I use M-Absol too. Togekiss too. He loves spreading joy to all those gloomy dark-types.
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Other Return of the Son of Paraflinch!
- Thread starter Quixim
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I have already shown that paralysis snowballs worse.
Kriptini: It doesn't stack, but adding in the serene grace flinch chance means you have a lesser chance of hitting than maxed out evasion, if I'm reading the statistics right. Also, even if you can't paralyze, if you're going first, just the flinch chance itself drops you to 40% chance of any action, which precludes every single move in the game without priority. The fact that priority is -already- a useful aspect of the metagame is one of the biggest reasons paraflinch is already in - people are complaining about being FORCED to use a 60 BP move, but really a priority move is just 40 BP to begin with.
Funnily enough, either way you go, talonflame is pretty much able to shut down either tactic, even if he -is- paralyzed.
Funnily enough, either way you go, talonflame is pretty much able to shut down either tactic, even if he -is- paralyzed.
AFAIK, we were just talking about paralysis, not paraflinch.
Persian and Ambipom both have STAB, Technician-boosted Swift which can be further boosted by Nasty Plot. Roserade has STAB, Technician-boosted Magical Leaf. On the subject of new additions, MegaLucario has Adaptability boosted Aura Sphere.They would be very effective at their job, if that job existed.
On Parafusion, MegaKhan is a really good idea. I've been running Bite on mine to hit ghosts, and for the flinch chance if I have nothing else to fall back on; combined with Stomp/Fake Out|Power Up Punch/T-Wave, he could actually run a very similar set to Togekiss which I never thought about...
^ Thats real interesting with a Mega-Kang Paraflinch, his tankiness on top of that means that he can usually take a hit which slips past.
I still stand to say that an electric-type will completely ruin this strategy and that a ground type also counters the majority which are both rather commonly used types which evasion doesn't have to worry about (but for now can we please stop the evasion war going on, find/make a more usable thread and we can discuss it there). And may I just say the my DW Own Tempo Numel stomps on all you Parafusioners
I still stand to say that an electric-type will completely ruin this strategy and that a ground type also counters the majority which are both rather commonly used types which evasion doesn't have to worry about (but for now can we please stop the evasion war going on, find/make a more usable thread and we can discuss it there). And may I just say the my DW Own Tempo Numel stomps on all you Parafusioners
Ain't stopping me!!!
1. You have shown absolutely nothing with that "calculation" because it's not only based on the opponent playing bad, but it doesn't even work anymore after a kill; Once your paraflincher kill something or the opponent switches out, he's back at 100% hit chance, Evasion, on the other hand, stays the same, THAT'S what snowballing is about; Not only that every time you miss, it boosts further, once an evasion boosting mon grabbed a few boosts, it get's increasingly harder for every consecutive pokemon to beat it. That simply isn't true for paraflinch.
2. No, it isn't because it suddenly turns all electric pokemon into hard counters to paraflinch.
3. That's a non-sequitor; Unless ALL pokemon in your team carry roar/whirlwind/100% moves, it's always possible to grab at least one boost, and that can already be enough to go to town, especially since double team is so common that it's hard to prepare for all of them.
4. & 5. :Both anti-evasion-moves and anti-evasion-abilities are generally highly specialized, meaning they're useless against everything that isn't evasion-boosting and/or have a very limited distribution, with phazing being the sole exception; Not only that, but they are even quite likely to fail to actually counter that ONLY threat they do anything at all against; 100% moves have a very low base power, phazing always moves last, meaning the opponent can always baton-pass OR just OHKO(which isn't to unlikely since the amount of decent phazers in most tiers is limited, meaning you can specifically prepare your moves/choose your booster to beat them), Keen Eye only works against accuracy-lowering , which is already legal etc.
So, the only way for them to become decent would be if evasion-boosting would become so dominating that you run into it all the time - which is already a bad thing in itself.
6.Who even said that?
Also, aside from your "counter-arguments" failing to actually counter arguments, you even state several things that are factually wrong or severely misleading:
1. Sand Attack isn't banned, and a completely different thing from Evasion boosting
2.Keen Eye doesn't work against evasion boosting - the strategy we're talking about - but only against accuracy lowering, a strategy that, as already stated, isn't illegal
3.Body Slam doesn't flinch, it paralyzes - and that with a chance of only 60%. The moves you're looking for are Air Slash and Iron Head, which are the only 30%-flinch moves that are accessible to most serene-grace users(with the exception of great attackers like dunsparce or blissey, who have access to a few others). Both Air Slash and Iron Head are resisted be Electric Types.. Seeing a pattern there?
4.Not even mentioning minimize, which is an all-around better double team, is EXTREMELY misleading when your point is that evasion-boosting "isn't that bad".
5.Actually, the whole comparing-paraflinch-to-evasion-boosting is misleading because only very few pokemon have access to paraflinch & they have definite hard counters. Also, as said, there is no noteworthy snowballing with paraflinch. Evasion-boosting, on the other hand, is even more common than other usable boosting moves, therefore quite likely to make even your designated counters fail, and, well, snowballing.
Not to mention all the other differences, like the fact that paraflincher need to continously attack with the same move over and over or that simply switching out resets everything again.
Both Ambipom and Persian have so terrible spA that they're not much stronger than a swift from any other pokemon. Only Roserade and MegaLucario have legitimately decent 100% moves, but both still aren't hard counters; MegaLucario can''t deal with ANY Ghost that's evasion boosting, and also some mons resisting fighting, Roserade not with any mon resisting grass OR outspeeding and OHKOing it, which isn't to unlikely given its middling speed and meager defenses.
I know I stated a few things several times, but they simply were too important on several different points.
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CQC Not to detract from your argument, but Keen Eye was changed this generation to also ignore evasion boosts entirely. Easy to see how that can be overlooked, but it's still worth noting.
Additionally, this might not be correct, but paraflinching and evasion-boosting are two totally different beasts, if you examine things differently.
Paraflinching is more consistent and reliable due to having remarkably good odds of working for the amount of set up it has(one turn of paralyzing) and flexible amount of execution (flinching moves). It has its counters, yes, but on the Pokemon it works on, it's reliable enough to have become its own strategy.
Evasion boosting is a lot more fickle, especially since the first evasion boost isn't guaranteed to "block" a hit, and doesn't directly hinder the attacker, which means if the strategy is foiled, then you literally have nothing to show for it, while paraflinching will at least paralyze something before getting KO'd/phased out. If evasion has its way, however, then the evading Pokemon can become far more deadly than paraflinching, especially if the opposing team lost its phaser.
If this changes how some of you view this issue or invokes more healthy discussion, then my job is done.
Additionally, this might not be correct, but paraflinching and evasion-boosting are two totally different beasts, if you examine things differently.
Paraflinching is more consistent and reliable due to having remarkably good odds of working for the amount of set up it has(one turn of paralyzing) and flexible amount of execution (flinching moves). It has its counters, yes, but on the Pokemon it works on, it's reliable enough to have become its own strategy.
Evasion boosting is a lot more fickle, especially since the first evasion boost isn't guaranteed to "block" a hit, and doesn't directly hinder the attacker, which means if the strategy is foiled, then you literally have nothing to show for it, while paraflinching will at least paralyze something before getting KO'd/phased out. If evasion has its way, however, then the evading Pokemon can become far more deadly than paraflinching, especially if the opposing team lost its phaser.
If this changes how some of you view this issue or invokes more healthy discussion, then my job is done.
tbh evasion boosting is never a 100% guaranteed strategy, and it can be massively. ruined by someone actually managing to hit with their 80%~ Thunderbolt or whatever. Both strategies are a gamble. Paraflinch and Parafusion have a more immediate payoff, however evasion boosting is both more risky and more rewarding.
PARAFLINCH TOGEKISS:
T1 Thunder Wave = quarters speed and 25% chance to not hit
T2 Air Slash = 25% chance to not hit and of the remaining 75%, 60% of those times they don't hit, so on turn 2 you have a 70% chance to succeed at immobilizing on that turn, which is re-rolled every turn after.
PARAFUSION KLEFKI:
T1 Swagger = 50% chance to not hit
T2 Thunder Wave = 50% chance to not hit (assuming they don't snap out), of the remaining 50%, 25% don't hit, so you have a 62.5% chance to succeed at immobilizing, getting up a Substitute or hitting them with Foul Play.
Now, for Evasion boosting, this can happen from any 'mon but I'm going to use a worst case scenario from a Clefable with Minimize versing say, a Breloom with Spore trying to put an end to it. This is just an example scenario, I realize Evasion can be a lot more dangerous than this (and that I'd probably just Moonblast the Breloom while I have the chance) but it illustrates the risk involved with Evasion boosting in the early stages.
MINIMIZE CLEFABLE:
T1 Minimize = Evasion boosted by 2 stages, Spore is at 60% accuracy. So, 60% of the time, Clefable gets put to sleep. OF THE REMAINING 40%...
T2 Minimize = Evasion boosted by 2 stages, Spore is at 42.85% accuracy. 42.85% of the time, the chain gets ended here. So currently, the chances of a sleeping clefable on turns 1 or 2 of this strategy is 60% + (42.85% of 40% =)17.14%...77.14%. Of the remaining 22.86% of the time...
T3 Minimize = Evasion boosted by 2 stages, Spore is at 33.33% accuracy. 33.33% of the time, you've got one dodgy ass sleeping Clefable. So, the running tally is 77.14% + (33.33% of 22.86% =) 7.62%...
84.76% of the time, Spore is going to hit at least once in those 3 turns, and inversely, 15.24% of the time you've got a really scary Clefable with a 140 power Stored Power that only gets hit 33.33% of the time by attacks that should always hit. This calculation ALSO APPLIES if the opponent switches out T1 to something that is faster than Clefable. However, if he switches to something slower, the numbers start to look a lot more worrying.
T1 Minimize = Evasion boosted by 2 stages. Switch out to a Parasect, nothing happens.
T2 Minimize = Evasion boosted by 2 stages. Parasect uses Spore at 42.85% accuracy. 42.85% of the time, the chain ends here. 57.15% of the time, the chain continues, to...
T3 Minimize = Evasion boosted by 2 stages. Parasect uses Spore at 33.33% accuracy. 33.33% of the time the chain ends here, so in total, the chances of not having a really worrying Clefable is 42.85% + (33.33% of 57.15% =) 19.05%...61.9% of the time.
38.1% of the time, you get the full set up. That switch in over DOUBLES your chances to set up the requisite Evasion boosts, but the odds of this happening are still not in your favor.
The only way to tip the odds in your favor for this Minimize strategy to work would be, say, if you switch in Clefable just after a choice banded Salamence has killed something with Outrage, and just keep boosting up as it outrages and switches. You'll then have that 33.33% chance right from the get go, so that's a 66.66% chance to survive the boosting stage.
This isn't a perfect example, however; it only really works for Spore and moves that would OHKO. When 2HKOs and beyond get involved, the odds are increasingly tipped in the favor of the Minimizer (That said, they also get tipped in the favor of the Paraflinchers and Parafusioners in that case.)
The most important distinguishing feature is that Parafusion/flinch immobilizes singular opponents FAR more quickly AND EFFECTIVELY, however Evasion boosters, while working slower, have much more of a sustained payoff, as after they get boosted up, that boost applies until they switch out or are phased out. Evasion also gives Pokemon the freedom to do things other than Air Slash, which does give it the upper hand on Paraflinch strategies, as they can heal/Substitute up, or boost other stats in relative safety. This is, however, a trait shared with Parafusion users such as Sableye or even Murkrow. (Baton Passing Parafusion Tail Glow Illumise anyone? ANYONE? *crickets*)
I rather like Parafusion in this generation, as there are so many new strategies which essentially take luck out of the equation; for example, Aegislash's SD set can be very hard to counter if it gets even one turn going in its favor. Getting a free turn against an Aegislash (Or a DD Dragonite, etc etc) can give your team a new lease on life through a calculated gamble, when outplaying your opponent by other means has ceased to be a feasable option.
PARAFLINCH TOGEKISS:
T1 Thunder Wave = quarters speed and 25% chance to not hit
T2 Air Slash = 25% chance to not hit and of the remaining 75%, 60% of those times they don't hit, so on turn 2 you have a 70% chance to succeed at immobilizing on that turn, which is re-rolled every turn after.
PARAFUSION KLEFKI:
T1 Swagger = 50% chance to not hit
T2 Thunder Wave = 50% chance to not hit (assuming they don't snap out), of the remaining 50%, 25% don't hit, so you have a 62.5% chance to succeed at immobilizing, getting up a Substitute or hitting them with Foul Play.
Now, for Evasion boosting, this can happen from any 'mon but I'm going to use a worst case scenario from a Clefable with Minimize versing say, a Breloom with Spore trying to put an end to it. This is just an example scenario, I realize Evasion can be a lot more dangerous than this (and that I'd probably just Moonblast the Breloom while I have the chance) but it illustrates the risk involved with Evasion boosting in the early stages.
MINIMIZE CLEFABLE:
T1 Minimize = Evasion boosted by 2 stages, Spore is at 60% accuracy. So, 60% of the time, Clefable gets put to sleep. OF THE REMAINING 40%...
T2 Minimize = Evasion boosted by 2 stages, Spore is at 42.85% accuracy. 42.85% of the time, the chain gets ended here. So currently, the chances of a sleeping clefable on turns 1 or 2 of this strategy is 60% + (42.85% of 40% =)17.14%...77.14%. Of the remaining 22.86% of the time...
T3 Minimize = Evasion boosted by 2 stages, Spore is at 33.33% accuracy. 33.33% of the time, you've got one dodgy ass sleeping Clefable. So, the running tally is 77.14% + (33.33% of 22.86% =) 7.62%...
84.76% of the time, Spore is going to hit at least once in those 3 turns, and inversely, 15.24% of the time you've got a really scary Clefable with a 140 power Stored Power that only gets hit 33.33% of the time by attacks that should always hit. This calculation ALSO APPLIES if the opponent switches out T1 to something that is faster than Clefable. However, if he switches to something slower, the numbers start to look a lot more worrying.
T1 Minimize = Evasion boosted by 2 stages. Switch out to a Parasect, nothing happens.
T2 Minimize = Evasion boosted by 2 stages. Parasect uses Spore at 42.85% accuracy. 42.85% of the time, the chain ends here. 57.15% of the time, the chain continues, to...
T3 Minimize = Evasion boosted by 2 stages. Parasect uses Spore at 33.33% accuracy. 33.33% of the time the chain ends here, so in total, the chances of not having a really worrying Clefable is 42.85% + (33.33% of 57.15% =) 19.05%...61.9% of the time.
38.1% of the time, you get the full set up. That switch in over DOUBLES your chances to set up the requisite Evasion boosts, but the odds of this happening are still not in your favor.
The only way to tip the odds in your favor for this Minimize strategy to work would be, say, if you switch in Clefable just after a choice banded Salamence has killed something with Outrage, and just keep boosting up as it outrages and switches. You'll then have that 33.33% chance right from the get go, so that's a 66.66% chance to survive the boosting stage.
This isn't a perfect example, however; it only really works for Spore and moves that would OHKO. When 2HKOs and beyond get involved, the odds are increasingly tipped in the favor of the Minimizer (That said, they also get tipped in the favor of the Paraflinchers and Parafusioners in that case.)
The most important distinguishing feature is that Parafusion/flinch immobilizes singular opponents FAR more quickly AND EFFECTIVELY, however Evasion boosters, while working slower, have much more of a sustained payoff, as after they get boosted up, that boost applies until they switch out or are phased out. Evasion also gives Pokemon the freedom to do things other than Air Slash, which does give it the upper hand on Paraflinch strategies, as they can heal/Substitute up, or boost other stats in relative safety. This is, however, a trait shared with Parafusion users such as Sableye or even Murkrow. (Baton Passing Parafusion Tail Glow Illumise anyone? ANYONE? *crickets*)
I rather like Parafusion in this generation, as there are so many new strategies which essentially take luck out of the equation; for example, Aegislash's SD set can be very hard to counter if it gets even one turn going in its favor. Getting a free turn against an Aegislash (Or a DD Dragonite, etc etc) can give your team a new lease on life through a calculated gamble, when outplaying your opponent by other means has ceased to be a feasable option.
Why Purrlion? Wouldnt be Meowstic (male) better?
Anyway with all the crying about paraflinch and evasion i think ill play a stomp mudslap kangaskhan.
Can I ask why in Arceus' name we're talking about evasion in the thread "Return of the son of paraflinch"? I see only flame wars in the future right now.
Moving away from double team, we've got dunsparce way down in the lower tiers as the paraflinch answer to parafusion. Which is better in lower tiers- if we assume that Klefki ends up NU somehow- for the greatest number of threats?
Moving away from double team, we've got dunsparce way down in the lower tiers as the paraflinch answer to parafusion. Which is better in lower tiers- if we assume that Klefki ends up NU somehow- for the greatest number of threats?
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