Regular and Special Ed Class Separation in Schools

[MrIndigo]

I was particularly intrigued by a proposal at the School Committee meeting with a summer program focused on vocational/technical training. Too often the trades, the experience of work, gets discounted for the theoretical income value of a four year degree. Well, my degree is pretty much collecting dust since I'm the ultimate generalist, so I have the debt without the big bucks job. If you work out of high school but our education was geared towards excellence, when you do go to college you'll have a little more seed money for your student loans. I don't think college is for everyone, at least not everyone between the ages of 17-20.

Australia is currently running into this problem. It's partially a societal perspective (smart people go to university, so if my kid goes to university he must be smart and will get better paid), but it's also fuelled by other contributory factors like pressures in the job market becoming more information-heavy, and the no-brained campaigning by the major political party (especially the current government) of making commitments that 90% of students will get a university degree. Part of it is just capitalising on the popular misconception, but there are also incentives related to employment figures, and because the university students are a large Labor-supporting group.

One of the side effects is that the job market is not expanding as fast as the number of graduates is (in part because changes to superannuation and cost of living mean people have to wait longer to retire), so degrees are being devalued and turning into must-haves to get jobs that didn't originally require them. This in turn drives the engine more, because now people DO need a degree to get a job at all.

 

[Myzozoa]

In my high school we had 3 tiers of schooling. We had an upper magnet program that was meant immitate the type of rigorous learning supposedly done in private prep schools, and then we had a secondary magnet program for mainly for dumb/lazy white children with angry parents (the 3rd tier was everyone else). There were also some smart black and hispanic students in with the lazy white children. Some of the children in the secondary magnet program's had ADD/ ADHD and had IEPs (just like what was talked about in the OP). Teachers in the magnet program unaccustomed to behavioral differences in afflicted students were somewhat frustrated at first, i think, but it wasn't so bad.

But that wasn't why you made this thread. In my high school, interaction between these tiers was non-existant outside of elective classes such as band, art, language classes, and theatre, up until senior year. Within these elective classes however the kids got along very well, I was very happy at my high school because I felt that cliques were somewhat marginalized despite the separate tiers. Senior year was different because greater elective choice led to more interaction and it was mostly okay, students from different tiers got on normally in the classroom, and you couldn't really tell just by observing social interactions which students came from each tier. In conclusion, separate tiers is mostly a good thing, even if it is disheartening that they have almost no basis in merit at most public high schools.

 

[Eraddd]

In my high school, there was the IB (Honors) classes, and the regular classes and there were also a few special education classes. My experiences are in the former, so I'll be elaborating on that.

I felt personally that Honours classes from regular classes was beneficial in that people who wanted to learn and get a higher education were able to, as opposed to those who were going to high school for the sake of going to high school, or going to trades school. I felt that the education I received in high school was top notch, and comparing it to the education in the regular class, I would not have a huge interest in the fields of physics, chemistry, and others. My Honors class also brings out the best in students; we've sent several students to Ivy League schools, even though we're not a big name high school even in our own district (keep in mind this is in Canada, which is a even bigger barrier for our students).

However, with separation, there will inevitable be conflicts. In our graduating class, the regular students accused the honors students of creating our own groups and cliques, and not doing things as a graduating class. For example, when our honors students decided on creating a camping trip for themselves, as we end school in May, and they in June, a few regular kids got wind of it, and escalated into a huge bitch fest across Facebook and even in real life, until the administration heard of it. Furthermore, most of the student led activities were actually led by IB students mainly, and the regular students felt that they were being left out (things like Student Council, where you have to be elected to positions). They thought they were being unfairly pushed out of the picture. In the end, our graduating class was pretty segregated, which was one of the reasons I didn't bother attending commencement, and left the country early.

It's a trade off essentially. Having Honors classes benefits students in that they're challenged and brings out the best of them, and brings out their interests and their drive to learn. However, in some cases, there will be segregation within the grade that leads to conflict, if the classes are too separated.

 

[pookar]

in my former high school, there were a couple different levels of special ed. Our building had an autistic like section (with full time aides, lowfunctioning), another lowfunctioning special ed section, these were separated 98% of the time from classes with "normal" students. Then there was kids who were just a bit behind the normal kids, usually were just a "year behind" the other students at their grade level in certain courses (math/science usually). I dont really like calling those students special ed, but they probably had IEPs and such so theres the classification. Then there were normal performing students that had aides or a "special" class integrated with a helping teacher . But these students were in regular (sometimes slightly higher) courses. I can't really comment on anything above normal, because I never took any honors or AP courses. my IEP required that i have an aide (sit in back of class, take notes, help out a bit) in class with me (by the end of HS it was just in english/ss) and I was in that 'special' class as well (by choice after 10th grade. so much easier doing hw and assignments in school instead of at home). I definitely couldve done fine without these, but i was in that school because of out of district placement and taking away those benefits would have probably taken me out of that school as well.

My school was supposed to be quite good with special education, and i found that the help they gave was quality most of the time, and beneficial.

Interestingly, one of the severely handicapped was integrated into the Pep rally as a "football player" as well as a soccer "player" i believe. and they were usually treated decently by the rest of the students.. occasional jokes but nothing like teasing. Sadly if you were in that tier between "popular" and everyone else you still got treated like a high schooler. my own graduating class seemed alright just about, but the one below us was full of jerkstores and assholes, terrible

 

[ck49]

My school system in the US was alot like what Lanturn said. Up until 5th grade everyone was taught in the same class, outside of in English where we split into smaller groups which weren't officially dependent on your level, but you could tell they were. Other than that, if you got in the top 5 percentile of kids on the ITBS (iowa test of basic skills, starting from third grade) you were invited to join ELP (extended learning program). I actually was invited in second grade, as were a few others. In 5th grade, if your itbs score for math was above the 90th percentile you were invited to take a second test, in which if your ITBS score (for math) + your % in this test + teacher recommendation (out of 12) added up to a certain amount, the next year you would be able to take prealgebra, which is what most kids ended up taking in 7th. So that way, in 7th you can go ahead and take algebra, and end up with 2 years of AP math. In 6th grade, you have to take a test to assess you skill level in math, where you would be put in, from highest to lowest, Algebra, Pre algebra, Math 7, or Math 7a. Math 7 was considered average though most kids took pre al. You also had the option to skip ahead in other subjects (like I did in Spanish) but mostly no one did. Of course, you can skip ahead later on if you study the course ahead of time. This seemed like a good system, since honestly, upon coming to India after 7th grade, I knew nothing about Chemistry or Physics, but was up to date, if not ahead in biology. In 7th we learnt bio and in 8th we learned physics and chem. So here I was behind in those 2, but I've managed to catch up.

Here, in India, I go to a private school with 500 kids k-12 total. There aren't enough people to let people jump classes, and we are studying for the igcse exam, so there is no advanced work. Thats what I dislike about here, half the time is spent on exam practice, and we learn nothing outside of the set syllabus. However, in AICE (IGCSE for 11th and 12th) there is an option to take advanced math, which I plan on taking next year. The problem is, these past 2 years I've been getting really bored in math, Badal (in my class) falls asleep in Biology, and some of my other friends feel the same in other subjects. Its like we are being punished by relearning stuff we have already learnt. AS such I heartily agree with separation, having been through both courses.

 

[Crona]

I don't remember much before high school (I have a HORRIBLE memory), but in middle school, we generally didn't see Special Ed classes until we had non academic classes, like Physical Education. But usually we interacted little because the normal class was on one side of the room and the special ed class was on the other.
I did become friends with a few in Special Ed, but this was due to living in the same neighborhood. In high school the Special Ed class pretty much does the same as middle school but they run the coffee shop for the school. So there's more interaction (since everyone in my high school has coffee at some point).

 

[Steelicks]

since im actually a primary school teacher i thought i'd weigh in here

out of the 20 students i have, 4 of them have been identified as "critically low" in terms of academics, and have an IEP each. i am fortunate enough to have an assistant for one of these children (who has behaviour problems) so i am able to implement these IEP's (involving small group work at their level outside of the room). while IEP's are a great concept they are simply impractical without the help of an education assistant, so while i am very fortunate this year, in previous years i havent been so lucky

also at our school we have only recently started streamed reading, which means to divide the kids into ability levels for an hour a day to do intensive reading sessions at their level. im handling the lowest group and i must say its working very well for me, but theres only 11 of them in my group... im sure it would be nightmare-ish taking a whole class size

keep in mind that im talking about kids with learning difficultys, not special ed/disabled students. such kids do require an IEP, and often cannot be catered for properly by public schools

 

[Bad Ass]

Because they're human beings you monster. You'd be surprised at what kinds of people can benefit from education. Idiots like you infuriate me.

I don't need you calling me an idiot. Being human does not mean that you should have the right to go to school if you can't benefit from it. If you can't speak or think in an order of higher intelligence, what use do you have going to school?


and @ Hip. That's fine and good except when you have to pay for teachers/special equipment/etc that could go to functioning students.

 

[Umbreon Dan]

I don't need you calling me an idiot. Being human does not mean that you should have the right to go to school if you can't benefit from it. If you can't speak or think in an order of higher intelligence, what use do you have going to school?

yeah, school should have an entrance exam so that only the deserving children can have an education christ you're an asshole

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

yeah, school should have an entrance exam so that only the deserving children can have an education christ you're an ass

What? First off retarded people need some sort of education, or else they can not function at all in the real world. After 13 years of school if all they can do is act appropriately and understand what I want, they will be great working as a grocery bagger or a floor sweeper. I consider that a success because at least they are doing something, as opposed to nothing. And how far are you willing to go with this idea? Perhaps you don’t allow the bottom percentile of people to not be allowed in schools. How would such a test be set up? What age? Maybe kids might get more determined as they grow up, so you can’t do it too early. No, school has been mandatory for the past 100 years for a reason, to make sure the population isn't too shit stupid. I mean what do you expect these "undeserving children" to do with there lives? Knowing literally nothing about math or science? How will they make intelligence decisions at the polls if they don't know basic history? “Undeserving kids” as adults would never want there children to get better then them, so even more people end up just hanging around, shit stupid. No, everyone gets an education, its mandatory for any successful nation in today's world.

Edit: Wow I could only see the hidden comment after quoted.

 

[jumpluff]

since im actually a primary school teacher i thought i'd weigh in here

out of the 20 students i have, 4 of them have been identified as "critically low" in terms of academics, and have an IEP each. i am fortunate enough to have an assistant for one of these children (who has behaviour problems) so i am able to implement these IEP's (involving small group work at their level outside of the room). while IEP's are a great concept they are simply impractical without the help of an education assistant, so while i am very fortunate this year, in previous years i havent been so lucky

also at our school we have only recently started streamed reading, which means to divide the kids into ability levels for an hour a day to do intensive reading sessions at their level. im handling the lowest group and i must say its working very well for me, but theres only 11 of them in my group... im sure it would be nightmare-ish taking a whole class size

keep in mind that im talking about kids with learning difficultys, not special ed/disabled students. such kids do require an IEP, and often cannot be catered for properly by public schools

I was hoping you'd post; I was wondering what you had to say, since you are a teacher. I'm pleased to hear streamed reading is working! In kindergarten, since everyone else was still learning to read, I was put into a streamed reading group in Year 2; they were trialling them that year, I think. I liked it because it meant we could all read at our own pace and books that were more to our level, but I never knew what it was like for the lower groups. :X Incidentally, what size is your school?

 

[Bad Ass]

My last post in this thread. I clearly stated that it was for children who COULD NOT FUNCTION IN SOCIETY. Children who can't speak, follow basic instructions, walk, and think on a higher level.

Way to misunderstand me.and way to insult me in white after said misunderstanding

 

[mattj]

The reality is that many people who you may not think could possibly function in society actually could with proper help. And yes he was right.

Wait, what the heck does walking have to do with education? I think people like you are wasting our education dollars.

 

[MrIndigo]

The reality is that many people who you may not think could possibly function in society actually could with proper help. And yes he was right.

Wait, what the heck does walking have to do with education? I think people like you are wasting our education dollars.

ZING

 

[billymills]

My last post in this thread. I clearly stated that it was for children who COULD NOT FUNCTION IN SOCIETY. Children who can't speak, follow basic instructions, walk, and think on a higher level.

Way to misunderstand me.and way to insult me in white after said misunderstanding

The problem is, you can never tell if someone is able to fit in society or not, and it's almost always worth it to take the shot. (Very few cases are obviously hopeless.)
However, if you've ever read mattj's posts before, you should know by now it's best to ignore him completely.

 

[Umbreon Dan]

dear bad ass:

 

[Steelicks]

I was hoping you'd post; I was wondering what you had to say, since you are a teacher. I'm pleased to hear streamed reading is working! In kindergarten, since everyone else was still learning to read, I was put into a streamed reading group in Year 2; they were trialling them that year, I think. I liked it because it meant we could all read at our own pace and books that were more to our level, but I never knew what it was like for the lower groups. :X Incidentally, what size is your school?

theres about 500 kids at our school, kind of a regular sized public school in australia. i think the streaming is working really well too, although im extremely lucky... because i got the low kids, ive got a small group, where as some other teachers have more than the maximum allowed class size! (32+ kids)

 

[Shiny Mew2]

It really doesn't help in my school. 1, it's aggravating most of the time. 2, they don't really do work, just watch movies and play on th wii.

 

[Steelicks]

haha i would get my ass bounced out of my school so fast if i let them do anything even remotely fun =(

 

[comatthew6]

There's a few Special Ed people in my school. Granted, I don't see them much anymore (they're maybe 5 in 1300 people) but I saw them way more in middle school. Honestly, it seems like they'd be better off in their own classes. Including them in regular classes with students without an IEP causes problems all around - the S.E. students tend to be rather disruptive (from my experience) but at the same time they really can't learn from a normal class when they're behind. My middle school integrated them for a few classes (one was in my homeroom and apparently one was in a friend's Tech Ed class) but keep them separate for other classes.

Also, to get this straight: not every mental disorder warrants Special Education - I know a few people with disorders such as Asperger's and ADHD and they're some of my best friends (except one, but he's just a douche in general) and end up in high-level classes.

Agreed.

 

[Sy123]

My last post in this thread. I clearly stated that it was for children who COULD NOT FUNCTION IN SOCIETY. Children who can't speak, follow basic instructions, walk, and think on a higher level.

Way to misunderstand me.and way to insult me in white after said misunderstanding

Education can give someone a very big boost in confidence. Take migrants for example they get a real confidence boost when taking a TAFE class, I for one know people like that.
Whether they can speak or not if they can see that someone is taking their time to sit down with them and show them something would undoubtedly would boost their confidence which is good since a lot of the time they are discriminated.