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Resource RBY Simple Questions & Simple Answers Thread
- Thread starter phoopes
- Start date
I dont know if this is the right place to ask about meta developments, but as someone who only knows about rby ou in passing and reading through the VR posts, I noticed that the old "trade turn 1 twave" fell out of favor. My question is what caused this shift?
Short answer: sending Sing Chansey on the T1 twave is extremely powerful, granting you easy sleep as Chansey can shrug off multiple Psychics from Alakazam/Starmie and then block the opponent's sleep move with ease
Long answer: I made a post about this here
Is there much of a reason to use Acid? Everything that gets it also gets Wrap (except Vileplume), which can theoretically help them break through them more easily or (if my understanding is correct) reapply a speed drop. 60 power after STAB is really weak though, and a lot of things that get Acid and Wrap also get Swords Dance, and Poison is a pretty piss offense typing. It seems like it would be an interesting move, and it has some good qualities, but it doesn't seem like it'd get a whole lot done. Maybe you could stack it with Swords Dance for the boosted power for its damage and after Defense drops?
There isn't much of a reason, the move is unfortunately low value compared to what other moves the pokemon that get it have. Also pokemon can just switch out if they get defence dropped and otherwise it does little to no damage.
In terms of Poison-types that actually get acid, for the most part, you are correct in that after STAB, it becomes a 60 BP move. What makes Acid so awful is how it is weaker to even non STAB moves in neutral settings, like Earthquake, Hyper Beam, and even Body Slam, which have 100, 120, and 80 BP respectively. Arbok is perhaps the most notable user of the move (and it doesn’t even run Acid in the first place, opting for Glare + Wrap + Earthquake + Body Slam), but the fact that it only possibly 5HKOes Mime showcases its pitiful damage output:
Arbok Acid vs. Mr. Mime: 51-61 (18 - 21.5%) -- possible 5HKO
Arbok Earthquake vs. Mr. Mime: 85-100 (30 - 35.3%) -- 21.6% chance to 3HKO
Arbok Body Slam vs. Mr. Mime: 72-85 (25.4 - 30%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Arbok Acid vs. Charizard: 46-55 (12.8 - 15.3%) -- possible 7HKO
Arbok Body Slam vs. Charizard: 65-77 (18.1 - 21.4%) -- possible 5HKO
Arbok Acid vs. Blastoise: 40-48 (11 - 13.2%) -- possible 8HKO
Arbok Body Slam vs. Blastoise: 56-66 (15.5 - 18.2%) -- possible 6HKO
Arbok Acid vs. Magikarp: 57-67 (23.4 - 27.5%) -- 72.5% chance to 4HKO
Arbok Body Slam vs. Magikarp: 79-93 (32.5 - 38.2%) -- 97.9% chance to 3HKO
Arbok Earthquake vs. Mr. Mime: 85-100 (30 - 35.3%) -- 21.6% chance to 3HKO
Arbok Body Slam vs. Mr. Mime: 72-85 (25.4 - 30%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Arbok Acid vs. Charizard: 46-55 (12.8 - 15.3%) -- possible 7HKO
Arbok Body Slam vs. Charizard: 65-77 (18.1 - 21.4%) -- possible 5HKO
Arbok Acid vs. Blastoise: 40-48 (11 - 13.2%) -- possible 8HKO
Arbok Body Slam vs. Blastoise: 56-66 (15.5 - 18.2%) -- possible 6HKO
Arbok Acid vs. Magikarp: 57-67 (23.4 - 27.5%) -- 72.5% chance to 4HKO
Arbok Body Slam vs. Magikarp: 79-93 (32.5 - 38.2%) -- 97.9% chance to 3HKO
Arbok Acid vs. Tangela: 73-86 (21.9 - 25.8%) -- 1.4% chance to 4HKO
Arbok Body Slam vs. Tangela: 51-60 (15.3 - 18%) -- possible 6HKO
Arbok Hyper Beam vs. Tangela: 88-104 (26.4 - 31.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Arbok Acid vs. Parasect: 187-220 (57.8 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Arbok Body Slam vs. Tangela: 51-60 (15.3 - 18%) -- possible 6HKO
Arbok Hyper Beam vs. Tangela: 88-104 (26.4 - 31.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Arbok Acid vs. Parasect: 187-220 (57.8 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
From looking at all these calcs, i think it’s safe to say that Earthquake and Hyper Beam (or maybe Body Slam/Rock Slide) are better options than Acid.
I think you're neglecting to mention that Acid becomes stronger the more you spam it, it has a 33% Defense drop chance (which is the same chance as a Psychic special drop iirc) which is probably more a selling poing than any other part of the move. Acid's effect, in theory:
-Reduces the #HKO number
-Can force switches
-Reapplies the Speed drop from paralysis (I think?)
-Weakens enemies into range of a stronger move, such as Hyper Beam
It's a lot of "in theory" sort of stuff though, and it's a random chance, but it's still an important part of the move's functionality, and I think it's worth considering in your argument
I do agree with the fact that it has piss damage, but several hit KOs will become smaller-amount number KOs as I said
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The fully evolved Pokémon that get Acid are Arbok, Tentacruel, Vileplume, and Victreebel.
Arbok’s whole niche is Glare+Wrap. That’s two moveslots. From there Acid has to compete with Body Slam, Hyper Beam, Earthquake, and Rock Slide, all of which are more powerful and have better coverage. Could you use Acid? Sure. But it’s hard to justify when looking at the positives of the other moves.
Tentacruel has much better options than Acid. Most common set is Surf, Blizzard, Wrap, Rest, though sometimes people throw in Swords Dance or Hyper Beam. Those moves are all simply better than Acid, you should never use Acid on Tentacruel.
Victreebel gets Double Powders, Swords Dance, Wrap, Razor Leaf, Body Slam, Hyper Beam… it’s really no contest here with Acid.
Vileplume sucks even in NU so I know nothing about using it, but my assumption is that you want to run Double Powders or a Swords Dance set. Again, making it hard to justify Acid. Though Vileplume might be your best bet.
tl:dr Acid may be an underexplored move I guess? But everything that gets it just has better options
Arbok’s whole niche is Glare+Wrap. That’s two moveslots. From there Acid has to compete with Body Slam, Hyper Beam, Earthquake, and Rock Slide, all of which are more powerful and have better coverage. Could you use Acid? Sure. But it’s hard to justify when looking at the positives of the other moves.
Tentacruel has much better options than Acid. Most common set is Surf, Blizzard, Wrap, Rest, though sometimes people throw in Swords Dance or Hyper Beam. Those moves are all simply better than Acid, you should never use Acid on Tentacruel.
Victreebel gets Double Powders, Swords Dance, Wrap, Razor Leaf, Body Slam, Hyper Beam… it’s really no contest here with Acid.
Vileplume sucks even in NU so I know nothing about using it, but my assumption is that you want to run Double Powders or a Swords Dance set. Again, making it hard to justify Acid. Though Vileplume might be your best bet.
tl:dr Acid may be an underexplored move I guess? But everything that gets it just has better options
Acid is not underexplored, the niche you're describing is basically 10% damage + 33% of the time you get a bonus Leer tacked on. Leer is not a good move, and the damage is negligible on basically everything. There are a lot of moves that look cute but just kinda suck, this is one of them
A few things actually have Leer and Tail Whip suggested on their Smogdex entries as odd options (Most notably Rhydon)
EDIT: Replaced Jolteon with Rhydon
My name is in the credits of that Rhydon analysis, I know, it still doesn't mean Acid is in any shape or form viable in any non-OM RBY tier
The closest Acid gets to viable is on Arbok in OU. When playing Dragonite + Victreebel + Arbok teams in the past, I would often find my Arbok needing to KO Exeggutor. Earthquake is resisted, Rock Slide is weak, and Hyper Beam can be predicted and exploited, so I started using Acid as a higher damage attack to finish off Exeggutor without Hyper Beam's punishable recharge turn. However, Acid is still a niche move on a very niche Pokemon (at best) in OU, and there hasn't even been any theoretical viable niches in other tiers to my knowledge.
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Why are 1hkos banned in gen 1?
Considering the limitations of 1hkos (speed requirement, type immunities, 30% accuracy w/no way to improve it), the fact that "RNG" is an already undeniable factor in the format (FRZ, special drops, body slam paras, and over 20% crits being common), and no original ban by Nintendo in their official Nintendo cup tournaments. Why are these moves banned now?
it seems like it might be because they were abusable in other gens before the battle sims were made and when the sims were made a kind of blanket ruleset was applied to every gen.
I've been asking myself this recently, and haven't thought of any solid justification yet, so I thought I would bring it up here to see what other people thought or had to say.
if you think I make a good point help me out, like the post, sign my petition (only joking), thanks!
emma edit - moved to SQSA
Considering the limitations of 1hkos (speed requirement, type immunities, 30% accuracy w/no way to improve it), the fact that "RNG" is an already undeniable factor in the format (FRZ, special drops, body slam paras, and over 20% crits being common), and no original ban by Nintendo in their official Nintendo cup tournaments. Why are these moves banned now?
it seems like it might be because they were abusable in other gens before the battle sims were made and when the sims were made a kind of blanket ruleset was applied to every gen.
I've been asking myself this recently, and haven't thought of any solid justification yet, so I thought I would bring it up here to see what other people thought or had to say.
if you think I make a good point help me out, like the post, sign my petition (only joking), thanks!
emma edit - moved to SQSA
Honestly even if they weren't uncompetitive OHKO moves are just disgustingly strong. Snorlax is easily tanky enough to use multiple Fissures and just kinda fuckin kill things it has no business killing, Lapras same thing but with Horn Drill. 30% accuracy might seem low but it's a lot when the reward is a whole kill.
E: I've been informed they only work on slower pokemon so they are actually not -that- broken in RBY it seems. Definitely broken in future gens and I guess the ban was just made uniform with RBY
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I don't think people want to deal with 10% freeze chance, which can practically determine the outcome of a game, but it isn't banned. What's the criteria for determining if something is "uncompetitive"?
Has anyone actually played a few games with OHKO moves? Maybe they only need to be banned on specific pokemon? I'm curious as to how they would change the game, I'm sure the meta could adapt to accommodate OHKO moves.
we cant ban freeze or 1/256 miss.
How many times do we have to repeat this fact ?
How many times do we have to repeat this fact ?
Then why is it in the sim? Counter and other moves have been modded, I don't think changing the freeze mechanic would be too different. But I know that's a whole different conversation.
Something subjective (like what constitutes as 'uncompetitive' and which moves should be modded) isn't a fact at all. It's determined by consensus, and consensus can change.
I'd like to play a few games with OHKO moves enabled, is there a way to do that?
You can do this by challenging another Showdown user to a [Gen 1] Custom Game.
Nah it's not subjective.
If we ban freeze or 1/256 we just dont play rby at all and there Is no way to mod that.
Also , freeze isnt uncompetitive and isnt as strong as ohko mooves. Even if you make an ohko clause ( like only one ohko sucesful in a match ) it would be pretty stupid.
Rby is pretty balanced atm and just ban or add something would break the stability we all know.
1/256 misses are as uncompetitive as regular miss.
If we ban freeze or 1/256 we just dont play rby at all and there Is no way to mod that.
Also , freeze isnt uncompetitive and isnt as strong as ohko mooves. Even if you make an ohko clause ( like only one ohko sucesful in a match ) it would be pretty stupid.
Rby is pretty balanced atm and just ban or add something would break the stability we all know.
1/256 misses are as uncompetitive as regular miss.
well thanks for the comment, I didn't know if anyone would even reply, but that seems like a bit of a brush off to me. I'm not just saying that rng exist so 1hkos are acceptable, I'm kind of trying to point out that rng is part of competitive strategy in gen, and I guess I don't understand why 1hkos seem to be an exception.
-just the first example of an "rng opportunitie"TM* (ha that's what I'll call them) that came to my head is Alakazam v. Tauros.
zam can't 2shot (0.8%chance) without special drop or crit, but because they are both realistic possibilities that 2 shot happens, and it has to be factored into option selection. that is just an example but situations like these are inseparable from gameplay.
"not-that-broken" sounds like a supporter to me welcome to the team lol
Worth noting, considering OHKO moves automatically fail against opponents with higher speed, that the only OU mon with >60 speed and an OHKO move is Tauros, and the notion that somebody would drop coverage on Tauros in order to fish for a 30% OK seems absolutely ludicrous. The notion that the current metagame has less RNG from the 10% freeze on ice moves people are using anyway vs a 30% that nobody would ever use seems like nonsense.
Like, it seems entirely reasonable to say that you want to allow freeze and keep the ban on OHKOs because it's the only thing you know, but the argument that the determination is based on a sober assessment of relative RNG seems to be obviously wrong.
Like, it seems entirely reasonable to say that you want to allow freeze and keep the ban on OHKOs because it's the only thing you know, but the argument that the determination is based on a sober assessment of relative RNG seems to be obviously wrong.
Let's take a look at the Tiering Policy Framework.
Tiering Policy Framework said:
This is the Simple Questions Simple Answers thread. The simple question has been answered. There is no need to discuss further in this thread; please do not continue a useless discussion.
I find it very unlikely that OHKO bans are ever unbanned in RBY. If you look like to challenge the conventional wisdom that has been in place for as long as I know, perhaps you can send a group DM to the Tiering Administration and RBY Council -- but please put in effort containing relevant examples, calculations, and logic.
hey, I think that's a good idea, a 1 1hko clause, sounds nice too.
-okay I just want to say that this isn't about whether other things should be banned, that's not my argument.
but it seems appropriate to ask why was a limit acceptable on FRZ and sleep but not 1hkos? what about fissure for example is busted when its probably best used by Charizard or dugtrio?
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Yes, unparalyzed Snorlax could hit paralyzed Chansey with Fissure. OHKO moves are based on the current Speed of both Pokemon. Which means any Pokemon with Agility and a OHKO move (such as Rapidash, Dragonite or Seaking) can hit with their OHKO moves after boosting and becoming faster than any Pokemon in RBY.