RMT: Always Outgunned, Never Outstalled (usually)

This is the first draft of my stall team. The general idea behind it is the same is most stall teams. I wanted a solid defensive core of 4 pokemon that dealt with most threats, leaving a slot or two for some other pokes to clean up and make dents in teams after spikes and poison damage starts to rack up. My main defensive core actually works pretty well, leaving few major weaknesses (apart from a huge Gyarados one). There are a few main problems which I have already noticed with this team though that I will go into later.

EDIT: Same basic principle, but it's now 5 walls to cover threats and an SD Garchomp on the end to clean up the scraps.

For now, onto the lineup:
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Forretress---Spiritomb---Suicune---Gliscor---Blissey---Lucairo

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You Spin Me Right Round
Forretress
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Forretress (M) @ Shed Shell
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP/160 Atk/96 Def
Relaxed nature (+Def, -Spd)
- Spikes
- Toxic Spikes
- Rapid Spin
- Gyro Ball
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It's not a great lead, but it's my best choice out of the bunch as it can at least set up against other defensively minded leads such as Hippowdon. It's much more useful when it get's a chance to set up the Spikes and Toxic Spikes that my team relies on. Rapid Spin removes entry hazards, most notably the Toxic Spikes which I hate having on my side of the field. Gyro Ball lets me counter Weavile and hurts the common TTar leads, and Shed Shell stops Magnezone from setting up on me. I'm probably going to change the EVs later to more defence and less attack as I find it taking 2 or 3% more damage then I'd like it to against some attacks.
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No Pressure
Spiritomb
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Spiritomb (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP/56 SAtk/200 SDef
Calm nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Calm Mind
- Dark Pulse
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
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The somewhat unusual spread for this set has come about in response to dealing with specific threats to this team. The main thing that Spiritomb has to do is block rapid spin. It carries this out flawlessly by virtue of its ghost(/dark) typing. It also had to absorb status and counter Gengar and Azelf effectively, hence ResTalk and the calm nature with the current spread. I was originally running Shadow Ball/HP Fighting/Rest/Sleep Talk, but this had the tendency to sit around doing nothing apart from blocking spin and countering these threats. Therefore, I decided that it would be better to be able to take advantage of all those free turns by CMing up for a chance to actually hurt something. This set meets my needs, and allows me to counter Gengar and Azelf without any need to CM boost and set up in Gengar's face. In fact, it can set up on many weaker special attackers such as spinner Starmie, and should be able to outstall Blissey should it come down to that thanks to Toxic Spikes and Pressure. Entertainingly, this can also set up on the HP Ice SDLukes that can beat Gliscor, despite the fact that Luke resists Dark x4.
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Dog
Suicune
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Suicune @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP/252 Def/4 SAtk
Bold nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Electric]
- Roar
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My phazer, Gyarados counter and somewhat shaky SDChomp and MixApe counter. It does it's job fairly well, although lack of recovery outside of lefties and wish hurts it, and can effectively wall many things. It does well against the dangerous LOTar that can otherwise destroy my team, and it's 100/115/115 defences means that it's pretty hard to OHKO without a boost. Surf lets me take down Infernape, since I can beat most MixApes that carry HP ice over NP. Ice Beam takes down the troublesome dragons, and HP Electric allows me to counter Gyarados, who does laughable damage to Suicune whilst I usually 2HKO it, and have a guaranteed 2HKO with SR. This is probably my best answer to Heatran too, since it can actually hurt it.

(Suicune is going to be changed, probably to a Vaporeon running the same set, to counter MixApe better. I've chosen Vaporeon over Starmie since it can phaze stuff, which is important to spread spikes damage.)
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The Punching Bag
Gliscor
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Gliscor (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Veil
EVs: 252 HP/4 Atk/252 Def
Impish nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Earthquake
- Roost
- Ice Fang
- Stealth Rock
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Gliscor completes my physical defensive core, and takes care of Hera (who could otherwise sweep me), most SD Lucarios, ScarfChomp, TBolt TBoah, and many other physical pokes. The moveset is obvious, EQ for STAB and killing Luke, Ice Fang for dragons, SR because I don't have it anywhere else and roost to recover. Sand Veil is a great ability, as I can avoid many hits entirely with it.
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Something a bit Special
Blissey
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Blissey (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 Def/40 SAtk/216 SDef
Calm nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Wish
- Protect
- Toxic
- Flamethrower
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WishBliss. Protect allows me to stall better and to scout for pursuits from the TTars, Heras and other physical threats that love to come in and pursuit this. Flamethrower seems more useful than Ice Beam, as it allows me to hit Gross, Weavile and Lucairo as they come in. I'm totally walled against Heatran, but most Heatran are walled back, and offensive ones die soon enough to Suicune and Spikes, and I can drain their meager Fire Blast PP with Wish/Protect. Wish also helps out Suicune, Dusknoir and Forretress, allowing Forry to get spikes up and allowing Suicune to stay alive to counter Gyarados and Garchomp. Toxic now seems more useful than TWave as nothing else has it and I can stall stuff better with Wish/Protect.
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Knuckleduster
Lucairo
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Lucario (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Extremespeed
- Crunch
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SDLuke helps this team out in many ways. Firstly, it lets me effectively clean-up at the end of a battle, killing almost anything not called Gliscor or a faster ghost when passive damage takes its toll. Secondly, it acts as an insurance policy if I allow anything fast but fragile to set up on me, as even unboosted Extremespeeds hurt a weakened and fragile opponent. Crunch lets me kill of troublesome Cresselias (especially ResTalking ones that can take toxic) and Celebis. Its numerous resistances to common attacking types allows it to come in very easily and set up, and not much can take it on with SR, spikes and toxic spikes up.
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Onto the threat list:
(Threat list not updated, can't be bothered.)

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Garchomp:
--- Initial Switchin: Skarmory is usually my best switch in, as it can WW away SDs and take almost any attack.
---SD Garchomp: Skarmory takes this on fairly well again.
---Choiced Garchomp: For CS I usually go to Gliscor, for CB Skarmory is usually my best bet to take outrages.
---Sub Garchomp: Skarmory walls this and WWs it.
---Chain Chomp: A problem since I don't expect it. Blissey and Tenta easily take a special attack, and I can then switch in Gliscor or Skarmory.

Gengar:
---Initial Switchin: Blissey. It can beat it if it hypnosises me usually, as the chances of it actually being able to kill me as I sleep are low. Gross is my defence policy against this, as bullet punch can kill a weakened one.
---Life Orb Gengar: Blissey again. LO makes it die faster too.
---Scarf Gengar: Simple. Blissey beats it and Tenta can hold its own.
---Subbing Gengar: I suppose Blissey again. Haven't seen any of these in ages.

Blissey:
---Initial Switchin: Metagross can come in and doesn't mind paralysis too much. I can use it as set up fodder much of the time too.
---CMBliss: CMs won't save it from a meteor mash, and I can always toxic it with P2 or toxic spikes since most use serene grace.

Gyarados:
---Initial switchin: Porygon2 beats it easily.
---Bulky Gyarados: Porygon2.
---STalk Gyarados: Porygon2. Again.
---Choiced Gyarados: P2.
---Life Orb Sweeper Gyarados: Porygon2.

Tyranitar:
---Initial switchin: Gliscor or Skarmory, depending on whether or not I think it's carrying Ice Beam.
---BOAH: Gliscor if TBolt, Skarm if Ice Beam.
---DDTar: Skarm does well if it doesn't have taunt. If it does, then it won't have IB so Gliscor can beat it.
---Choiced Tyranitar: Skarm for everything except CB Stone Edges. Gliscor can also work, and Meta can get in on Stone Edges or revenge kill.

Lucario:
---Initial Switchin: Generally Gliscor, who can take the SD set (without HP ice) and a resisted Specs hit.
---SDLuke: Gliscor unless it has HP ice, in which case I might have to stall it for a while and hope that Tenta will be able to kill it off.
---SpecsLuke: Tenta does well, and Blissey can survive 2 hits thanks to its EV spread, then paralyse it.
---Agili/MixLuke: Skarm or Tenta could work. I haven't seen any.

Heatran:
---Initial Switchin: Blissey takes most sets not carrying explosion or taunt. Tenta works too, and P2 traces flash fire.
---SpecsTran: Blissey beats this, only fearing explosion.
---Life Orb Heatran: It's more problematic as it often carries taunt or explosion. Bliss and Tenta still work decently though.
---ScarfTran/ResTalk Tran: Scarftran is beaten by Bliss, P2 and Tenta. ResTalk walls much of my team, but I can wall it back. Might need a faster EQ user to be able to easily take it down.

Bronzong:
---Initial Switchin: Skarm can set-up on it.
---CMZong: Bliss should wall it, though can't do much back. Skarm might be able to phaze it.

Salamence:
---Initial Switchin: Bliss is my usual switch in, often followed by a switch to Tenta or either of my physical walls depending on the set.
---SpecsMence: Blissey. Tenta is a decent back-up plan.
---MixMence: Tenta takes this on well.
---DDMence: Gliscor, mainly.
---CBMence: Gliscor, or Skarm on anything other than FB.

Metagross:
---Initial Switchin: Skarmory, but Gliscor does well too.
---CBGross: Skarm is my best bet, fearing only a TPunch, which Gliscor takes.
---ScarfGross: Skarmory walls it.
---Life Orb Pure Physical Gross: Skarm and Gliscor again.
---AgiliGross: Even easier for Skarm and Gliscor to beat.
---MixGross: Gliscor beats it easily.

Infernape:
---Initial Switchin: Tenta beats the common mixape, others are more troublesome.
---SDNape: Gliscor I suppose.
---MixNape: Tenta counters this well.
---ScarfNape: Probably Tenta, depending on what it carries and if it's mixed or not.

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Weavile: Skarmory counters this well.

Swampert: I can usually set up on this with Skarm. Spikes and Toxic spikes greatly hinder it.

Skarmory: Irritating, but P2 can kill it and Tenta spins its spikes away.

Gliscor: Skarm sets up on it. P2 takes it down and traces sand veil, which is always fun.

Starmie: Blissey walls it. P2 loves natural cure if it has a status at the time.

Celebi: Irritating, but Tenta freely switches in on Psychicless ones and fires it's leech seed back at it. Ones without HP Fire are set up on by Skarm.

Forretress: Thankfully it can't recover, so Tenta ruins its set-up efforts and eventually kills it.

Cresselia: I can't do much against it except plug away with meteor mash and hope it eventually runs out of moonlight PP. Toxic from P2 can work on non-restalk ones.

Togekiss: Dangerous. Scarf ones are beaten by Bliss, but the flinch set relies on me T-waving it and revenge killing it.
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Heracross:
---Initial Switchin: Gliscor
---CBCross: Gliscor, although I need to roost regularly due to guts from Tspikes.
---ScarfCross: Gliscor.
---Setup Cross: More dangerous, but rare. Flame orb ones die very quickly through spikes and SR though.

Jirachi: Metagross can come in easily and smack it around a bit. CM ones are a bit of a danger but Gross should still do OK.

Breloom: Something gets sacrificed to sleep, then Gliscor beats it.

Vaporeon: Blissey walls it. P2 comes in thanks to water absorb and toxics or Tbolts it.

Electivire: Actually pretty dangerous. If I come in on a Thunderbolt/punch, Gliscor can beat it (though not without taking heavy damage). Otherwise I rely on stalling it for poison damage.

Hippowdon: Most of my team can set up on it, and poison wears it down.

Azelf: Scarfzelf is easily beaten by Blissey. NP versions should be beaten through para from Blissey and a Gross Revenge kill, unless it explodes.

Snorlax: Gross as long as I avoid EQ. Skarm sets up on it.

Mamoswine: Skarm takes everything short of LO blizzards.

Scizor: Skarm or Gliscor I suppose.

Porygon-z: Bliss usually beats this, especially if it lacks NP.

Magnezone: It can ruin Skarm and Meta, but Blissey counters it.

Yanmega: I usually have to sacrifice something to sleep, then Bliss walls it.

Zapdos: Blissey walls it, and I can take down ResTalkless ones with toxic from P2.

Suicune: Not Totally sure. I'm pretty weak to this as it can set up on Bliss. Restless ones are easy to beat. Worst case scenario, I have to explode on it.

Machamp: Gliscor beats most variants, and Skarm can beat Ice punch versions.

Ninjask: Skarm.

Gallade: The CB version is deadly and requires good prediction. It dies to Metagross.

Mismagius: Metagross can beat it, Skarm can usually take a hit and phaze it.

Kingdra: Really dangerous, paralysis through Blissey is my best bet, followed by stalling the rain out.

Abomasnow: I never know what to expect from it, but Gross can probably beat it.

Umbreon: I can set up on it, phaze it or smack it around with Meta. Not a problem.

Alakazam: Gross can take its attacks and massacre it, Blissey does OK as long as it avoids Trick.

Charizard: Stealth rocks limit it greatly, and Blissey should be able to take Special versions. Bellyzard could be a problem, but only if it manages to get in undamaged.

Aerodactyl: Skarm or Gliscor work well.

Raikou: One of the main reasons I run Blissey.
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That's all. Help me out please, and suggest anything that would help my team. As a side note, this is for shoddy, so hidden powers and legendaries are easy to get.

Thanks in advance.
 
?? On defensive Gliscors Sand Veil is better 100% of the time. Magnezone is too slow to sweep, but yes, it does get coverage on every poke except Bliss, Porygon2 and Metagross.
 
Well if you wanted to block Rapid Spin to help your Spikes, Toxic Spikes and Stealth Rock's existance, then I would bare in mind it's not a fabulous Gyarados counter. Repeated Waterfall will wear down Dusknoir, and Taunt will stop you from using Pain Split...which then means you'll end up losing your Gyarados counter because you are then OHKOed by the next Waterfall + Dragon Dance to boot. So keep that in mind.

Alot of the time, I believe Wish always helps one's team and its Bronzong, Tentacruel, Mespirit and any other Pokemon that is there to counter something specific yet hasn't got the ability to heal its own health. I would consider that for Tentacruel's difficult job of countering MixMence and Infernape. Plus, if you were to add Dusknoir it's another additional option to heal its health. And then, finally, there is Metagross who wouldn't refuse having its HP recovered.

Regarding Blissey, she is a fine special wall. Why on earth have you planted all the EVs into Special Defense? Please...consider the Bold variant for the more effective way of surviving. All that Special Defense enabled you to do was take all these special attacks with little damage lost at all, when the Bold variants takes a slighty less ammount more but nothing too drastic to throw you off your game.

Overall, I believe the team is good in the "stall" criteria, but Metagross' ability to get trapped by Magnezone isn't appealing at all. If this was to occur, you lost your only hard-hitting Pokemon and will be forced to be on the defensive for the remainder of the match. Thus, it's never a bad idea to reconsider Metagross' place in the team, in replacement for a faster, yet sturdier competition. Something you could keep within reaching distance whilst waiting fo the right moment to pounce on the opponent. Pokemon that can relate to that are Gyarados and Garchomp. Both whom are capable of sweeping with their respective signiture moves, Dragon Dance and Swords Dance. And with all that support you're throwing around, never overlook the damage a Garchomp / Gyarados addition to your team could do for you.
 
I don't think this stall team has enough Garchomp, Gyarados, or Tyranitar coverage really. Any one of them could break through your walls. If you are going for 5 walls+1 sweeper then I would use Garchomp or Gyarados as the sweeper anyways.

Well if you want to add a Gyarados counter, status aborber, and spinner then you have to change up your team a bit. You should try to replace things that only serve 1-2 roles and replace them with something that can do more to free up space. Anyways lets start by adding a Dusknoir over Porygon-2 so you have a Spin Blocker there.

I reccomend that you have Foretress on your team. You can make it your Spinner, Toxic Spiker, and Spiker while being able to handle ChoiceChomp and Tyranitar pretty well. Obviously you would replace Tentacruel and Skarmory. Out of that you lose an Infernape counter and a Phazer. I would put in Suicune over the other spot. With Roar, Surf, HP Electric, Ice Beam it gives you a counter for Infernape, Gyarados and you do pretty well against Dragons and even Tyranitar. So in the end you don't lose any supporting roles while covering up some weaknesses.

Well out of that you should now have Metagross, Dusknoir, Suicune, Foretress, Gliscor and Blissey. You pretty much have everything covered but I would still replace Metagross. Like you said it is replaceable and I don't think you need it too much. Gyarados, Garchomp, Lucario or some good lead sweeper could go here. I would lead with Foretress instead or put in a good lead in here.

Well for smaller changes use Wish on Blissey and Shed Shell on Foretress. Wish helps out stall teams with support, especially to Foretress while Shed Shell stops a Magnezone from getting rid of Foretress leading to a possible sweep. Well thats about it.
 
Thanks for all your help. I'm going to try out the changes that Taylor and Tsurukawa suggested, since that seems to plug up most of the glaring holes in my team. What attack would you suggest on Forretress?

Would Thunder Punch/Shadow Sneak/Brick Break/Pain Split be OK on Dusknoir, or should I run WoW or Fire Punch on there over Shadow Sneak/Brick Break. Being able to nail TTar and Weavile on the switch with BB (since they will often be poisoned and therefore immune to WoW) seems pretty important, and I'm currently lacking in a priority move. Thoughts?

I'll edit later when I've made the changes.
 
I think Thunder Punch needs to stay for Gyarados cover. Fire Punch won't be as benificial to the team as you have Gliscor for Lucario and Heracross. And then the rest will be seen to in one way or another, while Gyarados' ability to sweep the team with no Thunder Punch Dusknoir isn't something you would want.
 
Right, I've basically changed the whole team now. I'm still unsure about Dusknoir's inclusion in the team, as it seems that Spiritomb might do better there. The rest of the team is functioning pretty solidly. Anyway, thoughts?

EDIT: I was considering a Vaporeon in Suicune's slot as well. It can take MixApe a bit better and either run the same set as Suicune or take over wish duties from Blissey, allowing me to use Blissey as a cleric or give it Seismic Toss to beat Raikou.
 
Your most immediate problem is the lack of sleep absorber. The ever common Gengar leads will just shut you down at the start of the match while enjoying fucking around with Blissey. You have many options, but the best choice for this team is replacing Dusknoir with a Calm Restalking Spiritomb(252 hp/ 200 sdef/ 56 satk) to block spins minus Pursuit weakness, and more important stop Gengar from running you over. My next biggest concern in the ape weakness. Though Suicune and Garchomp have the ability to beat it one on one, neither can switch in safely. Cune takes 50< percent from Grass Knot due to its weight, while Garchomp is 2HKOed by Hidden Power Ice and 2HKOed by Close Combat. I suggest replacing Suicune with a standard Surf/Thunderbolt/Spin/Recover Starmie with 172 hp/ 224 speed/ 114 satk. It literally stops Inferape in its tracks, as well as Gyarados which also runs over your team in many mid game situations.

Now, seeing this is a stall team, there are not many imminent threats. The main problem you will encounter is being unable to finish your opponent effectively late game. Though Yache Garchomp is a truly dangerous threat to any team especially with 6 layers of passive damage, you can do better. Run a Swords Dance Lucario. Nearly all of its counters are eliminated once 2+ layers of Spikes have been set up and it has Swords Dance; Hippowdon and Garchomp are just two prominent examples. If you want to make sure Gliscor doesn't give you trouble you can just go with Naive and Hidden Power Ice in place of Crunch. Also, Blissey should be using Ice Beam in place of Wish, and Softboiled over Protect.


Not bad.
 
Team changed again. I'm probably not going to make many edits to it after this, as it's running pretty smoothly as is. I'm currently running Vaporeon with the same moveset over Suicune to counter MixApe better, but haven't added it to the first post as I haven't totally made my mind up for that slot yet.
 
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