Got it, my bad there
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Roaring Moon Suspect — Qualified Discussion
- Thread starter ausma
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I have already made my point about the Moon suspect here in the other thread https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...ancing-in-the-moonlight.3761880/post-10491596. If you are interested, give it a good read
I personally would have prefered a survey first tbh, cause even though all of its sets existed before, the spotlight and rise of Moon's other sets have been relatively recent but this is the direction it has gone to so this is what we will have to work with.
Moon is not an unstoppable monster that gives you free wins, let's not kid ourselves here. The reason this mon is unhealthy is that counterplay is extremely inconsistent both offensively and defensively to a much larger degree then other sweepers thanks to the traits that have been stated in this and the other thread multiple times. One point I am gonna repeat here is this: The reason why Moon looks manageable to some ppl
right now is because everyone is just following a popular trend instead of abusing it's extremely vast set customization which will be amplified by it's raw power, speed and bulk. Tera Fire Fire Fang can be used to counter Scizor, Balloon Steels and Corvi and make way for stuff like Dragonite. All these mons are used against tera fairy Moon. Taunt variations completely shut down any defensive answer and are not bad into offense at all, especially the tera fairy sets with knock, creating the perfect neutral covereage and offense teams not having a lot of defensive backbones to stomach an attack from this guy. Behind veil, Moon is downright oppressive against offense where it can 1vs1 even offensive would be counters like Gambit or Nite. Another partner that is absolutely perfect for Moon is Pecha. Parting shot weakening targets, pivoting to get Moon in safely while also dealing with pesky fairy types while also luring in bulky grounds? I would say this mon is the perfect partner. I use Shuca to lure in ground like Lando or Tusk to either weaken them or get rid of them so Moon's path to victory gets much cleaner.
I also wanna address another point in the other thread that states that Moon is shutting down fat teams but as I have already stated, this Mon is oppressive against both offense AND defense. If it simply were fat buster, I would absolutely welcome it's presence in this tier. But aggresive and pro-active play is simply not enough for this Mon long term speaking. A well played Moon with the right tera type can simply negate any pro-active plays and instead use you as a setup fodder. Glowking who will stay in to T-wave it, only to be met with taunt or a sub is gonna be another victim on it's list instead of the brave hero. The Great Tusk that tries to Ice Spinner or HR just to be met with a bulky Tera bug set will also not be in great shape. Point is, even though you might argue that other Mons can do that too, these Mons have consistent, general counterplay. Gambit and Bolt's ability to sweep hinges on the fact that they rely on unreliable means like sucker punch or thundeclap which can always be taken advantage of by statusing, subbing or encoring something you can't say about Moon. Iron Valiant also has great set diversity but is frail and often tasked with revenge killing, burning it's resources of sweeping in the proccess. Its also kinda weak. Dragonite and Zama are just offense busters and have low initial power compared to Moon, making them thud into fat (unless choiced, which makes them easier to beat offensively) and the likes of Ghold, Glis and Oger have the opposite problem where they are good against fat but kinda meh into offense, thanks to their middling speed. Darkrai too has a lot of set variety and good speed but it's speed remains consistent and thus can be checked offensively on a consistent basis(if we exclude tera). Kyurem is banworthy for me, so I am not gonna go there.
I personally would have prefered a survey first tbh, cause even though all of its sets existed before, the spotlight and rise of Moon's other sets have been relatively recent but this is the direction it has gone to so this is what we will have to work with.
Moon is not an unstoppable monster that gives you free wins, let's not kid ourselves here. The reason this mon is unhealthy is that counterplay is extremely inconsistent both offensively and defensively to a much larger degree then other sweepers thanks to the traits that have been stated in this and the other thread multiple times. One point I am gonna repeat here is this: The reason why Moon looks manageable to some ppl
right now is because everyone is just following a popular trend instead of abusing it's extremely vast set customization which will be amplified by it's raw power, speed and bulk. Tera Fire Fire Fang can be used to counter Scizor, Balloon Steels and Corvi and make way for stuff like Dragonite. All these mons are used against tera fairy Moon. Taunt variations completely shut down any defensive answer and are not bad into offense at all, especially the tera fairy sets with knock, creating the perfect neutral covereage and offense teams not having a lot of defensive backbones to stomach an attack from this guy. Behind veil, Moon is downright oppressive against offense where it can 1vs1 even offensive would be counters like Gambit or Nite. Another partner that is absolutely perfect for Moon is Pecha. Parting shot weakening targets, pivoting to get Moon in safely while also dealing with pesky fairy types while also luring in bulky grounds? I would say this mon is the perfect partner. I use Shuca to lure in ground like Lando or Tusk to either weaken them or get rid of them so Moon's path to victory gets much cleaner.
I also wanna address another point in the other thread that states that Moon is shutting down fat teams but as I have already stated, this Mon is oppressive against both offense AND defense. If it simply were fat buster, I would absolutely welcome it's presence in this tier. But aggresive and pro-active play is simply not enough for this Mon long term speaking. A well played Moon with the right tera type can simply negate any pro-active plays and instead use you as a setup fodder. Glowking who will stay in to T-wave it, only to be met with taunt or a sub is gonna be another victim on it's list instead of the brave hero. The Great Tusk that tries to Ice Spinner or HR just to be met with a bulky Tera bug set will also not be in great shape. Point is, even though you might argue that other Mons can do that too, these Mons have consistent, general counterplay. Gambit and Bolt's ability to sweep hinges on the fact that they rely on unreliable means like sucker punch or thundeclap which can always be taken advantage of by statusing, subbing or encoring something you can't say about Moon. Iron Valiant also has great set diversity but is frail and often tasked with revenge killing, burning it's resources of sweeping in the proccess. Its also kinda weak. Dragonite and Zama are just offense busters and have low initial power compared to Moon, making them thud into fat (unless choiced, which makes them easier to beat offensively) and the likes of Ghold, Glis and Oger have the opposite problem where they are good against fat but kinda meh into offense, thanks to their middling speed. Darkrai too has a lot of set variety and good speed but it's speed remains consistent and thus can be checked offensively on a consistent basis(if we exclude tera). Kyurem is banworthy for me, so I am not gonna go there.
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I’ve just completed the requirements for the suspect test. While more experienced players have already shared their perspectives, and I’m not the most consistent myself, I’d still like to express my thoughts on this mon. I’ll do my best to make my argument clear and coherent.
The DD Tera Flying Acrobatics sets, as well as the Choice sets, have been used throughout the generation without much controversy. I don’t think anyone has had a major issue with them. For the DD sets, yes, it required taking significant damage (e.g. Lando, Corv), sacking something, or burning your Tera, but dealing with it was never out of reach, especially with Rocky Helmet chip damage and its relatively poor physical bulk, which made it easy to revenge kill.
However, the rise of the bulkier variants has made this mon a topic of debate, and I believe Tera is the main reason for that. The uncertainty of what type it will become, and if it’s running Eq or not, is, in my opinion, the single most significant factor that makes it unbalanced.
While grinding for the reqs, I didn’t save the replays, but there was one moment in my last game where my opponent sent out Roaring Moon against my Samurott (which had Sacred Sword), and it Terastallized into Fairy type, then used DD. I assumed it was running DD Knock, Tera Blast, and Roost, as it also had Leftovers. I switched in Kingambit, thinking I could survive a +2 Tera Blast and KO with Iron Head, but then it revealed Earthquake. Another instance involved me using a Tera Ground Roost set against a balance team featuring
.
They brought out Zapdos, and they clicked Thunder Wave, so I Terastallized to Ground type. This turned their Zapdos into setup fodder, and I won immediately because their ran offensive Zamazenta.
The fact that this mon can win instantly just because you made the wrong assumption about its set feels unhealthy for the tier. Moreover, its natural bulk (HP and SpDef), combined with its raw power and speed, allows it to invest in Def. Even after this, the fact that it outspeeds the fastest scarfers at +2 is nuts. Roost and Tera Blast (which doesn’t make contact) make it incredibly hard to land significant chip damage on it. Essentially, you need to knock it out in one hit. If it restricts offense into running Scizor just to deal with Tera Fairy sets, what happens when it’s Tera Ground or Flying ?
One argument from those who favor the DNB stance is that you need to pressure it enough to prevent free setup. However, depending on its set, this mon can turn almost anything into setup fodder, as I’ve demonstrated with Zapdos. Luring in mons like Glowking or Ghold isn’t too hard. The mon can also hit, it isn’t programmed to automatically click DD. This forces players to make unreasonable plays, like staying in with Glowking to try to status it, knowing you still need that mon to deal with their Enamorus/Iron Moth/Iron Valiant.
Personally, I will be voting BAN, as you may have already guessed. I believe it is fair to say that Roaring Moon is an unhealthy presence in the tier. I don’t see how banning it would enable other mons, it’s just there and puts unnecessary pressure on the builder.
The DD Tera Flying Acrobatics sets, as well as the Choice sets, have been used throughout the generation without much controversy. I don’t think anyone has had a major issue with them. For the DD sets, yes, it required taking significant damage (e.g. Lando, Corv), sacking something, or burning your Tera, but dealing with it was never out of reach, especially with Rocky Helmet chip damage and its relatively poor physical bulk, which made it easy to revenge kill.
However, the rise of the bulkier variants has made this mon a topic of debate, and I believe Tera is the main reason for that. The uncertainty of what type it will become, and if it’s running Eq or not, is, in my opinion, the single most significant factor that makes it unbalanced.
While grinding for the reqs, I didn’t save the replays, but there was one moment in my last game where my opponent sent out Roaring Moon against my Samurott (which had Sacred Sword), and it Terastallized into Fairy type, then used DD. I assumed it was running DD Knock, Tera Blast, and Roost, as it also had Leftovers. I switched in Kingambit, thinking I could survive a +2 Tera Blast and KO with Iron Head, but then it revealed Earthquake. Another instance involved me using a Tera Ground Roost set against a balance team featuring
.They brought out Zapdos, and they clicked Thunder Wave, so I Terastallized to Ground type. This turned their Zapdos into setup fodder, and I won immediately because their ran offensive Zamazenta.
The fact that this mon can win instantly just because you made the wrong assumption about its set feels unhealthy for the tier. Moreover, its natural bulk (HP and SpDef), combined with its raw power and speed, allows it to invest in Def. Even after this, the fact that it outspeeds the fastest scarfers at +2 is nuts. Roost and Tera Blast (which doesn’t make contact) make it incredibly hard to land significant chip damage on it. Essentially, you need to knock it out in one hit. If it restricts offense into running Scizor just to deal with Tera Fairy sets, what happens when it’s Tera Ground or Flying ?
One argument from those who favor the DNB stance is that you need to pressure it enough to prevent free setup. However, depending on its set, this mon can turn almost anything into setup fodder, as I’ve demonstrated with Zapdos. Luring in mons like Glowking or Ghold isn’t too hard. The mon can also hit, it isn’t programmed to automatically click DD. This forces players to make unreasonable plays, like staying in with Glowking to try to status it, knowing you still need that mon to deal with their Enamorus/Iron Moth/Iron Valiant.
Personally, I will be voting BAN, as you may have already guessed. I believe it is fair to say that Roaring Moon is an unhealthy presence in the tier. I don’t see how banning it would enable other mons, it’s just there and puts unnecessary pressure on the builder.
This will be my first reqs and I felt that I had to participate in this because of how the state of the meta is attenuated to RM.
I will be voting ban, nothing much needs to be said that hasn't already said but to quickly point out the main issue is the diverse sets that it can run coupled with tera and you have something that's just too unpredictable.
I've previously run tera-fire roaring moon with tera blast and knock as the main attack which catches off-guard a lot of moltres, dragapult and cinderace hoping to go for a quick wisp and just reverse sweep games after chipping down defensive course like tusk. Bulky taunt sets allows it to shut down zapdos, dondozo and variants of gliscor and has arguably one of the best stat spreads for any offensive mon which allows for versatility when teambuilding. I think its a no-brainer that this needs to go, it was fun playing with RM but the meta has shifted into a state where only variants or variants of variants of certain already popular/common sets is being run and RM is responsible for this, i.e. limited teambuilding.
I will be voting ban, nothing much needs to be said that hasn't already said but to quickly point out the main issue is the diverse sets that it can run coupled with tera and you have something that's just too unpredictable.
I've previously run tera-fire roaring moon with tera blast and knock as the main attack which catches off-guard a lot of moltres, dragapult and cinderace hoping to go for a quick wisp and just reverse sweep games after chipping down defensive course like tusk. Bulky taunt sets allows it to shut down zapdos, dondozo and variants of gliscor and has arguably one of the best stat spreads for any offensive mon which allows for versatility when teambuilding. I think its a no-brainer that this needs to go, it was fun playing with RM but the meta has shifted into a state where only variants or variants of variants of certain already popular/common sets is being run and RM is responsible for this, i.e. limited teambuilding.
I got reqs, I was pretty ambiguous at first, leaning very slightly towards ban, but after reading through the arguments and playing the ladder I have been convinced that ban really is the right option. Many of my thoughts are reflected in some of what lucky333 has said. Both its strength combined with its unpredictability make it very oppressive, though it is not an urgent ban, I think the tier will be mostly okay even if Moon ends up staying. I will also say that the bulky sets are not truly the only problematic sets, rather, all Roaring Moon sets push each other into broken-ness by amplifying its unpredictability.
So far I am rather unconvinced by the Do Not Ban arguments, with Storm Zone making the most compelling one despite the fact their post was rather neutral. I think that, if you assume Moon's tera and moveset is predictable from preview, Do Not Ban becomes a lot more reasonable; however I am unconvinced. Multiple good moon sets can fit on any one team, and if your team is so weak to a particular mon or style that it relies on your dragon dance setup mon to have exactly the right tera, spread and moveset to not be a terrible team, then maybe that speaks to the unhealthy-ness of Moon as a pokemon that it encourages this kind of matchup interaction.
I'd like to address a point that kind of bothered me
Finally, this suspect kind of feels like it was kind of inevitable. Roaring Moon is, on paper, an amazing pokemon with an incredibly synergistic kit and amazing traits that benefit from all the quirks of the gen9 metagame. This strength was mostly kept in check by the high predictability of Moon, but now that the meta has settled into something stable and people are more free to experiment and make the most out of this mon, it makes sense that this predictability being thrown out makes the mon somewhat problematic. I am still open to contradictory arguments, and will be reading more posts in this and the other thread.
So far I am rather unconvinced by the Do Not Ban arguments, with Storm Zone making the most compelling one despite the fact their post was rather neutral. I think that, if you assume Moon's tera and moveset is predictable from preview, Do Not Ban becomes a lot more reasonable; however I am unconvinced. Multiple good moon sets can fit on any one team, and if your team is so weak to a particular mon or style that it relies on your dragon dance setup mon to have exactly the right tera, spread and moveset to not be a terrible team, then maybe that speaks to the unhealthy-ness of Moon as a pokemon that it encourages this kind of matchup interaction.
I'd like to address a point that kind of bothered me
I love Tera too, but why exactly should the decision to keep Tera in the tier imply that we should embrace its potentially negative aspects, and never question the jank it can bring? On the contrary, that decision should allow us to feel more free and confident banning the problematic users of the mechanic. Gen9 OU is a great tier, in part because of Tera, so let's make it even greater!
Finally, this suspect kind of feels like it was kind of inevitable. Roaring Moon is, on paper, an amazing pokemon with an incredibly synergistic kit and amazing traits that benefit from all the quirks of the gen9 metagame. This strength was mostly kept in check by the high predictability of Moon, but now that the meta has settled into something stable and people are more free to experiment and make the most out of this mon, it makes sense that this predictability being thrown out makes the mon somewhat problematic. I am still open to contradictory arguments, and will be reading more posts in this and the other thread.
Goug natural typing let it be immune to burn and neutral to scald plus its stab let it have neutral coverage versus basically every mon in the tier except for prima and heatran, with the latter that needs plenty of support to work, while moon has to go eq/acro or tb if doesn't want to get walled by fairies. Moon natural typing comes with good resistances but also with much more weaknesses than goug.
Typing let it be less of a tera hog than moon, which needs tera on non stab moves to deal enough damage or to find proper occasions of setup, dd knock tb roost/taunt sets also comes at the expense of having your tera basically locked, unless you want to be dead weight against dark resists
Still an insanely good mon i won't deny that, but i think goug allowed you to be more free in the builder and in game having less drawbacks overall. Hope you had a great weekend too.
Tiering based on mons using full resources (tera and tera blast) imo has the risk of loweing the offensive potential to the point where the remaining non teraed/tblasted mons cannot compete against the walls available, as they'll need those to setup enough/have double stab/expanding coverage to achieve that decently. Once moon gets banned (the most likely outcome), the mechanics will just be abused by the mons with the most similar profile (Kyurem and Dragonite) leading to potential suspect and ban, considering how generally ban happy this community is, especially the lower end of who achieve reqs ( don't take it as denigratory or elitist, i fall in the same skill category).
With breaking power getting reduced, Gliscor will become more and more insurmountable, leading to an inevitable ban. Once that is done, i fear Boots spam balance build will become the premiere teams structure, having the least drawbacks.
You'll be free to call this beeing catastrophist, and i won't say that you're wrong thinking that, but something similiar already happened during DLC1 and late meta of that period is the time i had the least fun on this site by far, so I don't think the decision could make the tier greater, at least in my eyes.
it's hella late here and I'm fried after 3 hours of smogtour lmao, so both resposes could lack points that can't come on my mind rn and overall the response could have been drawn up better for sure, I'll gladly continue the discussion on pm/dis if you want since this thread will close soon.
I'll add one more point, JackRG; unless you tier based on exact basis (ban all legendary/myticals etc) Tiering comes from a line drawn arbitrarily by whoever is in power of drawing it (council/voters) with no true right or wrong at the end of the day, one of the post above use ''vibecheck'' as a parameter, there's nothing more arbitrary and subjective than that. So the arrogance of saying that your vision is ''what's best for the tier'', that whoever thinks that moon is good for keeping fat in check suffers from skill issue (coming from who lmao) or that we fail to realize that moon has 5 teammates (thanks for letting us know, I've never noticed we were playing 6v6 lol) is just that, plain arrogance. I won't bother waste any more time with you, have a great day.
I will not lie to you, I wasn’t thinking about that when laying out my point lol. You are certainly right, this alone would make gouging’s typing superior for its role. I still think there are a ton of similarities between the 2 though, most of all being that they are 2 sweepers far too good at setting up and sweeping. Weekend was awesome and hope yours was too!
Either way the vote goes, glad to see the activity and people voicing their opinions. Only way the tier improves is through playerbase participation in these things. Peace and catch ya’ll on the other side of the suspect!
COALLA
From here:
Disclaimer: this is not an April Fools joke.
11 users who have earned voting requisites have not voted yet, but their votes will not affect the outcome of the vote.
Eligible Voters: 123
Votes: 112
Roaring Moon
Ban: 74
Do Not Ban: 38
Ban % = 66.07%
60% pro-ban majority is required for a ban, and the outcome will not be changed by more votes. Thus, Roaring Moon is now banned from SV OU. Tagging Marty and dhelmise to make the change on PS when they have the time; thanks!
Thank you to all who have voted. The vote will remain open for 16 more hours to allow the remaining people with voting requirements to vote here and have their vote count towards the Tiering Contributor badge if they so please. Voting will be closed at this time.
Votes will be made public at the formal deadline or whenever all 123 eligible voters have voted, whichever comes first.
Disclaimer: this is not an April Fools joke.
11 users who have earned voting requisites have not voted yet, but their votes will not affect the outcome of the vote.
Eligible Voters: 123
Votes: 112
Roaring Moon
Ban: 74
Do Not Ban: 38
Ban % = 66.07%
60% pro-ban majority is required for a ban, and the outcome will not be changed by more votes. Thus, Roaring Moon is now banned from SV OU. Tagging Marty and dhelmise to make the change on PS when they have the time; thanks!
Thank you to all who have voted. The vote will remain open for 16 more hours to allow the remaining people with voting requirements to vote here and have their vote count towards the Tiering Contributor badge if they so please. Voting will be closed at this time.
Votes will be made public at the formal deadline or whenever all 123 eligible voters have voted, whichever comes first.
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