Other Tiers RBY Random Battles Hub

[Plague von Karma]

So I looked through the code and noticed this.

},
kakuna: {
randomBattleMoves: ["poisonsting", "stringshot", "harden"],
tier: "NFE",
},

String Shot and Tackle are incompatible with Harden on Kakuna. It's legal on Metapod because Yellow made it learn Harden at L7, but this never happened for Kakuna. The incompatibility is shown here and here. As a result, Kakuna is just worse Weedle. Slower, worse offensive stats, and defensive stats that don't mean anything.

I took it upon myself to do a Gen 1 Random Battle to find the set in use, and I happened to get it first try.

So while Metapod is perfectly fine here...

Kakuna is not.

It even shows up as illegal on the validator!

Given this post bought up other legality issues, I really think this format should have some kind of hackcheck when randomizing the moves...

--

I also think the movesets could be improved for lower-tier Pokemon, and I noticed there was a lack of partial trapping moves. Like, Cloyster doesn't even have Clamp. Rapidash also doesn't have Fire Spin, which is a notable part of its gameplan. Hell, Pinsir and Onix don't even have Bind in their pools, which makes the latter a strictly worse Golem in every sense.

screenshot and code

},
cloyster: {
randomBattleMoves: ["surf", "blizzard", "explosion"],
exclusiveMoves: ["hyperbeam", "hyperbeam", "doubleedge"],
tier: "OU",
},

I also noticed Magikarp doesn't have Splash while looking at the sets more. Pretty sure it should have that to win PP Stall in those absurd situations.

screenshot

Diglett has Body Slam and Slash which is pretty redundant. Looking at the code, this was the only possible set. Dugtrio tends to run Sand-Attack and stuff sometimes, so maybe that could be thrown in?

screenshot

And a lot of other miscellaneous improvements and thoughts;

• Persian shouldn't have Thunder imo. I don't think it uses that in RBY OU or anywhere really. Could be wrong. I think Screech + Hyper Beam should be somewhere since that's sometimes used.
• Moltres should absolutely have Fire Spin whenever it has Agility. There is no reason for it not to.
• Dragonite should have AgiliWrap.
• Aerodactyl could probably have Wing Attack or something somewhere? The set it has rn kinda sux.
• Porygon should have Reflect imo
• Charizard shouldn't have Body Slam and Slash in the same set. Body Slam is for SD, Slash is for getting rid of the SD slot for Fire Spin while maintaining immediate power.
• Why do Butterfree and Venonat have Psywave? Surely there are better options?
• Pidgeot can probably have Substitute removed
• Given the level difference, should Raichu have Seismic Toss? Feels suboptimal compared to the other available attacks.
• Magnemite shouldn't have Thunderbolt and Thunder in the same set. I also think Supersonic could probably be chucked into the movepool.
• I feel like Scyther should have Double-Edge and Slash randomized together. The current set kind of contradicts itself, as SD will only benefit Hyper Beam.
• Electabuzz could possibly have Body Slam and/or Submission thrown in somewhere? Not sure.
• Snorlax could be very much improved. Amnesia + Blizzard should be a combo thing at most, and the rest you could possibly randomize with the Physical Attacker and Reflect sets on the dex.
• Articuno should have Double-Edge somewhere.
• Maybe throw some Toxic + Leech Seed stuff somewhere? Idk.

 

[CrapAtRBY]

Partial trapping moves are intentionally absent from Gen1 Rand bats as they can make them very dull

Movesets probably do need updating though, the meta has changed a lot since they were made

 

[phoopes]

Partial trapping moves are intentionally absent from Gen1 Rand bats as they can make them very dull

Can I ask when/why this decision was made? Moves like Wrap are a big part of Gen 1 and I don't think they should be taken out of randbats just because they're considered "boring." Unless I'm just uninformed and there was some big community vote on this I think that partial trapping moves should be allowed. Like yeah, you're going to get screwed by it every now and then but like that's just the nature of RandBats and part of what makes it fun IMO.

 

[Alpha Male Psyduck]

Can I ask when/why this decision was made? Moves like Wrap are a big part of Gen 1 and I don't think they should be taken out of randbats just because they're considered "boring." Unless I'm just uninformed and there was some big community vote on this I think that partial trapping moves should be allowed. Like yeah, you're going to get screwed by it every now and then but like that's just the nature of RandBats and part of what makes it fun IMO.

I play a lot of Gen 1 Randoms and I'd definitely be against introducing Agil/Wrap to sets. The beauty of Gen 1 RandBats is all sorts of mons can shine that wouldn't normally get a chance to. I've seen Meowth, Pinsir or even Kabuto take out a Mewtwo tons of times. Even if you get traditionally "bad" mons you can usually create a strategy to counter your opponent. Against Agil/Wrap though there is no strategy, your only strategy is pray you have a ghost type or pray that your opponent misses. I don't think it's in the spirit of Gen 1 RandBats to have a mon like Agil/Wrap Dragonite have such power over the game.

 

[phoopes]

The above was about movesets but I'd like to talk about levels a bit for balancing purposes.

Right now the "UU" 'mons are set to Level 74. Which I think is fine probably for the 'mons that are actually UU. But now that we have an NU tier that's has gained some popularity after it was the RoA Spotlight last month, maybe we could look at adjusting levels and raising them for NU 'mons? Or at least 'mons that are sub-NU, it's kinda whack that Vileplume is Level 74 with the rest of the UU 'mons, just as one example.

 

[Plague von Karma]

I just got some fixes to movesets merged.

• Harden will no longer appear on Kakuna, as it's incompatible with String Shot and Poison Sting as outlined above.
• Dragon Rage will no longer appear on Magikarp, as it's impossible to obtain under international mechanics. It's only obtainable via a Japanese event, Tamamushi Magikarp, which you can't trade into English games.

As an addendum, after I made the Pull Request, I noticed you can't actually delete moves in Generation 1. As a result, Magikarp's Tackle cannot be on its own without glitches. The Immortal added Splash to its possible moves as a result.

EDIT: JP moves as a whole have been removed from RBY Int Formats on PS Main as well.

 

[Irpachuza]

Thanks Plague for the review of the format, it is long due and not high on priorities of whole generation reviews on randbats, since another gens have more urgent bad sets. But lemme throw my 5 cents on some of your suggestions:

Diglett has Body Slam and Slash which is pretty redundant. Looking at the code, this was the only possible set. Dugtrio tends to run Sand-Attack and stuff sometimes, so maybe that could be thrown in?

BSlam is really needed since Para is important in the format, specially bslaming on the switch in is a really useful strat. Slash is really needed too if nothing else is available, specially to hit mewtwo and other amnesia users.

Persian shouldn't have Thunder imo. I don't think it uses that in RBY OU or anywhere really. Could be wrong. I think Screech + Hyper Beam should be somewhere since that's sometimes used.

Persian abuses one of the best spe in the meta, allowing for sometimes neccesary strong critical hit coverage moves. Water types are really fast and hard to 2hko, so thunder can come in clutch. I´m not familiar with the set rolling code in depth enough, but i believe adding Screech over thunder can give us stuff like tbolt-bubble-slash-screech. It may be played around since iirc essentialMove is always there while 1 or 2 exclusiveMoves are forced (All of this unless comboMove is rolled and has 4 moves in it,). Anyhow it might be fine keeping tbolt x2 instead of thunder, but Screech may be too convoluted and persian wants to go all attacker most of the times.

• Moltres should absolutely have Fire Spin whenever it has Agility. There is no reason for it not to.
• Dragonite should have AgiliWrap.

I have to agree with AMP there. Partial Trapping moves may dullify too much a format that´s already pretty straightforward. Tiers have agility mons as answer to these partial trappers, but speed tiers are very different here, and people may roll teams that have absolutely no answer to trappers, which can become annoying and is an issue often found in Gen1CC.

Aerodactyl could probably have Wing Attack or something somewhere? The set it has rn kinda sux.

Aerodactyl does suck. Dunno if wing attack 35bp is the answer, although does the same damage in 4 turns as Sky attack with 140 bp in 2 turns and i´d see it there instead if people wanted it. Maybe Supersonic and/or Dragon Rage may come in clutch.

Porygon should have Reflect imo

I could see that working if there is a way for it only rolling both Twave and Reflect, since Recover is forced. Still pory is already one of the top mons on the format as it is.

Charizard shouldn't have Body Slam and Slash in the same set. Body Slam is for SD, Slash is for getting rid of the SD slot for Fire Spin while maintaining immediate power.

Already gave my op about bslam and slash having very different utilities, and about partial trapping moves.

Why do Butterfree and Venonat have Psywave? Surely there are better options?

I believe it may have been an answer to set upers. I don´t have a better suggestion tho, i´d be neutral on the removal of them, since they do like having stunspore/sleeppowder instead.

Pidgeot can probably have Substitute removed

Maybe it was for sky attack? Dunno if its good enough. The birbs are mostly chippers and slp fodder so eh on them.

Given the level difference, should Raichu have Seismic Toss? Feels suboptimal compared to the other available attacks.

It´s really niche, agreed there, its usually bad on raichu.

Magnemite shouldn't have Thunderbolt and Thunder in the same set. I also think Supersonic could probably be chucked into the movepool.

Agreed on supersonic, i´d add that mimic is a coinflip and toxic is very very situational for a mon that usually won´t be on late game (imo). Thunder is fine for more power when needed.

I feel like Scyther should have Double-Edge and Slash randomized together. The current set kind of contradicts itself, as SD will only benefit Hyper Beam.

SD has been underwhleming with Slash as an option, but i would never want Slash removed from scyther, as it´s one of the best late game answers to set upers. SD + HBeam for mid and late game works fine.

Electabuzz could possibly have Body Slam and/or Submission thrown in somewhere? Not sure.

Submission is not very strong, but i´d see bslam there, its a better option to hit ground switch ins than psychic

Snorlax could be very much improved. Amnesia + Blizzard should be a combo thing at most, and the rest you could possibly randomize with the Physical Attacker and Reflect sets on the dex.

Although comboMoves allow fixed sets to be rolled, so far its made for only 1 for each mon, and its already given to lax as ["earthquake", "hyperbeam", "bodyslam", "selfdestruct"] which is the set with no Blizzard. Personally i believe that the spirit of randbats is having a movepool available and a code that lets you roll enough variations of that movepool that are viable, and i dont see a problem on having blizzard by its own on lax. Reflect could be a cool addition tho, if it rejects amnesia or smth to avoid only one damaging attack rolling. Anyhow, if we really consider Snorlax suboptimal, it will need a complete rebuild of the movepool and/or its moves categorization.

Articuno should have Double-Edge somewhere.

It is better than mimic for sure.

Maybe throw some Toxic + Leech Seed stuff somewhere? Idk.

Ngl i tought about this, its a good strat. But also i believe last time i tought of this some post (or some answer to me) explained why it wouldnt work that good in rands. Sincerely i can´t remember what was it, and i´d like to see it work in rands

 

[phoopes]

why does Exeggutor have Egg Bomb lol

 

[Jorgen]

In standard RBY, Egg Bomb can be somewhat useful as a Normal move that, unlike Double-Edge, doesn't shorten your Explosion timer with recoil. It isn't completely ridiculous, although I don't disagree that it's dubious.

Its real value probably comes from being a fun semi-signature move, apart from Chansey who can't use it meaningfully.

 

[Davy Green]

How do you all feel about the power level of level 88 Abra in Gen 1 random battles? Do you feel it's deserving of a slight nerf?
Right now it's incredibly potent at cleaning up weakened teams and represents a lot of value.

I thought it would be a good idea to also add a replay to illustrate my point. This replay is from a gen 1 random battle tournament that was hosted by the gen 1 random battles discord. My opponent played well, but I could afford to make safe plays every time because I had Abra in the back. The Abra comes into action on turn 19, turn 22, turn 28-29, turn 34-35 and turn 37-39.
Abra claims 4 KOs and also severely damages the opposing Ditto.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1randombattle-551043 (This replay is posted with permission of my friend Ice Yazu)

 

[Teh]

Not to potentially beat a dead horse, but why can't Wrap-like moves be added to randbats? I might be in the minority here but I think they would actually improve the format. Even if you don't personally like them, they're an integral part of RBY and would buff some not-so-great mons (Arbok line, Victreebell line, Onix, etc.)

The only mon that I could see this being potentially problematic on is Tentacruel, but I don't think it would impossible to deal with. Wrap doesn't even need to be mandatory either.

 

[royzin]

Not to potentially beat a dead horse, but why can't Wrap-like moves be added to randbats? I might be in the minority here but I think they would actually improve the format. Even if you don't personally like them, they're an integral part of RBY and would buff some not-so-great mons (Arbok line, Victreebell line, Onix, etc.)

The only mon that I could see this being potentially problematic on is Tentacruel, but I don't think it would impossible to deal with. Wrap doesn't even need to be mandatory either.

I’ve had teams where my fastest mon is like a Magneton and tentacruel is 40 speed higher than that so yea it would be impossible to handle with some teams lol.

 

[chub]

Not to potentially beat a dead horse, but why can't Wrap-like moves be added to randbats? I might be in the minority here but I think they would actually improve the format. Even if you don't personally like them, they're an integral part of RBY and would buff some not-so-great mons (Arbok line, Victreebell line, Onix, etc.)

The only mon that I could see this being potentially problematic on is Tentacruel, but I don't think it would impossible to deal with. Wrap doesn't even need to be mandatory either.

fire spin could be problematic with the higher levels of fire types. they already outspeed most of the game, and are generally the best wallbreakers in the game due to their high levels and access to fireblast. The fire typing is already considered a menace in the rands community in general.

 

[Teh]

I’ve had teams where my fastest mon is like a Magneton and tentacruel is 40 speed higher than that so yea it would be impossible to handle with some teams lol.

fire spin could be problematic with the higher levels of fire types. they already outspeed most of the game, and are generally the best wallbreakers in the game due to their high levels and access to fireblast. The fire typing is already considered a menace in the rands community in general.

Then why not add it on a case-by-case basis? If something would be too strong with Wrap then it could just not be given to it. Right now there are lot of mons that are completely trash that would improve a lot with it added to their movepools. I don't see why it needs to be removed entirely.

 

[chub]

Then why not add it on a case-by-case basis? If something would be too strong with Wrap then it could just not be given to it. Right now there are lot of mons that are completely trash that would improve a lot with it added to their movepools. I don't see why it needs to be removed entirely.

this could be a solution, however i fear the people in charge of these changes would deem it to complex and arbitrary but imo its something to consider.

 

[Rage]

Not to potentially beat a dead horse, but why can't Wrap-like moves be added to randbats? I might be in the minority here but I think they would actually improve the format. Even if you don't personally like them, they're an integral part of RBY and would buff some not-so-great mons (Arbok line, Victreebell line, Onix, etc.)

The only mon that I could see this being potentially problematic on is Tentacruel, but I don't think it would impossible to deal with. Wrap doesn't even need to be mandatory either.

You'd be better off in the Past Gen rands discussion thread, for starters, and secondly, it's seen as uncounterable in rands so we have no plans of adding it.