RSE Baton Pass

[obi]

if the team is unprepared for baton pass [which easily over 1/2 adv teams are], that team will lose.

Click to collapse...

If your team is unprepared for Dragon Dancers, that team will lose. If your team is unprepared for stall teams, that team will lose. There isn't a single type of well-built team that you can't say this for. The solution isn't to ban BP teams, but to make your team prepared for it.

there was a stage in gen 4 uu, when many top players believed rain dance was overpowered. there was almost a mutual agreement between players that its "cheap" to use rain, and hopefully this is how baton pass teams will be interpreted in the tour.

Click to collapse...

no skarmbliss no viloplumes no baton pass ubbers no evolutios of piloswin no legends no cheat hax ban dc

I think that maybe those players who felt that way would find the philosophy of Serebii more in line with theirs than Smogon. Smogon is supposed to be for competitive Pokemon players who are playing to win.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

I'd like to fully encourage anyone who thinks they're broken to use them and win with them, just like you were supposed to do with suspects. There is definitely something to say for it, but it's not a clear cut case.

Click to collapse...

My thoughts exactly. If you think something is broken, win so much with it that it pisses everyone off to the point of banning it. That's how we do things 'round these parts.

I also disagree with the notion that Baton Pass teams are a no-thought way to win against good players. What good ADV player makes a tournament-ready team that gets destroyed by Baton Pass? That sounds just as foolish as making a team that can't beat Blissey. There are two seemingly conflicting points of view in this thread: one saying that BP teams aren't popular and another saying that they are broken. I would assume that if BP teams are so good, more people would use them. Maybe they don't because they are a massive liability?

 

[Heysup]

If I wanted to play in a Rock Paper Scissors tournament I would have signed up for a Rock Paper Scissors tournament on the competitive Rock Paper Scissors website.

We can't even compare this to UU rain because UU rain you could prepare for without actually hindering your team (for non UU-players this will not make a lot of sense). For example, Vensuaur and Raikou are both top tier UU Pokemon that didn't need to be tailored to shit all over Rain Dance teams. They are one-dimensional and share common weaknesses. If you sent in your Rain Dance Uxie in vs Raikou, it would SubCM and pick your team apart. You could also beat Rain Dance by carefully switching around during Rain if need be, and obviously this isn't a good strategy but it does work.

Baton Pass is extremely different. RSE Baton Pass makes you almost impossible to beat without any prediction, if your opponent doesn't fulfill all of these conditions:

a) Have Whirlwind (read: not Roar, Mr Mime says no).
b) Have something to outspeed and OHKO Smeargle.
c) Have perfect prediction.
d) Have something that can OHKO/Taunt Umbreon.
e) Have luck.

Skarmoy has Whirlwind. But you need to get Skamory in as soon as they use their stat boost, which in the case of Umbreon, you can't. If you keep Skarm in on Umbreon, it will Taunt and Substitute, meaning it can decide whether your next Pokemon is worth mean looking or worth setting up on.

The other thing that separates this from UU Rain is the ability to not have shared weaknesses, actually, quite the opposite. BP teams can have extremely diverse typing. One Pokemon from a BP team can undoubtedly set up on one of your Pokemon.

All in all, I don't think it's worth saying "well use it if it's broken" because at this point, we want to get rid of imbalanced play, especially in single elimination tournies. If some terrible player can just pick up a BP team and beat top tier players with it because they don't use Skarmory, can't OHKO Umbreon, and don't have perfect prediction, you're basically SOL vs BP.

I shouldn't be forced to carry Skarmory.

EDIT: @ LN: I am one of said scrubs.

 

[LonelyNess]

Just popping in to say its popularity is kind of irrelevant. Wobbufett was no where near what someone would consider "popular", and yet we banned that in Gen 4.

You have to realize that a VAST majority of our playerbase is, in fact, filled with scrubs. And these people have some weird self imposed code of "honor" that disallows them from using "cheap" strategies, Baton Pass included.

Now I'm not saying that Baton Pass is or isn't broken, but "it's not popular" is certainly not an argument against it being the former.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

I made plenty of ADV teams on NB that didn't rely on Skarmory to beat Baton Pass. It's the metagame that got me into competitive mons! (you all have adv to thank for my presence! :D )

a) Don't make teams weak to the status: Sleep
b) Something with Roar or Whirlwind
c) Bulky and/or Offensive pokemon that can 2hko common passers like Vaporeon and Celebi. Zapdos, Swampert, CBTar, Mence or Hera, Taunt Gyarados, Taunt DDTar, etc
d) Something to screw with other BP teams (PSong, Taunt + status, Sleeping them on the switch, etc)
e) Something that can OHKO Smeargle would be nice (although that's not too hard...)
f) Execute your own strategy instead of trying to guess what the opponent is going to do
g) Have luck

I think saying that you're forced to use Skarmory in ADV is questionable-at-best and a blatant exaggeration. And it's not like Skarmory would be a worthless Pokemon even if it did poorly against BP. Let's try to keep the discussion reasonable.

 

[Heysup]

I made plenty of ADV teams on NB that didn't rely on Skarmory to beat Baton Pass. It's the metagame that got me into competitive mons! (you all have adv to thank for my presence! :D )

a) Don't make teams weak to the status: Sleep
b) Something with Roar or Whirlwind
c) Bulky and/or Offensive pokemon that can 2hko common passers like Vaporeon and Celebi. Zapdos, Swampert, CBTar, Mence or Hera, Taunt Gyarados, Taunt DDTar, etc
d) Something to screw with other BP teams (PSong, Taunt + status, Sleeping them on the switch, etc)
e) Something that can OHKO Smeargle would be nice (although that's not too hard...)
f) Execute your own strategy instead of trying to guess what the opponent is going to do
g) Have luck

I think saying that you're forced to use Skarmory in ADV is questionable-at-best and a blatant exaggeration. And it's not like Skarmory would be a worthless Pokemon even if it did poorly against BP. Let's try to keep the discussion reasonable.

Click to collapse...

Looks like you listed more requirements than I did....

Skarmory isn't the "only" thing that works, but it's definitely the most reliable considering Mr Mime fucks with Roar even if you manage to stop their Ingrain (surprisingly hard for stall times to OHKO and outspeed Smeargle). Hariyama also works as a Whirlwinder, OHKOes Smeargle and Umbreon, but the consensus is that he's bad (I tend to disagree with this consensus, but it is the consensus nonetheless).

The real problem I have with BP is that once they get that inevitable +Speed, they can honestly just hop around until you mispredict because they get to see what you do (ie attack or switch, and to which Pokemon) so they will never mispredict themselves. One bad move against a BP team and you undoubtedly lose the game, and it's absurdly easy to cause. One bad move vs DD mence or DD tar and you're still fine, and said moves are essentially 50-50 predictions. It's "oh shit I have to go to Swampert and lose 40%" versus "oh shit...I can't do anything to this +4 Def +4 SpD +4 SpA mon."

 

[Kevin Garrett]

I am posting this for ]V[ajin Tupac_Z.

Not every good team counters BP. They destroy the fun and competitiveness of the game because bad players can beat good players with little or no skill. The German sites have a 2 BP limit and that is what a lot of players are accustom to, which is a contributing factor to why it is not seen much in SPL or anywhere else for that matter. Baton Pass obviously isn't uncounterable, but when you need counters in your team the risk is running into a well constructed team not thinking about playing in a BP metagame and then you have fewer options in those games. It makes it a game of matchups and there is no Est. Power feature on Pokemon Online to tip you off to your opponent using a BP team, where on NetBattle a lower number would indicate BP.

To me, it seems to draw parallels to Inconsistent teams in BW. Boring? Yes. Uncounterable? No. Uncompetitive? Yes.

 

[Pirotechnix]

We play a game with such a massive amount of potential playstyle options that it's inevitable someone is going to use a "cheap"/gimmick strategy that creates a mismatch for even the most talented players and greatest teams. We have Endure/Reversal when playing non-Tyranitar teams and Magneton+Dugtrio(+BP Celebi) teams, for example, that take little thought but can dominate a well-built team with little effort.

You want to be a good RSE player, you have to keep all of these potential team strategies in mind, just like newer gen players have to keep a far greater amount of Pokemon, movesets, items, and strategies in mind. One team is not going to be able to handle everything, so sure, in the short run your well-built team might lose a match to something like this. In the long run, though, you're going to have far more wins, which in a game with RNG and an insane number of possible Pokemon/item/move/EV combinations is really all that's important.

Eliminating BP chains won't affect me as a regular RSE player; I've played them, I've beaten them far more times than I've ever lost to them, and have no plans of ever using them in high-level play. But if you stop having fun and think "uncompetitive" because you lose to an (until we happened to bring it up) mostly obscure team strategy one time in a tourney, I question how you've survived playing Pokemon this long. Bad players beating good players is nothing new, but is never anything more than short-term.

(I guess this means that I disagree with the Inconsistent ban in BW based on principle, but since I don't play BW and that decision has already been made my argument is more based on personal observation than Smogon precedent)

 

[jrrrrrrr]

Looks like you listed more requirements than I did....

Click to collapse...

You misunderstood. You can have any number of those things and still do reliably well against Baton Pass. You don't need all of them.

I am posting this for ]V[ajin Tupac_Z.

Not every good team counters BP. They destroy the fun and competitiveness of the game because bad players can beat good players with little or no skill.

Click to collapse...

Can we get some logs of good players using good teams losing without ever having a chance against Baton Pass teams? I honestly don't believe that this is as big a problem as everyone is making it out to be. We've had this metagame for the better part of a decade now (FRLG released in 04), what new evidence has come up for this ban since the metagame died? The overwhelming sentiment in the last "mess with older gen" topic was that we didn't want to touch other gens at all, either their mechanics or our rules. Why the sudden change?

 

[Heysup]

We play a game with such a massive amount of potential playstyle options that it's inevitable someone is going to use a "cheap"/gimmick strategy that creates a mismatch for even the most talented players and greatest teams. We have Endure/Reversal when playing non-Tyranitar teams and Magneton+Dugtrio(+BP Celebi) teams, for example, that take little thought but can dominate a well-built team with little effort.

You want to be a good RSE player, you have to keep all of these potential team strategies in mind, just like newer gen players have to keep a far greater amount of Pokemon, movesets, items, and strategies in mind. One team is not going to be able to handle everything, so sure, in the short run your well-built team might lose a match to something like this. In the long run, though, you're going to have far more wins, which in a game with RNG and an insane number of possible Pokemon/item/move/EV combinations is really all that's important.

Eliminating BP chains won't affect me as a regular RSE player; I've played them, I've beaten them far more times than I've ever lost to them, and have no plans of ever using them in high-level play. But if you stop having fun and think "uncompetitive" because you lose to an (until we happened to bring it up) mostly obscure team strategy one time in a tourney, I question how you've survived playing Pokemon this long. Bad players beating good players is nothing new, but is never anything more than short-term.

(I guess this means that I disagree with the Inconsistent ban in BW based on principle, but since I don't play BW and that decision has already been made my argument is more based on personal observation than Smogon precedent)

Click to collapse...

As I said before, Rock Paper Scissors =/= Pokemon, if I wanted to play Rock Paper Scissors I would play Rock Paper Scissors.

If you're OK with the odd Rock Paper Scissors team match up, then I guess to each his own, however for tournament matches I'm very against that sort of thing happening.

You misunderstood. You can have any number of those things and still do reliably well against Baton Pass. You don't need all of them.

Click to collapse...

Well then you're just wrong, or purposely ambiguous in saying "any number". I don't need logs to show you that without one of those things you're likely going to get crushed by BP.

a) Have Whirlwind (read: not Roar, Mr Mime says no).

If you don't have this, you're simply going to get set up on and have no way to get rid of the boosts. Even if you have powerful attacks or even Taunt, they have more powerful boosts and you won't be able to break that Sub. Regardless of what else you have.

b) Have something to outspeed and OHKO Smeargle.

If you don't have this, even if you have a WWer, you're going to get ingrained and thus crushed for the same reasons you did for not having WW.

c) Have perfect prediction.

If you don't predict perfectly, even if you have WW and something to OHKO Smeargle, you're going to get set up on and your opponent is going to get at least +2 in a stat and the ability to hop around to whichever Pokemon counters your Pokemon. They don't need to predict, you just need to not mispredict.

d) Have something that can OHKO/Taunt Umbreon.

Obviously if you can't OHKO umbreon you are going to get locked in and set up on by their specific counter for your Pokemon.

e) Have luck.

This is more important than it seems. If you have all of the above, and your opponent manages to get a Subtitute on Zadpos, and the only way to break it's Sub is to Rock Slide...you need to be lucky.

Can we get some logs of good players using good teams losing without ever having a chance against Baton Pass teams? I honestly don't believe that this is as big a problem as everyone is making it out to be. We've had this metagame for the better part of a decade now (FRLG released in 04), what new evidence has come up for this ban since the metagame died? The overwhelming sentiment in the last "mess with older gen" topic was that we didn't want to touch other gens at all, either their mechanics or our rules. Why the sudden change?

Click to collapse...

I don't think anyone has been keeping logs for 5 years just for the occasion that someone requests them in a PR debate.

In any event, that topic was not remotely similar to this one since we are not doing a mechanics vs not mechanics debate. Completely different topics, the justification for some of the arguments in that thread is lackluster anyway, "don't fuck with old gens" is basically what it was.

 

[Pirotechnix]

As I said before, Rock Paper Scissors =/= Pokemon, if I wanted to play Rock Paper Scissors I would play Rock Paper Scissors.

Click to collapse...

Except Pokemon is basically an exceptionally advanced and nuanced RPS; what do you call "Fire beats Grass, Grass beats Water, Water beats Fire", if not a RPS mechanic at its very core? That's the model that most JRPGs thrive on. You're going to have a bad matchup from time to time; being skilled is knowing how to work around or beat that matchup.

In any event, that topic was not remotely similar to this one since we are not doing a mechanics vs not mechanics debate. Completely different topics, the justification for some of the arguments in that thread is lackluster anyway, "don't fuck with old gens" is basically what it was.

Click to collapse...

Considering that old gens have worked for that long, I'd say that's a pretty good argument steeped in years of precedence. We're wasting energy fixing things that aren't - and haven't been - broken.

 

[Heysup]

Except Pokemon is basically an exceptionally advanced and nuanced RPS; what do you call "Fire beats Grass, Grass beats Water, Water beats Fire", if not a RPS mechanic at its very core? That's the model that most JRPGs thrive on. You're going to have a bad matchup from time to time; being skilled is knowing how to work around or beat that matchup.

Click to collapse...

I don't really see how one would argue that Pokemon is a game in which requires no skill minus "prediction" and everyone has a 33% to win, 33% to draw, and 33% to lose. There are more aspects to the game then just prediction, there is actual strategy. Competitive Pokemon is, at its heart, a strategy game, is it not?

Of course, there are winners and losers and some Pokemon "beat" other Pokemon, but that is not remotely a strong enough argument to say that one is a more advanced and nuanced version of the same game because it's just ignoring the greater part of the game.

While I'll admit it's a similar concept, it's not just another version of the same game and isn't the one we signed up to play.

Considering that old gens have worked for that long, I'd say that's a pretty good argument steeped in years of precedence. We're wasting energy fixing things that aren't - and haven't been - broken.

Click to collapse...

While this seems to hold weight merely because "we've been doing it", the fact that we've been doing something for a long time should really not matter at all. "Appeal to <Tradition/Repetition/etc>" is a fallacy, and does not prove it's the best option. It proves that it works, but only that it works. If someone is presenting a better, or merely different option, it shouldn't be dismissed simply because "it's been working fine".

I think MajinTupac points out an interesting dilemma as well with PO vs NBS because it's pretty easy to figure out of someone is using a BP team on NBS. I'm unsure of the ruling on which should be, but if it happens to be PO then you actually reduce the risk of running a BP team because your opponent won't "know" that you're running one before it starts. Even on NBS, would you be able to tell your opponent "no wait I'm changing my team" when you see their team is likely BP? Playing a mismatch is not fun for either side and ventures away from the competitiveness of tournaments.

EDIT: I mean, to be honest, most of the adv players wouldn't use a BP team anyway.

 

[Umby]

While this seems to hold weight merely because "we've been doing it", the fact that we've been doing something for a long time should really not matter at all. "Appeal to <Tradition/Repetition/etc>" is a fallacy, and does not prove it's the best option. It proves that it works, but only that it works. If someone is presenting a better, or merely different option, it shouldn't be dismissed simply because "it's been working fine".

Click to collapse...

Who's to say what's best for something that was already working well enough for function and appeal in the first place? Granted the idea doesn't have to be outright dismissed, but a fit is being thrown over something that hasn't even shown any kind of significant influence yet. Why should we have to cater to that fit in such a case? We can honestly theorymon all day about this, and people will misconceive most points and it'll all boil down to the actual practice. Fact of the matter is that it should be proven through CONSISTENT results that BP chains are gonna fuck everything up before everyone shits their pants about it. That'll take weeks at the earliest.

 

[Heysup]

Who's to say what's best for something that was already working well enough for function and appeal in the first place? Granted the idea doesn't have to be outright dismissed, but a fit is being thrown over something that hasn't even shown any kind of significant influence yet. Why should we have to cater to that fit in such a case? We can honestly theorymon all day about this, and people will misconceive most points and it'll all boil down to the actual practice. Fact of the matter is that it should be proven through CONSISTENT results that BP chains are gonna fuck everything up before everyone shits their pants about it. That'll take weeks at the earliest.

Click to collapse...

My point was that it shouldn't be dismissed.

In any event, BP "do" fuck things up, but people don't want to be labeled "douchebags" for using a ridiculous strategy that many people consider broken. It's essentially not being used, which is the end goal anyway, but for the wrong reason. I hope this makes sense.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

If you're OK with the odd Rock Paper Scissors team match up, then I guess to each his own, however for tournament matches I'm very against that sort of thing happening.

Click to collapse...

How did you get started with this RPS false dilemma? EVERY team has disadvantageous matchups, including (and especially) Baton Pass teams, where if you don't start the match off two steps ahead of your opponent you are going to waste 30 turns hopelessly dying.

a) Have Whirlwind (read: not Roar, Mr Mime says no).

If you don't have this, you're simply going to get set up on and have no way to get rid of the boosts. Even if you have powerful attacks or even Taunt, they have more powerful boosts and you won't be able to break that Sub. Regardless of what else you have.

Click to collapse...

Pure, unadulterated theorymon where your opponent makes every correct guess with a perfect team while you make every incorrect guess with a poorly-planned team. I've busted through plenty of attempted BP setups without having to go out of my way. It's really not hard.

And Mr. Mime really isn't common on ADV BP teams, it only has one minimal advantage over Celebi (Soundproof) and that pathetic HP/Def and worse Speed doesn't make up for it.

b) Have something to outspeed and OHKO Smeargle.

If you don't have this, even if you have a WWer, you're going to get ingrained and thus crushed for the same reasons you did for not having WW.

Click to collapse...

This isn't an unreasonable thing for an ADV team to have, especially since things like Focus Sash didn't exist.

c) Have perfect prediction.

If you don't predict perfectly, even if you have WW and something to OHKO Smeargle, you're going to get set up on and your opponent is going to get at least +2 in a stat and the ability to hop around to whichever Pokemon counters your Pokemon. They don't need to predict, you just need to not mispredict.

Click to collapse...

If your team loses after one boost, you should probably go back to the drawing board in the first place.

d) Have something that can OHKO/Taunt Umbreon.

Obviously if you can't OHKO umbreon you are going to get locked in and set up on by their specific counter for your Pokemon.

Click to collapse...

Umbreon? Really?

I don't think anyone has been keeping logs for 5 years just for the occasion that someone requests them in a PR debate.

Click to collapse...

Well then obviously going back into history and changing ban lists isn't very important to them.

I don't think asking for logs to back up your blatant exaggerations is unreasonable. If you think BP is so broken that it can instantly make terrible players own ADV champions without even thinking, prove it.

In any event, that topic was not remotely similar to this one since we are not doing a mechanics vs not mechanics debate. Completely different topics, the justification for some of the arguments in that thread is lackluster anyway, "don't fuck with old gens" is basically what it was.

Click to collapse...

That doesn't change the fact that many of the posts in that thread went out of their way to also say no to changing banlists of older generations...which is exactly what I said in my post...

This entire thread exists because someone thought something *might* happen where a type of team could get "too popular", when this hasn't ever been an issue for the 6 years of Smogon ADV tournaments and tiering. I'm pretty sure that if something was broken in ADV, we would have found it by now.

 

[Heysup]

How did you get started with this RPS false dilemma? EVERY team has disadvantageous matchups, including (and especially) Baton Pass teams, where if you don't start the match off two steps ahead of your opponent you are going to waste 30 turns hopelessly dying.

Click to collapse...

I honestly don't know if you're disagreeing with me or agreeing with me (I guess the tone suggests some sort of disagreement...)

Did I not make it clear that Baton Pass teams - especially baton pass teams - have severe RPS "syndrome"? Or are you saying this is "false"? RPS goes both ways, it's just the concept that the players don't have much control over the result of the match. In this case I feel Baton Pass is Rock in a society where most people with good / viable teams have two fingers...

Pure, unadulterated theorymon where your opponent makes every correct guess with a perfect team while you make every incorrect guess with a poorly-planned team. I've busted through plenty of attempted BP setups without having to go out of my way. It's really not hard.

Click to collapse...

It was my mistake to get into theorymon. I'm just going to stop here and say "I'm sure you have".

And Mr. Mime really isn't common on ADV BP teams, it only has one minimal advantage over Celebi (Soundproof) and that pathetic HP/Def and worse Speed doesn't make up for it.

Click to collapse...

Yea, I looked back at my BP teams and realized I didn't have Mime (it was from my UU BP teams). My mistake. I have definitely seen it before with Scizor though.

This isn't an unreasonable thing for an ADV team to have, especially since things like Focus Sash didn't exist.

Click to collapse...

No it isn't for a regular offensive-ish team. However for stall-ish teams you're going to have trouble finding one, nevermind two (if he sleeps one). Even for a standard team you will have trouble finding two, he's not THAT weak or slow, few powerhouses both outspeed and KO (all I can think of are Heracross / Medicham / Blaziken (lol) off the top of my head)

If your team loses after one boost, you should probably go back to the drawing board in the first place.

Click to collapse...

I want to avoid theorymon, really, but just think about this for a second. What Pokemon can beat another Pokemon that counters it and has +2 Def/SpD before it sets up more?

Umbreon? Really?

Click to collapse...

Umbreon was used. "Mean Look" Baton Pass is a strategy I've definitely seen before.

I don't think asking for logs to back up your blatant exaggerations is unreasonable. If you think BP is so broken that it can instantly make terrible players own ADV champions without even thinking, prove it.

Click to collapse...

Alright I'll just get on the active ladder and play a bunch of matches....

Getting logs is reasonable thought, but it's not a reasonable expectation.

That doesn't change the fact that many of the posts in that thread went out of their way to also say no to changing banlists of older generations...which is exactly what I said in my post...

Click to collapse...

Yea, but that's not actual justification. I'm sure you can see that. Additionally, some users actually posted "no don't change older gens" in that thread and then "yea change it" in this thread.

This entire thread exists because someone thought something *might* happen where a type of team could get "too popular", when this hasn't ever been an issue for the 6 years of Smogon ADV tournaments and tiering. I'm pretty sure that if something was broken in ADV, we would have found it by now.

Click to collapse...

Very few of the top players actually enjoy using a BP team in RSE just because they automatically lose sometimes, but automatically win (no satisfaction from that) others. I don't think it's worth the risk to anyone and people know it doesn't make for a good competitive (ie skill involved) match. The concept of having an uncompetitive (as I define: involving a degree of skill) team is not exactly what we want to promote as a competitive community, at least from my point of view. It only really makes sense to just put in the 2 Pokemon Clause - this rule was put into some competitive tournaments already.

I guess this won't happen if there's an obvious majority of (adv??) players who don't want this to happen. I mean, the ADV players I talk to actually seem to be definitely on the "for banning" side...

EDIT: So in an attempt to make this issue go away can we just have a vote or something? I think, as usual, we are going to have another issue of players vs non-players, but whatever.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

Did I not make it clear that Baton Pass teams - especially baton pass teams - have severe RPS "syndrome"? Or are you saying this is "false"? RPS goes both ways, it's just the concept that the players don't have much control over the result of the match. In this case I feel Baton Pass is Rock in a society where most people with good / viable teams have two fingers...

Click to collapse...

You didn't do much to make it clear. It was already pretty obvious that BP teams depend heavily on team matchups to determine their success, because that is true of literally every pokemon team in every gen ever.

No it isn't for a regular offensive-ish team. However for stall-ish teams you're going to have trouble finding one, nevermind two (if he sleeps one).

Click to collapse...

So what? This makes it sound like Smeargle is "broken", not Baton Pass. If your team falls into this category, then Smeargle is going to murder you whether there are 6 Baton Pass users or just Smeargle.

Umbreon was used. "Mean Look" Baton Pass is a strategy I've definitely seen before.

Click to collapse...

Definitely not common enough to have to worry about, and also extremely difficult to pull off. Umbreon can't pass any boosts or attack so it's pretty much dead weight.

Alright I'll just get on the active ladder and play a bunch of matches....

Click to collapse...

This is exactly my point. How can we seriously be discussing a ban in a metagame that nobody plays anymore? There's no way we could possibly be thinking of bans until at LEAST the first round of the tour.

Getting logs is reasonable thought, but it's not a reasonable expectation.

Click to collapse...

You're right, it's completely unreasonable to expect the people talking about bans to have played the metagame in the last couple of months.

Very few of the top players actually enjoy using a BP team in RSE just because they automatically lose sometimes, but automatically win (no satisfaction from that) others.

Click to collapse...

I know I'm not the only one who isn't convinced that Baton Pass is an "automatic win", and nobody in this thread has done anything to prove it. Please stop saying this like it's a fact.

EDIT: So in an attempt to make this issue go away can we just have a vote or something? I think, as usual, we are going to have another issue of players vs non-players, but whatever.

Click to collapse...

I honestly don't see the point in having a vote to change a dead metagame when nobody has complained about it for literally years, especially in the light of nothing new. It's not like someone has been invincible on the ADV ladder with an unstoppable BP combination that they just discovered. I don't see the harm in waiting for a round of the tour to happen so that all of these supposedly unbeatable Baton Pass teams get a chance to prove how broken they may be.

I realize that you are impossibly stubborn, even moreso than myself, so I am going to try and sidestep away from this inevitable thread destruction...but your opinion's foundation is not nearly as strong as you're making it seem. Your main assumption (that BP is an automatic win) is faulty at best and also demonstrably false. Every argument you build on top of that is just as shaky. We're talking about bans in a 6+ year old metagame that hasn't had a new development in years...and you're sitting there acting like it's already a done deal that 100% of ADV players would suddenly crawl out of the woodwork and vote to ban BP, something that you think they've been secretly craving for years. Kind of unrealistic (to say the least).

 

[Heysup]

Kind of wish you would come on irc

You didn't do much to make it clear. It was already pretty obvious that BP teams depend heavily on team matchups to determine their success, because that is true of literally every pokemon team in every gen ever.

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Strawman. Not even close to the same extent, and again, I'm sure you know that.

So what? This makes it sound like Smeargle is "broken", not Baton Pass. If your team falls into this category, then Smeargle is going to murder you whether there are 6 Baton Pass users or just Smeargle.

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Smeargle can't do much by itself except lolbellydrum ExtremeSpeed sweep. It needs the BP team to actually be effective.

Definitely not common enough to have to worry about, and also extremely difficult to pull off. Umbreon can't pass any boosts or attack so it's pretty much dead weight.

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Curse? Wish? Taunts? (Pick two of those 3 along with Substitute + BP). It's not dead weight and it's not something absurd like Mr Mime that I mistakenly brought up earlier.

This is exactly my point. How can we seriously be discussing a ban in a metagame that nobody plays anymore? There's no way we could possibly be thinking of bans until at LEAST the first round of the tour.

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The OU gen 3 ladder on PO is getting slightly better lately, but the amount of time it would spend to get logs for you isn't going to be worth it to me or any of us because, really, you don't need logs to see this.

You're right, it's completely unreasonable to expect the people talking about bans to have played the metagame in the last couple of months.

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I don't think it's proper etiquette to take shots like this in PR, but the irony in your statement is quite priceless.

I know I'm not the only one who isn't convinced that Baton Pass is an "automatic win", and nobody in this thread has done anything to prove it. Please stop saying this like it's a fact.

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It's a near automatic brainless win against some teams and a near an automatic loss against others. I've said that it goes both ways. It's just that it definitely happens moreso in favor of BP.

I honestly don't see the point in having a vote to change a dead metagame when nobody has complained about it for literally years, especially in the light of nothing new. It's not like someone has been invincible on the ADV ladder with an unstoppable BP combination that they just discovered. I don't see the harm in waiting for a round of the tour to happen so that all of these supposedly unbeatable Baton Pass teams get a chance to prove how broken they may be.

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It's definitely been brought up before, if I recall correctly. I mean it's even claused in some adv tournaments.

Your main assumption (that BP is an automatic win) is faulty at best and also demonstrably false. Every argument you build on top of that is just as shaky. We're talking about bans in a 6+ year old metagame that hasn't had a new development in years...and you're sitting there acting like it's already a done deal that 100% of ADV players would suddenly crawl out of the woodwork and vote to ban BP, something that you think they've been secretly craving for years. Kind of unrealistic (to say the least).

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lol. This is ironically close to the truth being many (obviously not 100%) adv players actually do hate the fact that BP chains exist. They just don't see the point in posting here because the opinion of non-players is the same as the opinion of the players. The fact that you see my argument as a one-dimensional "BP ALWAYS WINS" sort of deal is your blatant attempt to strawman me, I've said many times already that it's the "not being able to control the outcome" that bothers so many players, never mind the easiness of said wins by BP teams. And again, your attempted strawman is ironically close to the true situation.

 

[Mekkah]

And Mr. Mime really isn't common on ADV BP teams, it only has one minimal advantage over Celebi (Soundproof) and that pathetic HP/Def and worse Speed doesn't make up for it.

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Trickband, Encore, Thunderbolt. Using Mr. Mime over Celebi is high risk/high reward. With Celebi, you are better off against a lot of attackers, especially Electrics and Gengar, but against things with Roar, you have a better option than trying to get Smeargle's fragile butt on the field to Ingrain while every boost you use is blown away. In addition, Mr. Mime can temporarily or permanently lock things into an attack. Considering the BP chain packs several immunities (Ninjask vs Earthquake, Vaporeon vs Surf) or at least quite a few resistances, this can be key to an easy set-up, since you'll always have a way to get a Substitute up. Mr. Mime can win you the game by himself. Not that Celebi is necessarily worse, but it's a player preference choice rather than the better option.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

Strawman. Not even close to the same extent, and again, I'm sure you know that.

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If that's a strawman then so is yours - Stall teams have severe "RPS syndrome" (assuming that's even a bad thing, sounds like a red herring to me) yet I don't see anyone seriously calling for a SkarmBliss ban. There's an RPS element to every game, that is the nature of pokemon because they all have individual strengths and weaknesses. There's no such thing as a perfect team, even in Ubers.

I still want to see this invincible Baton Pass team that can make ADV amateurs beat tournament-ready teams without even thinking.

Smeargle can't do much by itself except lolbellydrum ExtremeSpeed sweep. It needs the BP team to actually be effective.

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Or just one recipient of the Belly Drum pass...

The OU gen 3 ladder on PO is getting slightly better lately, but the amount of time it would spend to get logs for you isn't going to be worth it to me or any of us because, really, you don't need logs to see this.

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Considering that I've spent most of my pokemon time in ADV and haven't seen someone thinking it's broken before this thread, it's going to take a lot more than your exaggerations and faulty assumptions to persuade me that there's a ban needed.

The fact that you see my argument as a one-dimensional "BP ALWAYS WINS" sort of deal is your blatant attempt to strawman me

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It's not a strawman, it is literally what you are saying:

Very few of the top players actually enjoy using a BP team in RSE just because they automatically lose sometimes, but automatically win

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This whole thread you've been saying that BP is broken but not popular because there's some mysterious code of honor where good players don't want automatic wins (and that bad players can beat good players without thinking because of BP). I'm fully aware of what your argument is, but I don't buy it.

 

[Heysup]

If that's a strawman then so is yours - Stall teams have severe "RPS syndrome" (assuming that's even a bad thing, sounds like a red herring to me) yet I don't see anyone seriously calling for a SkarmBliss ban. There's an RPS element to every game, that is the nature of pokemon because they all have individual strengths and weaknesses. There's no such thing as a perfect team, even in Ubers.

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But it's still within the users control to some extent. With Baton Pass it isn't really within the players' control (to a large extent) - especially after you get the +Speed. Stop trying to strawman this argument, I know it may be a challenge to refute but I'm sure you can think of something.

Considering that I've spent most of my pokemon time in ADV and haven't seen someone thinking it's broken before this thread, it's going to take a lot more than your exaggerations and faulty assumptions to persuade me that there's a ban needed.

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Surprising, you have not experienced any anecdotal evidence to support my claim.

It's not a strawman, it is literally what you are saying:

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Where did I say "BP always wins" in that statement (I actually said something that contradicts it completely, comical)? Please, point it out. Strawman.

This is going to get nowhere unless other people post (without strawmaning..........). I guess, nowhere is in the best interest of some of the parties in this thread, but a solution is preferable, whatever it may be.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

But it's still within the users control to some extent. With Baton Pass it isn't really within the players' control (to a large extent) - especially after you get the +Speed. Stop trying to strawman this argument, I know it may be a challenge to refute but I'm sure you can think of something.

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Even after the first series of boosts it is still perfectly feasible to beat a BP team. If what you said here was true, any BP team that leads with Ninjask shouldn't be beatable by normal methods.

Surprising, you have not experienced any anecdotal evidence to support my claim.

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Still waiting for those logs and that team. And it's your job to provide the proof here, since you're the one calling for a ban.

Where did I say "BP always wins" in that statement? Please, point it out. Strawman.

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You said that good players don't use BP teams because they don't want automatic wins, and you've said that bad players can just use BP to beat good players without thinking. Do you read these forums one post at a time or are you able to scan entire threads and piece together an argument?

This is going to get nowhere unless other people post. I guess, nowhere is in the best interest of some of the parties in this thread, but a solution is preferable, whatever it may be.

Click to collapse...

We already have a solution: keep the banlist that has stood without challenge for years, because there's no new evidence that BP is broken enough to ban. The burden of proof is on the people that want a ban here.

At worst, just wait until the first ADV round of the tour to prove your point. You'll have plenty of chances to get logs with that invincible BP team of yours.

 

[Heysup]

This thread is like a seesaw, the kind that makes you want to throw up after a while. And whoever gets off first loses.

Even after the first series of boosts it is still perfectly feasible to beat a BP team. If what you said here was true, any BP team that leads with Ninjask shouldn't be beatable by normal methods.

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Define "normal methods", and why lead with Ninjask? (synre tells me most bad people lead with it). If by normal methods you mean attacking / phazing then yes because those won't work when your opponent doesn't need to predict your attack. Try Spore / Ingrain --> Ninjask --> etc.

Kyogre is feasibly beaten by a UU team with Ludicolo or Quagsire. Drop it down or clause BP chains, otherwise your logic is inconsistent.

Still waiting for those logs and that team. And it's your job to provide the proof here, since you're the one calling for a ban.

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Here you can help me out use a team with Lead smeargle / Zapdos / Vaporeon / celebi (or Mr Mime if you're ballsy) / scizor (or mawile if you're ballsy) / reciever.

You said that good players don't use BP teams because they don't want automatic wins, and you've said that bad players can just use BP to beat good players without thinking. Do you read these forums one post at a time or are you able to scan entire threads and piece together an argument?

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I'm sorry, where did I say "BP always wins"? Please, point it out.

We already have a solution: keep the banlist that has stood without challenge for years, because there's no new evidence that BP is broken enough to ban. The burden of proof is on the people that want a ban here.

At worst, just wait until the first ADV round of the tour to prove your point. You'll have plenty of chances to get logs with that invincible BP team of yours.

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I'd rather prevent a problem then deal with it after.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

I'm sorry, where did I say "BP always wins"? Please, point it out.

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You didn't say "BP always wins" directly, but from a combination of your posts you implied that BP was unbeatable in the hands of any decent ADV player. If you stopped to think about what your posts say together instead of just trying to drag the argument out you would realize what you're saying. Let me walk you through this post by post to show you why everything you've said in this thread is ridiculous.

Very few of the top players actually enjoy using a BP team in RSE just because they automatically lose sometimes, but automatically win

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this implies that good players would automatically win with BP teams. (false)

If I wanted to play in a Rock Paper Scissors tournament I would have signed up for a Rock Paper Scissors tournament on the competitive Rock Paper Scissors website.

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this implies that only a lucky team matchup can lead to victory vs BP (false)

We can't even compare this to UU rain because UU rain you could prepare for without actually hindering your team

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implies that you have to go out of your way to have a dedicated BP counter just to have a chance of winning (false, and even if it was true this isn't necessarily a bad thing)

Baton Pass is extremely different. RSE Baton Pass makes you almost impossible to beat without any prediction, if your opponent doesn't fulfill all of these conditions:

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here you explicitly state that it's almost impossible to beat unless you're counterteaming, which does most of my work for me

If some terrible player can just pick up a BP team and beat top tier players with it because they don't use Skarmory, can't OHKO Umbreon, and don't have perfect prediction, you're basically SOL vs BP.

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"some terrible player can just pick up a BP team and beat top tier players" (false)
"if you aren't using Skarmory or cant OHKO umbreon you lose" (false)

I shouldn't be forced to carry Skarmory.

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and to boot you think that Skarmory is the only way to beat BP teams

I can't believe I have to trace your own posts out to convince you that you hold your own stance. Don't worry though. As long as you get the last word, everyone will know you're right!

I'd rather prevent a problem then deal with it after.

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...banning something without evidence is creating a problem, not preventing it.

 

[Heysup]

Maybe whoever throws up first should lose...

You didn't say "BP always wins" directly, but from a combination of your posts you implied that BP was unbeatable in the hands of any decent ADV player. If you stopped to think about what your posts say together instead of just trying to drag the argument out you would realize what you're saying. Let me walk you through this post by post to show you why everything you've said in this thread is ridiculous.

Click to collapse...

Thank you for admitting your strawman, that is the first step. The next step is to stop strawmaning.

this implies that good players would automatically win with BP teams. (false)

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So "automatically lose or automatically win" = automatically win? I don't see your logic (I use the term very loosely) here, man. Please, explain.

this implies that only a lucky team matchup can lead to victory vs BP (false)

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Yes only a(n) (un)lucky matchup against a BP team will cause a win (loss). That's how Rock Paper Scissors works. And I mean the game, not the model. This statement will inevitably be strawmanned because you're going to say "Team matchups happen" and I'll just take a second to explain that I am saying you can divide teams into these groups. BP (Rock), counter-BP (paper), regular (scissors). You don't just have a little "advantage" like you do with a team with stallbreakers vs stall. You, legitimately, 33% chance to win, 33% to lose, and 33% to have a "competitive" game (assuming they are used the same amount, which in this example isn't necessarily true, you have more regular teams that lose to the BP teams).

implies that you have to go out of your way to have a dedicated BP counter just to have a chance of winning (false, and even if it was true this isn't necessarily a bad thing)

Click to collapse...

So if a Gen 4 UU team has to go out of their way to include Quagsire / Ludicolo / etc. on their team just to deal with Kyogre, it's not a bad thing? Too few things actually reliably beat BP teams, similar to Kyogre in UU (obviously not as bad, but same situation).

here you explicitly state that it's almost impossible to beat unless you're counterteaming, which does most of my work for me

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So you've pointed out that I said something, and?

"some terrible player can just pick up a BP team and beat top tier players" (false)

Click to collapse...

So the fact that top tier players (synre (on irc), jabba, ipl, etc) are complaining about this very thing means nothing right?

"if you aren't using Skarmory or cant OHKO umbreon you lose" (false)
and to boot you think that Skarmory is the only way to beat BP teams

Click to collapse...

I already admitted that this was a blatant exaggeration, but it's not a big one. Skarmory is definitely the most viable WWer.

...banning something without evidence is creating a problem, not preventing it.

Click to collapse...

"we've been playing this gen for 6 years" we have all experienced it already. That's like claiming there's no evidence to ban anything on the ladder, even if it's somewhat subjective it is quite valid. Logs aren't the only form of evidence. They aren't even the best, especially considering that when people post logs they are almost always flawed in one way or another, and in many cases people will create a flaw if there isn't one. This is the same thing as the suspect tests: top tier players think there's an issue with something.

The only non-strawman against clausing BP is that "we don't want to change old gens". If this is going to be our official policy, then let's make it our official policy. If that isn't our official policy, then the current arguments against it don't hold any weight whatsoever as we can see by the constant strawman attempts.

So I ask not if BP is broken or not (leave this to the people who actually play advance, thanks), but if we are going to "allow" changes to old gens. What are the thoughts on that?