Tournaments RBYPL V - Format Discussion

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Host Team: emma, TBD, TBD
In this thread, feel free to discuss anything regarding RBYPL before it begins. This is meant to be a place for players to voice their opinions and help us decide some key things regarding RBYPL. The major point of discussion is the Format. Retains and Manager pricing will likely be unchanged from last year, but feel free to discuss that as well.

1. Teams & Slots
  • Last year's format was 6 teams with 10 slots. We are looking to keep 6 teams with 8 or 10 slots, depending on feedback from last year.
  • Last year's format was 5x RBY OU / 1x RBY Ubers / 1x RBY UU / 1x RBY NU / 1x RBY PU / 1x RBY Random Battles. We will be doing a minimum 50% RBY OU slots. Lower Tiers will not receive more than one slot.​
  • No Tier is guaranteed besides RBY OU. Additionally, tier symmetry and aesthetics are not important. As an example, RBY UU can be removed while keeping RBY NU and RBY PU​
2. Schedule
Projected Schedule

Sunday September 1st - Format Discussion Thread
Sunday September 8th - Manager Signups
Sunday September 15th - Player Signups
Friday September 27th / Saturday September 29th / Sunday September 29th - Live Auction
Monday September 30th - Week 1
 
1. didn’t like belgian pro, tour felt like it dragged forever (9 weeks for a 6 teamer). just do 6 teams 4 playoffs (better option) or 8 teams.

2. i didn’t mind 5 ou but it’s probably too much and 4 ou seems better. bo5 ou was meh could go either way but leaning cut it

3. by default for 2, cut pu or rands (preference for cutting pu)
 
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As much as I hate to admit it, I think we need to go back to 8 slots and cut PU and an OU. PU is in a pretty garbage state right now (saying this as someone on the PU council) and I can't think of a single person who played PU last year who actually wants to play it this year. I don't think the pool will be good enough this year to justify including it.

Rands should absolutely be included this year, it was a super competitive slot and was a lot of fun to watch. If we still want to keep 10 slots I think replacing PU for a second Rands spot would be a good option too.
 
a few of my thoughts on the format:

- belgian format last year felt like it dragged a bit, the two teams in finals fighting each other 3 times across the tournament is also a lot - 6 teams 3 playoffs or 8 teams 4 playoffs would work best imo, the bye week in the 6 team variant for the top seed is unideal but my team practically had a bye week before finals with the belgian format last edition too.

- in terms of # of teams and tiers, it's quite hard to tell what the playerbase is able to support - 6 teams 10 slots and 8 teams 8 slots seems like the right amount to me right now but this is obviously subject to change with the number of signups etc.

- 10 slots should clearly be 5x OU 1x Ubers UU NU PU Rands, 8 slots should be 4x OU 1x Ubers UU NU and last slot for Rands or PU - personally I think PU should always be the last slot, it's well connected to UU and NU. PU tends to see a lot of optimisation around RBYPL, even if tier enjoyment is lower at the moment this doesn't mean the tier can't evolve and become more enjoyable/competitive during the tour with the highest stakes that PU is a part of. Rands is quite disconnected from the rest of RBY and the channel in teamcords just has very little activity. I'd still prefer not to cut it if possible so 6 teams 10 slots is my pick but I would understand 8 teams 8 slots as well.

- The OU bo5 slot was a huge success last year imo, should absolutely be kept.

- I'd like to propose bo5 in UU NU (and PU if it makes it) this time around, these are volatile tiers with fast paced games making them very well suited to bo5 imo. I've been running the NU Invitational with bo5 and feedback seems generally positive. If the Ubers playerbase wants bo5 they should also be allowed I think, I just didn't want to include them here because it's a tier with comparatively less high impact rng and longer games.
 
This might come off as hypocritical because I'm one of the people who played PU last year and isn't so interested in playing this year, but I don't think we should cut PU.

Part of the reason why this tier is in such a bad state right now is because it has not seen any kind of serious high-level play compared to other lowtiers. UU and NU are both in their respective classics, and they have both had representation in ALTPL. UU also has had two teamtours (UUFPL and UUBD) while NU has had NUCL and an ongoing invitational. PU has had... PUBD and that's it, which was all the way back in January. The reason why PU seems to be dying is because it isn't included in any fucking tours in the first place, so cutting it from yet another tour to let it die quicker doesnt make a whole lot of sense imo.

Also I don't really think PU is in a meta standstill. Last RBYPL ended with a "Big 6" meta with Lead Arcanine, Seaking, and Fearow destroying everything. Stuff in current PU like Magneton and Agility Porygon practically didn't exist last RBYPL. Even though we've basically had no tours this entire year the fact that some new stuff was still found does make me optimistic that this tier will see some development during RBYPL.

Regarding the "this tier is gonna change a ton when NU makes a VR soon so whats the point of pushing it further" argument. I feel like this is a pretty bad faith argument since it suggests we shouldn't try to develop lowtiers since the upcoming VR is gonna change it anyway. Nobody was doing this with NU even though we knew the UU VR was gonna shake up the tier. This might be our last chance to use mons like Arcanine, Fearow, and Gastly in PU, and I think this meta should be given a proper final tour instead of letting it PU die months before the NU VR shifts.

(also nicole's message dropped while i was typing this lol i fully support Bo5 for UU/NU/PU, teambuilding isn't too difficult for these tiers and the battles are very quick so it won't take nearly as long as an OU Bo5)
 
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Please do not do bo5 for UU or at the very least make it optional if it goes through for bo5 lower tiers. Cant speak for other formats or peoples personal enjoyment of them but possible 5 games of this format specifically in one sitting is going to feel very dreadful to play despite the ease of building.
 
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Keep PU and all the other low tiers, preferably make them BO5, I don’t care if it’s 8 or 10 slots but cutting PU will not make the tier any better compared to having older players train some newer ones and developing the tier

Rands in would be good but not at the expense of developing PU further thanks

Also belgian format dragged at the end, I would rather have a 5 week tour with a bye or just top 4 make playoffs than go for over 2 months only to get what was effectively a bye anyway
 
I don’t know if I will sign up and I don’t really want to comment on tier inclusion.

I want to give two cents on the format. As someone part of a team eliminated after 5 weeks last year, it was amazing. I cannot speak for those on the other end who played nine weeks, but getting to drop four weeks early when you realistically have no shot was a fantastic aspect of the format. I thought it was great, and it allowed for no real byes. I also imagine 9 weeks is what you’d play in a 8 team tour so I don’t see the issue there.

again, not sure if I will participate this year, but the Belgian format definitely was the biggest draw for me.
 
Whatever is done, please do not cut Randbats or force players to play Bo5 UU. Randsbats was an amazing format last year, the quality of the slot was mostly great, second only in quality to the bo5 OU slot. The Randbats playerbase enjoyed playing in PL, and the spectators enjoyed watching the games. "Low teamcord engagement" means peanuts compared to the other points of what makes Randbats in PL so great. By cutting it, you are also excluding an entire insanely talented community who otherwise do not really interact with the rest of the RBY community, while if you cut RBY PU or UU, there are very few if not zero competant players getting excluded from PL as the LT tiers's playerbase usually overlaps quite heavily with each other. As for my second point, I believe Bo5 UU to be a terrible idea that would kill off any sense of enjoyment if made mandatory or anything thats not just an option thats available (not the standard). UU is fine in small bursts but a Bo5 just gets incredibly tiring incredibly quickly due to how awful a state the tier is in and how it quickly wears on you.
 
5 ou was too many and i dont agree with "we will be doing 50% OU minimum" that sounds a little crazy to me

OU5 was a decent way to bring in new people I suppose, but it's a pretty extreme strain on managers and players to help bring those people up to speed, and the games in that slot were pretty low quality

i think a 3 OU / 5 lowtiers (ubers uu nu pu rands) tournament with 8 teams would make a lot of sense - maybe 8 slots for some of these lowtiers will be stretching the playerbases a little thin, but i think it's a downside that you can put up with.

- the number of OU games will be good (3x8=24 down a little bit from last year's 5x6=30, which is good, because that number was too high). 4 OU x 8 teams would be going even higher (32 ou starting slots) which is actual insanity given that this was the worst part of last year's format
- you get 8 teams instead of any of the 6 team formats (it's clear that no 6-team solution will unite the playerbase, all the options will leave someone unhappy, 8 team will not do that)
- the downside of not finding enough players for lowtiers is pretty nebulous, clearly it's possible to find 8 people to start in UPL/UUPL/etc and I get that there'll be some overlap but still it should be sustainable overall

but overall i really cannot stress enough how 30 OU slots was too many last year, please let's cut that number down

also @ "dont make UU Bo5 it will be awful to play" maybe consider that UU is the problem in that equation and not Bo5? if you hate playing UU that much dont sign up for it lol. UU Bo5 seems fine to me, it's not like the games will be physically exhausting the whole set will be over in like 25 minutes anyway. that's an early game in rby ou, you all should be able to handle that
 
Regarding the format, I was a big fan of the Belgian format. My impression was the the "bye" week the Articunos ended up having last year was the exception rather than the rule, and the format is generally good at ensuring that's not the case. 9 weeks also seems fine for me, it's the normal duration of an 8-team team tournament (7 week round robin + 2 weeks of playoffs) so if, for instance, we were to up the ante to 8 teams we would get the exact same tournament length. I was a big fan of how neck and neck stage 1 was up until the very last moment last year, the format worked very well in that regard, whereas this was a big problem in, for example, ALTPL, where we followed the more traditional format. So, in my opinion, we should keep the Belgian format.

In terms of # of players and tiers, I think we could definitely fill up 30 slots with competent OU players - I've been of this opinion since RBY Invitational Play-ins. Assuming proportional levels of sign-ups to RBYPL as compared to interest in play-ins, I don't think it would be a problem. In my opinion keeping the format would be the best way to go. However, what we can (and probably should) do is lock-in the format amongst managers and hosts once we have a clearer picture of what signups look like. It's what we did last year, and it was ultimately the correct decision because we had a completely different picture of things after 1 week of player signups.

I am firmly against 8 teams. While I do think it's possible to start 6 players in each lower tier, because of overlap, 8 players seems extremely ambitious to me. Assuming the 50/50 distribution, 6x10 means drafting 30 OU slots and 30 lower tier slots with 12 subs (for a total of 72 players) and 8x10 means 40 OU slots, 40 lower tier slots and 16 subs (for a total of 96 players). I think we can all agree the latter is just not attainable. 8x8 is of course a possibility, since it means drafting 32 OU slots, 32 lower tier slots and 16 subs (for a total of 80 players), but that would mean cut either PU or Rands. In my opinion we should keep the 6 team format from last year.

If we collectively agree that 8x8 is the best format, then I don't think we should do 3x5, not because of symmetry, but because I think one of the greatest appeals of RBYPL is letting players that traditionally play other gens try RBY OU, and up and coming players have their shot in a team tournament. If that were to be the case then I'd definitely do 4x OU slots and we'd have to pick another tier to remove, which in my opinion should be done once we have a clearer picture of signups, just like I said before.

Regarding Bo5 in OU, it should absolutely be kept. From what I could gauge, the majority of top players prefers bo5 to bo3. And that is especially true for the ones who are likely to play in this tournament. Out of all, this is the matter I have the most firm stance on out of all, Bo5 OU should DEFINITELY be kept.

Lastly, I am also a firm proponent that UU, NU and PU should be bo5. Teambuilding is not difficult in these tiers and games are quick. There's no reason to not make them bo5, it brings the duration of each set up on par with Ubers/OU and helps mitigate RNG issues. I think we should still allow Ubers players to gentleman's agreement on bo3 vs bo5, with the default being bo3, but like it was said before, Ubers games tend to drag longer and team building is arguably harder. And while we're at it, might as well throw this agreement in for the remaining OU slots too. I could be convinced to make the remaining lower tiers be a gentleman's agreement instead, but the default should certainly be bo5.
 
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Slots

Keep 6x10 from last year or go 6x8 (3xOU Ubers UU NU PU Rands). I don't think any changes need to be made 10 slots was acceptable, but some people seem determined to tweak the slots every year.. in that (worse) case I agree with Amaranth; the lower OU slots were the weakest part of last years tour, with a lot of stronger OU players covering lower tiers. I have never understood the fixation that 50% of the slots MUST be OU. We want quality over quantity and RBY is more than just one tier (a dozen mons)

Format

I admittedly supported Belgian Format last year as I'd never played it and whilst it wasn't awful I do think it became evident it had inherent problems. 9 weeks is excessive, as is playing the same team 3 times in the same tour. The biggest issue I have with it is the x2 points for the 2nd phase. The Vics and Hypno's had identical records (4-1-3) yet the Vics ended up with 1.5 pts more because some weeks are weighted more than others. No complaints about who progressed in this particular example as the Vics beat the Hypno's twice and in case of tied pts I would favour H2H record over a tiebreak but it is possible a team can finish with a worse record than another under this system and finish above them. From a competitive fairness sense that doesn't sit right with me.
I'd vote for either classic 6 teams, top 4 enter playoffs OR 6 teams, top advances straight to final, 2nd and 3rd play a Semi. Whatever format we go with I'd urge to keep the W/D/L scoring consistent throughout.

R.E 9 Weeks - It's been pointed out that some complaining at 9 weeks being excessive are also advocating for 8 teams. Yeah.. that is contradictory, and why I do not think 8 teams is the way to go

Best of X

One of the best parts of last years PL was the Bo5 OU slot imo. It was great seeing the Star names pretty much locked on to the same slot automatically as it gave Marquee matchups every week, and Bo5 gave the players something unique to experience compared to every other OU tour that is Bo3. Keep Bo5 OU

Some debate arose over wether to Bo5 UU, NU and PU that I hadn't even considered. This seemed divisive amongst the LT playerbase. Best solution is to keep Lower Tiers Bo3 but allow gentlemans agreements to Bo5. I would extend the same to Randbats with a base Bo5 and possibilty to gentlemans Bo7 also.
 
Slots

Keep 6x10 from last year or go 6x8 (3xOU Ubers UU NU PU Rands). I don't think any changes need to be made 10 slots was acceptable, but some people seem determined to tweak the slots every year.. in that (worse) case I agree with Amaranth; the lower OU slots were the weakest part of last years tour, with a lot of stronger OU players covering lower tiers. I have never understood the fixation that 50% of the slots MUST be OU. We want quality over quantity and RBY is more than just one tier (a dozen mons)

Format

I admittedly supported Belgian Format last year as I'd never played it and whilst it wasn't awful I do think it became evident it had inherent problems. 9 weeks is excessive, as is playing the same team 3 times in the same tour. The biggest issue I have with it is the x2 points for the 2nd phase. The Vics and Hypno's had identical records (4-1-3) yet the Vics ended up with 1.5 pts more because some weeks are weighted more than others. No complaints about who progressed in this particular example as the Vics beat the Hypno's twice and in case of tied pts I would favour H2H record over a tiebreak but it is possible a team can finish with a worse record than another under this system and finish above them. From a competitive fairness sense that doesn't sit right with me.
I'd vote for either classic 6 teams, top 4 enter playoffs OR 6 teams, top advances straight to final, 2nd and 3rd play a Semi. Whatever format we go with I'd urge to keep the W/D/L scoring consistent throughout.

R.E 9 Weeks - It's been pointed out that some complaining at 9 weeks being excessive are also advocating for 8 teams. Yeah.. that is contradictory, and why I do not think 8 teams is the way to go

Best of X

One of the best parts of last years PL was the Bo5 OU slot imo. It was great seeing the Star names pretty much locked on to the same slot automatically as it gave Marquee matchups every week, and Bo5 gave the players something unique to experience compared to every other OU tour that is Bo3. Keep Bo5 OU

Some debate arose over wether to Bo5 UU, NU and PU that I hadn't even considered. This seemed divisive amongst the LT playerbase. Best solution is to keep Lower Tiers Bo3 but allow gentlemans agreements to Bo5. I would extend the same to Randbats with a base Bo5 and possibilty to gentlemans Bo7 also.

Good post YBW . Personally I agree that if we had to decide right now, just keeping 6x10 would be better, but we can alternatively lock the 6 teams for now and then assess during player signups how many slots we should have. I am fairly confident 6x10 will be what we agree on in the future, but I could be wrong and if we have the opportunity to have a better solution close to the date we should definitely take it.

On the format, if we do the traditional one over Belgian (I still prefer Belgian, perhaps the points system could be tweaked?), I think we should just do 4 teams enter playoffs instead. I don't like having just 3 or 2 teams go to playoffs, I think the cons outweigh the pros (bye week and teams getting knocked out too early respectively).

On the lower tiers, as I said before I like the gentleman's agreement idea, but I really think we should default it to bo5, considering teambuilding/game length time-wise.

On rands we should probably default it to bo7 too, although from what I know of the rands playerbase it won't matter what's the default, everything will be played bo7 anyway.

I also don’t think we need at least 50% OU slots, so I pretty much agree entirely with Amaranth, 8x8 makes the most sense to me with 3OU, one of everything else that was in last year.

We don't have the lower tier playerbase to do 8 teams of 4 lower tiers+ rands in my opinion, since the rands playerbase overlaps with the lower tiers one a lot. I also think 3 OU slots is a small amount too, but the biggest issue is the lack of lower tier playerbase really. It means 40 starting players in lower tiers+rands (or more specifically, 32 players in lower tiers). I don't think that's feasible.
 
Please don’t default to longer Bo7 for rands, some of us have things to do. I also think default Bo5 is a bad idea for lower tiers, as it will turn off some people from signing up, but I don’t care that much about it since I personally am only interested in playing Rands. Gentlemen agreements are fine if people want longer series - it happens all the time already, and not everyone is able to put in the same time commitment for these tours. As a rands player, even requiring a Bo7 over a Bo5 is a turn off for a tier with no prep. I admire the passion in wanting lots of games to be played but some us simply do not have as much time as others these days.
 
If we're concerned that there's going to be a lack of OU signups for 10 slots but still want to include all low tiers we could always replace one of the OU slots with Rands.

OU x4, Rands x2, Ubers x1, UU x1, NU x1, PU x1.

We don't have the lower tier playerbase to do 8 teams of 4 lower tiers+ rands in my opinion, since the rands playerbase overlaps with the lower tiers one a lot.
I don't think this is true at all. Of the 6 Rands starters last year, only one person (YBW) had played a low tier at a high enough level to be drafted for one. Even if we expand to 2 Rands slots we'll absolutely have enough people from the Rands community to fill those slots without hurting the low tier slots.
 
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I completly agree with Amaranth, 8 teams 8 slots with 3 OU + 5 lower tiers sounds really good.

I don't play lower tiers so I have no opinion on BO5 lower tiers (though i'd definitely not watch that, as BO3 is already long commitment to watch). However as someone who's played RBY Randbats BO7 in the past, it is genuinely too much time. Most of my sets would go over one hour, sometimes one hour and half. With your opponent being able to come up to 30 minutes late, it is a huge time commitment. Keep it to BO5, this is already long, but it's reasonable and feels more fair than the BO3 we play in Randbats community tournaments.

Belgian League is not good. It felt very repititive and teams never really entered playoff mod.
 
5 ou was too many and i dont agree with "we will be doing 50% OU minimum" that sounds a little crazy to me

OU5 was a decent way to bring in new people I suppose, but it's a pretty extreme strain on managers and players to help bring those people up to speed, and the games in that slot were pretty low quality

i think a 3 OU / 5 lowtiers (ubers uu nu pu rands) tournament with 8 teams would make a lot of sense - maybe 8 slots for some of these lowtiers will be stretching the playerbases a little thin, but i think it's a downside that you can put up with.

- the number of OU games will be good (3x8=24 down a little bit from last year's 5x6=30, which is good, because that number was too high). 4 OU x 8 teams would be going even higher (32 ou starting slots) which is actual insanity given that this was the worst part of last year's format
- you get 8 teams instead of any of the 6 team formats (it's clear that no 6-team solution will unite the playerbase, all the options will leave someone unhappy, 8 team will not do that)
- the downside of not finding enough players for lowtiers is pretty nebulous, clearly it's possible to find 8 people to start in UPL/UUPL/etc and I get that there'll be some overlap but still it should be sustainable overall

but overall i really cannot stress enough how 30 OU slots was too many last year, please let's cut that number down

also @ "dont make UU Bo5 it will be awful to play" maybe consider that UU is the problem in that equation and not Bo5? if you hate playing UU that much dont sign up for it lol. UU Bo5 seems fine to me, it's not like the games will be physically exhausting the whole set will be over in like 25 minutes anyway. that's an early game in rby ou, you all should be able to handle that

+1
 
If we're concerned that there's going to be a lack of OU signups for 10 slots but still want to include all low tiers we could always replace one of the OU slots with Rands.

OU x4, Rands x2, Ubers x1, UU x1, NU x1, PU x1.


I don't think this is true at all. Of the 6 Rands starters last year, only one person (YBW) had played a low tier at a high enough level to be drafted for one. Even if we expand to 2 Rands slots we'll absolutely have enough people from the Rands community to fill those slots without hurting the low tier slots.

Even overlap aside, I don't think we can find 32 experienced/enthusiastic lower tiers players. Moreover, I've actually probed around several lower tiers players who also play rands and OU who explicitly said they are either not signing up or exclusively playing rands or OU, hence my statement. Or managing, like you for instance.

I also think there's going to be more OU signups this year than last year, but obviously that much I can't confirm yet. Once again, I'm going off of the engagement levels I've been seeing and some asking around, but for OU it's always a bit harder to be so sure. However, I really still think it's safe to keep the 30 OU slots, and thus keep the format from last year. And if for some reason we can't do it, if we do 6 teams we can still go from 6x10 to 6x8 during player signups (or vice versa).

I completly agree with Amaranth, 8 teams 8 slots with 3 OU + 5 lower tiers sounds really good.

I don't play lower tiers so I have no opinion on BO5 lower tiers (though i'd definitely not watch that, as BO3 is already long commitment to watch). However as someone who's played RBY Randbats BO7 in the past, it is genuinely too much time. Most of my sets would go over one hour, sometimes one hour and half. With your opponent being able to come up to 30 minutes late, it is a huge time commitment. Keep it to BO5, this is already long, but it's reasonable and feels more fair than the BO3 we play in Randbats community tournaments.

Belgian League is not good. It felt very repititive and teams never really entered playoff mod.

I'm against to 8x8 compared to 6x10 because:

1) that involves finding two extra pairs of managers. We should be making sure there's high quality in manager duos, something that definitely happened last year and that becomes much harder to make happen with 8 manager pairings, and

2) once again, I'm very skeptical of our ability to find 32 experienced/enthusiastic lower tier players. Much more skeptical than our ability to find 30 experienced/enthusiastic OU players.

Regarding 3x OU slots, naturally the moment I disagree with 8 teams I can't possibly agree with it, 18 OU slots is just not it. We need at least 4 slots if we do 8x8.
 
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i fw bo5 lower tiers but i guess it can be a time commitment if you or your opponent isnt a clicker (L), maybe we can default to bo5 and allow gentlemans bo3 and point fingers and laugh at anyone who actually uses the bo3? lmao
i dont like bye week as it reallly kills momentum, 6 -> 4 poffs seems the best imo? 8x4 low tiers seems pretty impossible to find tbh, if pu is cut (which i have no opinion on as i have always found the tier not fun) then 8 slots seems more doable
bo5 ou was cool to see every week def keep that in
 
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