" as the main metric here, that would disqualify gsc pretty quickly

 

[BeeOrSomething]

gsc still feels too new to include in the main pu team tournament, not new as a whole but rather new to the pu community; pubd was obviously a step in the right direction, but if anything rby feels easier to justify adding due to having pubd as well as a pu-hosted tournament. most of the gsc players are rather disconnected from the pu community as a whole, which makes it very different from adv onwards so i don't really get that comparison. bo3 never really hurts to add, u get quality games, usually the best u'll get in the tournament, even if ppl reusing can get a bit boring to watch - but if we're using "fun to watch" as the main metric here, that would disqualify gsc pretty quickly

rby is just as disconnected from the pu community, arguably more considering that ppl like aurist, estarossa, and LpZ play other pu tiers in addition to gsc. I don't really see why it being new to the community would be a bad thing, if anything gsc being in the main premier league of a tier would help the players actually become more integrated with the community instead of being completely alienated and left to pubd (which people care less about because it's a side tour) and gsc pu open (which is a gsc thing not a pu thing)

 

[BigFatMantis]

I think if the PU community mostly doesn’t want GCU in and would rather focus on more CG that is fair, but a lot of the arguments against GSC at the moment are either extremely poor or just plain ignorant/uninformed.

GSC PU has had a very positive reception in all the team tours it’s been in recently, the comparison to ADV I think is very fair because ADV was in a similar spot a couple years ago, very new tier, positive reception in tours, and then found a place in PUPL. Saying it isn’t “fun to watch” is just a matter of opinion - some people would say it’s significantly more fun to watch than ADV atm. Me personally, I think GSC PU is the most fun GSC tier to watch, but again that’s an opinion but I’d like to point out it’s one that a lot of people share.

At the end of the day if you want to focus on CG, then sure. But that’s the only actual argument in this thread that has any weight against gsc inclusion, and I think we should stop trying to extrapolate non-sensical views erroneously cloaked as truths in an effort to cut a tier we may not personally enjoy, even when there is an abundant playerbase that would be willing to participate.

 

[MrSoup]

Speaking as someone heavily involved with gsc and adv pu:

gscpu has a more active player base by a decent margin. They’re also more committed to the specific gen rather than being more ‘flexible.’ Gscpu is also considered to be more healthy and stable than advpu by their respective playerbases, especially as of recently. I do not say this to compare the two as reason to cut adv and include gsc. My point is that saying gsc is unhealthy/unstable and/or shallow in terms of players is incorrect, especially when these two gens have been compared to each other a lot in this thread.

The point on spectating is inane. I only watch adv/gsc in stuff like spl/uupl/etc. I absolutely cannot stand watching cg. But I also recognize that’s wholly my opinion and preference. I hope that much is obvious.

Gsc should not be included if: the tour is focused on cg, cutting adv dpp bw, etc.

I have not read another compelling reason so it seems to me that it’s more important to figure out the identity of what pupl is, particularly in relation to Pubd.

Re: remove adv and add a fourth sv.
This neither makes the tour ‘cg focused’ or inclusive. It just removes a tier that a lot of time and effort was spent into being included.
Add 4 sv, sure, but add gsc in addition. Either that or make it a true cg focused tour.

 

[SANKE CARP]

GSC PU is flames would love to see it in this tour

 

[Oathkeeper]

I'm all for the format of:

SV
SV
SV
SV
SS
SM
ORAS
BW
DPP
ADV

 

[Monai]

As someone who learned the tier for advpl, I would absolutely love if adv were included and would be hopeful that I get to play again. I think that 3 dedicated slots and Bo3 would give enough spotlight to current Gen, as other pl's like nupl are featuring 4 current Gen games a week as well.

 

[Bouff]

talked about this in the pu discord yesterday so this will just be short and regurgitating, but imo removing adv for sv4 is a mistake. obviously biased here but the playerbase for it has been pretty strong in pupl / pubd / advpl over the past year and it's a fairly balanced tier (for adv lower tier standards anyway lol), most of the games i've seen for it at the top level have been of good quality. 4 sv games a week is already kind of a lot and i don't think having a fifth one will have any positive contribution, both in terms of how competitive the tournament will actually be and in terms of metagame development. most likely the slot will just be a cheap slot who will be fed teams and / or be p inexperienced, so i don't think it's really going to help in any way with what the tour's focus should be.

the only subforum tours ive seen with a 4th cg slot that also includes oldgens is there just for the sake of evening out slots (this is also me saying that rby and gsc shouldn't be included, at least for the rest of this gen), and i think it's just going to end up being a headache during draft planning and the actual tour. this is v buzzword-y so sorry about that but yeah sv4 won't be conducive for a good tournament

e: i wrote this before a lot of the posts on gsc were posted today so this post is probably useless, fwiw if there’s enough support for gsc i don’t mind it at all but on a personal level i liked last years format more, just don’t get rid of adv lol

 

[DiannieRatson]

I'm posting here to show my support for GSC PU. Basically just echoing what others said already. GSC seems being compared to adv and rby not only in terms of the metagame itself but also in its playerbase/community. PUBD already showed the PU community what the metagame looks like and it's nice that there are now some players who are more of involved in cg community to support us. I don't know if y'all remember but I've been doing this since SS is the cg though I suggested a weird bo3 for adv/gsc/rby like 2 years ago just to include all gens but I won't push that now since it seems like GSC as it is has now good support from cg community. I started as SS PU grinder before looking across the old gens PU and saw GSC has a potential but just not given attention.

In terms of the metagame, since it was already played Furretless anyways since ALTPL, and then PUBD has passed then there's GSC PU Open for GSC Slam (when for PU Classic), the current metagame was already explored by the dedicated players and some finding it fun and some are not is just normal since it is subjective but the point is I think there is significant amount of people now that thinks not only playing GSC PU is fun but some also finds it fun. And yeah GSC PU Open reveals the problem with Trappass which was unused in the previous tournaments but that could be addressed as soon as GSC PU Open is over.

Then about those some that says GSC players are disconnected something like gsc players don't add much value to the team because they only focus on their gen, I think that goes both ways. What I mean is, at least personally, GSC PU wasn't given an opportunity to be showcased to the cg community until PUBD became a thing. I already mentioned that I was a cg pu mainer before during the last 2 yrs of SS as cg. And I think I have done expressing much support for the integration of GSC PU to the cg community. I decided not to delve in the issue of slotting 8 players since you know, I would be biased. But slot in terms of adding GSC in the tiers in this year's PUPL, maybe it could be considered to be a 12 slot team tour so nothing gets cut off.

That's all from me ig xD

 

[sasha]

Don't have a huge preference for format but kind of whats been said above, don't fix what isn't broken.

The only thing I wanted to touch on though was I've seen some mention of removing Bo3 because it's too much to prep for and its redundant. There were similar arguments recently in Monotype's Premier League and I just disagree with the sentiment. Bo3 has been a tier for an extremely long time and I feel like if your team is slacking on prepping Bo3 that speaks more to team chemistry than the slot itself. It's the most competitive slot and will remain that way pretty much always outside of like SV1? ig? If you don't want to prep Bo3, don't sign up for it or manage then tbh because the onus in making sure your slots are ready and good to go is your job as a manager, not your players. Part of team chemistry is prepping / building together but realistically players shouldn't be expected to do this, and obviously, they aren't unless people are known for being good supports/builders and are willing to do so. Though I understand most Bo3 players are just tour players being fed teams and they're not prepping themselves which can make prep be a bit more lopsided but idk I just feel like calling Bo3 redundant is kind of weak unless there was some large movement for it to be removed. More than 3 CG slots is boring which is extremely subjective but I think 3 SV+SV in Bo3 is more than enough.

 

[ishtar]

Just wanted to share my thoughts on my ideal format: I believe 3 SV/SS/SM/ORAS/BW/DPP/ADV/BO3 is the best way to go about this PUPL. As much as I appreciate the enthusiasm for tiers below ADV, I believe that the BO3 format showcases a lot more talent and hype than its being given credit right now. SS and SM both experienced a lot of development through PUBD and, while there's always worry regarding reusing, I believe that seeing the best players/pilots against each other is always gonna result in high quality, high stakes and extremely entertaining games every week. It also serves as a midground to those that want more SV, though that's more of a secondary effect rather than the point of the slot. I think letting go of what's canonically resulted in some of the highest quality games across generations in the tour that's focused not only on CG, but also on its very important previous gens deserves to be showcased at this level at least till the next generation forces us to make a new decision regarding the future of BO3.

In regards to GSC, I appreciate the support that the tier has gotten and I think that it will be a lot more exciting coming next PUBD, but I do not think that it should have a spot in PUPL at this point in time. When we started planning out PUBD, one of our main concerns was being able to fill in the RBY and GSC slots, we decided that 6 teams instead of 8 should be safe and that we might extend to 8 if there were enough decent signups for all tiers, this did not happen and GSC ended up being the slot with the most difficult pool to fill in. Some of names mentioned earlier that would be interested in playing GSC would also be considered by managers to slot into a different tier that isn't GSC, making the pool significantly shallower.

On the point of ADV having a smaller pool than GSC, even if that was true (I have no idea if that is the case), ADV has had a lot of development in recent years and has become a beloved metagame that managed to succeed last PUPL. This does not mean that we shouldn't extend our sights further and ignore GSC and RBY, or that GSC hasn't had relevant breakthroughs and been successful in its own right, but as it stands, removing ADV is out of the equation, due to the amount of current available slots and the success of Bo3 makes the removal of it equally unlikely.

It also goes without saying that extending past 10 slots would result in a lot of technical headaches, pools that lack more consistent players due to them being spread around different tiers (an issue that already happened in PUBD) and much bigger question marks in regards to the extra slot that would be necessary to fill in to complete the 12, and the dilution of the point of the tournament compared to PUBD.

TLDR: Read, lazy!