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Research Group #4 - Porygon-Z, Zoroark, Venomoth
- Thread starter kokoloko
- Start date
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Posting to show as much support for this as possible. A vast majority of the players I play against lead with Zoroark. This is getting to the point where I will lead with a Zoroark check (Cobalion) and force "Azelf" to switch. Risky moves like that are not supposed to pay off. But after a thousand matches, you begin to understand that some players like their patterns and will not adapt unless they are absolutely forced. You can even disguise Zoroark as a Cobalion, who has no business leading, to bring it out midgame and force a Slowbro or Mew in, who would normally beat it. Starting off with Cobalion, however, will force the Zoro check in immediately because the experienced player knows what you're doing.
Be creative. Zoroark is about bluffing, not patterns.
Just a quick post to wholeheartedly agree with Zoroark being a bad lead in general. It's predictable and not only that, but the popularity of fast U-turn in the lead slot doesn't do it any favours either.
sounds fun! :D sign me up!
i will use the alt "Swellow 3" i will be using all of them!
i will use the alt "Swellow 3" i will be using all of them!
I'll try out zoroark out
alt: Fruit
alt: Fruit
Ok, so me and Fast Flygon are here working with both Zoro and Pory-Z, and this is insane
This is a +2 Tri Attack aganist an Empoleon, one on UUs Special Walls. Pory is just amazing
I love using P-Z and another pokemon that appreciates Empoleon, Snorlax, Bronzong, or Porygon2 being gone. You force the opponent into one of these pokemon as you boost up, leaving them wide open to be swept by something like Rain Dance Kingdra or Chandelure, to name a few. It is also amazing against offensive teams, using a "double dance" strategy with Agility and NP to either break apart stall or destroy offense. This really only works with hazard support though, because unboosted P-Z misses out on a TON of KOs otherwise.
Hehe, yup, this team is pretty fun. Using Zoro to soften things for a Porygon-z sweep, more or less. Qwilfish/Gligar/Snorlax defensive core sets hazards and walls shit. Subsplit Rotom spinblocks Blastoise and abuses hazards. Porygon-Z is impressing me a lot than Zoro at the moment, tbh. The analysis makes it sound like he has no bulk at all but that's just not true. Took Flygon's Outrage for 70%, killed it, swept the opponent. 80/70/75 is nowhere near fragile and Pory has plenty of bulk to live a weak hit or even switch into something that doesn't hit too hard. It's great at forcing switches, so it can grab a sub and go to town. Often you don't even need a plot to do some damage and if you get a Nasty Ploy and a Sub the opponent is probably in deep shit.
Zoro has been a lot of fun and semi-cool but not wow. That fragility kind of kills it a little for me, though I don't know how Trollfreak feels considering he just swept clean 6-0 with it XD.
Zoro has been a lot of fun and semi-cool but not wow. That fragility kind of kills it a little for me, though I don't know how Trollfreak feels considering he just swept clean 6-0 with it XD.
That Zoro Sweep!
EDIT- Its a Snorlax Sweep, that SubPlot Lax!
EDIT #2
For FastFlygon, Pory-Z is just amazing as well!
EDIT #3 (People Need to start posting)
+4 Tri Attack OHKOs a Snorlax, O.o
Played some more test games with the team, although I've been testing other things over Zoroark since I'm not sure it's 100% pulling it's weight. Porygon-Z is amazing and I can't believe it's not UU, that much power combined with modest bulk and usable speed is just insanity. I also faced D4RR3N's Poryz team and it swept me with Agility after a Download boost. Even with only +1 it's retarded how strong it is. Trollfreak and I have been using Substitute+Nasty Plot with Leftovers and a Modest nature. We haven't missed the speed too much with paralysis support and Dark Pulse has been doing just fine as coverage. Even though steels resist both moves, they don't really wall Pory; D4RR3N's lefties Magneton got 2HKOd by unboosted Tri-Attack so I'm assuming +2 would handily OHKO; similarly, other steels are just 2HKOd by Tri-Attack. The only thing I can see being a possible issue for the sweep is Escavelier but I haven't seen one, lol. I might actually test that now since we have an immense Shaymin weakness and a slight weakness to opposing Porygon-Z as well. Just need to watch for Magnezone.
70/70 is not modest bulk, it's outright frailty. Seriously, PZ will not take a hit. The last P-Z set I tested in UU was Specs, and while it pulled its weight when Registeel wasn't around, you're going to have to try and compensate for the fact that he cannot switch into anything (making him not much of a team player).
IMO, Download should only be used for Scarf; with Specs, you want at least one reliable attack so that he can come out of the gate threatening instead of waiting for the approval of Download. The +1 boost on Scarf aids lategame sweeping.
IMO, Download should only be used for Scarf; with Specs, you want at least one reliable attack so that he can come out of the gate threatening instead of waiting for the approval of Download. The +1 boost on Scarf aids lategame sweeping.
Porygon-Z is 85/70/75. That's hardly frail. As long as it's relatively healthy it can't be revenged by Flygon's Outrage, for example. I think that simply having Leftovers does wonders for it's bulk, since you can now get some of that 70% back after you KO Flygon. Obviously it's not the kind of bulky you would associate with a tank or something, but it's a comfortable switch into a fair few defensive Pokemon as long as you watch out for Toxic and if it's healthy it's not especially easy to revenge kill. Against a team that's mostly bulky with a single revenge killer for faster threats there have been games where I have tanked a hit, killed the revenge killer and proceeded to sweep or outright decimated the opposing team. I'm not saying Porygon-Z is tough to take out, but it's incorrect to say it can't take a hit at all.
Err, P2 is nowhere near bulky enough to justify using Leftovers. Not even close. Wise Glasses, sure, but getting 6% back after taking 70% from Flygon's Outrage (which everything, even Weavile can survive without prior damage) doesn't mean you're going to survive another hit or stay in another turn on something faster/with priority. And with his best STAB Attack clocking in at 80 BP, he's not going to threaten or sweep much of anything without an item boost.
In my eyes, the difference between "bulky" and "not quite" is taking LO Shaymin's Seed Flare (PZ: 87.1% - 102.6%; Stoutland: 74.6% - 88.1%) or LO Zapdos' Tbolt (PZ:80.1% - 94.5%, Stoutland; 68.8% - 81.4%) without buckling at the knees. For every Gligar EQ PZ can switch into, a bulky sweeper can take at least one more. PZ falls into about the same threshold for physical defense as Weavile does, both being able to take at least three Gligar EQs and one Scarfgon Outrage safely with no prior damage. Sweepers like Zoroark and Sharpedo are one Defense tier below, suffering easy 2HKOs/OHKOs from the very same attacks.
In my eyes, the difference between "bulky" and "not quite" is taking LO Shaymin's Seed Flare (PZ: 87.1% - 102.6%; Stoutland: 74.6% - 88.1%) or LO Zapdos' Tbolt (PZ:80.1% - 94.5%, Stoutland; 68.8% - 81.4%) without buckling at the knees. For every Gligar EQ PZ can switch into, a bulky sweeper can take at least one more. PZ falls into about the same threshold for physical defense as Weavile does, both being able to take at least three Gligar EQs and one Scarfgon Outrage safely with no prior damage. Sweepers like Zoroark and Sharpedo are one Defense tier below, suffering easy 2HKOs/OHKOs from the very same attacks.
Lefties makes a big difference. although you'll still be forced out by something faster in the Flygon example, Porygon-Z in no way misses the extra power (it help that we're Modest, since the team has paralysis support). It's still gets all the 2HKOs and OHKOs it needs and it can se Substitute and play against sand with much greater ease. You'd be suprised how 6.25% a turn adds up; if you get a free sub, you regain half what you spent by the time it's broken, even assuming the opponent breaks it right away. Admittedly this is pretty common, but it means you're sacrificing 12.5% health for Nasty Plot instead of whatever the attack would do. You still 2HKO Snorlax, Umbreon, Empoleon and other special walls at +2, so Life Orb is just extra residual. I'd probably support Life Orb on any set that was timid and/or didn't have Substitute though. You assume after you kill Flygon they bring another faster mon in - not every team has 2 things faster than Porygon-Z lategame, and for those that do you can switch out and still have enough health to come in later and possibly cause some more havoc. It's honestly suprising how much leftovers come in handy despite the seemingly mediocre recovery they provide.
With Sub, Lefties will provide that extra few turns of healing, and if you're running a set with Substitute and a Modest nature, I would definitely recommend carrying lefties. On a timid set, or a set that doesn't have sub (although most do), LO should for sure be considered. Either way, P-Z is going to do a ton of damage after a NP boost. IMO, its just personal preference, either will work well.
Notice I didn't say "Life Orb". I said "item boost". Porygon-Z can get away with Silk Scarf, as it helps him OHKO stuff like Flygon with Tri Attack (Lefties: 79.1% - 93%; Silk Scarf: 93.7% - 111%). Everything with similar defenses to Flygon that you'd normally be able to OHKO, you'll miss with Lefties. Speaking of Sand, if you use Silk Scarf, you can secure a likely OHKO on Stoutland behind the Sub (83.6% - 98.4%), and a likely OHKO on Hippopotas before it Roars you out (91.2% - 107.6%), both after SR.
In order for Leftovers to pay off, you have to assume that PZ is at +2 for everything. That doesn't work out in a do-or-die situation. If you let Nidoking switch in and survive, something is probably going to die. If Snorlax gets a chance to Whirlwind you out, you've defeated the entire purpose of Leftovers. It might have worked well enough in your test matches, but it's still suboptimal, to say the least.
In order for Leftovers to pay off, you have to assume that PZ is at +2 for everything. That doesn't work out in a do-or-die situation. If you let Nidoking switch in and survive, something is probably going to die. If Snorlax gets a chance to Whirlwind you out, you've defeated the entire purpose of Leftovers. It might have worked well enough in your test matches, but it's still suboptimal, to say the least.
I don't use Porygon-Z at all but I know it becomes insanely hard to kill with a defensive team when it holds leftovers. I've won so many games that I would have lost because my opponent used NP LO Azelf and PZ instead of leftovers. Too much of the time I try to "play around" PZ by setting up T-Spikes, pivoting or stuff like that but Leftovers makes that almost a non-issue because with just a single Nasty Plot it can plow right through me. Not only does Leftovers heal PZ but it takes away reisdual damage from Life Orb which means on every turn you are attacking at 94% or less health then you are gaining basically 16% back. Anything that can double its attack in one turn should consider using Leftovers to pose a bigger threat to teams that rely on residual damage to hurt it. Really if you're doubling attack already are you sure you need even more power?
Against defensive teams, you must also take into account that every time Porygon-Z fails to kill something, he takes an attack, status or otherwise. For example: Porygon-Z with Leftovers fails to OHKO a full health Clefable, whereas Modest Life Orb KOs 100%. He then takes a Thunder Wave for his troubles and becomes a non-threat from that point on. The same thing could happen with Snorlax's Body Slam, Togekiss, or Cresselia.
Second, being Modest base 90 in a Roserade metagame is like being Adamant Scarf Flygon in a Salamence metagame. At this point, I think that full Timid LO is best for him. That way, you won't have to worry about Nidoking, Kingdra, or Heracross either.
Second, being Modest base 90 in a Roserade metagame is like being Adamant Scarf Flygon in a Salamence metagame. At this point, I think that full Timid LO is best for him. That way, you won't have to worry about Nidoking, Kingdra, or Heracross either.
And why can't you force switches? Porygon-z is pretty damn scary for a duck, every time I see it I feel like switching. Not to mention defensive Roserade and Claydol and bulky waters can't do much to it just to name a few.
I agree. Porygon-Z is in one of the more crucial speed tiers in UU. By giving him Modest, you are just asking to lose to some of the most prominent threats in UU at the moment, and many games in my experience often come down to one of these pokemon vs. the other, with the faster one coming out on top. A 10% boost in power isn't helpful if you don't even get to attack before being KO'd.
Exactly, for example, a modest nature agili pz is just a few speed points from outspeeding jolly stoutland in sand. However, modest does have extra power that if jolly, cannot 2 hit empoleon after a NP.
How do people stop Venomoth with sash? I find it hard to check it without Snorlax.
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