Announcement Rollinem 7's - Vullaby Re-Suspect

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Coconut

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LC Leader

They can't ignore us together...flying through florescent weather
Well, what can be said that wasn't said in the previous Vullaby suspect test. It was one of the closest suspects in Little Cup history and was one of the most contentious for months on end. Vullaby is the pinnacle of Little Cup, it is one of the strongest offensive threats of the recent era, being able to run a variety of sets—physical, special, and mixed sets. Including its valuable support moves, Vullaby is one of the most diverse Pokemon in LC history.

So what exactly has changed since the last suspect that warrants another look at the buzzard? In the former metagame of the previous year, Vullaby was a jack-of-all-trades Pokemon. It covered several options on a team, including, but not limited to; fast revenge killer, defog support, Physical wallbreaker, and Knock Off user. Additionally, the meteoric re-rise of the Nasty Plot sets became synonymous with another aspect of Vullaby—Special sweeper. It became overpowering to the multitude of offensive threats. That being said, Vullaby was determined, in an extremely close vote, to be not banworthy at the time. Do Not Ban voters were varied in their reasons for their vote, some of the reasons cited were the multitude of soft checks to Vullaby. Some made that the advent of Special Attackers, particularly the fast ones, have been relatively unexplored and would severely damper Vullaby's impact on the metagame. Others claimed that Vullaby was easily revenge-killed by the likes of the priority users of the tier.

The special attackers of the tier in particular is a good starting point for how the meta has shifted. While Staryu has seemed to take a very slight dip in usage, there is a considerable rise in usage of the Psychic-types of the tier. Ponyta-Galar and Abra have become mainstays of the metagame for their ability to dish out large amounts of damages with their Psychic STABs and Fairy-type coverage. While these mons trade with Vullaby about evenly, with a slight advantage to the Psychics, their impact on the rest of the metagame has become more noticeable. Pawniard tends to be one of the safer picks into Psychic types, as it is able to throw Sucker Punches and is immune to the STAB moves, making it difficult for them to just spam the most damaging move in their arsenal. Ferroseed is one of the safest picks against Abra, in particular, not really fearing anything that Abra throws out while Abra is forced out by the incoming Knock Off or Thunder Wave.

Another fast Special Attacker to invade the tier is Porygon. While already one of the top Pokemon of the past year, the Choice Scarf sets have become extremely popular. Giving a potential Special Attack boost with Download, Porygon becomes incredibly difficult to handle as it immediately outspeeds the entire unboosted metagame and has a boost to deal extremely high damage. As one of the primary examples of development to beat Vullaby, this has proven to be detrimental to Vullaby counters throughout the metagame. Onix is severely threatened by the likes of Porygon, as an Ice Beam from a Scarf Porygon is too risky to throw Onix into. One correct prediction from your opponent immediately puts you on the back-foot—and removes your best Vullaby answer. This has also lead to a rise of the aforementioned Steel-types. Ferroseed and Pawniard become some of the most important Pokemon to take on Porygon, becoming the de facto Stealth Rock users of many teams.

With the rise of Grookey as one of the metagame's strongest Physical attackers and priority users, a few notable changes have been developed to better equip teams to handle the starter monkey in the form of role compression. Poison-types have become almost mandatory in handling Grookey. While Spritzee, a notable check to both Fighting-types and Vullaby, having a track record of forcing both out, is now a momentum sink who loses to Grookey. As a result, you can run Foongus to handle not only Grookey, but it can cover as your Fighting-check as well with its longevity in Regenerator. Koffing is another example of a Poison-type who should do well against Vullaby; it has a strong Thunderbolt and can absorb hits with its strong Defense stat, all while spreading burns with Will-O-Wisp. While Koffing does all of these things, it also shuts down common priority users, as Grookey and Timburr are completely sponged by him. Even Ground-type pokemon like Trapinch lose the only reason to use them through Neutralizing Gas, and while Onix can do some significant damage to it, coming into a burn is a risk that is often not worth taking. Additionally, the three strongest Poison-types support Vullaby amazingly. Foongus spreads sleep which could potentially give Nasty Plot Vullaby a set-up, Mareanie spreads Knock Off, giving Vullaby a chance to clean multiple Pokemon, and Koffing spreading burns makes it significantly easier to gain a speed boost with Weak Armor. The various soft checks and priority users of the metagame are completely shut down by what has become the one of the most common types of Little Cup, who also support Vullaby extremely well.

As a result of some of these changes, Vullaby has become more of an offensive threat and less of an unpredictable force. While many players were able to discern which Vullaby set you would be facing from the teambuilder, that natural skill and inherent ability which rewarded the better player has been diminished drastically. Most Vullaby sets tend to be the mixed set, opting for Heat Wave in the 3rd slot of Vullaby's moveset. While some might see this as an advantage to the development of the metagame, Vullaby still retains its extreme diversity in the 4th moveslot, as it is able to run just about all of the old moves that it was able to on the previous sets. Heat Wave is extremely threatening for the previously mentioned Pawniard and Ferroseed; turning them from reputable answers into low-grade soft checks for a particular set of Vullaby which has become much more uncommon. Vullaby also has no trouble ripping through Fighting-types as usual, with Endure completely shutting down Mienfoo ability to revenge kill it. Vullaby also does not fear the Poison-types of the tier, as they are easily ripped through due to their underwhelming speed stats and because of how much chip damage they generally take. Occasionally, a team's best option is to simply trade Vullaby, so the rest of the team could potentially win a matchup.

All-in-all, the council has decided that Vullaby is worth a re-suspect, and I highly urge everyone who has a particular opinion on the metagame to get out there and vote.

The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 78 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 78 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 82. As always, needing more than 50 games to reach 78 GXE is fine.

GXEminimum games
7850
78.249
78.448
78.647
78.846
7945
79.244
79.443
79.642
79.841
8040
80.239
80.438
80.637
80.836
8135
81.234
81.433
81.632
81.831
8230


For this suspect test, we will be using the regular LC ladder, so you must create a new account that begins with LCABY to qualify. When you have reached the requirements, click here to post your proof. Vullaby will be legal on the ladder until the suspect is over. The suspect period will end on Sunday, July 11th, at 11:59 PM EST.

When posting in this thread, please keep in mind these rules:
1. No one-liners or uninformed posts.
2. No discussion on other potential suspects or the suspect process.
3. Be respectful.

Your post will be deleted and possibly infracted if you fail to follow them.
 
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Kipkluif

Liever Kips leverworst
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I think a lot of the pro-ban arguments can be found in the Metagame Discussion thread, and I tend to agree with them; in short - Vullaby outspeeds the entire tier including scarfers after a Weak Armor Boost, Threatens the entire metagame with a multitude of sets, has options to beat it's few checks, and wears down pokémon for other threats (porygon/abra) too effectively. I will most likely be voting ban, but I'm willing to hear the other side of the argument.
 

Éric

mons is mons
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I just want to say that if you are voting to not ban Vullaby because you don’t want to play LCPL/SCL with a new, unknown meta just don’t. It would be very stupid to do that. Maybe don’t vote at all honestly

Aside of that, I do pretty much agree with all the ban arguments, like Vullaby being too good at what it does, having the options to easily deal with its few checks (Onix lol) and having many surprise factors to straight up rob a game. It is true that the metagame might be unstable with it gone, but a) we don’t know that and b) that shouldn’t be a problem or a factor to change a vote. Either way, i would vote ban if hated my life and decided to ladder
 
Well, this is the first time I make a post for a suspect but I think it's important for this one. Obviously, we don't all agree and I don't want to be severly criticized because I don't have the same point of view than "pro-ban" and I totally respect the differing views.



A few words from the translator (Acehunter1 Elfuseon ): I feel it's such a shame that there is barely any discussion about Vullaby during this suspect. It seems like most pro-ban arguments are out, but many anti-ban people seem to have given up the hope that Vullaby might not be banned. So I hope that the following will explain the reasons why I hesitate to vote ban, and spark some more discussion into such an important suspect for LC.

The "do not ban" arguments are simple :

1- It is true that Vullaby centralizes the meta. Every team requires at least one answer to its many potential sets, so it does restrict teambuilding. Onix, Pawniard, and rarely Omanyte are mandatory mons on a team to cope with Vullaby's offensive pressure. Pawniard isn't a guaranteed check either, since it can get dropped by Knock+Heat Wave after rocks with 13 SpA. Onix and Omanyte (and other Water/Rock types of the tier) seem to be the most reliable Vullaby checks. The problem in LC is that Arena trap exists and can easily remove the most common Vullaby checks right away. Therefore, Vullaby U-Turning on the check into a trapper becomes broken. Does the problem in this pattern lies in Vullaby's ability to U-Turn, or the ability of trappers to remove the Vullaby check? Trappers make Vullaby stronger, but Vullaby isn't broken itself. Without trapers, it would always be possible to bring Grookey, for example, which can potentially 6-0 a team depending on the sets it runs and which "checks" it faces. But that's an entire other topic, that we won't get into. Our conclusion is that Vullaby isn't broken itself, but trappers make it broken.


2- I've also read that Abra, Pony-G and Porygon have risen in usage since LCWC and combined with the U-Turn ability of Vullaby, it was really easy to use U-Turn + pivot + special attacker with Psychic coverage core. The argument that I saw is by removing Vullaby, we would limit the impact of this core, which is theoretically true. But doesn't Vullaby also limit the power of these three aforementioned Pokemon? Considering that the Psychic type (and Psychic attacks by extension) are gaining in popularity, does banning a dark type that soft checks these mons seems like a good idea? Even if it reinforce the core that we talked about, its still a good offensive and defensive meta regulator.

3- We'll probably get flamed for this, but we should definitely think about what the meta will looks like without Vullaby. First of all, Vullaby is the best and maybe the only viable defogger in the tier. Its only presence makes the Webs archetypes less prevalent. Not unplayable for sure, but the difficulty is to put Webs on and to maintain it while trying to counter Vullaby and avoid its Defog. So, without it, whats gonna happen? Staryu spinner teams are gonna rise but those can be countered by Pumpkaboo. Defog Timburr may be back but would increase the defensive Poison types' presence and strength in the meta. Wingull come back? Farfetch'd? Nonetheless, seems literally like a big chaos. Also without Vullaby, Grookey's power is gonna rise up even more. Already a soft check (just remember that wood hammer LO kills after rocks...), Grookey's counters will be very few and not so good depending of the set obviously. Will Grookey be able to stop Webs + Pumpkaboo archetype? Probably not due to speed reduce and Pumpkaboo knows fireblast ofc. And we were talking about Wingull, just remember that Grassy Glide OHKOes also. Finally, many subjects could be discussed like Scraggy and others, but in my opinion we clearly see that Vullaby is a very good meta regulator. DO NOT BAN

Finally, I especially want to thank my friends Acehunter1 and Elfuseon for their help because I'm clearly limited by my English... Thank you guys ! Good players and also nice guys :)
 
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Great post above ^^, but I'll also specify my stance a little more independently. I've been undecided for the longest time during this suspect and still am, and it's hard for me to choose a side, since anti-ban arguments haven't been clearly shared before. That's why I really wanted to get some kind of post up here. So now I'm just gonna mention some points on which I have a different opinion than Sciroccoo and Elfuseon.

First, I do not think trappers are broken and I do not think Arena Trap should be banned. Diglett definitely not, Trapinch can be up for debate. But I don't think trappers make Vullaby broken. I think Vullaby is very strong, obviously. Compared to SM Vullaby (yes I will compare to SM), it loses Hidden Power Grass, but in exchange benefits from Trapinch still being in the tier. It seems logical to me, with that being said, that Water/Rock types like Omanyte and Tirtouga should be an option to check Vullaby, and I think it's one that is underexplored.

Second, I've shared this before in the LC Discord, but I think Vull still plays a good defensive role. It is still one of the main Grookey switch-ins, alongside with Foongus and Koffing. It is also a good soft fight check, and good ground immunity, being pretty much the only viable bird that's left, with still restricted Pokedex compared to SM, Rufflet banned, and Wingull bad notably because of Grookey. Without it, I talked about how Grookey could be even more difficult to handle (I already think it's banworthy now, so I really wouldn't mind if it gets banned in a post-Vull meta), with Koffing and maybe Ponyta-K being almost the only reliable switch-ins to anything Grookey can throw at it. Also, I talked about how Ponyta-Galar could be more difficult to handle, since Calm Mind sets with Mystical Fire only gets walled by Vullaby, and those sets don't need to choose between Dazzling Gleam and Mystical Fire anymore. Certainly, Ponyta-Galar can be countered by many things, like Pawniard (but it must be wary of Mystical Fire), Scarf Mienfoo, and paralysis, but I think it would greatly increase in power. I didn't really think about Webs, but Sciroccoo definitely brings a good point.

All that being said, I still remain undecided. I'd also be curious to see a Vullaby-less meta. People have told me to not theorize about a post-Vull meta, saying what's broken after can just get suspected and banned and stuff. That is theoretically true, but in practice, I think it's hard not to think about what might result of the ban, and despite being somewhat curious, I'm also scared of what a Vullaby-less meta would look like, and if what we'll be left with after will really be better than what we have now.
 

Fiend

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i think the base assumptions in your first argument (trappers are broken, rock types are largely bad due to them) are flawed. for starters, the largest issues with something like tirtouga, which distinctly can overcome trappers, and archen, which is not trapped by trapinch or diglett, are ignored here. these issues, such as simply getting punished donating free turns to mienfoo, or being terrible defensive pokemon outside of specific interactions, are sidelined for the narrative that trappers are broken. you fail to note heatwave mixed vullaby being astronomically common (at least compared to 6 months ago) and how daming it is for most of these could-be checks to eat a knock off into u-turn. further, the checks for vullaby which do the best against vullaby and trappers are not considered very viable. there should be some greater incentive to run omanyte, tirtouga, and archen if trapping was truly the problematic element here. this is not to mention the fact that vullaby and trappers can both be broken concurrently if one is to believe that trapping is overbearing.

the following arguments (numbers 2 and 3) simply are not very good and do not address the chief concerns of people advocating for a ban. i will defer to the already existing well written posts in that thread.

argument #2 focuses on weakening cores that overload steels (hello pawniard). you neglect to include the real driver of this specific point, porygon, which vullaby does little to buffer against. vullaby soft checks much of the metagame, and specifically does alright versus sash abra and some ponyta-g sets. some of these sets (e.g. lo abra which is on the rise because diglett usage is low enough the risk seems justified) also just beat vullaby. there's a real tension here between the benefit from metagame trends which are largely vullaby centric and vullaby itself acting as a buffer to these pokemon. this is not new, though, and this line of argument must rely on future speculation to even feel valid. these pokemon will likely get stronger without vullaby on every team, sure, but that is beside the point. i don't feel that this argument has any teeth beyond trying to talk about the current metagame as a valid reason for why vullaby is a "good offensive and defensive meta regulator" with this premise. the argument does not stand on its own and fails to comply with the guidelines of our suspect system. this entire argument only begins to make any sense if you already think that vullaby was not broken. and if you thought this, you should discard the current premise and instead develop an argument on why vullaby is not broken and consequently should not be banned.

argument #3 is deeply frustrating. yesterday, in a conversation you were present for, a variety of users explained why we do not, should not, and specifically ask you not to consider future metagames. i'm going to quote myself from yesterday:
metagames are overlapping interactions and fairly complicated shifts happen when centralizing items are removed and people adapt over time. why would we ever want to tier assuming that we know what the outcome is
being repeatedly responded to with derivatives of "that's just your opinion, but here is mine" on this point is exhausting. you're providing me with an opinion i specifically do not ask for because it is intrinsically flawed and not suitable for the goals of the suspect process. if anything, the entire gamut of contradicting opinions about what happens in a post-vullaby metagame should serve as an excellent and relevant example as to why we do not tier based on anyone's assumptions. we can't even all agree on how banning this pokemon affects grookey, let alone anything less immediate. this speculation is not suppose to motivate your vote. there are edge cases and other nuances that exist, but the most fundamental thing is that this suspect test is asking a specific question about the current metagame and does not ask about future metagames. this question is if vullaby is broken. is vullaby broken? your presented arguments deflect from this question and refuse to engage with it.
 
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