Rejected Re-suspect testing Kyurem in SV OU after irregularities affected its result

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Mimikyu Stardust

Banned deucer.
Hello. I’m writing this message in hopes that it will reach the OU Council & our community and bring about some positive change.

The issue I’m talking about is the Kyurem suspect that happened in October, highlighting a problem that continued to happen in the entirety of Gen 9. In this suspect, we have discovered that multiple people have cheated to enter the voting process resulting in their votes being revoked.

However, since then, other issues have been brought to light: like Antho, who was unjustly banned and, even if the ban is now rescinded, his vote was not counted again, even if the error was not his. The result after the bans was 74 in favor and 51 not in favor, however, if Antho’s vote had been counted (as it should have) the result would have been 75 vs 51 which puts the results in contention with the final votes.

In total 137 people qualified to vote on the suspect, but only 136 were able to because of the early interruption in the voting process. An understandable decision, since at the time one vote could not have made any difference and we had already reached the percentage needed. But now the situation is very different, because one vote could have a great impact on the suspect's result.

Taking all of this into consideration, we can see that this suspect has been dealt with negligence and superficiality. People who got banned and then unbanned, votes not considered in the count, are all signs of a tarnished suspect.

In conclusion, I (plus multiple other people) think another Kyurem suspect should be re-organized to make the situation clearer. Not in two or three months, like the OU Council has proposed, but as quickly as possible to resolve this situation and right the previous suspect wrongs.

After all of this, other people have been found to have cheated on other suspects with proof. Their votes have questionable weight as they have been banned, some permanently. I’m not here to speculate on the validity of votes that for now have been found valid, but I can’t help but question if they should be counted as such. For this reason, I think a recount of the votes (if possible) should be on the table.

I have explained all my reasons why I think another Kyurem suspect should be organized, after the end of the Palafin suspect of course. And it's not only me who thinks this, since the whole community is deeply unhappy with how this particular suspect was handled (see SV OU Metagame discussion thread). With SPL right around the corner it would be best to take immediate action towards a new Kyurem suspect to minimize possible future problems in the tier.
 
I am fine testing Kyurem again soon. If we do it even sooner than we normally would (like doing so after Palafin), I won’t lose any sleep. It was a close test with some drama surrounding it. I am happy to bring that up to the council.
Doing too many tests on the same Pokemon is usually unfair and generates diminished returns, but with how close it is and how different the tier is from the time of the first test, circumstances are exceptional enough to where it would be fine.
With this said, the OP is misleading on a couple of points and wrong on Kyurem. Antho’s vote would not change anything. It would still be under 60%.

The remaining vote — JOKIC_FMVP — wasn’t placed due to the user not voting by the deadline. The user did not log in at all during the voting period. The user has only logged into Smogon once since this time, multiple months ago. The user was never going to vote. He did the same thing during a prior suspect, too LOL

This happens during most suspects — 1-2 people who get reqs early forget to log in or forget about the suspect altogether. Claiming that this has anything to do with the cheating, the closeness of the vote, or Kyurem is inaccurate. The verdict of the second Kyurem test was rightfully do not ban given the pool of people who got reqs and votes. That is a matter of fact. We can thank PS staff for spending hours on no notice to solve this as soon as humanly possible.

The fact that there was an abnormality in the checking process with Antho and it was corrected within a day had no impact on the verdict. Claiming otherwise is disingenuous. PS staff did a marvelous job solving an unprecedented situation and then responded even stronger (alongside Chaos) with the new suspect verification process, which is fully automated.

I have no clue who is in the know that is “deeply unhappy” with how this was handled, but it was handled in the only possibly way and gave an accurate result. The OP misses the mark and some facts on this.

Going back to prior suspects, which the OP sites concerns about: Staff went through every single vote across every single prior suspect and punished people appropriately who cheated. None of the verdicts changed and none were close. This took dozens of man hours and was done with a very quick turnaround time.

For example, WoF got banned for laddering for multiple people to try and get Tera banned during the first suspect of the generation. Tera stayed regardless, but the margin would’ve been by 1-2% more. Every other suspect test that may have been impacted wasn’t even close to being swayed. The fact that they went this far back and this deep into things is reassuring and implying anything is still wrong is just conspiracy.

TL;DR: I am fine testing Kyurem again soon, but the OP is filled with misinformation. Thanks to PS staff for doing quick and effective work on an unprecedented situation.
 
As I am not a super moderator, I don’t have the permissions required to fact-check everything, so my intel was not completely accurate. Sorry if I overstepped, it was not my intention.

We are thankful to our wonderful staff for their quick response and the willingness to hear us out, and for all the work they do for our community.

Since the Palafin suspect should end early in January, we could do another Kyurem suspect between its end and the start of SPL as you suggested, if that would be possible or doable. It would be a great way to end all this uncertainty on the matter. Because otherwise the state of the tier would become unmanageable, taking out Kyurem would be a great way to help the tier be more balanced, the faster the better.


Thank you again for hearing us out and for your reply!
 
You don’t need to be a (super) moderator. All of that information is publicly available and most of it was disclosed in the same metagame discussion thread you alluded to in the OP.

The rest I would consider common knowledge — most people heard about the WoF ban and anyone can check who did or did not vote in a suspect (and I figure someone would before pointing fingers). It’s feasible someone just never heard the former I guess.
Regardless, I’m not spending anymore of my time on that — this thread can stay open to discuss how people feel SV OU should handle Kyurem.

I am fine testing it again after Palafin. I am fine waiting like we normally would. People should give their input here. It’s a good topic to discuss and we can move our metagame forward, which is what is most important.

I will relay this to the council in a few days, so don’t hesitate to post now/soon if you feel strongly. Thanks, have a great holiday to everyone
 
Agree with Mimi, even if there was false points, the suspect was confusing in itself, so I hope we'll get an other suspect after the Palafin one (even tho I think we'll keep kyurem unbanned if Palafin stays...) I'd like to see other ppl share their thoughts about it here also if they have time
 
I highly support testing Kyurem again. Its ability to spam freeze moves (getting hit with two Freeze-Dries has about the chance of you hitting a hydro pump not to get frozen) combined with its set+tera type variety make it unreasonably difficult to prepare for in the builder and check in battle. Most players agree that Freeze is an uncompetitive mechanic, and Kyurem takes Freeze to the extreme.

Kyurem is an uncompetitive element in the SV OU tier and I highly doubt many people would miss seeing it at team preview.
 
I'm 100% for a new kyurem suspect test too. I think I've seen too much mixed dd bullshitting games for months to know that this mon is clearly unhealthy for that metagame and should be back to Ubers. Thanks to Mimikyu Stardust for having shared this and I'm regaining some hope for this metagame. Thanks to the council too for discussing this as mentionned !

This mon is unhealthy for the current metagame, not even talking about teracristallization coupled with Kyurem.

Edit : Completely agree with Eeveeto for a new Gliscor suspect after Kyurem
 
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Not opposing to this, but I would add as a suggestion that if this goes through AND Kyurem ends up banned, Gliscor should be immediately Suspected right after it. It got more than 50% Ban votes with Kyurem in the Tier and I am pretty sure that Kyurem avoiding Ban influenced the outcome of Gliscor's Suspect too, we can all agree that Gliscor is worse with Kyurem in the Tier than without it.
 
One thing I'd like to bring up is the fact that suspect testing something thrice isn't necessarily without precedent - National Dex, although not an official tier, tested Tera three times, and had a better metagame for it. One thing I'd like to bring up is the fact that National Dex only managed to get a suspect of Tera approved after quite a while after the second Tera suspect, although that could be due to the negative stigma surrounding the test. Finch has all but confirmed that the test will be allowed, though, so more power to those who want Kyurem gone - my main concern is why the test needs to be run right now.
 
I don't think Kyurem should immediately be slated for the next suspect test, but I do think it's worth putting the option on the next survey (which was allegedly supposed to be after SCL, but now seems to be in a state of limbo with a potential Palafin unban). I personally do support a Kyurem re-test, but I don't think there should be an immediate Gliscor suspect right afterwards, especially if Palafin is unbanned, since I think the metagame has evolved quite a bit since the last Gliscor suspect and has a potential to go in quite a different direction than the previous metagame we had during Kyurem's brief hiatus from the tier.
 
Resting Kyurem after a suspect test was marred by cheating is whatever, but retesting it because a group on the losing side of the vote cheated is nonsensical. Every valid vote except one was cast, and that one vote was from an account that went inactive, so it's not a case of not bothering to vote after the result was announced.

Even re-adding Antho's vote gives a 75-51 result, or 59.5%, which - while incredibly close - is still under the 60% ban result.

"It was close" being a reason to rush another suspect test is also terrible precedent. Here, the result would need either two new Pro-Ban voters, or one voter to flip their choice - and while Lose to RU? did cast a 'joke' vote, that's on him. If every close suspect vote can be cast aside because Reasons, then close votes provide no finality. Maybe that's something worth looking into, and having automatic re-tests after a vote within X%, but unless that is made formal policy then we shouldn't be making exceptions, because there's often going to be justifications for the latest suspect.

After all, what if the next controversial suspect result falls three votes shy? Is that a reason to rush a second suspect? If so, what about falling four votes shy? If not, why is two the magic number? There needs to be a specific line drawn to avoid endless arguments, and right now that line is "We don't retest just because it was close."

We ban mons, not moves, even when it's blatantly obvious that the move is the problem, because consistency is important. We should, likewise, value consistency here, and allow suspect test results to stand.

Now, all that said, there's a survey coming up, and if Kyurem goes and scores a 4, then that's a much better conversation - especially if Palafin is legalized in OU, and thus it wouldn't be two tests in the exact same metagame. The vote being close, and a dozen people on the losing side cheating, those aren't good reasons.
 
If Palafin is kept in Ubers, I will be in favor of a new suspect in Kyurem, not because of the fraud or because of a result between 50-60% that causes discord in part of the community.
My main reason is that Kyurem has continued to develop and adapt. During its suspect, the biggest complaint was the SubTect set, while at the moment varied sets of DD with some varied Physical Tera from Ground/Fire/Electric, some with Freeze-Dry, have put Kyurem against the wall.
I am not against a new action in Kyurem if Palafin stays in OU, but in that case the metagame would need some time to adapt more.
 
Finchinator said:
With the Palafin suspect test beginning the voting phase soon, I implore anyone else with thoughts or feedback to provide it here.
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If I'm allowed to give my 5 cents, why should we suspect the same Pokémon for the third time so soon instead of moving on and exploring other ways of improving the tier? It's not really my place to say which course of action is best but since the second Kyurem suspect I'm convinced there is an attractive alternative in testing Tera Blast. If there was no consensus in the first and the second time, what changed such that there will be a consensus in the third time so soon?

I would say there is a real chance Tera Blast is suspected eventually regardless of what happens with the likeshop.
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source

Tiering wise, I have mentioned it before, but I personally support a Tera Blast ban and fully agree with Storm Zone that Kyurem would probably be "do not ban" to me if it lacked the option to run Tera Blast
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This has been talked about for a while so why delay it further when it could directly impact Kyurem's viability? I'm not claiming X will solve the tier but there are at least two potential consequences that should affect Kyurem, so why not move on and come back to this at a later time if necessary? Personally I don't think my opinion is even relevant here, on whether I think Kyurem should be banned or not, but as someone who voted DNB in the second suspect I think that this should not get in the way of other actions that could improve the tier, especially those that could affect Kyurem's viability. This would provide a bigger picture than what we currently have (two suspects and no ban) and I'm sure it would contribute to the entire Kyurem discussion.
 
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TMTito said:
If I'm allowed to give my 5 cents, why should we suspect the same Pokémon for the third time so soon instead of moving on and explore other ways of improving the tier?
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My opinion, as the previously alluded to in the same metagame thread you hyperlinked in posts here, here, and in prior posts, was that we should have a survey after the first week of SPL (mid-January) including Kyurem, Tera Blast, Kingambit, Ogerpon-Wellspring, and various other options. Then, we act based on the council's internal consensus at the time with the survey results factord in.

I do not personally support forcing through another Kyurem test and went as far as dissecting all of the misinformation in the OP here because I find it to be a proposal made on inaccurate grounds. However, if the proposal is so popular, then odds are Kyurem would get the most support on a survey and would be worth looking back into. That is why I have repeatedly requested people weigh in and provide feedback! Me bumping this thread is an effort to get information from passionate players of the metagame, not push an agenda, especially one that is a far cry from my own personal opinion.

As for why Kyurem is at least back on the table in the near future: Kyurem was suspect tested in mid-September, so it will have been four months with multiple other suspects in the elapsed time, makaing it fair to bring Kyurem back into discussion. I did not personally want Kyurem to be defaulted to or prioritized over anything -- I wanted the qualified playerbase to provide input and my tiering council to determine the next suspect. Maybe they do want Kyurem, but maybe there is support for something else or not enough support for anything -- I do not know what it will be and there is no agenda currently in place beyond my personal devotion to go through the proper processes and generate the best result for the metagame.

If you want my personal preference -- and this is not an open invitation for the rest of this thread to skew off-topic, I think Kyurem would be second or third in line given how I see the metagame. I do not think we are in need of a myriad of bans and I think a lot of fuss about the metagame is overblown, but I am never one to push my personal opinion over a majority of the council or a strong showing on a tiering survey of course.

I find Kingambit more suspect worthy than Kyurem, but I worry the community is not ready for that discussion. Short of that, Ogerpon-Wellspring is at least as worthy of discussion as Kyurem, if not even more. Neither is really pressing and nothing is breaking the tier wide open now though (you can also mention things like Raging Bolt in this vicinity). Tera Blast is an interesting topic and multiple people on the council, especially including ausma, have shown support for it. I am not exactly in favor of a suspect, but I do not vehemently oppose it if the numbers are there. I hope this clears things up.
 
Finchinator said:
:Kyurem: Kyurem :Kyurem:
  • General: 3.59 / 5
  • Qualified: 3.50 / 5
  • SPL: 3.77 / 5
Kyurem received a good amount of support and we will discuss it as a potential target for tiering action. I expect for us to discuss the topic on the forums rather than rushing into an immediate suspect, but anything is possible.
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Kyurem received good, but not quite overwhelming, support from qualified and SPL players in the recent tiering survey. It saw an uptick among the cross-section of voters who participate in SPL, which I feel is noteworthy.

The council is considering options, but we would love to hear from you -- no, not the PR mainers please no, but the frequent players of SV OU! What do you feel would be the best next step or should we wait a bit longer?
 
I think testing kyurem after spl, if at al, makes the most sense, both from a metagame and timing perspective. Before I dive into why, the score being high should be a surprise to no one since both tests have had razor thin margins and bans requiring a supermajority means a large amount of the playerbase will still be iffy on it regardless. Also, a lot of the notable infracted players regarding the cheating were high level tour players so it somewhat tracks that the spl playerbase had the highest score.

As far as timing of a potential test, after SPL is best. The metagame always develops at an accelerated pace during tours, with new sets, techs and team compositions being discovered and brought. We've seen bulky & red card darkrai, custap & draco plate walking wake, a resurgence in latios, garchomp, rotom-wash usage, sitrus thundurs-t and even AV and boots 3a + protect on kyurem in just 2 weeks. Kyurem isn't also particularly warping nor is it putting up extraordinary performances in SPL games I've watched or on ladder from my experience. Last SPL had a great showing of the effects of how a warping pokemon actually affects high level gameplay with arch rain dominating week 1 and structures slotted with loads of anti-rain tools started popping up. This just isn't happening here, if anything kyurem's usage going up week 2 seems more like a response to structures with 3 of or all 4 of zama/ting/ghold/dnite since its ice stabs can really punish these structures, especially special variants that carry earth power.

As far as timing goes, testing it immediately just seems like trying to re-test the same mon until voters get fatigued into either a) banning it so they don't have to deal with yet another kyurem test or b) not caring anymore leading to far lower turnout. It was just tested a few months ago and there hasn't been any major developments in sets or what it actually does and, if anything, pecharunt rising means dd sets, which are most unpredictable thanks to having 3 distinct tera blasts to account for, are worse and the more predictable special sets are better now. After SPL also gives the tour players, who seem to dislike it the most, more time to actually get reqs and vote whereas now turnout would be more wishy-washy with all the focus on prep.

Ultimately I've voted dnb on kyurem twice and will gladly do so again, so my opinion on waiting things out might be skewed but it seems more like the metagame revolves around zama & ting with pech & dnite arguably also being potentially centralizing and kyurem's resurgence is tied to being able to beat these cornerstone pokemon.
 
Gonna lock this for now. We are moving on with another suspect and it’s not Kyurem, but Kyurem will remain on our radar.

It’s been enough time to where if it’s the prime candidate for a suspect, it’ll happen, and if not, it won’t. That is regardless of history at this point. It is very possible we suspect Kyurem again and we have it on our minds to say the least.

Thanks to everyone for sharing your thoughts.
 
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