Other Tiers RBY Draft Discussion Thread

[NotVeryCake]

(Logo Coming Soon)
RBY DRAFT
Approved by Teh
​

Welcome to the RBY Draft thread. Here we will discuss the RBY Draft tier.

Thread Rules​

• Do not ask basic questions here, go to the Simple Question Simple Answer thread for that.
• No one-liners, contribute to the discussion at hand.
• Posts should be related to Draft and not deviate from it.

Since this tier is entirely unplayed and is only getting its first (probable) inclusion in RBYOMPL, we need to flesh out exactly what we are going to do for this tier's ruleset. Here are a couple of important kickoff discussion questions we need to answer here, though additional points are welcome:

•  How do we decide which proposals are the best one and come to a conclusion of what RBY Draft should be? A special council? RBYOMPL managers? A vote between likely RBYOMPL Draft starters? or what do we do if none of the above?​
• What format will we be using for this tier? The standard Draft format is using 90 points to draft a total of 8 Pokemon, shall we just go ahead with that format or do we want to change it in any sort of way? Potential changes could include changing the total amount of Pokemon to draft or changing the amount of points players get to draft these Pokemon?​
• And last but not least, how much shall each Pokemon cost?​

Pinging all current extremely reputable RBY Draft signups for OMPL as well as managers, your input would be very much appreciated.

Pings

Hayburner Mana TG2513 Bohrier Zpice King Billu Soda Eesti Theycallmephil gastlies Tree69420 ButtGallon THE_CHUNGLER Amaranth Maris Bonibell Melbelle SaDiSTiCNarwhal Quarante8 Acetylaldehyde

 

[NotVeryCake]

How do we decide which proposals are the best ones and come to a conclusion of what RBY Draft should be? A special council? RBYOMPL managers? A vote between potential RBYOMPL Draft starters? or what do we do if none of the above?​

I personally feel like decisions should be handled by a council made up of potential RBY Draft players, especially regarding pricing of individual Pokemon.

• What format will we be using for this tier? The standard Draft format is using 90 points to draft a total of 8 Pokemon, shall we just go ahead with that format or do we want to change it in any sort of way? Potential changes could include changing the total amount of Pokemon to draft or changing the amount of points players get to draft these Pokemon?​

I feel as if the current format with 8 Pokemon and 90 points to draft is ideal. Some may argue that drafting more than 8 Pokemon would be better, but I don't think RBY has enough fully evolved Pokemon / decent NFEs to be doing that; I think simply we would run out of decent Pokemon to Draft, especially considering OMPL will have 6 starter slots

And last but not least, how much shall each Pokemon cost?​

My personal proposal for how much each individual Pokemon should cost is along the lines is this image below:

Each tier encompasses a range of points as I frankly could not possibly do individual points for every Pokemon. For example: Pokemon in Tier 1 may be in the range of 0-3 points points, Pokemon in Tier 2 between 4-7 points, Pokemon in Tier 3 between 8-15 points, and so on up until we get to really high prices for the most expensive Pokemon.

and for the top two specifically, when I say expensive I mean expensive, something like 40 points for either of Starmie / Chansey, these two Pokemon are incredibly versatile in a tier like Draft and invalidate well over half of the game with their movepools, stat spreads, and access to recovery. The one who decides to buy either of these Pokemon should be prepared to draft plenty of other weak Pokemon to make up for their strength.

 

[Quarante8]

Hello.
I might write down a longer post later but I still wanted to put some thoughts out there in case I give up on that some time down the line.
Starmie and Chansey should both either be banned or be ludicrously expensive as you said. I believe tauros and zam are the next two followed by egg and jynx somewhere below. Everything else on the tier 5 is good but significantly worse.

Before I do a very long post about prices, I dont really have the time or motivation to fully price everything, especially this is very experimental, so I'd like for the host team to give an example draft board (cuz though I mostly agree on the Tiers shown, without a price there is not much to discuss). Having a tentative board as soon as possible even if it has to be refined would be ideal (so we can get discussions going about it asap).
Thank you for making this post and tagging, very good effort

Cheers

 

[Bohrier]

My take

1. Chans should defo be banned way too op. Mie is good moreso cuz of its speed than insane bulk so I'm sure there'll be ways to deal with it sooner or later in a game,problem is the moveset options though, so maybe pricing starmie at 25ish is good. The power imbalance in rby is pretty crazy so the pricing will obviously be extremely different to something like distortion Eo or maison
2. Imo hosts should decide it, manager vote has never been ideal and just mickeys down to what managers think is advantageous and not what would be the most fair or fun. I'm sure hosts have more experience than us anyways. Player decision is flawed too cuz obv managers will be friends with players.
3. Exeggutor seems incredible in draft tbh, it will outspeed more mons per team, hit harder on avg, and while a well played egg can take a 2f1 in ou, feels it can even take a 3.5f1 in draft. Something to consider too, if you build around this thing with proper ice checks and damage sinks it can carry you. Maybe warrants to be alongside say bull jynx whatevs

Again I'm not sure where I'm standing at all but that's where I am.

 

[ButtGallon]

My take

1. 8 mons 90 pts works for adv Dpp etc, doubt it works for rby--unless ofc it's 2 pools of 4 teams which sounds much better to me, 8 seems like too much imo tho cake said otherwise, let's see
2. Chans should defo be banned way too op. Mie is good moreso cuz of its speed than insane bulk so I'm sure there'll be ways to deal with it sooner or later in a game,problem is the moveset options though, so maybe pricing starmie at 25ish is good. The power imbalance in rby is pretty crazy so the pricing will obviously be extremely different to something like distortion Eo or maison
3. Imo hosts should decide it, manager vote has never been ideal and just mickeys down to what managers think is advantageous and not what would be the most fair or fun. I'm sure hosts have more experience than us anyways. Player decision is flawed too cuz obv managers will be friends with players.
4. Exeggutor seems incredible in draft tbh, it will outspeed more mons per team, hit harder on avg, and while a well played egg can take a 2f1 in ou, feels it can even take a 3.5f1 in draft. Something to consider too, if you build around this thing with proper ice checks and damage sinks it can carry you. Maybe warrants to be alongside say bull jynx whatevs

Again I'm not sure where I'm standing at all but that's where I am.

I'm not the person anyone would want setting draft prices or anything (I'm strictly a LTs fella so OU interactions are a bit of a blind spot for me), but a lot of the details here sound a bit off.

2) I would think chansey/starmie would both be quite busted, and even alakazam to an extent. Though zam has like no physical bulk (snorlax hyper beam has a chance to ohko while starmie takes 70% maximum) so it may be easier to muscle through zam. I'm inclined to agree that chansey is worse though, because it can more comfortably avoid getting paralyzed due to immunity to body slam para. If chansey can play the softboiled stall game with tauros, it can play the softboiled stall game against pretty much any physical attacker without the ability to boost. Starmie seems like it'll have a harder time switching in due to body slam para risks, but I still wouldn't be opposed to banning both chansey & starmie. The downside of potentially banning one mon too many is worth the upside of avoiding a format where one team has an absurd overwhelming advantage and we don't realize it until after the draft plays out.

3) No offense to the hosts, and apologies to them if I'm wrong here, but I don't recognize them as having ever played RBY— certainly not the low tiers where most of these mons actually live. If the two of them unilaterally decide prices, we're going to end up with a REALLY strange looking pricelist. It seems really tough to come up with an equitable way to decide prices, but I don't hate the idea of a group of qualified voters where we then average out the proposed prices. Trying to get a bunch of RBYers to agree about the minutiae of pricing seems impossible if it's like an open forum, but something similar to VR submissions where everyone makes their individual case and then it gets averaged seems like it'd probably end up with something reasonable. And tbh, if the end result a bit weird, it's not the end of the world. Everyone will be working with the same list, so a drafter that can recognize what's "underpriced" will have another layer of skill expression to work with. The first year of a format like this is going to be a learning experience no matter how you slice it, and as long as a banlist is decided in advance, it seems like you'll end up with a format that's at least good. Maybe not *great* yet, but good.

4) Would exeggutor really be that broken here? Sleep powder+boom is always going to have the potential to go 2 for 1, but I don't see it being much crazier here than in OU. The speed tier part especially seems off— Exeggutor only outspeeds 12 fully evolved mons in the game, and most of them already have a presence in OU. Snorlax/Chansey/Rhydon/Slowbro/Golem are all things that are reasonable to see in OU, and exeggutor outspeeds all of them. Most of the mons that are getting added to the pool here are going to be faster than eggy, not slower. And while eggy psychic does hit really hard, there are plenty of high-special mons with high BP stab attacks that are faster than it, and eggy has really bad coverage to fight opposing psychic types outside of killing itself. I think it'll be really good, but going more than 2 for 1 seems uncommon imo

 

[Teh]

Why is draft being added to RBYOMPL when nobody knows what it's going to even look like? I thought there was something planned when it was included as one of the formats. If we don't know even know the basics (like prices) then I don't think its ready to be included.

 

[ButtGallon]

It is kind of absurd that it was added with zero publicly-available plan for how it would be run, especially as a "stretch goal" where it might not even be added until the last minute where there's no time to iron out the details. It could probably work in OMPL if needed, but at this point it would be a real slapdash job— I wouldn't be opposed to breaking draft off into its own individual tournament so it's not impacting a teamtour full of established formats.

I get that this is mickey mouse premier league, but I'm sure hosts would agree that picking a format with no established ruleset and no plan to decide on a ruleset was a terrible planning decision. Now our hands are forced to either throw something together at the last minute or replace the tier entirely, neither of which are great options

 

[Sabelette]

mfw i make a not completely terrible draft board and put it out for people after some testing and it gets chucked out for no reason to be replaced by this thread where snorlax and charizard are in the same tier

someone go bring that back and let the current low tier leaders improve it, GOATlies can do it

 

[PHB11677]

mfw i make a not completely terrible draft board and put it out for people after some testing and it gets chucked out for no reason to be replaced by this thread where snorlax and charizard are in the same tier

someone go bring that back and let the current low tier leaders improve it, GOATlies can do it

Where? I can't find any other threads about draft

 

[NotVeryCake]

Why is draft being added to RBYOMPL when nobody knows what it's going to even look like? I thought there was something planned when it was included as one of the formats. If we don't know even know the basics (like prices) then I don't think its ready to be included.

It is kind of absurd that it was added with zero publicly-available plan for how it would be run, especially as a "stretch goal" where it might not even be added until the last minute where there's no time to iron out the details. It could probably work in OMPL if needed, but at this point it would be a real slapdash job— I wouldn't be opposed to breaking draft off into its own individual tournament so it's not impacting a teamtour full of established formats.

I get that this is mickey mouse premier league, but I'm sure hosts would agree that picking a format with no established ruleset and no plan to decide on a ruleset was a terrible planning decision. Now our hands are forced to either throw something together at the last minute or replace the tier entirely, neither of which are great options

This is the teamtour to test tiers. There is very little stakes if it goes wrong and if it does go wrong we know not to try this again. Reminder as well many of the other tiers here also get incredibly little play and don't have very established metas. The only real play a tier like RBY 1v1 has gotten really is in this tour; last edition. If RBY 1v1 proved an extremely terrible tier, not much would have been lost, RBYOMPL would have ran the same last year, and it would have been cut for this edition, but it wasn't a bad tier, and so it added substance to the tier. RBY Draft has very well the chance to be by far the best and most competitive tier in the tour, as well as spurring other RBY Draft tours from this tour if it goes well.

We have well over a week until signups close, that is plenty of time to get a solid draft list down until the tour starts, especially since I think most of us can agree on most things except for the Draft List, which doesn't seem terribly hard to work out when there's not that many fully evolved / decent NFE Pokemon in RBY to begin with.

Also; this tier already has one of the best signup pools in the tour, there was no pushback for RBY Draft's potential inclusion when the Tier Discussion thread was up outside of the worry it would not get sufficient or good enough sign up numbers. It has got those signups, so cutting it now seems like a complete non-option knowing that.

 

[ButtGallon]

This is the teamtour to test tiers. There is very little stakes if it goes wrong and if it does go wrong we know not to try this again. Reminder as well many of the other tiers here also get incredibly little play and don't have very established metas. The only real play a tier like RBY 1v1 has gotten really is in this tour; last edition. If RBY 1v1 proved an extremely terrible tier, not much would have been lost, RBYOMPL would have ran the same last year, and it would have been cut for this edition, but it wasn't a bad tier.

We have well over a week until signups close, that is plenty of time to get a solid draft list down until the tour starts, especially since I think most of us can agree on most things except for the Draft List, which doesn't seem terribly hard to work out when there's not that many fully evolved / decent NFE Pokemon in RBY to begin with.

Also; this tier already has one of the best signup pools in the tour, there was no pushback for RBY Draft's potential inclusion when the Tier Discussion thread was up outside of the worry it would not get sufficient or good enough sign up numbers. It hasn't, so cutting it now seems like a complete non-option knowing that.

I get the sentiment, my only worry is that underdeveloped formats like 1v1 or STABmons can't be unbalanced. If the tier turns out to suck, then oh well you just slog through it and remove it next year. Draft is unique in that if mons are priced wrong, or the banlist is wrong, or the drafting format itself is wrong (there are talks of multidraft vs single draft for example, and as a non-draft ball knower I don't know the ramifications of either), you end up with one team that has a huge advantage in a slot for the entirety of the teamtour with no way to rebalance. Like if we leave starmie/chansey/zam in and then find out week 1 that they're all busted, then that's one team that gets to go 5-1 for free just because the format itself was flawed. There is the argument that it rewards the players who can spot the busted stuff pre-draft and draft accordingly, but some things are out of the control of even a perfect drafter. Get placed 4th in the drafting order and everyone before you scoops up chansey/starmie/zam? Well that kinda sucks, and it's possible we find out that the expected counterplay to those 3 doesn't work very well and you're stuck going 1-5 due to largely no fault of your own.

I do agree that it would be really awkward to pull it at this stage given the signups— if you replace it with something else, now there's less than a week for people to sign up for that tier. What about the existing signups? Does everyone need to re-sign up to reflect their interest/locking out for the new tier? There are tons of folks signed up for the tour, I'd hate to see them decide "if we can't include draft then we won't include stadium rentals either and just run it with the base 6". It's just a really rough situation no matter how you slice it. Personally, I think there's enough upside to just sending it with a potentially scuffed format, even given the risks, but I can absolutely see people (justifiably) complaining about it 2 weeks into the tournament, which should have been avoided by planning this out WAY in advance. Ultimately, I recognize that this not a serious tour— it's for funsies. If draft does get in and it turns out to be an unbalanced mess, I'm not going to lose any sleep over getting snubbed as a result when we all signed up for mickey mouse premier league knowing that draft was on the list and not knowing anything about how it'd be run

 

[PHB11677]

Where? I can't find any other threads about draft

This might've unintentionally come off as rude (mb). I would really like to see this board tho, since draft has a lot of support and it would stink if the format ended up sucking

 

[PHB11677]

Found it (was only in discord), posting it here so that everyone has easy access
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Omubr8WwOAXh1zTCEWTd9cvRK4XoxLrAJcAROKRi_Xw/edit?usp=sharing

 

[NotVeryCake]

Found it (was only in discord), posting it here so that everyone has easy access
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Omubr8WwOAXh1zTCEWTd9cvRK4XoxLrAJcAROKRi_Xw/edit?usp=sharing

This is a good base to work off of in terms of rule set but the Draft List itself is quite... flawed to say the least.

It's way, way too OU centric and feels like it hasn't took into consideration any of the ergonomics of Draft. It really doesn't encourage you to experiment with "lesser Pokemon" due to the good Pokemon being so cheap and makes it so whoever goes first / second and gets the big Pokemons has a huge advantage because a lot of the super strong stuff is really cheap. It looks as if the Pokemon were just sorted based on their respective tier (OU, UU, NU) / their placement on the RBY OU VR. The lower stuff (things between like 0-12 points) isn't too bad but definitely needs work and community input. (I liked the suggestion of THE_CHUNGLER where people submit VRs and it's aggregated) many of the things above 12 points are... not good. The biggest example of this is Starmie and Chansey for 18 points, these Pokemon quite literally invalidate half of the Pokemon in the game and who ever gets them have such an advantage.

 

[Soda Eesti]

Wont be long as i dont have much to say. I could write giant paragraphs but no one wants to read that.

1. Do Multi-Draft with 2 pools of 3. Please and ty.
2. Use sabelette's board as a base with a few changes. Most notably lump tauros in with Zam/Egg/Lax IMO (feel free to disagree, i know we all want tauros to be hella expensive,) and crank up the prices for chansey and starmie. I actually want them banned tbh, but this is fine.
3. Ban Agility+Partial Trapping, and Overprice tentacruel. Otherwise ban PT and fix prices accordingly.
4. Spread out the points a bit more so you actually take a pretty significant hit when buying the OU guys, or lower the amount of points we are given. Not by much, but something to encourage using shitmons a bit more, yk?
5. Not a draft gal but i think the rankings look fine as a whole??? There could definitely be things spread throughout better but it doesnt seem to egregious.