Flamethrower is better than Fire Blast, it OHKOes Aegilslash 100% of the time in the sun and is 100% accurate. There is no gain from Fire Blast over Flamethrower.
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Restricted Legends Tiering Discussion
- Thread starter Serapis
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No gain? Um... 110 BP as compared to 90 BP? Fire Blast is better for wall breaking the likes of Cresselia, Xerneas, and others. Flamethrower can be used as a more accurate option, but in my opinion Fire Blast is better.
If you're looking to wallbreak Overheat is better lol
0 SpA Primal Groudon Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 100+ SpD Cresselia in Harsh Sunshine: 73-87 (32.1 - 38.3%) -- 95.7% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Primal Groudon Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 100+ SpD Cresselia in Harsh Sunshine: 88-105 (38.7 - 46.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Primal Groudon Overheat vs. 252 HP / 100+ SpD Cresselia in Harsh Sunshine: 106-126 (46.6 - 55.5%) -- 68.8% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Primal Groudon Flamethrower vs. +2 184 HP / 0 SpD Xerneas in Harsh Sunshine: 57-67 (25.4 - 29.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
0 SpA Primal Groudon Fire Blast vs. +2 184 HP / 0 SpD Xerneas in Harsh Sunshine: 67-81 (29.9 - 36.1%) -- 40% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Primal Groudon Overheat vs. +2 184 HP / 0 SpD Xerneas in Harsh Sunshine: 81-96 (36.1 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Not to mention additional chip damage on those mons would make Overheat pretty much better for completely wallbreaking things than Fire Blast, and Flamethrower gets pretty much the same KOs as Fire Blast, and when it really does matter there's always damage from switch-ins and partners. Plus Cresselia can be such a big momentum suck that you really won't care to wallbreak it.
Also who is Overheating a +2 Xerneas in the first place? You should be hitting it with Precipice Blades.
252+ SpA Primal Groudon Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Cresselia in Harsh Sunshine: 84-100 (37 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Primal Groudon Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Cresselia in Harsh Sunshine: 103-123 (45.3 - 54.1%) -- 44.5% chance to 2HKO
not much of difference considering cresselia can do nothing to P-Groundon.
252+ SpA Primal Groudon Flamethrower vs. +2 252 HP / 0 SpD Xerneas in Harsh Sunshine: 73-87 (31.3 - 37.3%) -- 79.7% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Primal Groudon Fire Blast vs. +2 252 HP / 0 SpD Xerneas in Harsh Sunshine: 88-105 (37.7 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
again considering Xerneas can 2HKO with just a Modest nature at +2 with Moon Blast, relying on guaranteed 3HKO rather than 79.7% really doesn't make it much better of check. Special P-Groundon is a soft check to Xerneas.
I will happily take the lower damage output -Which doesn't even matter in your examples- for greater PP and accuracy. Also what others nothing other than P-Kyogre wants to be taking on P-Groundon, and even that can't take too many Precipice Blades.
252+ SpA Primal Groudon Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Cresselia in Harsh Sunshine: 103-123 (45.3 - 54.1%) -- 44.5% chance to 2HKO
not much of difference considering cresselia can do nothing to P-Groundon.
252+ SpA Primal Groudon Flamethrower vs. +2 252 HP / 0 SpD Xerneas in Harsh Sunshine: 73-87 (31.3 - 37.3%) -- 79.7% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Primal Groudon Fire Blast vs. +2 252 HP / 0 SpD Xerneas in Harsh Sunshine: 88-105 (37.7 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
again considering Xerneas can 2HKO with just a Modest nature at +2 with Moon Blast, relying on guaranteed 3HKO rather than 79.7% really doesn't make it much better of check. Special P-Groundon is a soft check to Xerneas.
I will happily take the lower damage output -Which doesn't even matter in your examples- for greater PP and accuracy. Also what others nothing other than P-Kyogre wants to be taking on P-Groundon, and even that can't take too many Precipice Blades.
i don't know this tier but i gotta say these are a pair of excellent posts, like
like flamethrower might still be better than fire blast but this is a really odd way to go about conclusively proving it. You need at least a tad more than this?
I too like to set up Substitutes and then cut my own Special Attack. And if you didn't see that his set was Substitute, maybe you should've looked at the entire conversation before butting in ?
Yeah pretty sure you didn't look at his set
and ninja'd a bit so let's look at the next rock solid post:
Yeah, luckily the mere presence of a Primal Groudon renders your partner impervious to Thunder Wave and Icy Wind, makes the usage of Trick Room impossible, and stops Moonlight from working, who knew? (And yes, Fire Blast doesn't 2HKO if he clicks moonlight the first time, but the 2HKO means your partner can protect once and not have to worry, assuming you outspeed Cress which i would try to do)
Xerneas doesn't care that much either way, but keep in mind that again you do have a partner so the extra damage might come in handy. Still, against xerneas in particular Flamethrower is a solid option.
like flamethrower might still be better than fire blast but this is a really odd way to go about conclusively proving it. You need at least a tad more than this?
I too like to set up Substitutes and then cut my own Special Attack. And if you didn't see that his set was Substitute, maybe you should've looked at the entire conversation before butting in ?
derivatives said:
Yeah pretty sure you didn't look at his set
and ninja'd a bit so let's look at the next rock solid post:
Yeah, luckily the mere presence of a Primal Groudon renders your partner impervious to Thunder Wave and Icy Wind, makes the usage of Trick Room impossible, and stops Moonlight from working, who knew? (And yes, Fire Blast doesn't 2HKO if he clicks moonlight the first time, but the 2HKO means your partner can protect once and not have to worry, assuming you outspeed Cress which i would try to do)
Xerneas doesn't care that much either way, but keep in mind that again you do have a partner so the extra damage might come in handy. Still, against xerneas in particular Flamethrower is a solid option.
After Overheat Special Attack drops, it'll still be a 3HKO or more. Don't Overheat a boosted Xern lol.
Looking back at his set I do realize this.
Though
>sub special
"I like staying in and letting Primal Kyogre switch in for free without me beating it"
w/o Substitute Groudon gets killed by Kyogre no matter what, with Sub it can at least live one hit. If you'd rather run a situational coverage move that will be useful in only a handful of matches, be my guest. Otherwise Substitute is the better, more consistent option.
It doesn't end that simply though; it loses to Primal Groudon and faces difficulty with Yveltal, and it doesn't even hit that hard. Offensive steels don't tend to be that great in the meta game if one of the types they pretty much rely on is steel, especially when the other type it relies on is dragon, as both hit neutrally on a lot of targets for little damage. Not only that, it requires Adamant Orb to hit as hard as it already does, forcing the item slot out to increase its damage output.
In fact that doesn't even look A- worthy, it should be a bit lower. Maybe B or B+ would be fitting.
In fact that doesn't even look A- worthy, it should be a bit lower. Maybe B or B+ would be fitting.
Both Mewtwos from A- to B
I have yet to see anyone use either Mewtwo successfully. They are both relatively frail and use a mega spot, where it faces stiff competition.
Dialga, Giratina-O, and Yveltal from B to A-
Dialga is arguably the best TR setter. Cress is great, but doesn't have have the offensive ability. Dialga can 2ko Groudon with earth power, which is huge. It needs a little support, but so does everything that's not Groudon or Xerneas. It's better than all the other B tier pokemon (other than the next two I talk about).
Giratina-O is the only hard counter to Primal Groudon. It has tailwind, icy wind, gravity, and will-o-wisp for support. It's pretty darn bulky. It can hit all sorts of stuff hard with Shadow Force, or it can go special with calm mind. I've been playing with it and love it so far. It does lose to Xerneas, but most things do 1v1. It can survive a hit from an unboosted Xerneas, set up TR, and then use shadow force to break protect next turn, allowing a teammate to KO it. Most things lose to Geo-boosted Xerneas, that can't be held against it. Ev'd right, it beats Rayquaza as well.
I've heard good things about Yveltal. Swagger helps it a lot, but isn't required. It's generally powerful enough to put a dent in a lot of the common threats in the meta. I haven't used this one, but I've heard good enough things about it to believe that it deserves to be higher than stuff like Mewtwo.
I have yet to see anyone use either Mewtwo successfully. They are both relatively frail and use a mega spot, where it faces stiff competition.
Dialga, Giratina-O, and Yveltal from B to A-
Dialga is arguably the best TR setter. Cress is great, but doesn't have have the offensive ability. Dialga can 2ko Groudon with earth power, which is huge. It needs a little support, but so does everything that's not Groudon or Xerneas. It's better than all the other B tier pokemon (other than the next two I talk about).
Giratina-O is the only hard counter to Primal Groudon. It has tailwind, icy wind, gravity, and will-o-wisp for support. It's pretty darn bulky. It can hit all sorts of stuff hard with Shadow Force, or it can go special with calm mind. I've been playing with it and love it so far. It does lose to Xerneas, but most things do 1v1. It can survive a hit from an unboosted Xerneas, set up TR, and then use shadow force to break protect next turn, allowing a teammate to KO it. Most things lose to Geo-boosted Xerneas, that can't be held against it. Ev'd right, it beats Rayquaza as well.
I've heard good things about Yveltal. Swagger helps it a lot, but isn't required. It's generally powerful enough to put a dent in a lot of the common threats in the meta. I haven't used this one, but I've heard good enough things about it to believe that it deserves to be higher than stuff like Mewtwo.
I agree with Dialga, though for the others I'm not so convinced. Giratina-O gets rekt by Xerneas, one of the most popular (if not the most popular) mons in the meta. Solely because of that, I don't think its A- material. On top of that, however, it isn't particularly powerful without a Calm Mind boost, and who runs Shadow Force lol. The same can be said about Yveltal. I don't have extensive experience using these mons, however. This is just my pitch.
EDIT: idk about Mega Mewtwo Y, its p good. Mega Mewtwo X should probably drop to B- or lower.
uh, almost everyone? It's a free feint as well
Shadow Force is so predictable and means you can't really hit teams that have kangaskhan that well. It's also wasting a turn just to get ready to fail in hitting your target
What Derivatives said. Maybe instead of picking out a fragment of what I said provide a counter argument. Also, what's "a free feint"?
Shadow Force lifts the protection effect of Protect, Wide Guard, King's Shield and friends ...like Feint does (without having to use Feint).
Because I didn't disagree with the rest of your post.
sorry just got out of debate and feel like being overly aggressive on an internet forum about a children's game
I can't speak for Mewtwo-Y, I just haven't actually seen anyone run it. I figured it isn't common enough to be ranked that high.
Getting wrecked by Xerneas doesn't mean it's a bad pokemon. Most pokemon can't take a hit from boosted Xerneas. Giritina-o can actually take a hit from unboosted Xerneas. If a pokemon could beat Xerneas, Kang, AND Groudon, it would be in S tier easily. There is no such pokemon. Beating 2/3 puts it ahead of most of the pokemon in the game. As for Shadow Force, I haven't had that problem because I run 2 fighting types on my team with it. Keep in mind your opponent doesn't know which pokemon you're targeting. It stops BOTH pokemon from using protect that turn. Even if Kang switches in, it can't do anything against giratina-o, and just gets hit by a will-o-wisp or gets set up on. No big deal.
Yveltal is a pokemon I haven't actually used, but it seems like its being used more than the pokemon in B tier and as much as the pokemon in A- tier. It matched up well with Kang and Groudon, especially with swagger support. Dark aura is good, and his sucker punch is the strongest priority move in the game. Foul Play is great in a meta filled with physical threats. It also can support pokemon with tailwind.No, it doesn't beat Xerneas. If it did, it would be A tier. Pair it with something that does, and you've got a decent core.
Take what I'm about to say with a grain of salt. In actuality, this is more of me asking what the following Pokemon DO to deserve the rank more than anything. An explanation would be perfect for me.
As others have said here, I'm a bit iffy with MM2X being the same rank as MM2Y. IMHO, I don't see how it brings anywhere near as much as MM2Y does.
Granted:
- It has the highest Attack stat in the game,
- great speed
- stupidly strong Low Kick along with
- a high SpA stat to even go mixed
...not to mention that it gets hit neutrally by Dark as opposed to its other Mewtwo brethren. It even has a small (but not necessarily good) benefit of getting to +1 speed if it gets flinched via Fake Out thanks to its ability Steadfast.
However, I feel that's where the good things come to an end.
- With the fighting type, it gains pretty dastardly weaknesses to both Fairy and Flying, two of the most dangerous weaknesses to have with Xerneas, Yveltal, Ho-Oh and (Mega) Rayquaza running rampant in the meta.
- Even with its sky-high Attack stat, it fails to OHKO a lot in the tier due to a relatively poor physical movepool and no real way to boost its Attack outside Bulk Up which is lolbad.
- Psychic type in general is a very meh STAB in this tier, hitting absolutely nothing in this VR for super effective damage (this pretty much goes for all 3 Mewtwo forms tbh).
-Zen Headbutt isn't even that great of a coverage option to begin with because of this. Having the highest attack in the game matters not when it does neutral damage at absolutely best to most of the tier. It can also miss, which sucks shit.
Meanwhile...
MM2Y, despite still being a somewhat suboptimal choice due to having a similar issue with Mega Rayquayquay with opportunity cost regarding the 2 Ubers and 1 mega slots (something MM2X also shares and is worse than this form), has more going for it.
-Probably the highest natural speed stat of any VIABLE Pokemon in VGC 2016. With a vast support move pool (not limited to MM2Y but eh), it can get off what it needs to do faster than anything outside prankster mons. It also has a fast Taunt. #RIP Smeargle
-Being a Special Attacker, unlike MM2X, isn't as affected by Intimidate, burns and Swagger. Mewtwo also has a higher Special move pool than it does physical, with Psystrike, Aura Sphere, Shadow Ball, Thunder, Grass Knot and more all in its arsenal.
-Insomnia is a great ability to have in a metagame where sleep status can be highly detrimental for any given team. Being immune to it is fantastic. #RIP
SMEARGLE
It isn't without problems though...
-Its lowered defense makes it more prone to priority, whether it's Sucker Punch (especially Dark Aura-boosted ones) from Yveltal, Mega Kanga andMega Mawile or Extremespeed from (Mega) Rayquaza. Primal Groudon's Precipice Blades is also doing more towards it.
-Psychic, again, is a really subpar STAB, but at least Psystrike is way better than lolzenheadbutt.
-Despite it having the highest SpA in the game, Life Orb Mewtwo actually hits harder. Base Mewtwo also has a better Def stat and doesn't take a mega slot.
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Now, I don't really know where to put them because I haven't really got in too far in to the meta just yet, but I strongly don't agree with both of the mega Mewtwos not only being so high in rank but being IN the same rank as each other as well. MM2Y, wherever it ends up, needs to always be higher than MM2X. From what I can gather, X offers nothing in comparison to Y.
As others have said here, I'm a bit iffy with MM2X being the same rank as MM2Y. IMHO, I don't see how it brings anywhere near as much as MM2Y does.
Granted:
- It has the highest Attack stat in the game,
- great speed
- stupidly strong Low Kick along with
- a high SpA stat to even go mixed
...not to mention that it gets hit neutrally by Dark as opposed to its other Mewtwo brethren. It even has a small (but not necessarily good) benefit of getting to +1 speed if it gets flinched via Fake Out thanks to its ability Steadfast.
However, I feel that's where the good things come to an end.
- With the fighting type, it gains pretty dastardly weaknesses to both Fairy and Flying, two of the most dangerous weaknesses to have with Xerneas, Yveltal, Ho-Oh and (Mega) Rayquaza running rampant in the meta.
- Even with its sky-high Attack stat, it fails to OHKO a lot in the tier due to a relatively poor physical movepool and no real way to boost its Attack outside Bulk Up which is lolbad.
- Psychic type in general is a very meh STAB in this tier, hitting absolutely nothing in this VR for super effective damage (this pretty much goes for all 3 Mewtwo forms tbh).
-Zen Headbutt isn't even that great of a coverage option to begin with because of this. Having the highest attack in the game matters not when it does neutral damage at absolutely best to most of the tier. It can also miss, which sucks shit.
Meanwhile...
MM2Y, despite still being a somewhat suboptimal choice due to having a similar issue with Mega Rayquayquay with opportunity cost regarding the 2 Ubers and 1 mega slots (something MM2X also shares and is worse than this form), has more going for it.
-Probably the highest natural speed stat of any VIABLE Pokemon in VGC 2016. With a vast support move pool (not limited to MM2Y but eh), it can get off what it needs to do faster than anything outside prankster mons. It also has a fast Taunt. #RIP Smeargle
-Being a Special Attacker, unlike MM2X, isn't as affected by Intimidate, burns and Swagger. Mewtwo also has a higher Special move pool than it does physical, with Psystrike, Aura Sphere, Shadow Ball, Thunder, Grass Knot and more all in its arsenal.
-Insomnia is a great ability to have in a metagame where sleep status can be highly detrimental for any given team. Being immune to it is fantastic. #RIP
SMEARGLE
It isn't without problems though...
-Its lowered defense makes it more prone to priority, whether it's Sucker Punch (especially Dark Aura-boosted ones) from Yveltal, Mega Kanga andMega Mawile or Extremespeed from (Mega) Rayquaza. Primal Groudon's Precipice Blades is also doing more towards it.
-Psychic, again, is a really subpar STAB, but at least Psystrike is way better than lolzenheadbutt.
-Despite it having the highest SpA in the game, Life Orb Mewtwo actually hits harder. Base Mewtwo also has a better Def stat and doesn't take a mega slot.
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Now, I don't really know where to put them because I haven't really got in too far in to the meta just yet, but I strongly don't agree with both of the mega Mewtwos not only being so high in rank but being IN the same rank as each other as well. MM2Y, wherever it ends up, needs to always be higher than MM2X. From what I can gather, X offers nothing in comparison to Y.
I think that both need to be moved down because neither one can afford to switch in to anything worth a shit and both lose to Yveltal/Mawile/Mega Kangaskhan (MM2X doesn't)/Pdon (Psychic MM2Y doesn't)/Xerneas/Mega Rayquaza really really really hard and cannot touch Sableye. MM2Y may have Insomnia going for it but why waste the mega slot on just beating smeargle and dealing a lot of damage when you could almost do the same with Kangaskhan (since kanga loses to scarf)?
This sounds like a good idea. Although, I do like the idea of having 2 separate lists because you can only choose a maximum 2 of the Ubers and would essentially have to choose the other 4 from the other list.
TBH, most of the minimally viable Ubers (Mewtwo-Y and Lugia for example) are leaps and bounds over high ranked VGC15 mons like Cresselia and Rotom-H, so we'd have a bunch of S-ranks like Khan, Pdon, Mega Ray, Xerneas, Yveltal, Giratina, etc. and pretty much everything else except Zygarde (Whom I shall make S+, prepare your buttholes) crowding A/A+ and making things like Azumarill look relatively low. I guess there's the 'opportunity cost' stance, but can we really say that something like Entei or Zapdos is truly better than Dialga, even though Dialga eats an Uber Slot you could use on Pdon/Xern?
I'd rather have one condensed thread, as above, but with perhaps two rankings for anything that consumes an Uber slot; listed under S/A/B etc rank as they compare to everything in the metagame (Like Aegislash, Khan, Mence, Landog) and how they compare to other Ubers. Like this, roughly:
S Rank
Mega Kangaskhan
Xerneas (S)
Yveltal (A+)
Mega Mewtwo Y (B)
Primal Groudon (S)
Primal Kyogre (A+)
Mega Mewtwo Y is just a tad stronger than things like Rotom-H, no? But compared to other Ubers, like Dialga or Xerneas, it's fairly low in viabiity, hence the (B). Yveltal is a metric fuckton better than stuff like Gengar or Ferrothorn, and even compared to fellow Ubers would be a very viable choice, but perhaps not as insane as Xern.
Or just rank it all S/A/B/C/etc with opportunity cost considered and slap Mega Mewtwo Y together with the forever-walled-by-Pdon Rotom formes.
Then we have poor Zygarde, who's actually on par with things like Zapdos and Entei and could be fairly rated in A/B territory, but gets utterly demolished by opportunity cost of not running Pdon or Xerneas.
I'd rather have one condensed thread, as above, but with perhaps two rankings for anything that consumes an Uber slot; listed under S/A/B etc rank as they compare to everything in the metagame (Like Aegislash, Khan, Mence, Landog) and how they compare to other Ubers. Like this, roughly:
S Rank
Mega Kangaskhan
Xerneas (S)
Yveltal (A+)
Mega Mewtwo Y (B)
Primal Groudon (S)
Primal Kyogre (A+)
Mega Mewtwo Y is just a tad stronger than things like Rotom-H, no? But compared to other Ubers, like Dialga or Xerneas, it's fairly low in viabiity, hence the (B). Yveltal is a metric fuckton better than stuff like Gengar or Ferrothorn, and even compared to fellow Ubers would be a very viable choice, but perhaps not as insane as Xern.
Or just rank it all S/A/B/C/etc with opportunity cost considered and slap Mega Mewtwo Y together with the forever-walled-by-Pdon Rotom formes.
Then we have poor Zygarde, who's actually on par with things like Zapdos and Entei and could be fairly rated in A/B territory, but gets utterly demolished by opportunity cost of not running Pdon or Xerneas.
I think that two different threads are the better approach, since team building in this format is pretty unique ("Pick up to two monsters from Category A and fill the remaining team slots with synergistic stuff from Category B").
Of course no one is forcing you to take this approach when building a team, but it seems to be the most viable at this point in time. At least to me.
These restricted legendaries are not really competing for team slots with Aegislash, Cresselia, Landorus-T, Whimsicott, etc..., but primarily with each other.
That being said,
I think that the viable non-restricted Mega Pokémon like Kangaskhan, Mawile and Salamence should be added to this list here, since they actually are competing for team slots with some of these "Ubers".
Of course no one is forcing you to take this approach when building a team, but it seems to be the most viable at this point in time. At least to me.
These restricted legendaries are not really competing for team slots with Aegislash, Cresselia, Landorus-T, Whimsicott, etc..., but primarily with each other.
That being said,
I think that the viable non-restricted Mega Pokémon like Kangaskhan, Mawile and Salamence should be added to this list here, since they actually are competing for team slots with some of these "Ubers".
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