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RSE In-Game Tiers
- Thread starter Fireburn
- Start date
I want to make a case for Abra. Evolving it to just Kadabra (not Alakazam) makes one of the most potent attackers you can get until your starter pokemon is at its final evolution.
Catching it and evolving it is a minor bit of a pain, but its special attack and speed is through the roof, compared to Ralts who doesn't get a decent stat all the way until it evolves into Gardevoir.
Catching it and evolving it is a minor bit of a pain, but its special attack and speed is through the roof, compared to Ralts who doesn't get a decent stat all the way until it evolves into Gardevoir.
If you're going to put Sapphire Zangoose in mid/low tier, then you should also put Mewtwo in high/mid tier, since it has the same availability and is better than Zangoose. What I'm trying to say is that Zangoose should simply be not tiered for games where it doesn't appear. The only time when you'd tier something separately for different games is when a Pokemon is available in both games, but significantly better in one. For example, in HG/SS, Caterpie is available in both, but it's available from the start in HG, whereas in SS it comes after Goldenrod.
Sapphire and Emerald Zangoose don't exist if you don't allow for trading. Kikuichimonji, I feel, is right in that when considering the Pokemon that only appear in a certain game, the others should simply ignore that Pokemon.
Probably, the best way to do this would be to mark in parenthesis after the Pokemon name "Ruby/Sapphire/Emerald only" as applicable.
Examples-
Zangoose (Ruby Only)- Blah blah
Solrock (Ruby/Emerald Only) Blah
Lunatone (Sapphire Only) Blah blah
It is, in my opinion, the best way to go about it since they are pretty much only available to one version or another, and I would not consider trades a viable "easyget" method of obtaining the pokemon in question. Perhaps in Diamond or Heart Gold, but not R/S/E.
Probably, the best way to do this would be to mark in parenthesis after the Pokemon name "Ruby/Sapphire/Emerald only" as applicable.
Examples-
Zangoose (Ruby Only)- Blah blah
Solrock (Ruby/Emerald Only) Blah
Lunatone (Sapphire Only) Blah blah
It is, in my opinion, the best way to go about it since they are pretty much only available to one version or another, and I would not consider trades a viable "easyget" method of obtaining the pokemon in question. Perhaps in Diamond or Heart Gold, but not R/S/E.
Alright, you got me on the outclassed by seviper. And maybe he is a little slow, both in speed and exp. So mid seems like a good spot, because those really are his few faults.
Trace Gardevoir is a BITCH to catch. If Slowflake can get his combusken to level 20 searching, and I can get mine to 19, then you can tell. Really good thing to have though. Should stay in High.
Heracross gets THESE good moves by level up.
Brick Break (You got me here)
EndoRev (Well, OK...)
Megahorn (Level 53? MAYBE it'll hit Steven's Claydol in Emerald. Maybe.)
Yeah. Hera doesn't get that much, it DOES have to resort to (Checks TMs) er... Earthquake and Rock Tomb.
Trace Gardevoir is a BITCH to catch. If Slowflake can get his combusken to level 20 searching, and I can get mine to 19, then you can tell. Really good thing to have though. Should stay in High.
Heracross gets THESE good moves by level up.
Brick Break (You got me here)
EndoRev (Well, OK...)
Megahorn (Level 53? MAYBE it'll hit Steven's Claydol in Emerald. Maybe.)
Yeah. Hera doesn't get that much, it DOES have to resort to (Checks TMs) er... Earthquake and Rock Tomb.
Is the bonus disk Jirachi considered a trade for this? Because you can get it as soon as you get the Dex and it comes with Wish and Confusion at level 5.
Unless you level it up past level 10 before beating Brawly, which causes an obedience problem.
Unless you level it up past level 10 before beating Brawly, which causes an obedience problem.
Lotad's natural Grass movepool consists of Absorb at L7 and Mega Drain at L42 for an unevolved Lotad, which is hardly practical at all in-game. Realistically it needs the Giga Drain TM to do any meaningful Grass damage in-game. I wouldn't consider High unreasonable for Lotad in spite of this (not really much competition for Giga Drain, Ludicolo's usable without it), but your reasoning is flawed here
In addition, I think the lateness of Water Stone availablility should be mentioned. It's stuck in the Lombre stage until after you beat gym 7, which hurts.
Already mentioned by other people, but Heracross's movepool basically consists of Brick Break and... maybe Endure+Reversal if you're willing to gamble. Between this and the lateness, I can't really see Hera being above Middle.
Poochyena doesn't get Dark STAB until L13, and even then it runs off its low Special Attack so it's not terribly damaging anyways. I disagree that it's useful early game as well; it is clearly inferior to starter/Zigzagoon/Taillow/Wingull all of whom get useful STAB moves and have better speed, inferior to Marill who gets Huge Power, inferior to the assorted Grass types who get decent STAB from Bullet Seed TM at minimum (it's not like you're going to save that for anything)... it's basically competing with Wurmple on the non-STAB tackle front.
In the long run, you're looking at a Pokemon with decent attack (90) but a barren physical movepool, low special attack (60) to run its STAB moves off and no movepool there either, below average defenses (70/70/60) and speed (70)... I'm not seeing much potential here. If you want Intimidate that badly you should Gyarados, at least that way there's a real payoff for the weak start.
I don't think TMs really help the Fighting types much. Rock Tomb is too weak to cut it long term, Earthquake is redundant with their STAB moves and desirable for plenty of other physical sweepers, and Hidden Power is a complete crapshoot in-game.
Also, you're missing some Pokemon from this list. I did not find Staryu or Chimecho on the list, and there might be others.
Three tiers is pretty low considering how many options there are. I'd suggest splitting the low tier at minimum - the number of Pokemon there is huge and there is a world of difference between something like Pikachu who is late and outclassed but otherwise passable and something like Luvdisc that is just plain horrible.
My take on the tiers:
Eh. It's only somewhat useful until Surf and Giga Drain, and it's final evolution. It really has no good movepool until later in the game. Ludicolo's GOOD, but having to wait so long... It has Alakazam syndrome. I think MID fit's it better.
It deserves a place next to these two.
Well, that's fixed now. If only it were Emerald 386, where the levels are higher and Hera is avalible immidiatly after getting surf... but that was not to be.
Unless you get HP Ice 67. *Cheers at own luck*
Well, it can put things to sleep, and a lot of stuff can't do that. Still mid.
Having used it, I can now say, with certainty, that it levels up really freaking fast, and hits as hard as all hell. I think it deserves high. (BTW, after you get it, you'll be grinding anyway, because that's the section with the gamebreaking flutes!)
I still think it deserves Mid, but that's not why I brought this up. Roselia is in the utter crap tier, and that means... that you have to scroll down to get the verdict on Gulpin. :/
Outclassing isn't factored into tiering though... even then, Grumpig is a good psychic type who is one of the best pokemon to handle Tate and Lisa, of all people (Let Xatu set up, then Psyche up.)
It's not THAT bad. 110 in both stats + the same TMS (Well, Flamethrower at least) that made Wismur high + Crunch naturally + Shedrest possibly means it isn't worth Low. (I'm starting to sound like a broken record, aren't I?)
Biberal clause: The most useful HM slaves should be Mid or high. You followed through with this on Zigzagoon and Tentacool, why not Tropius? BTW, Tropius and Tenta together get all 8 HMs.
Maybe you underestimate it a little. Ice STAB is good even if it is rare, and ingame, being part Water just means you add STAB surf into the mix. It MIGHT, just maybe, be cut out for mid on grounds that it has an unocupied niche.
Not Light Ball pika though. :P (It's still Low though, the only half decent idea is getting VT pika, which means... level 5 at the Safari Zone. FAIL.
The term is "Pokemanity". But a 4 tier system is the best way to handle things, methinks.
Oh, it at least should be Low. Hard to get? Yeah... but so is Salamence.
Now, Truant may be aweful, but when Slaking can kill in 1 turn and bail out via the Shift system, it doesn't matter so much. AT LEAST LOW.
Other than that, the system was good. But where is Chinchou? Or Clamperl?
Eh. It's only somewhat useful until Surf and Giga Drain, and it's final evolution. It really has no good movepool until later in the game. Ludicolo's GOOD, but having to wait so long... It has Alakazam syndrome. I think MID fit's it better.
It deserves a place next to these two.
Well, that's fixed now. If only it were Emerald 386, where the levels are higher and Hera is avalible immidiatly after getting surf... but that was not to be.
Unless you get HP Ice 67. *Cheers at own luck*
Well, it can put things to sleep, and a lot of stuff can't do that. Still mid.
Having used it, I can now say, with certainty, that it levels up really freaking fast, and hits as hard as all hell. I think it deserves high. (BTW, after you get it, you'll be grinding anyway, because that's the section with the gamebreaking flutes!)
I still think it deserves Mid, but that's not why I brought this up. Roselia is in the utter crap tier, and that means... that you have to scroll down to get the verdict on Gulpin. :/
Outclassing isn't factored into tiering though... even then, Grumpig is a good psychic type who is one of the best pokemon to handle Tate and Lisa, of all people (Let Xatu set up, then Psyche up.)
It's not THAT bad. 110 in both stats + the same TMS (Well, Flamethrower at least) that made Wismur high + Crunch naturally + Shedrest possibly means it isn't worth Low. (I'm starting to sound like a broken record, aren't I?)
Biberal clause: The most useful HM slaves should be Mid or high. You followed through with this on Zigzagoon and Tentacool, why not Tropius? BTW, Tropius and Tenta together get all 8 HMs.
Maybe you underestimate it a little. Ice STAB is good even if it is rare, and ingame, being part Water just means you add STAB surf into the mix. It MIGHT, just maybe, be cut out for mid on grounds that it has an unocupied niche.
Not Light Ball pika though. :P (It's still Low though, the only half decent idea is getting VT pika, which means... level 5 at the Safari Zone. FAIL.
The term is "Pokemanity". But a 4 tier system is the best way to handle things, methinks.
Oh, it at least should be Low. Hard to get? Yeah... but so is Salamence.
Now, Truant may be aweful, but when Slaking can kill in 1 turn and bail out via the Shift system, it doesn't matter so much. AT LEAST LOW.
Other than that, the system was good. But where is Chinchou? Or Clamperl?
I'm thinking that Shroomish should be moved down to Mid. It can be a very strong member of the team, but it has 3 problems that I think put it down to Mid:
1: Very poor level up movepool. Sadly, Breloom is cursed by the type based physical/special split in Gen 3, meaning that it doesn't get any grass moves to be used with its awesome base attack. That being said, its only worthwhile moves are Mach Punch (which to be fair is very good and comes at the level Shroomish evolves) and Sky Uppercut (at level 36, which is also good). Sadly, this is about as much as it learns, discounting TM competition.
2: Breloom is part of the slowest experience gaining group in the game, Fluctating. This means that you really have to work if you want Breloom to have loads of experience, and in this terms, it can be a very annoying experience hogger because of this. This is especially annoying in the fact that Shroomishes attacking stats are HORRIBLE, and so it can be a chore levelling up Shroomish to level 23, which is where it starts to get good.
3: Its unusable in many of the gyms. It can't do anything against Flannery (where Breloom will likely appear), Winona or TateLiza, and so it's forced to grab experience through other fights, which ties in to the above problem. There are some gyms which it can beat easily (Norman, Wallace, Wattson if you get it at that point) but these problems I feel are more than enough to put Shroomish down to Mid.
1: Very poor level up movepool. Sadly, Breloom is cursed by the type based physical/special split in Gen 3, meaning that it doesn't get any grass moves to be used with its awesome base attack. That being said, its only worthwhile moves are Mach Punch (which to be fair is very good and comes at the level Shroomish evolves) and Sky Uppercut (at level 36, which is also good). Sadly, this is about as much as it learns, discounting TM competition.
2: Breloom is part of the slowest experience gaining group in the game, Fluctating. This means that you really have to work if you want Breloom to have loads of experience, and in this terms, it can be a very annoying experience hogger because of this. This is especially annoying in the fact that Shroomishes attacking stats are HORRIBLE, and so it can be a chore levelling up Shroomish to level 23, which is where it starts to get good.
3: Its unusable in many of the gyms. It can't do anything against Flannery (where Breloom will likely appear), Winona or TateLiza, and so it's forced to grab experience through other fights, which ties in to the above problem. There are some gyms which it can beat easily (Norman, Wallace, Wattson if you get it at that point) but these problems I feel are more than enough to put Shroomish down to Mid.
You've got it A BIT wrong.
1: Well, Giga Drain is usable at least. Ingame, 60 base special attack is still usable for STAB. And Headbutt as well, and obviously Stun Spore (Yes, inoffensive moves are good ingame. How many times must I say this?)
2: Getting to level 23 isn't that bad, it's what comes afterwards that is. In Fluctuating, up to level 16 is easier than all but the last bit of Erratic, 16 to 36 is normal, and afterwards it gets bad.
3: You get it before Wattson easily. And beating 1/2 of the gyms post evolution is good. Not to mention it rocks against Roxanne (Remember, you use the pokemon BEFORE evolving it as well!), and is decent help for Brawly.
1: Well, Giga Drain is usable at least. Ingame, 60 base special attack is still usable for STAB. And Headbutt as well, and obviously Stun Spore (Yes, inoffensive moves are good ingame. How many times must I say this?)
2: Getting to level 23 isn't that bad, it's what comes afterwards that is. In Fluctuating, up to level 16 is easier than all but the last bit of Erratic, 16 to 36 is normal, and afterwards it gets bad.
3: You get it before Wattson easily. And beating 1/2 of the gyms post evolution is good. Not to mention it rocks against Roxanne (Remember, you use the pokemon BEFORE evolving it as well!), and is decent help for Brawly.
Pikachu can be better than manetric if you use the safari zone to get light ball.
I did a test run with a team of Sceptile/Alakazam/Camerupt/Altaria/Magnaton/Milotic.
The team did pretty well. Here's my end notes.
The second Sceptile gets Leaf Blade, it becomes a great help (Although it's weak till then). Faster than fast and hitting important mons super effectively is the key.
Alakazam is a pimp. I never used any TMs on it (Psychic/CM/Recover/Reflect), but it turned out good in the end.
Camerupt had a great movepool, and really shined in the many double battles in Emerald (Rock Slide, Earthquake, and Eruption are all natural.)
Altaria SWEPT Steven (Emerald)... at level 57. To weak my ass, Dragon Dance + Natural Cure makes for an absolute BEAST. It is hard to level up early, but since it's Erratic, that changes quickly.
Magnaton is, full stop, a finger to common sense. Yes, it resists ALL those types, and can defeat almost all of the Elite Four by firing off Thunderbolts by itself.
But MILOTIC... well...
I did an odd thing with it. I set up a breeding chain (Spinda > Psyduck > Feebas) to ensure I got a Hypnosis Feebas. I got my Trainer ID to end in 1 (6 works as well) so the lady near Lilycove gave me Wiki Berries. And I got my Modest Hypnosis Milotic.
It took a lot of setup, and came late. But once it was mine, it took MVP early on and never let go. It killed EVERYTHING the rest of my team couldn't handle easily. I would have TKOd against Wallace if not for this thing being able to take hits forever and heal everyone up to full, then sleep something for a free switch.
MID. It must be MID.
(And Swablu should be Mid as well.)
The team did pretty well. Here's my end notes.
The second Sceptile gets Leaf Blade, it becomes a great help (Although it's weak till then). Faster than fast and hitting important mons super effectively is the key.
Alakazam is a pimp. I never used any TMs on it (Psychic/CM/Recover/Reflect), but it turned out good in the end.
Camerupt had a great movepool, and really shined in the many double battles in Emerald (Rock Slide, Earthquake, and Eruption are all natural.)
Altaria SWEPT Steven (Emerald)... at level 57. To weak my ass, Dragon Dance + Natural Cure makes for an absolute BEAST. It is hard to level up early, but since it's Erratic, that changes quickly.
Magnaton is, full stop, a finger to common sense. Yes, it resists ALL those types, and can defeat almost all of the Elite Four by firing off Thunderbolts by itself.
But MILOTIC... well...
I did an odd thing with it. I set up a breeding chain (Spinda > Psyduck > Feebas) to ensure I got a Hypnosis Feebas. I got my Trainer ID to end in 1 (6 works as well) so the lady near Lilycove gave me Wiki Berries. And I got my Modest Hypnosis Milotic.
It took a lot of setup, and came late. But once it was mine, it took MVP early on and never let go. It killed EVERYTHING the rest of my team couldn't handle easily. I would have TKOd against Wallace if not for this thing being able to take hits forever and heal everyone up to full, then sleep something for a free switch.
MID. It must be MID.
(And Swablu should be Mid as well.)
BTW, people: Fluctuating is the direct opposite of Erratic. Fluctuating means "easy to level early on, hard to level later." Therefore, Fluctuating mons are easy to train to a medium level, but hard to level up after that.
can someone use an online Thesaurus, find some synonyms for “strong”, and substitute them into the descriptions where appropriate?
as you can tell I rephrased lots of it. sorry.
it would be nice if articles were proofread by the writer before people are asked to grammar check them though.
Introduction
The best Pokemon is one who is obtained at the start of the game, can OHKO enemies off the bat, and only loses 1 HP when damaged. He also learns every HM, heals himselfautomatically, and has some neat ability to top it off. Such a Pokemon doesn't exist, of course, but this means that Pokemon closer to this ideal are the best.
The goal of this in-game tier list is to recommend a select group of Pokemon for an efficient run-through of the game. Those will be put in High tier. Very inefficient Pokemon will be put in Low tier. Pokemon who are neither efficient nor inefficient – for example, Pokemon who have an initial downside but can eventually perform as well as High tiered ones – are put in Middle tier. [the intent of this sentence was confusing but by skimming the list I came up with that description]
Pokemon are graded based on five factors: availability, raw stats, movepool, typing, and matchups against major in-game battles. Availability is a measure of how easy it is to obtain the Pokemon, and it ranges from very low (gift Pokemon) to very high (common “tall grass” Pokemon). It also takes into account the part of the game at which you are able to get the Pokemon. For example, a Pokemon could be extremely good, but he is worthless if you get him after every major battle. Raw stats affect the Pokemon's ability to KO others and to take hits in-game. Obviously, you want Pokemon with great stats, since that means they can easily KO many other Pokemon without fainting.
A Pokemon’s movepool is the variety of attacks the Pokemon learns. Does he need a lot of TMs to have a good moveset? Can he learn a lot of HMs to help you navigate in the overworld? Does he learn powerful attacks of his own type? TMs are available but can only be used once. Giving items like Super Potions is fine because you can buy them and you have almost infinite money in the game. Giving a Pokemon a TM like the Dig TM in RBY cannot simply be assumed, as there is lots of competition for that TM. The less competition there is for a TM, the more likely it is that a Pokemoncan get said TM. Pokemon with great movepools do not present much competition for TMs, allowing them to be used on other Pokemon. (However, a buyable TM can always be assumed.)
Typing and matchups go hand in hand. The optimal typing gives a Pokemon STAB on useful attack types while leaving it with few or noweaknesses. If a Pokemon is a dual type, his typing should complement it offensively and defensively. Typing also determines the major battles in which a Pokemon will be useful. (Major battles can range from Gym Leaders battles to Rival battles.) Therefore, it is useful to use Pokemon with good type combinations that give them an advantage in most of the game's major battles.
Don't confuse an efficient run with a speed run. Speed runs are often segmented and recorded while manipulating luck through resets; these aim for the absolute fastest on-screen time, but the real time spent on them is much, much more. If you want to play through the game in a relatively low time frame, then you’re looking for an efficient run.
A team is actually the most efficient (in terms of utility per team member) if it only consists of a single member; however, this tier list will assume a team size of around three Pokemon. Otherwise, the list would be extremely centralized around starters and early-game Pokemon while everything else would be too crappy to use.
TIERS [man this font looks ugly]
-High- Pokemon highly recommended for use.
Treecko- Very fast; a wide movepool coupled with decent offenses means it can take on most Pokemon.
Torchic- Very strong with decent Speed; dual STAB upon evolution offer great coverage without need for a lot of TMs.
Mudkip- Learns a lot of HMs, is bulky, and is strong. His dual STAB combo offers great coverage when coupled with Blizzard, which is an easily purchased TM.
Lotad- Dual STABs have great coverage without need for TMs, while his typing doesn’t leave him with many weaknesses. It’s easy to get as well.
Taillow- Reliable STABs, great early movepool, and extremely fast.
Ralts- Very strong, moderately fast, and pretty good movepool. Psychic + Thunderbolt is a good attacking combo to use, especially since Ralts gets Calm Mind as a level up move.
Whismur- Good attacking stats and can utilize lots of easily replaceable TMs such as Fire Blast, Blizzard, and Thunder for wide type coverage and power.
Electrike- Fast and strong; Bite + Thunderbolt offers great neutral coverage.
Numel- Good dual STAB combo; makes a great Torchic replacement.
Zigzagoon- Comes early, has a neat ability in Pickup, and is a great HM slave.
Kyogre- Comes late at a high level, but is incredibly strong and can sweep the Elite Four pretty much by itself with a moveset of Calm Mind/Ice Beam/Hydro Pump/Thunder (it comes with three of those moves).
Groudon- Comes late at a high level, but is incredibly strong and sweeps easily with Bulk Up + STAB Earthquake. Drought also removes its Water weakness and it has Fire Blast to crush Grass/Ice Pokemon.
Rayquaza- Hard to catch, but comes at a very high level and is extremely strong. Needs no TMs.
Wingull- He has decent power, and Water/Flying is a good STAB combo. He learns Shock Wave for coverage but is slow.
Shroomish- Slow, but Breloom is very strong and has a good movepool.
Staryu- Very fast and strong with a great movepool. It comes a bit late, but training it is well worth it.
Zangoose- Decent stats with a wide movepool; Swords Dance at level 10 is awesome.
Tropius- Rare with mediocre stats, but he’s the best dang HM slave in the game.
Tentacool- Good stats, but has a shallow level up movepool. He’s a great HM slave though. Tentacool and Tropius learn all of the game's HMs between each other.
Chinchou- Lanturn has passable stats and Water/Electric is an awesome STAB combo.
Abra- Evolving him is somewhat difficult, but Alakazam's sheer strength and power makes it worth it.
-Mid- Pokemon that fall short in some of the characteristics but are still decent.
Magikarp- A pain to train early on and it doesn’t get a good STAB to use with its high Attack, but Gyarados gets Dragon Dance and has great stats.
Heracross- Comes late but is strong and has a good movepool.
Geodude- Useful early game, but has too many weaknesses and is slow.
Machop- Needs TMs for move variety but he is very strong.
Makuhita- Same as Machop except you can get him sooner.
Magnemite- Slow with a shallow movepool, but has good typing. Magneton is pretty strong.
Oddish- No good STAB until Petal Dance and Breloom is much better, but there aren't a lot of good Grass-types in this game.
Meditite- Medicham is very strong, and his only drawback is that he comes late.
Carvanha- Very strong but frail as crap and comes somewhat late.
Zangoose- Decent stats with a wide movepool; Swords Dance at level 10 is awesome. [Zangoose is in two tiers]
Vulpix- Comes late, but Flamethrower at only level 29 is awesome and Ninetales is pretty strong. Aside from Flamethrower, its movepool is really bad.
Doduo- Taillow comes first, but Dodrio is pretty good too with reliable STABs.
Barboach- Not too hard to get; decent replacement for Swampert.
Anorith- Pretty strong and can take a few hits, but is slow.
Psyduck- Decent stats; decent Water-type if you didn’t choose Mudkip.
Spoink- He’s slow and outclassed offensively by Gardevoir, but he’s not a bad Pokemon by any means.
Spheal- He comes late, but Water/Ice is a good STAB combo and Walrein has sweet stats.
Regice- Difficult to get but it is very bulky and gets a nice BoltBeam combo. It can take on Drake pretty much by itself.
Feebas- Milotic is freaking awesome but finding Feebas is difficult and evolving him is tedious.
Slakoth- Truant is horrible, but Slaking has excellent stats and he can always employ a hit and run strategy.
-Low- Either is complete crap or is too hard to get.
Poochyena- Useful early game but is too weak later on.
Rhyhorn- Comes late, has too many weaknesses, and is slow.
Wurmple- Both of his evolutions suck but are a little useful early game.
Seedot- Very bad level-up movepool.
Zubat- Pain to train and is outclassed offensively by Swellow.
Sableye- Mediocre stats with a mediocre movepool. It owns Brawly though.
Gulpin- He’s slow and Poison is a bad attacking type.
Wailmer- He’s slow, comes late, and there are much better options.
Slugma- Outclassed by Numel; Magcargo has too many weaknesses.
Torkoal- Good Defense, but he is slow and he has a bad movepool.
Grimer- Pretty much the same as Gulpin.
Koffing- Same as Grimer.
Skarmory- Good typing but poor offensive ability.
Trapinch- Flygon is good but he’s a pain to train and his level-up movepool is sparse.
Cacnea- Powerful, but he’s slow and frail to boot.
Swablu- Too weak.
Seviper- Decently powerful, but he’s slow and needs TMs for a good moveset; Poison STAB is weak.
Bagon- Salamence is freaking awesome but he comes way too late.
Absol- No good STAB and comes kinda late.
Jirachi- Excellent Pokemon but is too hard to get.
Regirock- Too hard to get; a lot of weaknesses.
Registeel- Weak offenses; too hard to get.
Relicanth- Water/Rock is good dual STAB, but he’s slow, has a lot of weaknesses, and comes late.
Corphish- Horrible level up movepool; just use Sharpedo.
Snorunt- Comes too late and he’s rare. He’s really just a worse Spheal.
Solrock- Mediocre stats; level-up moves are too weak.
Lunatone- Learns Psychic and Hypnosis by level up, but its not enough to make it that much better than Solrock.
Beldum- Metagross is beastly but it comes too late.
Latias- Strong but she comes too late. It isn’t worth it to deal with runners.
Latios- Same as Latias.
Lileep- Weak offenses.
Duskull- Weak offenses.
Shuppet- Shallow movepool; comes late.
Natu- Decent offenses but comes late and is outclassed by Gardevoir/Alakazam.
Pikachu- Movepool is mediocre and he is outclassed by Manectric offensively. (Unless you get a Light Ball one, but even so, Pikachu will be KOed by a light breeze.)
Castform- Good movepool but horrible stats.
Aron- Decently strong but he’s slow and Steel/Rock is horrid defensive typing in-game where Water/Ground/Fighting moves are all pretty common, especially when fighting the Elite Four.
Pinsir- Not a bad Pokemon, but there's no reason to use him over Heracross who gets STAB on his Fighting moves and has a similar stat build.
-EPIC FAIL- Absolute insults to humanity.
Chimecho- His stats and movepool both suck and he is hard to find.
Wobbuffet- Relying on Counter/Mirror Coat to do damage is a bad idea.
Luvdisc- >_<
Mawile- Horrible Pokemon with a horrible movepool.
Plusle- Outclassed completely by Manectric.
Minun- See Plusle.
Voltorb- Very fast but weak.
Volbeat- Tail Glow is ok but it has crappy stats and a crappy movepool.
Illumise- See Volbeat.
Roselia- Bad stats and movepool.
Sandshrew- Slow and no good level-up moves.
Spinda- Horrible stats.
Surskit- Average stats with a mediocre movepool.
Nincada- [Ninjask + Shedinja]- Mediocre movepool and very frail; Shedinja can’t take a hit at all.
Goldeen- There are better Water-types out there.
Marill- No good STAB.
Nosepass- Horrible attacking power.
Skitty- Bad stats.
Clamperl- Has pretty much no level up movepool, terrible stats, and can't evolve until after you beat the Elite Four.
NOTES
Rayquaza is High in Emerald and low in Ruby/Sapphire
Groudon and Kyogre are Low in Emerald
Seviper, Lotad, Shuppet, Kyogre, Latias, and Lunatone are not in Ruby.
Zangoose, Seedot, Duskull, Groudon, Latios, and Solrock are not in Sapphire.
Zangoose, Roselia, Surskit, Meditite, and Lunatone are not in Emerald.
as you can tell I rephrased lots of it. sorry.
it would be nice if articles were proofread by the writer before people are asked to grammar check them though.
IBOEDIT said:
Introduction
The best Pokemon is one who is obtained at the start of the game, can OHKO enemies off the bat, and only loses 1 HP when damaged. He also learns every HM, heals himselfautomatically, and has some neat ability to top it off. Such a Pokemon doesn't exist, of course, but this means that Pokemon closer to this ideal are the best.
The goal of this in-game tier list is to recommend a select group of Pokemon for an efficient run-through of the game. Those will be put in High tier. Very inefficient Pokemon will be put in Low tier. Pokemon who are neither efficient nor inefficient – for example, Pokemon who have an initial downside but can eventually perform as well as High tiered ones – are put in Middle tier. [the intent of this sentence was confusing but by skimming the list I came up with that description]
Pokemon are graded based on five factors: availability, raw stats, movepool, typing, and matchups against major in-game battles. Availability is a measure of how easy it is to obtain the Pokemon, and it ranges from very low (gift Pokemon) to very high (common “tall grass” Pokemon). It also takes into account the part of the game at which you are able to get the Pokemon. For example, a Pokemon could be extremely good, but he is worthless if you get him after every major battle. Raw stats affect the Pokemon's ability to KO others and to take hits in-game. Obviously, you want Pokemon with great stats, since that means they can easily KO many other Pokemon without fainting.
A Pokemon’s movepool is the variety of attacks the Pokemon learns. Does he need a lot of TMs to have a good moveset? Can he learn a lot of HMs to help you navigate in the overworld? Does he learn powerful attacks of his own type? TMs are available but can only be used once. Giving items like Super Potions is fine because you can buy them and you have almost infinite money in the game. Giving a Pokemon a TM like the Dig TM in RBY cannot simply be assumed, as there is lots of competition for that TM. The less competition there is for a TM, the more likely it is that a Pokemoncan get said TM. Pokemon with great movepools do not present much competition for TMs, allowing them to be used on other Pokemon. (However, a buyable TM can always be assumed.)
Typing and matchups go hand in hand. The optimal typing gives a Pokemon STAB on useful attack types while leaving it with few or noweaknesses. If a Pokemon is a dual type, his typing should complement it offensively and defensively. Typing also determines the major battles in which a Pokemon will be useful. (Major battles can range from Gym Leaders battles to Rival battles.) Therefore, it is useful to use Pokemon with good type combinations that give them an advantage in most of the game's major battles.
Don't confuse an efficient run with a speed run. Speed runs are often segmented and recorded while manipulating luck through resets; these aim for the absolute fastest on-screen time, but the real time spent on them is much, much more. If you want to play through the game in a relatively low time frame, then you’re looking for an efficient run.
A team is actually the most efficient (in terms of utility per team member) if it only consists of a single member; however, this tier list will assume a team size of around three Pokemon. Otherwise, the list would be extremely centralized around starters and early-game Pokemon while everything else would be too crappy to use.
TIERS [man this font looks ugly]
-High- Pokemon highly recommended for use.
Treecko- Very fast; a wide movepool coupled with decent offenses means it can take on most Pokemon.
Torchic- Very strong with decent Speed; dual STAB upon evolution offer great coverage without need for a lot of TMs.
Mudkip- Learns a lot of HMs, is bulky, and is strong. His dual STAB combo offers great coverage when coupled with Blizzard, which is an easily purchased TM.
Lotad- Dual STABs have great coverage without need for TMs, while his typing doesn’t leave him with many weaknesses. It’s easy to get as well.
Taillow- Reliable STABs, great early movepool, and extremely fast.
Ralts- Very strong, moderately fast, and pretty good movepool. Psychic + Thunderbolt is a good attacking combo to use, especially since Ralts gets Calm Mind as a level up move.
Whismur- Good attacking stats and can utilize lots of easily replaceable TMs such as Fire Blast, Blizzard, and Thunder for wide type coverage and power.
Electrike- Fast and strong; Bite + Thunderbolt offers great neutral coverage.
Numel- Good dual STAB combo; makes a great Torchic replacement.
Zigzagoon- Comes early, has a neat ability in Pickup, and is a great HM slave.
Kyogre- Comes late at a high level, but is incredibly strong and can sweep the Elite Four pretty much by itself with a moveset of Calm Mind/Ice Beam/Hydro Pump/Thunder (it comes with three of those moves).
Groudon- Comes late at a high level, but is incredibly strong and sweeps easily with Bulk Up + STAB Earthquake. Drought also removes its Water weakness and it has Fire Blast to crush Grass/Ice Pokemon.
Rayquaza- Hard to catch, but comes at a very high level and is extremely strong. Needs no TMs.
Wingull- He has decent power, and Water/Flying is a good STAB combo. He learns Shock Wave for coverage but is slow.
Shroomish- Slow, but Breloom is very strong and has a good movepool.
Staryu- Very fast and strong with a great movepool. It comes a bit late, but training it is well worth it.
Zangoose- Decent stats with a wide movepool; Swords Dance at level 10 is awesome.
Tropius- Rare with mediocre stats, but he’s the best dang HM slave in the game.
Tentacool- Good stats, but has a shallow level up movepool. He’s a great HM slave though. Tentacool and Tropius learn all of the game's HMs between each other.
Chinchou- Lanturn has passable stats and Water/Electric is an awesome STAB combo.
Abra- Evolving him is somewhat difficult, but Alakazam's sheer strength and power makes it worth it.
-Mid- Pokemon that fall short in some of the characteristics but are still decent.
Magikarp- A pain to train early on and it doesn’t get a good STAB to use with its high Attack, but Gyarados gets Dragon Dance and has great stats.
Heracross- Comes late but is strong and has a good movepool.
Geodude- Useful early game, but has too many weaknesses and is slow.
Machop- Needs TMs for move variety but he is very strong.
Makuhita- Same as Machop except you can get him sooner.
Magnemite- Slow with a shallow movepool, but has good typing. Magneton is pretty strong.
Oddish- No good STAB until Petal Dance and Breloom is much better, but there aren't a lot of good Grass-types in this game.
Meditite- Medicham is very strong, and his only drawback is that he comes late.
Carvanha- Very strong but frail as crap and comes somewhat late.
Zangoose- Decent stats with a wide movepool; Swords Dance at level 10 is awesome. [Zangoose is in two tiers]
Vulpix- Comes late, but Flamethrower at only level 29 is awesome and Ninetales is pretty strong. Aside from Flamethrower, its movepool is really bad.
Doduo- Taillow comes first, but Dodrio is pretty good too with reliable STABs.
Barboach- Not too hard to get; decent replacement for Swampert.
Anorith- Pretty strong and can take a few hits, but is slow.
Psyduck- Decent stats; decent Water-type if you didn’t choose Mudkip.
Spoink- He’s slow and outclassed offensively by Gardevoir, but he’s not a bad Pokemon by any means.
Spheal- He comes late, but Water/Ice is a good STAB combo and Walrein has sweet stats.
Regice- Difficult to get but it is very bulky and gets a nice BoltBeam combo. It can take on Drake pretty much by itself.
Feebas- Milotic is freaking awesome but finding Feebas is difficult and evolving him is tedious.
Slakoth- Truant is horrible, but Slaking has excellent stats and he can always employ a hit and run strategy.
-Low- Either is complete crap or is too hard to get.
Poochyena- Useful early game but is too weak later on.
Rhyhorn- Comes late, has too many weaknesses, and is slow.
Wurmple- Both of his evolutions suck but are a little useful early game.
Seedot- Very bad level-up movepool.
Zubat- Pain to train and is outclassed offensively by Swellow.
Sableye- Mediocre stats with a mediocre movepool. It owns Brawly though.
Gulpin- He’s slow and Poison is a bad attacking type.
Wailmer- He’s slow, comes late, and there are much better options.
Slugma- Outclassed by Numel; Magcargo has too many weaknesses.
Torkoal- Good Defense, but he is slow and he has a bad movepool.
Grimer- Pretty much the same as Gulpin.
Koffing- Same as Grimer.
Skarmory- Good typing but poor offensive ability.
Trapinch- Flygon is good but he’s a pain to train and his level-up movepool is sparse.
Cacnea- Powerful, but he’s slow and frail to boot.
Swablu- Too weak.
Seviper- Decently powerful, but he’s slow and needs TMs for a good moveset; Poison STAB is weak.
Bagon- Salamence is freaking awesome but he comes way too late.
Absol- No good STAB and comes kinda late.
Jirachi- Excellent Pokemon but is too hard to get.
Regirock- Too hard to get; a lot of weaknesses.
Registeel- Weak offenses; too hard to get.
Relicanth- Water/Rock is good dual STAB, but he’s slow, has a lot of weaknesses, and comes late.
Corphish- Horrible level up movepool; just use Sharpedo.
Snorunt- Comes too late and he’s rare. He’s really just a worse Spheal.
Solrock- Mediocre stats; level-up moves are too weak.
Lunatone- Learns Psychic and Hypnosis by level up, but its not enough to make it that much better than Solrock.
Beldum- Metagross is beastly but it comes too late.
Latias- Strong but she comes too late. It isn’t worth it to deal with runners.
Latios- Same as Latias.
Lileep- Weak offenses.
Duskull- Weak offenses.
Shuppet- Shallow movepool; comes late.
Natu- Decent offenses but comes late and is outclassed by Gardevoir/Alakazam.
Pikachu- Movepool is mediocre and he is outclassed by Manectric offensively. (Unless you get a Light Ball one, but even so, Pikachu will be KOed by a light breeze.)
Castform- Good movepool but horrible stats.
Aron- Decently strong but he’s slow and Steel/Rock is horrid defensive typing in-game where Water/Ground/Fighting moves are all pretty common, especially when fighting the Elite Four.
Pinsir- Not a bad Pokemon, but there's no reason to use him over Heracross who gets STAB on his Fighting moves and has a similar stat build.
-EPIC FAIL- Absolute insults to humanity.
Chimecho- His stats and movepool both suck and he is hard to find.
Wobbuffet- Relying on Counter/Mirror Coat to do damage is a bad idea.
Luvdisc- >_<
Mawile- Horrible Pokemon with a horrible movepool.
Plusle- Outclassed completely by Manectric.
Minun- See Plusle.
Voltorb- Very fast but weak.
Volbeat- Tail Glow is ok but it has crappy stats and a crappy movepool.
Illumise- See Volbeat.
Roselia- Bad stats and movepool.
Sandshrew- Slow and no good level-up moves.
Spinda- Horrible stats.
Surskit- Average stats with a mediocre movepool.
Nincada- [Ninjask + Shedinja]- Mediocre movepool and very frail; Shedinja can’t take a hit at all.
Goldeen- There are better Water-types out there.
Marill- No good STAB.
Nosepass- Horrible attacking power.
Skitty- Bad stats.
Clamperl- Has pretty much no level up movepool, terrible stats, and can't evolve until after you beat the Elite Four.
NOTES
Rayquaza is High in Emerald and low in Ruby/Sapphire
Groudon and Kyogre are Low in Emerald
Seviper, Lotad, Shuppet, Kyogre, Latias, and Lunatone are not in Ruby.
Zangoose, Seedot, Duskull, Groudon, Latios, and Solrock are not in Sapphire.
Zangoose, Roselia, Surskit, Meditite, and Lunatone are not in Emerald.
you're missing horsea from the list, but IMO it comes so incredibly late, has a movepool completely outclassed by other water types, has no dragon STAB outside of breeding, and needs an item thats found only 5% of the time on it to evolve, makes it one of the lowest of the low pokemon to use.
sure it has dragondance, but has no STAB to abuse it with (and the only decent options to use it with are return/frustration and bodyslam, which require tutors) honestly the only thing running for it is either raindance, or double team abuse like how Juan uses it in emerald. a pretty bad poke, most definitely one of the lowest of the low.
sure it has dragondance, but has no STAB to abuse it with (and the only decent options to use it with are return/frustration and bodyslam, which require tutors) honestly the only thing running for it is either raindance, or double team abuse like how Juan uses it in emerald. a pretty bad poke, most definitely one of the lowest of the low.
Paradox, it isn't THAT hard. You can get those Dragon Scales a lot easier from Bagons, they're fairly common in the depths of Meteor Falls. It is a powerful pokemon even without Dragonbreath, because of Agility and Surf/Ice Beam (Hydro Pump can be in the last slot as a panic button, Twister if you like flinching.), and it can sweep most of the E4 by itself.
I understand that one gp check has apparently been carried out, but I'm not too sure if this isn't under copyediting yet. This is kinda of a bump but I'll like to make a case for Marill.
Firstly, I think that Marill should be bumped one or two tiers. Despite it being unable to get good STAB to match it's monstrous attack with huge power, it is available quite early, just after Petalburg City. Having used it once or twice, I found it pretty bulky and can hit reasonably hard, even with tackle, for early-game standards.
Once you get rollout at level 15, things start to get much easier. Marill can solo some gyms with just rollout alone (since gym leaders often leave their stronger pokemon to the end). Water Gun also helps against Roxanne and the numerous geodudes. Also, Marill evolves very early, at level 18. At that point of time, Azumarill's stats are extremely good. Double-edge is also learnt at a reasonably early level for a 120 power attack, at level 34. Azumarill won't mind the recoil too much due to it's bulk and high HP. To top it all off, Azumarill learns 5 out of 8 HMs, which is always helpful.
Marill definitely deserves more, at least in low if not mid. Compare it to Gyarados, who doesn't get good STAB options to use its high attack as well. Except Marill comes really early, has a slightly better level up learnset, has more bulk and isn't a huge pain to train initially. The only main advantages I see of using Gyarados over Azumarill is the ground immune (ground attacks aren't common in-game though) and higher speed. While Gyarados has access to Dragon Dance, it comes very late at level 50.
TL;DR: While Marill may be largely outclassed by Mudkip, Marill can hold its own against other waters higher up the tier list. Definitely better than epic-fail imo. Of course all this is assuming huge power marill, I do agree that thick fat marill is epic fail. :D
Firstly, I think that Marill should be bumped one or two tiers. Despite it being unable to get good STAB to match it's monstrous attack with huge power, it is available quite early, just after Petalburg City. Having used it once or twice, I found it pretty bulky and can hit reasonably hard, even with tackle, for early-game standards.
Once you get rollout at level 15, things start to get much easier. Marill can solo some gyms with just rollout alone (since gym leaders often leave their stronger pokemon to the end). Water Gun also helps against Roxanne and the numerous geodudes. Also, Marill evolves very early, at level 18. At that point of time, Azumarill's stats are extremely good. Double-edge is also learnt at a reasonably early level for a 120 power attack, at level 34. Azumarill won't mind the recoil too much due to it's bulk and high HP. To top it all off, Azumarill learns 5 out of 8 HMs, which is always helpful.
Marill definitely deserves more, at least in low if not mid. Compare it to Gyarados, who doesn't get good STAB options to use its high attack as well. Except Marill comes really early, has a slightly better level up learnset, has more bulk and isn't a huge pain to train initially. The only main advantages I see of using Gyarados over Azumarill is the ground immune (ground attacks aren't common in-game though) and higher speed. While Gyarados has access to Dragon Dance, it comes very late at level 50.
TL;DR: While Marill may be largely outclassed by Mudkip, Marill can hold its own against other waters higher up the tier list. Definitely better than epic-fail imo. Of course all this is assuming huge power marill, I do agree that thick fat marill is epic fail. :D
I strongly disagree with Lotad for High tier in R/S. It loses a large amount of power after level 20 and can't evolve again until after Dive when your team is at about level 42. Its only real use is as an HM whore for the Water HMs.
I support Whismur to mid tier. While it is true that its movepool is ridiculous it evolves very late (on par with Aron), lacks a lot of power until it reaches Exploud and still manages to be outclassed by a lot out of evolution. I support a tiering move down.
I also support moving Numel down. It has major issues with speed and is weak to a lot of common types, a problem when it can't outspeed them. Its offensive stats also tend to be rather underwhelming.
I support Whismur to mid tier. While it is true that its movepool is ridiculous it evolves very late (on par with Aron), lacks a lot of power until it reaches Exploud and still manages to be outclassed by a lot out of evolution. I support a tiering move down.
I also support moving Numel down. It has major issues with speed and is weak to a lot of common types, a problem when it can't outspeed them. Its offensive stats also tend to be rather underwhelming.
Phanpy is missing from the list...
Phanpy does come kinda late with a shallow movepool, and a low Speed stat doesn't help its case much. However, when you catch it, you can evolve it ALMOST IMMEDIATELY, transforming it into a monster ready to trample its opponents to death (in my Ruby version, he took out almost the entire Lilycove hideout SINGLE-HANDEDLY). He's also physically bulky, ensuring that he won't go down easily. While I would personally love to see Phanpy in Mid tier, I can see how his weaknesses would land him in Low tier.
I also support moving Lotad down a tier. While he's an awesome partner early on (especially against Roxanne), he loses value as the game goes on, mainly due to the lack of good STAB moves. When you FINALLY get the Water Stone, Lombre will mainly be dead weight on your team except as an HM slave. Besides, more reasonable choices like Spheal will have filled the void by then. Others have given their reasons why to bump down Lotad, and I'm simply stating mine.
Phanpy does come kinda late with a shallow movepool, and a low Speed stat doesn't help its case much. However, when you catch it, you can evolve it ALMOST IMMEDIATELY, transforming it into a monster ready to trample its opponents to death (in my Ruby version, he took out almost the entire Lilycove hideout SINGLE-HANDEDLY). He's also physically bulky, ensuring that he won't go down easily. While I would personally love to see Phanpy in Mid tier, I can see how his weaknesses would land him in Low tier.
I also support moving Lotad down a tier. While he's an awesome partner early on (especially against Roxanne), he loses value as the game goes on, mainly due to the lack of good STAB moves. When you FINALLY get the Water Stone, Lombre will mainly be dead weight on your team except as an HM slave. Besides, more reasonable choices like Spheal will have filled the void by then. Others have given their reasons why to bump down Lotad, and I'm simply stating mine.