RMT for VGC 2010. It's all about the weather...

Feathers

NOTE: This is my old post, edited so as not to just create another thread for no reason. This is a new team, so please ignore the first few old comments. Thanks! Changes from suggestions have been bolded.

Alright, so this will be my second run in the VGC, and thusly my second run at forming a 4 pokemon doubles team. I have to say, it's fairly awkward to go from singles to doubles, and even more so to go from lv.50 only doubles to including certain ubers. So bear with me here, I'm a bit shaky with teams like this.

Anyway, after watching various Japanese battles as well as hopping around for information, it seems that, as predicted, Groudon and Kyogre are bringing the sun and rain respectively. TR is less common, but it's still a thought to be considered.

From what I can tell, most people seem to be picking a weather and sticking with it, the more common one being rain. My goal with this team here was not to be based on a weather, but rather be able to work with whatever conditions arise, and suffer no direct negative affects. You can't predict what kind of team your opponent will use, so why not be ready for them all? I don't intend to dominate in all situations, I mostly just want to be able to handle it and keep myself in the game. So here we go:

Leads:

Palkia@Haban berry
Pressure
Timid/Modest, whichever I manage to get.
252 S Atk/ 252 Spd/ 6 HP
- Protect
- Fire Blast
- Thunder
- Spacial Rend

After I decided on this Palkia, I realized that it's pretty much exactly like the RD one described on Skarmbliss, sans the water moves. Protect is obvious, and I'm very partial to double protecting on the first turn unless I know for certain that I don't have to. Fire Blast and Thunder are for working in the Sun/Rain respectively should I meet lead Groudons and Kyogres. Kyogre seems more likely, so I'm not all that worried about having a move to take down the don. Spacial Rend for crazy stab and lead Giras, who while are uncommon, should not be overlooked. Thunder is also for Lugia and Ho-oh, cause I'm cool with risking a huge miss.

I think my main concern with him is other Palkia, whether or not they end up faster with Spacial Rend or Draco Meteor. I know they'll basically all run 252 spd, and I'm not sure what to do about it.

Weavile@ Focus Sash
Pressure
Impish
252 S Atk/ 252 spd/ 6 HP
- Protect
- Ice Shard
- Fake Out
- Night Slash

Mmmm, Weavile. He's pretty boss if he doesn't die on the first turn. Anyway, protect is for the above and survivability. He is also fairly safe under hail should I encounter lead Obamas, and he doesn't care about Rain. Sun weakens Ice shard though, but that's about it. This is actually very self explanatory, methinks. I just don't know if I should have Focus Sash over Life Orb. Is damage more important than lasting another turn? I risk having a broken sash from Fake Out Ludicolo in the rain, so I'm not sure. Kingdra is also a bastard, but I have yet to see a lead one. He goes down with Spacial Rend anyway.

Double Pressure FTW.

Ludicolo@ Leftovers
Swift Swim
Modest
252 S atk/ 196 Spd/ 60 HP
- Protect
- Hydropump
- Grass Knot
- Ice Beam

Essentially a modified -for- doubles offensive rain ludicolo. If rain is up, it's all good, and if I can't get him in on rain, then I hope those speed EVs get some use. Hydropump can OHKO things like Metagross, and basically almost everything that doesn't resist. I probably could have gone for surf and accuracy, but it's base attack power goes down with more than one opponent. Grass Knot is lovely and can kill late game Ogres and Dons if it has to, and Ice Beam for Dragons that Weavile can't deal with before he dies. I always hope I can switch him in on Rain so I don't have to set it up myself, but we can't always get what we want.

He doesn't like Toxicroak, really, but hopefully I can take care of any I see before he comes out.

Giratina@ Lum berry????
Bold
Pressure
248 HP/ 248 Def/ 12 Sp Atk
- Protect
- Rain Dance
- Dragon Pulse
- Shadow Ball

Yeah, this is pretty much half of the Great Wall Gira, but I'd love some heavy background bulk that isn't based on Sp Atk and Speed alone. Originally I wanted something that could cancel out TR, but that wasn't working out so I hope he can work OK should TR pop up. I can't really do anything besides outlast it with this team.

I really don't know about lum berry, but I don't want him falling to status ailment or anything. Okay okay okay, the Rain Dance factor. If I get a chance to set it up, then I will because it will help me infinitely. I'm hoping that I can rip some mean stab off with my only two attacking moves, even without CM or any sort of boost. I'm a bit worried if I end up with Obama late game, but chances are that Ludicolo would take him down with Hydro Pump first if it hits. I guess this whole idea is a bit shaky, but I think it will be really effective if I hit late game weather.

I just have to hope to god that I take out any Rayquaza before they whittle me down to my two back mates.

Is protect really necessary, do you think? He has explosion immunity already, and other double hitter moves don't do much. I guess if I see a SE attack coming, the it'd be useful, but I can't help but think I'm missing something important.

Any help would be appreciated, feel free to rip my team apart and spit it back out on my foot should it suit you. Thanks in advance.
 
You should give Giratina-O Shadow Force. Not only for the raw power, but it also breaks through Protect (which will be used a lot), although, you will have to be aware of when the opponent may switch. Dragon Pulse is nice for coverage, or even Draco Meteor if you really want to trade consistency for power. Shadow Sneak is also very usefull for taking out weakened threats (and annoying Kyogre by weakening it before it Water Spouts). I can't think of a set or anything at the moment, I am just bringing some ideas to the table.

Dialga is something handy to have, considering the fact that this team won't like TR too much. Personally, I think Giratina-O is a better choice because it pairs well w/ Groudon and as you said, he has good coverage with your team and supplies a handy Explosion immunity, as well as a ground imunnity.

If a ground weakness is the only thing keeping you from running Dialga, you could always teach it Magnet Rise. Fake Out a Pokemon getting ready to EQ, then Magnet Rise to gain a Ground immunity.

You could always add a5th Pokemon to remove TR. It's also a good idea to come up with all six Pokemon so your not stuck w/ the same ones the entire time, and can be more unpredictable.

Also, in the VGC, do you know if 2 competitors will see each others Pokemon bfore a battle, like in PBR?
 
well when i was there we didnt get info on the other team until the finals which was played in PBR otherwise it was just good old DS to DS in the battle room. So to answer the question above no u dont know unless ur deep into the tournament and from what i hear not every location did that either.

try adding a special attack infrernape to the mix. give it flamethrower grass knot and focus blast. 4th move is up to you. The reason for this is exactly as you said your gonna see Kyogre and Groudon and maybe abamasnow (and a sandstorm team very unlikly but this infernape still covers that also). Since it is an infernape most ppl are gonna think physical setup. well with this you have grass knot which is a OHKO on groudon and kyogre (and hippowdon possibly). and with flamethrower you take out abomasnow. also if you did see a groudon now you have a sunny day active that boosts infernapes flamethrower.
 
You should give Giratina-O Shadow Force. Not only for the raw power, but it also breaks through Protect (which will be used a lot), although, you will have to be aware of when the opponent may switch. Dragon Pulse is nice for coverage, or even Draco Meteor if you really want to trade consistency for power. Shadow Sneak is also very usefull for taking out weakened threats (and annoying Kyogre by weakening it before it Water Spouts). I can't think of a set or anything at the moment, I am just bringing some ideas to the table.

Dialga is something handy to have, considering the fact that this team won't like TR too much. Personally, I think Giratina-O is a better choice because it pairs well w/ Groudon and as you said, he has good coverage with your team and supplies a handy Explosion immunity, as well as a ground imunnity.

If a ground weakness is the only thing keeping you from running Dialga, you could always teach it Magnet Rise. Fake Out a Pokemon getting ready to EQ, then Magnet Rise to gain a Ground immunity.

You could always add a5th Pokemon to remove TR. It's also a good idea to come up with all six Pokemon so your not stuck w/ the same ones the entire time, and can be more unpredictable.

Also, in the VGC, do you know if 2 competitors will see each others Pokemon bfore a battle, like in PBR?
Click to expand...
Shadow force seems very useful, although I'd have to be very careful when using it. I guess I'd save it for instances where I know the opponent will take damage from it. Dragon pulse would be better for me, I can't stand the thought of my entire game depending on a miss. The matches are always very short, and the main objective is to fire off at each other as quickly as possible. Shadow sneak would also be useful for overriding TR.

I don't want to bother with Magnet Rise, to me it's a waste of a turn. That's basically the reason why status infliction moves are uncommon.

Most people I know that competed only had four pokemon, as it really changes nothing for surprising your opponent. There is no way to tell who has what team, and you don't get to see your opponent's team before the match. Having all six pokemon makes no difference, really. I also don't have time, especially if Seattle is one of the first few qualifiers.

Thanks much for this, it was very helpful.

try adding a special attack infrernape to the mix. give it flamethrower grass knot and focus blast. 4th move is up to you. The reason for this is exactly as you said your gonna see Kyogre and Groudon and maybe abamasnow (and a sandstorm team very unlikly but this infernape still covers that also). Since it is an infernape most ppl are gonna think physical setup. well with this you have grass knot which is a OHKO on groudon and kyogre (and hippowdon possibly). and with flamethrower you take out abomasnow. also if you did see a groudon now you have a sunny day active that boosts infernapes flamethrower.
Click to expand...
I see no benefit to choosing an Infernape over an Uber, unless you want me to remove Weavile? the only way I could see him working at all is if he's in late game with Groudon, which would be very unlikely considering he's someone I'd want on the front at all times. Ludicolo already deals with both Groudon and Kyogre. The only thing that really looks good for me is flamethrower, but abomasnow is not really a worry for me.

I also would not switch him in on an opponents Groudon for fear of EQ.

Thanks though.
 
For palkia, always go for timid nature. And the name of the berry is haban (for dragon weakness).
Still thinking for more possible changes for this team(ill edit this post).
 
Thanks, I'll be sure to aim for that. I'll edit that berry in when I'm not tired as hell and can barely understand what I'm typing. @_@

Any further help is much appreciated and very anticipated.
 
I would suggest running Weaville with Focus Sash. In an Ubers like meta game, his defense stats are a joke, and with a life orb you pretty much guarantee a OHKO. Getting at least 2 good attacks off makes his amazing STABs a lot more effective. In the situation of opposing Ludicolo and Kyogre, your Palkia's no miss Thunders will be a much bigger threat leaving your Weaville safe most of the time. Combined with a timely protect you might have some decent staying power with him.
 
That sounds good, I think I'll swap the items.

I think I just got into the mindset of having Weavile on my old TR team, where players were much more concerned with taking out my Dusknoir instead, and Vile could actually live long enough for Life Orb to be effective. I meant to use FS on him last year at the VGC, but it was theived in-game by a wild pokemon while I was doing last minute leveling.

I'll test him out on netbattle. Thanks much!
 
I'd switch Giratina with something with Water Absorb and give Ludicolo Surf over Hydro Pump.

When Ludicolo Surfs you're healing your partner.
Click to expand...

Could you give me a better reason then surf healing my partner? And the only viable pokemon to use in the VCG with any sort of water recovery is Toxicroak, who I am not switching out Giratina with because Gira will be infinitely more useful. I sort of need more of a reason to switch an entire pokemon out. Which pokemon do I bring in? Which attacks will it have? Will it have the same coverage as Giratina?

Plus without Gira, there would be no way for me to get my own weather up if I need it. He's bulky enough to do it and not go down on the same turn. Surf, with it's reduced power in doubles, almost needs rain on to be as effective as I'd need it to be. I think I like Hydro Pump a bit more, sorry.
 
on your giratina, you should get rid of rain dance...or better yet just have kyogre on that spot as he will work miraculously on this team.

oh and the rd palkia...while i was writing the analysis on skarmbliss, i actaully wanted to tell them the rd palkia is really eh goodstuff and not that other one with blizzard but oh well. now for the competitive talk on the pokemon...you should really go for timid as you will meet a lot of other palkias and most of them will be timid. you could go for modest as it will give you a HUGE boost in power...however...it will be a huge risk in my opinion. oh and you should rng to get the nature of your choice :)
 
I like your team, but I have a suggestion that you may want to test. Since rain is going to be very popular, Rain Dance on Giratina may end up being useless 50% of the time. Although having it DOES boost your Palkia and Ludicolo, Trick Room might work similarly, letting not only your low base speed Ludicolo go first, but your Giratina as well. This might conflict if you switch around a lot and somehow end up having your Weavile still alive during Trick Room; but another thing about trick room is that if you use it and your partner uses it, the dimensions return to normal. Using Trick Room over rain dance could allow you to not only operate as a pseudo trick-room team, letting your Pokemon move before things like Mewtwo that are faster than any of your 'Mons, but it would let you COUNTER trick room as well.

To put it simply, activate Trick Room when you're against faster threats to move first.
Shut down trick room if your opponent sets it up so that your Pokemon remain faster.
 
sorry for asking, but is there any worth in having a medicham with feint?

and you could easily clone your giritina and have a rain dance version and a trick room version and a attacking version. That way, by looking at your opponent's team, you can pick the better one.
that wouldn't work if you had the other slots filled by other pokés, though
 
sorry for asking, but is there any worth in having a medicham with feint?

and you could easily clone your giritina and have a rain dance version and a trick room version and a attacking version. That way, by looking at your opponent's team, you can pick the better one.
that wouldn't work if you had the other slots filled by other pokés, though
Click to expand...

Feint will be useless unless you can for sure predict a protect, which is actually harder than it seems in the VGC. Medicham will be gone before it could use it, most likely.

And there are a few things wrong with what you've just said:

1) Hack checks are performed, and I'd rather be safe than sorry.
2) You don't see your opponents team.
3) You can't have two of the same pokemon on your team sheet.

I highly recommend that you actually read the VGC rules before you post something like that. :/
 
I like your team, but I have a suggestion that you may want to test. Since rain is going to be very popular, Rain Dance on Giratina may end up being useless 50% of the time. Although having it DOES boost your Palkia and Ludicolo, Trick Room might work similarly, letting not only your low base speed Ludicolo go first, but your Giratina as well. This might conflict if you switch around a lot and somehow end up having your Weavile still alive during Trick Room; but another thing about trick room is that if you use it and your partner uses it, the dimensions return to normal. Using Trick Room over rain dance could allow you to not only operate as a pseudo trick-room team, letting your Pokemon move before things like Mewtwo that are faster than any of your 'Mons, but it would let you COUNTER trick room as well.

To put it simply, activate Trick Room when you're against faster threats to move first.
Shut down trick room if your opponent sets it up so that your Pokemon remain faster.
Click to expand...
There we go! help with a problem I've been having. Rain Dance is only useful when it can be used, and I wasn't too sure what to do when it couldn't. TR was a problem I was trying to fix before via TR negation with itself, but I couldn't figure out exactly how to go about it. This does fit much better, and also solves my TR weakness (to an extent). If I do end up with Vile and Gira in, I've got some priority as well.

Thanks a bunch, you've just made me realize what a derp I am. xD

But even with 252 speed EVs, Ludicolo would still be slower than most pokemon, correct? And he's probably not going to be the slowest outside of TR either.


EDIT: Now I know why I didn't think of it before: Giratina can't learn Trick Room.
 
Feathers said:
EDIT: Now I know why I didn't think of it before: Giratina can't learn Trick Room.
Click to expand...

well, now I feel twice as stupid.

oh well, but weaville with focus sash loses in one turn if the opponent has spikes or stealth rock, just a side note.

I thinks you will win.

I though you could see your opponent's team, you can on pbr wifi battles, but it's probably in the rules somewhere.

maybe you could have a noob sweeper for the first rounds and your anti-metagame pokémon for the later rounds, just a though.
 
All you have to do is visit the pokemon website to review the rules. I have them memorized from last year.

Nobody will take a turn to get up SR or Spikes, matches are over very quickly. Even if they do, it won't matter because Weavile is a lead, so he'd be in first anyway. My fastest matches last year were my first and second battles, which I ended in only two turns. My opponents didn't EV train their pokemon, obviously.

I'd like to think I'll win, but I won't know unless I'm actually playing the final battle.

When you play at the VGC, you are taken to a table with a stand that has two DSLites on it. Your carts are put into a slot at the top, and you play using the DS they give you. It's done with the Lv 50 all cup rule in regular two player battles (using the second floor of the pokemon center) so you don't see your opponent's pokemon until you play.

I don't know what a noob sweeper is supposed to be. You mean a really powerful random pokemon? What if I run into a fellow Smogonite in my first match? They aren't all easy games until you get to the finals, you just never know.
 
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