Gen 6 Rayquaza

[PISTOLERO]

Except espeed is half the reason sd rayq is good. It also has great utility in checking lowered mons (darkrai, xerneas etc) like I brought up earlier. Without espeed, you get revenged by scarfers and things that are naturally faster which is something you really don't want, so espeed is kinda necessary on SD sets (which we established to be the best set pretty much). My list would look like this:


1. Earthquake: 8.5 9/10 useful. (most/all sets should run this)

2. Draco Meteor: 6.5/10 useful.

3. Outrage / Dragon Claw: 6 4/10 useful. (this is 90% outclassed by its other moves)

4. V-Create: 3 5/10 useful. (see below)

5. Fire Blast: 5 3/10 useful. (sd+vcreate does the same, if not then eq does)

6. Aqua Tail: 6 3/10 useful. (sd+eq does the same, if not then draco does)

7. Swords Dance: 7 9/10 useful. (half the reason rayq is good at all; sd is its best set)

8. Extremespeed:. 4 8/10 useful. (sd is the best set, this move is close to mandatory. also viable on dd)

Let's discuss move choices on Dragon Dance Rayquaza (and i guess to a lesser extent Rayquaza in general)

 

[MMII]

ray's last two slots are just situational filler choices and both espeed and DD have uses to be justified filler options over extra coverage

lol at the chest beating

 

[Shivaru]

Hey, I've been a lurker on this site since the old school R/S meta. This is my first serious post on the site, and I'm not 100% sure if this is the right place for this, but here goes. I've always appreciated Smogon's tiering system. It more or less allows for each pokemon in the game to be played in some sort of competitive meta. Until recently, this has changed. When Mega Rayquaza was introduced to ubers, many players assumed that he could not hold an item. During this time, several notable players compared M Ray and M Salamence as though they were almost equal. In fact, some said that the primary difference between them was that one was a Kyogre check while the other was an Arceus check. In terms of stats and typing, M Salamence is both faster and bulkier (defensively) than M Ray. On top of this, M Salamence and M Rayquaza had very similar damage output. It wasn't until M Rayquaza could hold items that he truly became an over powered force in the Ubers metagame.This leads me to believe that we could have handled M Rayquaza differently. Rayquaza was essentially allowed to use Dragon Ascent, without the ability to M evolve. Why can't Rayquaza be allowed to M evolve while he is not holding an item? You can run the calculations and see that M Salamence and M Ray are similar pokemon, with similar power levels, that would play very similar roles in the ubers meta. I don't understand why M Salamence is OK, but an itemless M Ray is not OK. Also, I don't believe that outright banning legends sets a good precedent for Ubers. Again, I apologize if this is not the right place to post this, and I hope that this makes some sort of sense. I also hope that some will take the time to consider this. Feedback is greatly appreciated!

 

[Gloating]

I think it's because of the complex nature of banning Mega Rayquaza + item. It's more difficult to enforce because banning the use of an item would mean that normal Rayquaza can't use an item either, well it can but it would be all "if you're going to Mega evolve Rayquaza, don't have an item but if you're not you can use an item" Smogon tries to stay away from complex bans otherwise we would have things like Speed Boost less Blaziken in OU, etc.

I guess the real question here becomes; "What is worse, rendering a pokemon unusable in any competitive tier or a complex ban." This is just my 2 cents.

This was bound to happen at some point. What if we got a Pokemon that only had Moody as it's ability way before Mega Rayquaza? it would just be banned from any competitive tier including Ubers.

 

[EmblemLord]

People here are generally not a fan of complex bans, and that is exactly what you're suggesting would be. Consider Rayquaza holding Lum Berry or something that can be used in battle. If these somehow got triggered and left Ray itemless, would they now be able to mega evolve? They technically were holding an item and got the full benefit of one.

It was simply easier to ban Mega-Ray as a whole than place artificial restrictions to make it more balanced.

 

[Shivaru]

I think it's because of the complex nature of banning Mega Rayquaza + item. It's more difficult to enforce because banning the use of an item would mean that normal Rayquaza can't use an item either, well it can but it would be all "if you're going to Mega evolve Rayquaza, don't have an item but if you're not you can use an item" Smogon tries to stay away from complex bans otherwise we would have things like Speed Boost less Blaziken in OU, etc.

I know what you mean, complex bans can get nasty; however I don't think that the clause "Rayquaza cannot M evolve while holding an item" is a bad way to solve the issue. Alternatively, "Rayquaza cannot have the move Dragon Ascent while holding an item" is could solve the problem. From a programming stand point, I think it could be done pretty easily, and I think the good outweighs the bad in the long run. The player would essentially be using M Ray the way he was during the initial ORAS ubers playtesting on Showdown. I guess the real question here becomes; "What is worse, rendering a pokemon unusable in any competitive tier or a complex ban." This is just my 2 cents.

 

[Mega Mew]

Normally, Mega Evolutions without a stone would make no sense, but since Rayquaza just eats its stone, then GF wins. They tried something new, but just ended up making one of the most broken Pokemon in the game... Good job GF.

 

[Shivaru]

I think it's because of the complex nature of banning Mega Rayquaza + item. It's more difficult to enforce because banning the use of an item would mean that normal Rayquaza can't use an item either, well it can but it would be all "if you're going to Mega evolve Rayquaza, don't have an item but if you're not you can use an item" Smogon tries to stay away from complex bans otherwise we would have things like Speed Boost less Blaziken in OU, etc.



This was bound to happen at some point. What if we got a Pokemon that only had Moody as it's ability way before Mega Rayquaza? it would just be banned from any competitive tier including Ubers.

This is true. I hope that the designers at gamefreak would realize that creating a pokemon with Moody as it's only ability would be a ridiculous idea. Still, I think this situation is a bit different. I think if there are real ways to solve the problem, aside from outright banning something (especially from ubers) that they should at least be considered. I don't want to go off on too much of a tangent, but I hope that makes sense.

 

[Prinz]

I'd slash somewhere Surf in the op on the mixed set as well as in the notable moves, it just hits PDon tho, but since it's prolly the best mon in the tier, I think it's a niche that deserves a mention.

 

[iceking1152]

 

[PoweredByRevenge]

So i have seen a lot of people requesting for a slash of Surf. In the first place Surf really isn't that good on Rayquaza, for a couple of reasons, one of them is that Surf would have to replace Draco Meteor on the mixed set, which is huge since Draco Meteor is pretty much necessary on this set, being a very good and powerful move as well as hitting physical walls for a lot of damage. The second reason is that Surf only hits PDon, it is a very big threat but it just is not worth the moveslot. Also Earthquake hits many more things other than PDon as well as PDon itself, so it is really unecessary to run Surf.

 

[Karxrida]

If Surf OHKOs Specially Defensive Primal Groudon that's good enough reason to slash it, because P-Don is an important target. Can't calc it right now though cause I'm on my phone.

 

[PoweredByRevenge]

I have just stated plenty of reasons why Surf is not required on Rayquaza's moveset, please read above.

 

[Karxrida]

I have just stated plenty of reasons why Surf is not required on Rayquaza's moveset, please read above.

I'm not exactly a super-knowledgable Ubers player, but which walls do you speak off? Besides, if you partner up Ray with Xerneas you don't need to nuke Dragons or Lando-T, plus OHKOing Primal Don for it is kind of a big deal so you don't need to rely on Focus Miss to kill it.

 

[SuperWumbology]

The thing is with Surf is that it's effectiveness against PDon is comparable to EQ, which 2HKOs PDon anyway, so pairing it up with Xern means that it can KO PDon from that range with Moonblast. I can completely understand that OHKOing PDon is a big deal, but you're sacrificing a very important moveslot (coverage or ESpeed on mixed just to hit something harder when one of your standard coverage moves does the same thing against more targets), which is invaluable for Rayquaza's effectiveness against offense as a whole. All the other moves in MixRay's arsenal can affect multiple targets at the same time, while Surf only deals with one target that EQ already takes down if it tries to switch in. Ofc, I'm talking about MixRay, if you use Surf on anything else, you actually need help (Waterfall is the better choice for SD or CB, but even then it's super niche).

 

[Prinz]

I agree that EQ is better than Surf in most cases on Rayquaza since the lattet has the niche to hit just PDon. It's a big niche I guess, but Surf's target is just one. In my eyes it still deserves a mention because OHKOing PDon is huge and so slash it with EQ should be fine but I can see the reasons why people don't want to slash it (EQ is more consistent) so I guess that every decision about that will work well.

 

[$teele]

So, I haven't seen Iron Head mentioned on this thread yet, and that kind of confuses me. Yes Iron Head doesn't have as good of coverage as EQ, but EQ doesn't do this:

252 Atk Rayquaza Iron Head vs. 104 HP / 32 Def Xerneas: 196-232 (46.7 - 55.3%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO (Jolly, not Adamant [outspeeds Modest Xerneas], w/ No LO.)

252 Atk Rayquaza Earthquake vs. 104 HP / 32 Def Xerneas: 123-145 (29.3 - 34.6%) -- 7.1% chance to 3HKO

Dragon Ascent and V-Create also 2 hit, but they cost a couple stat drops. I know Iron Head isn't the best option for Rayquazza, but I feel it at least deserves a mention on a D-Dance/SD set. :/

 

[Gloating]

You literally only hit Xerneas which DA hits harder... it's not worth running just to avoid the stat drops. Xerneas doesn't like coming in on Rayquaza anyway.

 

[Prinz]

I would add to what Gloating said, which is completely right, that using Iron Head you also lose some important coverage (if you use it instead of EQ / V-Create you are getting walled mainly by Steel-type mons which is not really good).

 

[Toshhy]

I like to run surf on ray to get the ko on pdon but some pdon live not sure if what spread they running.

If someone could calc negative nature ray surf against pdon with an optimal spread would be good.

The thing is with Surf is that it's effectiveness against PDon is comparable to EQ, which 2HKOs PDon anyway, so pairing it up with Xern means that it can KO PDon from that range with Moonblast. I can completely understand that OHKOing PDon is a big deal, but you're sacrificing a very important moveslot (coverage or ESpeed on mixed just to hit something harder when one of your standard coverage moves does the same thing against more targets), which is invaluable for Rayquaza's effectiveness against offense as a whole. All the other moves in MixRay's arsenal can affect multiple targets at the same time, while Surf only deals with one target that EQ already takes down if it tries to switch in. Ofc, I'm talking about MixRay, if you use Surf on anything else, you actually need help (Waterfall is the better choice for SD or CB, but even then it's super niche).

This doesnt make sense bc if negative nature ray can indeed ohko pdon with surf that it merits some usage for that reason.

A ohko is better than a 2hko. Ray doesnt get damage if it ohko pdon.

 

[Lemonade]

0- SpA Life Orb Rayquaza Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Primal Groudon: 333-395 (82.4 - 97.7%)
0- SpA Life Orb Rayquaza Surf vs. 104 HP / 96 SpD Primal Groudon: 426-504 (116 - 137.3%)
http://gamut-was-taken.github.io/

 

[accidental_racist]

0- SpA Life Orb Rayquaza Surf vs. 252 HP / 196 SpD Groudon: 385-458 (95.2 - 113.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
That's the one most analysis suggest (252 hp / 56+ / 196).

0- SpA Life Orb Rayquaza Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Groudon: 333-395 (82.4 - 97.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Max spdef/ def.

Not sure if i messed up, but w/e

Ok so i was beaten by pomman by 30 minutes ):

 

[SuperWumbology]

Ok, I think you're not seeing my point. Earthquake literally offers the one thing that Surf / Waterfall hits and so much more, and the facts are that Surf / Waterfall overlaps in targets with EQ, which is solely PDon. You see, moves such as Surf / Waterfall in a vacuum offer an opportunity for something that cannot break past a specific Pokemon the chance to without interfering in terms of movelots. Take Tyrantrum in RU for example, who literally cannot have a 100% chance to break through Gligar without Ice Fang, but since none of the other coverage moves it offers can hit Gligar hard other than Outrage, Ice Fang is a very acceptable choice, as it allows Tyrantrum to get past one of the tier's most potent support Pokemon. However, Rayquaza has Earthquake, which allows it to bypass Primal Groudon while hitting the Steel-types that resist Dragon Ascent, which means that it literally does the same job as Surf or Waterfall in addition to actually helping out Rayquaza with the things that can take its main nuke. Yes, Primal Groudon is a fantastic Pokemon, and yes, Surf or Waterfall can OHKO PDon, but if you have Earthquake (which means PDon can't even switch into you in the first place), you are essentially wasting a moveslot on a one-minded solution to take down something you already offensively check in the first place. And then, if you do slap in Surf or Waterfall on Ray, you essentially lost an important moveslot to help you effectively deal with a large portion of the offensive or defensive metagame (any of Fire Blast or EQ on Mixed sets, ESpeed on both SD, CB and Mixed, and Dragon Dance on SD), which is something that Rayquaza does not appreciate in the slightest. Also, using SURF on an SD set is literally counter-intuitive to SD Ray's purpose, which is to wallbreak with PHYSICAL MOVES. I can completely understand the slight effectiveness that running Waterfall on an SD set can merit, but fucking SURF? That's completely asinine considering Rayquaza can immediately OHKO defensive PDon variants with a +2 Waterfall while not hitting like a pansy on anything else.

tl;dr pls don't use Surf on Rayquaza pls (though if there is even the slightest of niches, use Waterfall on CB and SD instead)

 

[Toshhy]

I dont suggest to use surf in place of eq but to use alongside in lik an all out attackig set.

But actually it completey past me that Ray learn waterfall. Waterfall might be better on CB ray if someone could calc it to see if it ohko standard pdon would be good.

 

[SuperWumbology]

I dont suggest to use surf in place of eq but to use alongside in lik an all out attackig set.

But actually it completey past me that Ray learn waterfall. Waterfall might be better on CB ray if someone could calc it to see if it ohko standard pdon would be good.

I don't think you're getting the point of my post. I'm saying that EQ is a better option overall against PDon with Surf, and to not run it at all. Mixed Ray hits PDon hard enough with the first 3 recommended moves (Draco, EQ, and Dragon Ascent), SD likes having Extremespeed or DD over it completely, and CB can tolerate it at the cost of a very powerful Extremespeed. Using Surf or Waterfall over EQ is counter intuitive in the first place, so running the two together is absolutely useless. I know that OHKOing PDon is awesome and all, but that is the only thing Surf does. It literally doesn't offer anything else in terms of utility, while EQ does the same job Surf does. I'm saying that Surf is, in Rayquaza's case, an inferior EQ, and having 2-3 moves that deal with PDon with the latter (Surf) not offering any coverage whatsoever is not a good situation when teambuilding.