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RSE Donphan (Minor Edits)

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http://www.smogon.com/rs/pokemon/donphan

I've always loved Donphan, but the current RSE analysis has some things that need touched up, so I've made some minor changes (and one "major" change).

Changes:

- I'm Combining the first two sets since they're nearly identical. Everything is the same except the first has Rapid Spin and the other has Roar (and Adamant is an option for the nature on the Spinner). Since the second set has essentially one sentence of set comments, they would probably be better off combined. They don't really play differently either. Sure, you're more paranoid about Gengar and Dusclops if you're running Rapid Spin and you can abuse Spikes with Roar, but Donphan still stops the same things and is stopped by the same things. As for the difference in natures, I honestly don't know why Adamant is slashed on one set but not the other since they play very much the same way. I guess Defense is a little more important on something using an attack with a negative priority, but Donphan always goes last anyway. I'm using Impish as the preferred option and Adamant as the second option, but they both work.

- Because of both sets being combined and the next reason, I'm going to make some changes to the set comments for what I guess will be called the "Tank" moveset. However, they are pretty much going to mirror the current comments for the Rapid Spin set, but they will mention Roar and be less choppy. As far as the name of the set is concerned, it could just stay "Rapid Spinner" since it's the main option and is generally more useful than Roar.

- There are a lot of fragments and short/choppy sentences in the analysis. While that fine to a degree and is just a different style of writing I suppose, it is a little excessive and makes it look a bit messy. Also, there were some commas in places that I'm pretty sure they don't go (but put them back in if anything is wrong). Certain parts of the analysis are going to be rewritten or slightly changed to make it look a little more polished. Also, the current analysis for the Choice Bander is using "2HKOs" as the verb form, which should be "2HKOes". Other than that, the Choice Bander isn't going to be changed at all unless anybody is willing to put Speed EVs on it to beat Blissey and -Speed Swampert. The EV section was reworded to fit that the two defensive sets were combined, and I added some examples of Donphan counters (since even though the counters section is pretty accurate, some examples probably wouldn't hurt).

Alright, that's about it. Here is the entire edited analysis:

________________________________________________

[SET]
name: Tank
move1: Earthquake
move2: Hidden Power Rock
move3: Rest
move4: Rapid Spin / Roar
item: Leftovers
nature: Impish / Adamant
evs: 252 HP / 44 Atk / 188 Def / 24 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Donphan is your typical physical tank and Rapid Spinner. Switch it into one of the many physical attacking Pokémon that it can handle, and Donphan can attack or Rapid Spin. Thanks to its high base Attack and powerful STAB Earthquake, Donphan's damage output is a lot higher than almost every physical wall in OU. Hidden Power Rock is generally superior to Rock Slide because Donphan is too slow to go for the flinch on anything he'd be using Rock Slide on. Also, Hidden Power Rock does more average damage and has more PP (which can be quite useful vs. a stall team, which is when Rapid Spin Donphan really shines). While Donphan is one of the few good users of Rapid Spin, it can also use Roar to function as a pseudo hazer against Pokémon like Snorlax, Salamence, and Ninjask.</p>

[SET]
name: Choice Bander
move1: Earthquake
move2: Rock Slide
move3: Hidden Power Bug / Hidden Power Ghost
move4: Rapid Spin
item: Choice Band
nature: Adamant
evs: 80 HP / 188 Atk / 216 Def / 24 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>This set is useful for four big reasons. The first is that as long as your opponent has Dusclops, Gengar, or some other Ghost alive, you won't be able to Rapid Spin. The Choice Band allows Donphan to 2HKO Dusclops with Earthquake and 2HKO Gengar with Rock Slide. The second is that Donphan has a horrible typing, as far as special resistances go, and matches it with an equally bad Special Defense. For this reason, Donphan has to either kill whatever special attacker is coming in with one hit, or switch out. Choice Band perfectly suits this sort of hit-and-run style of play. The third reason is that Donphan has a massive Attack stat. The fourth is sheer surprise. Donphan OHKOes Celebi with Hidden Power Bug, for instance, and nearly 2HKOes Suicune (it does 2HKO all other Waters) with Earthquake. Hidden Power Ghost can be used over Hidden Power Bug to knock out Gengar in one hit and still do some damage to Celebi.</p>

[Other Options]

<p>Counter is a nice surprise, although Donphan shouldn't be taking much physical damage anyways, and it does enough to Tyranitar with STAB Earthquake. Body Slam can paralyze, but that's about it. Substitute can be used on the Rapid Spinner in place of Rest to beat Dusclops one on one and ease prediction, but Donphan will be worn down much quicker. Toxic can be used to cripple Swampert and other Waters that often switch in on Donphan.</p>

[EVs]

<p>You'll generally want max HP and fairly equal Attack and Defense. 24 Speed EVs allows Donphan to outspeed Relaxed Swampert, but if you aren't worried about the mudfish, you can dump the EVs into Attack or Defense instead. The Choice Bander needs a bit more Attack than the Rapid Spinner. The remaining EVs are split between HP and Defense for maximum physical survivability.</p>

[Opinion]

<p>Donphan has the advantage over Claydol, Starmie, and other Rapid Spinners of actually being able to hurt the number one Rapid Spinner threat, Dusclops. However, it has serious problems with a lack of a real recovery move, and the fact that it's hurt by the Spikes that it's coming in to spin. With how popular Substitute Skarmory has become, Donphan is a rather sad elephant when it's unable to spin vs. the flying tin can on Netbattle. It also has trouble with the poison status, something Starmie can shrug off thanks to Natural Cure. It makes an excellent Dragon Dance Tyranitar counter, but has some troubles with Boah.</p>

[Counters]

<p>Donphan dies to anything special. Anything. Probably even another Donphan with Hidden Power Grass. It would not be surprising. The trick is just to get them in without dying to Donphan's massive Attack. With that in mind, bulky Water-types and Celebi make solid counters to the defensive set, but the Choice Bander do can serious damage to almost all of them. Skarmory and Flygon make good counters to the Choice Bander, and prediction in general will usually work.</p>
 
I'd probably add enough speed to outpace swampert. Maybe a total stat of 142-ish. It comes in surprisingly handy. If you really wanted to be wild you could use 160~ and have the upper hand on subbing tars. I've always liked sub over rest on the first set if I'm using spin. It allows you to win against dusclops 1 on 1 and it helps with the gengar predictions. Over 180 speed was useful on nb when sub skarm blocked spikes but hopefully that glitch isn't relevant any more.
 
I'd probably add enough speed to outpace swampert. Maybe a total stat of 142-ish. It comes in surprisingly handy. If you really wanted to be wild you could use 160~ and have the upper hand on subbing tars. I've always liked sub over rest on the first set if I'm using spin. It allows you to win against dusclops 1 on 1 and it helps with the gengar predictions. Over 180 speed was useful on nb when sub skarm blocked spikes but hopefully that glitch isn't relevant any more.

For the Speed EVs, did you mean the defensive set or CB set, or both? Using X-Act's defense EV applet, a spread for the Choice Bander I came up with is 76 HP / 188 Atk / 216 Def / 28 Spe with an Adamant nature. The Attack stays the same, 28 Speed lets it outspeed Swampert, and the HP and Def EVs give it maximum physical survivability. With HP Bug, it yields 340 HP / 355 Atk / 330 Def / 140 SpA / 155 SpD / 142 Spe. I don't know if that should replace the current EV spread or not, but I definitely support it having Speed for Swampert since Earthquake fucks up Swampert pretty badly.

Substitute sounds like an interesting option over Rest, so I could mention it in Other Options or in the set comments?
 
I meant it on any donphan set. I've never personally used CB but it's probably even more important for it.
 
Alright, I put in Speed on both sets. 24 EVs gives it 141 Speed, one more point than 0 Spe Relaxed Swampert, and I edited in my custom EV spread for the CBer though I'm perfectly fine with going back to the old one (as long as it outspeeds Swampert since Donphan CAN beat it, and it would be silly not to take advantage of that). I was thinking that maybe a little more HP and less Defense could help with the random HP Grasses that can come up to hit Swampert, but it probably wouldn't make a difference so eh.

Anything else I'm happy to listen to. Thanks husk =)
 
The only few problems I saw with this, grammar-wise, was the amount of shorthand. Like, for example, bulky Waters should be bulky Water-types, and Boah should be TyraniBoah, even if it's blatantly obvious. Also, I would explain why to go Adamant instead of Impish on the 'Tank' set, as when I played ADV I never thought of going Adamant.
 
The only few problems I saw with this, grammar-wise, was the amount of shorthand. Like, for example, bulky Waters should be bulky Water-types, and Boah should be TyraniBoah, even if it's blatantly obvious. Also, I would explain why to go Adamant instead of Impish on the 'Tank' set, as when I played ADV I never thought of going Adamant.

It's almost self-explanatory...it's just to hit its usual switch-ins harder. I've always preferred Impish since it's a defensive Pokemon and I really wouldn't mind if it was removed as an option completely. Donphan is pretty flexible with its nature and EVs as long as you don't do anything real stupid so I don't see the harm and keeping both, but if Adamant really is that obscure I have no problems removing it.

And thanks. I added the changes.
 
maybe I'm weird but I'd consider Hidden Power Ghost on CB Donphan to OHKO Gengar and still do some damage to Celebi; since Gengar is faster 2HKOing it doesn't really cut it when it can Ice Punch your face in.
 
[SET]
name: Tank
move1: Earthquake
move2: Hidden Power Rock
move3: Rest
move4: Rapid Spin / Roar
item: Leftovers
nature: Impish / Adamant
evs: 252 HP / 44 Atk / 188 Def / 24 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Donphan is your typical physical tank and Rapid Spinner. Switch it into one of the many physical attacking Pokémon that it can handle, and Donphan can attack or Rapid Spin. Thanks to its high base Attack and powerful STAB Earthquake, Donphan's damage output is a lot higher than almost every physical wall in OU. Hidden Power Rock is generally superior to Rock Slide because Donphan is too slow to go for the flinch on anything he'd be using Rock Slide on. Also, Hidden Power Rock does more average damage and has more PP (which can be quite useful vs. a stall team, which is when Rapid Spin Donphan really shines). While Donphan is one of the few good users of Rapid Spin, it can also use Roar to function as a pseudo hazer against Pokémon like Snorlax, Salamence, and Ninjask.</p>

[SET]
name: Choice Bander
move1: Earthquake
move2: Rock Slide
move3: Hidden Power Bug
move4: Rapid Spin
item: Choice Band
nature: Adamant
evs: 80 HP / 188 Atk / 216 Def / 24 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>This set is useful for four big reasons. The first is that as long as your opponent has Dusclops, Gengar, or some other Ghost alive, you won't be able to Rapid Spin. The Choice Band allows Donphan to 2HKO Dusclops with Earthquake and 2HKO Gengar with Rock Slide. The second is that Donphan has a horrible typing, as far as special resistances go, and matches it with an equally bad Special Defense. For this reason, Donphan has to either kill whatever special attacker is coming in with one hit, or switch out. Choice Band perfectly suits this sort of hit-and-run style of play. The third reason is that Donphan has a massive Attack stat. The fourth is sheer surprise. Donphan OHKOes Celebi with Hidden Power Bug, for instance, and nearly 2HKOes Suicune (it does 2HKO all other Waters).</p>

[Other Options]

<p>Counter is a nice surprise, although Donphan shouldn't be taking much physical damage anyways, and it does enough to Tyranitar with STAB Earthquake. Body Slam can paralyze, but that's about it. Substitute can be used on the Rapid Spinner in place of Rest to beat Dusclops one on one and ease prediction, but Donphan will be worn down much quicker.</p>

[EVs]

<p>You'll generally want max HP and fairly equal Attack and Defense. 24 Speed EVs allows Donphan to outspeed Relaxed Swampert, but if you aren't worried about the mudfish, you can dump the EVs into Attack or Defense instead. The Choice Bander needs a bit more Attack than the Rapid Spinner. The remaining EVs are split between HP and Defense for maximum physical survivability.</p>

[Opinion]

<p>Donphan has the advantage over Claydol, Starmie (removed comma) and other Rapid Spinners of actually being able to hurt the number one Rapid Spinner threat, Dusclops. However, it has serious problems with a lack of a real recovery move, and the fact that it's hurt by the Spikes that it's coming in to spin. With how popular Substitute Skarmory has become, Donphan is a rather sad elephant when it's unable to spin vs. the flying tin can on Netbattle. It makes an excellent Dragon Dance Tyranitar counter, but has some troubles with TyraniBoah.</p>

[Counters]

<p>Donphan dies to anything special. Anything. Probably even another Donphan with Hidden Power Grass. It would not be surprising. The trick is just to get them in without dying to Donphan's massive Attack. With that in mind, bulky Water-types and Celebi make solid counters to the defensive set, but the Choice Bander do can serious damage to almost all of them. Skarmory and Flygon make good counters to the Choice Bander, and prediction in general will usually work.</p>
 
Isn't the glitch sorted on the latest Netbattle? If it is remove the sentence about it from Opinion IMO.
 
Toxic can be used. It's helpless against Gengar, but it wears down Waters and Dusclops. Many of them don't have Rest, or if they do, forcing them to Rest is generally better than doing damage with Earthquake (it only takes one Toxic to make them Rest eventually, but much more Earthquakes to do so, especially considering Leftovers).

Speaking of Toxic, that is really one of Donphan's mortal enemies, and one of its other disadvantages compared to Starmie (Natural Cure). Toxic Skarmory has no trouble with Donphan at all. Hell, it usually doesn't even have enough Atk to 2HKO Blissey, so she could stall him out with it as well (but she wins with Ice Beam too).
 
maybe I'm weird but I'd consider Hidden Power Ghost on CB Donphan to OHKO Gengar and still do some damage to Celebi; since Gengar is faster 2HKOing it doesn't really cut it when it can Ice Punch your face in.

I guess. I mean, Gengar is pretty easy to wear down, and HP Rock is already doing up to 77% to it. At the same same I somewhat agree since you'll be able to hit Dusclops and Gengar without having to figure out which move to use, so I think I'll slash it in. It's not really going to much to Celebi though, since it can EV itself to only be 3HKOed, and it can hit it pretty hard with HP Grass or even Psychic, and of course, it can Recover off the damage.

Isn't the glitch sorted on the latest Netbattle? If it is remove the sentence about it from Opinion IMO.

I'm not sure of this, but I don't think it was. Correct me if I'm wrong though and I'll remove it.

Toxic can be used. It's helpless against Gengar, but it wears down Waters and Dusclops. Many of them don't have Rest, or if they do, forcing them to Rest is generally better than doing damage with Earthquake (it only takes one Toxic to make them Rest eventually, but much more Earthquakes to do so, especially considering Leftovers).

Speaking of Toxic, that is really one of Donphan's mortal enemies, and one of its other disadvantages compared to Starmie (Natural Cure). Toxic Skarmory has no trouble with Donphan at all. Hell, it usually doesn't even have enough Atk to 2HKO Blissey, so she could stall him out with it as well (but she wins with Ice Beam too).

This I'm leaning towards Other Options or mentioning it in the set comments. Toxic means that it either forgoes Rapid Spin or Rest, both of which Donphan usually likes to have. I've never tried it but I'm sure it has its uses, but I don't know if it's really worth it.

I added a bit in the Opinion section about Toxic messing up Donphan as well. I kind of want to change TyraniBoah back to just Boah, since it seems kind of redundant when DDTar was mentioned a few words earlier.
 
<p>This set is useful for four big reasons. The first is that as long as your opponent has Dusclops, Gengar, or some other Ghost alive, you won't be able to Rapid Spin. The Choice Band allows Donphan to 2HKO Dusclops with Earthquake and 2HKO Gengar with Rock Slide. The second is that Donphan has a horrible typing, as far as special resistances go, and matches it with an equally bad Special Defense. For this reason, Donphan has to either kill whatever special attacker is coming in with one hit, or switch out. Choice Band perfectly suits this sort of hit-and-run style of play. The third reason is that Donphan has a massive Attack stat. The fourth is sheer surprise. Donphan OHKOes Celebi with Hidden Power Bug, for instance, and nearly 2HKOes Suicune (it does 2HKO all other Waters) with Earthquake. Hidden Power Ghost can be used over Hidden Power Bug to knock out Gengar in one hit and still do some damage to Celebi.</p>
I just felt that this was needed to finish off the sentence.
 
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