Resource RU Old Gens Hub

MrAldo

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Inspired by dodmen UU Old Gens Hub


RU Old Gens Hub

oldgens_hub.png

Thanks King Wynaut
Welcome to the RU Old Gens Hub. Given that RU is a pretty young tier compared to others like UU and NU (RU was introduced on the 5th generation of Pokemon for those that dont know and curious) so this thread will contain resources for - Black and White RU. and ORAS RU. This thread will serve as a place to discuss your favorite things about each of these respective generations. Different posts will contain viability rankings, sample teams, list of mechanics if there is any drastical ones compared to the current ones in SM and stuff like that. Feel free to discuss your favorite aspects of these metagames, underrated threats, teams you wanna share, if you wanna challenge somebody or whatever. Hoping to give this metagames some exposure.

Basic forum etiquettes rules still apply.
 
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MrAldo

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ORAS RU


Generation 6 specific mechanics:
  • Burn damage deals 12% damage unlike in SM which has been reduced to 6%
  • Hidden Powers are IV dependant unlike in SM where you can have perfect IVs with any hidden power.
  • Crit chance ratio is of 6.25% unlike in SM where it has been reduced to around 4.16%
  • Paralysis status reduces speed by 75% unlike SM which has been decreased to 50%
Credit to phantom and to everyone involved in the building of this at the time

S RANK:
The best of the best. Reserved for Pokemon who shape and define the RU metagame and are a clear-cut above the rest of the tier. These Pokemon are typically very powerful offensive threats that are difficult to prepare for and/or are phenomenal support and defensive threats that provide significant utility or defensive potential, respectively. Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths.

Alomomola
Flygon
Venusaur

A RANK:
Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame and can perform well against most play styles, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently. Supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time. Pokemon in this rank are also known to define the play styles they fit on or are easy to add on any given team, while being able to carry their weight nearly every match.

A+ Rank

Diancie
Drapion
Magneton
Registeel
Sigilyph
Sneasel
Virizion

A Rank

Camerupt (mega)
Escavalier
Glalie (mega)
Jellicent
Medicham
Meloetta
Rhyperior
Slowking

A- Rank

Absol
Aerodactyl
Audino (mega)
Blastoise
Emboar
Jolteon
Sawk
Scrafty
Uxie

B RANK:
Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job, are setup bait for dangerous sweepers, or often give too many free turns. Pokemon who are partially outperformed or struggle with taking on the Pokemon in the A or S Rank, but are otherwise dangerous in their own right and aren't difficult to fit on teams, may also fall into this category.

B+ Rank

Braviary
Bronzong
Exploud
Garbodor
Granbull
Gurdurr
Hitmonlee
Houndoom
Rotom-Mow
Seismitoad
Steelix
Xatu

B Rank

Delphox
Fletchinder
Gallade
Hoopa
Malamar
Rotom
Spiritomb
Torterra
Vivillon
Weezing

B- Rank

Abomasnow
Accelgor
Druddigon
Gourgeist XL
Hariyama
Mesprit
Musharna
Omastar
Piloswine
Scyther

C RANK:
Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective in the right setting, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are completely eclipsed by a Pokemon in the above ranks. Pokemon in this rank typically require more extensive support, struggle performing against the Pokemon ranked above, and are difficult to fit on teams.

C+ Rank

Aggron
Aromatisse
Aurorus
Banette (mega)
Barbaracle
Clawitzer
Golbat
Lanturn
Poliwrath
Sceptile
Togetic

C Rank

Eelektross
Ferroseed
Hitmontop
Kabutops
Liepard
Ludicolo
Manectric
Pelipper
Quagsire
Qwilfish
Samurott
Skuntank

C- Rank

Archeops
Articuno
Cofagrigus
Jynx
Klinklang
Lilligant
Roselia
Rotom-S
Smeargle

MERU RANK aka BLACKLISTED aka D RANK:
The worst of the worst. Bad pkmn (RU Pokemon by usage that are bad will be listed here. Everything not listed also falls in here). Unviable Pokemon that have been repeatedly brought up in this thread, whether they're RU by usage or not, will also be listed here. Discussion on these Pokemon often tends to derail the thread, and therefore discussion on them is not allowed.

D Rank

Ambipom
Cinccino

D- Rank

Typhlosion




 
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MrAldo

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XY RU


Will follow the same generation mechanics as ORAS.

Notable differences:

  • Baton Pass is legal so has to be played in ORAS Ubers.
  • Arena Trap IS legal so Dugtrio is a thing
S Rank:
Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths.

Abomasnow (mega)
Moltres (Pre-Flame Body)
Meloetta

A Rank:
Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently. Supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time.

A+ Rank

Cobalion
Cresselia
Doublade
Gligar
Reuniclus
Sharpedo
Slowking

A Rank

Alomomola
Aromatisse
Drapion
Druddigon
Fletchinder
Hitmonlee
Rhyperior
Spiritomb
Virizion

A- Rank

Clawitzer
Delphox
Dugtrio
Durant
Escavalier
Exploud
Jolteon
Magneton
Registeel
Shiftry

B Rank:
Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outperformed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.

B+ Rank

Accelgor
Audino
Amoonguss
Braviary
Eelektross
Gurdurr
Kabutops
Omastar
Rotom-Mow
Qwilfish
Skuntank

B Rank

Bronzong
Combusken (Pre-BP Complex Ban)
Emboar (Pre-Reckless)
Golbat
Heliolisk (Pre-Hyper Voice)
Lanturn
Mesprit
Sigilyph
Tangrowth
Weezing
Whimsicott
Togetic

B- Rank

Archeops
Banette (mega)
Cinccino
Gallade
Gastrodon
Gorebyss (Pre-BP Complex Ban)
Granbull
Hitmontop
Kricketune
Mismagius
Sawk
Seismitoad
Slurpuff (Pre-Drain Punch)
Xatu
Zangoose

C Rank:
Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are completely eclipsed by a Pokemon in the above ranks.

C+ Rank

Cofagrigus
Cradily
Dragalge (Pre-Adaptability)
Gourgeist Small
Gourgeist XL
Liepard
Piloswine
Regirock
Roselia
Rotom-F
Sandslash
Sneasel
Torterra
Tyrantrum (Pre-Rock Head and Tutor Moves, Superpower etc)
Uxie
Vivillon

C Rank

Bouffalant
Chatot (Pre-Heat Wave + Boomburst)
Feraligatr (Pre-Sheer Force)
Ferroseed
Jynx
Meowstic-Male
Miltank
Pangoro (Pre-Tutor Moves, Knock Off, Gunk Shot, Superpower, Drain Punch, etc)
Pelipper
Rotom
Sceptile
Steelix
Tauros

C- Rank

Abomasnow
Arbok
Barbaracle
ROCK WITH EYES
Ditto
Lickilicky
Jellicent
Ludicolo
Pyroar
Rotom-S
Swellow

D Rank:
Reserved for Pokemon who have a small niche in the current metagame, but have very noticeable flaws that make them more trouble than they're worth the majority of the time.

Ambipom
Cacturne
Exeggutor
Hippopotas
Mr. Mime
Lilligant
Linoone
Mightyena
Pawniard
Poliwrath
Scyther
Stoutland
Stunfisk
Victreebel
Zweilous

E Rank:
bad pkmn (RU Pokemon by usage that are bad will be listed here. Everything not listed also falls in here.)

Claydol
Hitmonchan

A more comprehensive guide has been compiled here for all the VRs and most relevant mons. Thanks bkdrew for the assistance. And to Oldamar999 for some corrections here and there.
https://pokepast.es/7d97f72929a6c4db


Qwilfish (M) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Taunt
- Spikes
- Explosion
- Toxic Spikes

Mesprit @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Psyshock
- Ice Beam
- Healing Wish

Abomasnow @ Abomasite
Ability: Soundproof
EVs: 168 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 84 Spe
Mild Nature
- Ice Shard
- Giga Drain
- Blizzard
- Focus Blast

Doublade @ Eviolite
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 212 HP / 252 Atk / 44 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Iron Head
- Shadow Claw
- Shadow Sneak

Moltres @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- U-turn
- Overheat
- Hurricane
- Flamethrower

Kabutops @ Assault Vest
Ability: Weak Armor
EVs: 96 HP / 252 Atk / 160 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stone Edge
- Knock Off
- Aqua Jet
- Rapid Spin


Abomasnow-Mega @ Abomasite
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 224 HP / 252 Atk / 32 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Ice Shard
- Wood Hammer
- Earthquake

Druddigon @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Glare
- Dragon Claw
- Fire Punch

Slowking @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 232 HP / 252 SpA / 24 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Fire Blast
- Blizzard
- Psyshock

Gligar @ Eviolite
Ability: Hyper Cutter
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Impish Nature
IVs: 30 Spe
- Defog
- U-turn
- Earthquake
- Roost

Rotom-Frost @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Blizzard
- Substitute
- Pain Split

Sharpedo @ Life Orb
Ability: Speed Boost
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Waterfall
- Protect
- Crunch
- Zen Headbutt


Rhyperior @ Leftovers
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 248 HP / 16 Atk / 220 SpD / 24 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Rock Blast
- Megahorn

Doublade @ Eviolite
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 200 HP / 252 Atk / 56 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Iron Head
- Shadow Claw
- Shadow Sneak

Gurdurr @ Eviolite
Ability: Guts
EVs: 232 HP / 252 Atk / 24 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bulk Up
- Drain Punch
- Knock Off
- Mach Punch

Slowking @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 244 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD / 4 Spe
Modest Nature
- Scald
- Psyshock
- Fire Blast
- Grass Knot

Moltres @ Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Fire Blast
- Hurricane
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Roost

Shiftry @ Life Orb
Ability: Early Bird
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Sucker Punch
- Knock Off
- Leaf Storm
- Defog
 
Last edited:

MrAldo

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BW RU


Generation 5 specific mechanics:
  • Dark and Ghost are resisted by Steel instead of neutral
  • Sleep turns reset to 0 when you switch out.
  • Hidden Power has a max base power of 70, and the base power depends on the Pokemon's IVs.
  • Grass-types can be affected by powder moves like Spore, Sleep Powder, Stun Spore unless they have an ability to avoid it.
  • Electric-types can be paralyzed by Thunder Wave unless they have an ability to avoid it.
  • Critical Hits deal double the damage instead of x1.5 from Gen 6 onwards.
  • Several other moves had different base power, PP, or accuracy.
Credit to Molk and the rest of the RU community at the time for compiling this.

S Rank: Reserved for the top threats in the RU metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well with little to no extra support. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this tier have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.

  • Druddigon

  • Durant

  • Moltres
A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are outstanding in the RU metagame and can sweep, wall, or support the majority of the tier. These Pokemon require less support than other Pokemon to be used effectively, but still perform less consistently than the average S rank Pokemon. A rank Pokemon have few flaws that can be overlooked when compared to their positive traits.

Top:

  • Alomomola

  • Kabutops

  • Magneton

  • Qwilfish

  • Rotom-C

  • Sceptile

  • Sigilyph
Mid:

  • Aerodactyl

  • Amoonguss

  • Golurk

  • Lilligant

  • Rotom-N

  • Slowking

  • Steelix

  • Uxie
Low:

  • Aggron

  • Cryogonal

  • Entei

  • Gallade

  • Jynx

  • Lanturn

  • Mesprit

  • Omastar

  • Rhydon

  • Scolipede

  • Smeargle

  • Tangrowth
B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who are slightly above average in the RU metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than of those above it that affects how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential

Top:

  • Absol

  • Accelgor

  • Braviary

  • Cinccino

  • Clefable

  • Escavalier

  • Emboar

  • Ferroseed

  • Garbodor

  • Gothorita

  • Manectric

  • Piloswine

  • Roselia

  • Spiritomb

  • Torterra
Mid:

  • Archeops

  • Bouffalant

  • Crustle

  • Drapion

  • Exeggutor

  • Fraxure

  • Galvantula

  • Haunter

  • Hitmonlee

  • Kangaskhan

  • Klinklang

  • Ludicolo

  • Medicham

  • Rotom-F

  • Sawsbuck

  • Scyther

  • Seismitoad

  • Tauros

  • Zangoose
Low:

  • Altaria

  • Drifblim

  • Feraligatr

  • Gurdurr

  • Hariyama

  • Magmortar

  • Misdreavus

  • Miltank

  • Musharna

  • Poliwrath

  • Regirock

  • Samurott

  • Swellow

  • Typhlosion
C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the RU metagame, but have just as notable flaws that prevent them from being top tier threats. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be as effective as higher ranked Pokemon in RU. C rank Pokemon tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon.

Top:

  • Cacturne

  • Carracosta

  • Charizard

  • Crawdaunt

  • Dragonair

  • Duosion

  • Eelektross

  • Gardevoir

  • Hitmonchan

  • Mandibuzz

  • Pinsir

  • Primeape

  • Shiftry

  • Zweilous
Mid:

  • Electivire

  • Kadabra

  • Quagsire

  • Rotom-S

  • Swanna

  • Victreebel
Low:

  • Arbok

  • Basculin

  • Butterfree

  • Camerupt

  • Gabite

  • Lickilicky

  • Liepard

  • Murkrow

  • Relicanth

  • Sandslash

  • Scraggy

  • Vigoroth

  • Volbeat

  • Weezing

  • Whimsicott
D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are below average in the RU metagame. These Pokemon often require very significant amounts of support with a relatively low reward compared to higher ranked Pokemon.

Top:

  • Ditto

  • Flareon

  • Leafeon

  • Linoone

  • Marowak

  • Muk

  • Riolu

  • Serperior

  • Simipour

  • Skuntank

  • Torkoal
Low:

  • Articuno

  • Audino

  • Dusknoir

  • Golem

  • Gorebyss

  • Natu

  • Ninjask

  • Rapidash

  • Shedinja

  • Shelgon

  • Swoobat

  • Vileplume








 
Last edited:

rau

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Let's kick this off.

Scrafty is great, man. One of the if not, most underrated sweepers present in the tier. While it may not have the most impressive Attack or Speed stat, Scrafty more than makes up for it due to its pretty decent bulk and access to Dragon Dance. The presence of bulky, rather passive Pokemon such as Alomomola and Registeel give Scrafty plenty of chances to start boosting. Thanks to Shed Skin, Scrafty shrugs off Toxic and Scald burns like nothing, letting it boost to +6 on your ass (don't get me wrong: Intimidate and Moxie are great abilities, but they dont stop Alomomola from fucking you over). You're probably thinking "boohoo, its great STAB moves in Drain Punch, Knock Off, and High Jump Kick are resisted by Fairy types!", but luckily Scrafty has Iron Head, which can OHKO Diancie after a boost and has a high Flinch chance to let it cheese through the other fairies like Granbull (who loses its only form of recovery if it's hit by Knock Off) and Aromatisse. It also has the tools to bypass most of its checks with ease. Wanna be able to set up on Virizion / avoid being revenge killed by Choice Scarf Emboar / Choice Band Sawk? Chople Berry. Need some extra longevity and Drain Punch just wont cut it? Rest. Wanna chunk those pesky Venusaur and Golbat? Zen Headbutt (believe me, it works). There's plenty of other neat techs you could try, so give this mon a shot if you ever wanna build an ORAS team. Also Jesus Christ, guys. This guy is the literal Trifecta Slayer, 6-0's that team so hard. Why aren't y'all using Scrafty more?

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen6ru-363816
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ru-408301745
some replays of Scrafty putting in work
 
Last edited:
oofinators.
I think that it's time to discuss something pertinent to BW RU I'm really FIRED up about at the moment, SUN teams. Now at first I saw sun teams as a relatively niche way to be able to slice through more offensive builds, but after using sun in testing and bw cup I realized that this simply wasn't true. If anything, sun teams seem particularly effective at neutralizing matchup to me, as the bulkier builds in the metagame struggle to have countermeasures to boosting sweepers like Victrebell and Lilligant, and thus have to double aggressively to stall out sun turns and carefully position themselves. Likewise, more offensive builds are forced to play very carefully in order to preserve enough resources to position themselves to countersweep. In essence, sun is highly effective at putting the offensive tools into its users hands, and it offers a very threatening and diverse lineup of mons to do so with. Yes, sun is not infallible, and can be ct'd by the occasional Altaria or often dangerous countersweepers like SD Sceptile or OTR Slowing. On the whole, however, sun is very consistent, despite a reputation among some that it is a "cheese" strategy. Furthermore, there are enough sun abusers + setters to make multiple diverse sun team lineups, making it hard to ct in the abstract. Whether its tearing apart the ubiquitous Water/ Grass regen cores, or slicing through offenses scarf revenge killers, sun is simply way too versatile to be considered gimmicky, and I think that further use of it in the metagame, and adaptations to the base formula, could have some truly startling results.
 

MrAldo

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The main issue I feel with Sun is that these type of builds really despise seeing Druddigon and Moltres as such dominant beasts (BROKEN BEASTS) in this metagame. Sun builds have an inherent weakness to any Moltres set, unless you resort to really niche things like *cough* Regirock *cough* and Druddigon has enough raw bulk to trade with any Sun abuser available. Like ok, they could potentially work in the right matchup and can easily overwhelm bulkier builds but in general the tier is far more offensive and these builds being so awfully weak to such common titanic threats doesnt make it any more easier to pull off. It is just praying for a matchup when there are less linear ways to deal with stuff offensively imo, but it is an interesting though.

And isnt like lilligant needs the sun support to be effective. Really threatening Quiver Dance sweeper which main shortcoming is the lack of coverage and having to pick between hidden powers but thanks to sleep powder and sleep being STUPID in bw, it is really threatening from mid to late game scenarios and given the proper support.

Scrafty in ORAS is an excellent setup sweeper, perhaps the most effective against fat builds given Shed Skin which allows it to cheese through status but I believe the most notorious shortcoming is what would it run. On paper it can run many things but then it misses on something. From what I remember at the end of ORAS it used Dragon Dance/Rest/Knock Off High Jump Kick which let it plow through fairy less type balances easily, especially if the Venu lacked Leech Seed but then there is the Iron Head Drain Punch set but I believe having such a weak fighting stab makes it so unappealing. Failing to KO Viriz and it killing you back at +1 is a rather sad though. It pairs really well with mons that take advantage of Fairy types like Delphox, Venusaur, and Escavalier so it well supported it easily clean through teams since it can grab very easily against fat stuff.
 

MrAldo

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Moderator
Just wanna pass by and say that if you wanna share some cool fantastic amazing past gens teams, go for it!

Like this cool fantastic amazing team shared by Vroski King Wynaut


Wisemen (Slowking) @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 29 Spe
- Nasty Plot
- Trick Room
- Psychic
- Scald

You're Beautiful (Druddigon) @ Choice Band
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 76 HP / 252 Atk / 180 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Outrage
- Dragon Claw
- Fire Punch
- Sucker Punch

So Long, Jimmy (Sceptile) @ Flying Gem
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Leaf Blade
- Acrobatics
- Earthquake

Goodbye my Lover (Medicham) @ Life Orb
Ability: Pure Power
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- High Jump Kick
- Zen Headbutt
- Thunder Punch

Tears and Rain (Omastar) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Weak Armor
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spikes
- Scald
- Ice Beam
- Stealth Rock

Out of my Mind (Rotom) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Shadow Ball
- Trick

A beautiful reflection of such an offensive meta. Lay down your hazards and play it right and you are good to go!

Accepting teams from BW and ORAS af. Just tell me you trust them and we gucci. Will add a section for those on the main posts. Discuss something imo.
 

MrAldo

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Continuing with BW RU. Wanting to make some revamps to the viability ranking and there is a consensus that in general it seems right bar some things that are really off:

Escavalier is way too high atm: While banded can be really rough to switch into the middling speed tier and the omnipresence of Pokemon that can be huge pressure against it and take advantage of the bug knight in a plethora of ways like Moltres, Qwilfish, Emboar, Druddigon, Entei. Cant stop Sigilyph at all, and isnt even that reliable against Ice-types like Cryogonal since they generally run HP Fire. Having a sceptile hard check is cool and having a way to ditch immense damage to the likes of Uxie and Slowking is pretty nice but it being so easy to chip down and being forced to run occa berry to even attempt to check some things and makes it less appealing that other steel types like Durant or even Ferroseed cause while even more sluggish than Escavalier it has spikes + water resist to put Kabutops in check at least. Putting it in A- in the meantime.

Slowking isnt on the top anymore: This one is rather controversial but I believe Slowking capabilities in this metagame are somewhat overrated compared to other water types in this tier. It has plenty of sets but sometimes it feels like a jack of all trades type of deal when other water types have a single job but they are really really good at that (kabutops being the best spinner, qwilfish being the best spiker, Mola being the best physical pivot in the tier to some ridiculous shit like Durant). It is still a really good mon with an amazing amount of viable sets but even then I dont think it is that much better than Kabutops or the other water types. Putting it in S- in the meantime.

Absol and Tauros are too high: Like for real, I havent seen this mons do anything at all lately. Absol is like one of the most threatening mons on paper but on practice it really falls apart at the current state in the metagame since it is so offensive it will hardly find setup opportunities I feel. Tauros is really interesting and it having sheer force fire blast makes some potential switch-ins non switch-ins (like Steelix and Ferroseed) but I seriously doubt it is A material atm. Naturally outspeed Durant is super dope tho. Putting both in B+ in the meantime, Tauros could be A- but I just dont see it.

Moltres to the top alongside Druddigon, and Durant to S: Cmon now, Moltres is one of those metagame defining mons that are absolutely painful to face with just 2 sets depending if you are using bulky teams or offense. It should be alongside just on how ridiculous it is to handle and how constraining it can be for teambuilding. Durant has been an excellent offensive component to many teams lately seen. Impeccable speed tier and thanks to that it can be use Adamant Nature as a scarf user. Choice band set hurt... a lot. Think this mon should be rewarded with a much better positioning.

Any discussion can be nice to see what you think about other mons that could drop or rise. All of that is good.
 

SilentVerse

Into the New World
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IMO the old viability rankings weren't very reflective of BW RU at its end, since a lot of it still reflects what BW RU was like when Nidoqueen was still in the tier (since the meta only really developed post Nidoqueen in SPL 5, which was when XY was already out and the tier was dead af so no one was updating the rankings). I think more accurate rankings could be obtained if you were to go through the last page of this thread, since that has my / Nails / HNC / Texas's thoughts on the meta after that SPL. I'm too lazy to go through the current BW RU rankings that were posted earlier and say which mons should rise / drop one by one (since there should be a ton of changes tbh), but if I were to do a rough grouping of the BW RU mons right now I think something like this would be much more accurate:

SS Tier:
Druddigon

S Tier:
Alomomola
Durant
Moltres

A+ Tier:
Sceptile
Magneton
Rotom-C
Sigilyph
Qwilfish

A Tier:
Kabutops
Aerodactyl
Steelix
Golurk
Slowking
Emboar
Rotom-N
Rhydon

A-Tier:
Cryogonal
Scolipede
Spiritomb
Uxie
Lilligant
Mesprit
Tangrowth
Amoonguss
Gallade
Entei
Smeargle
Omastar

B+ Tier:
Accelgor
Aggron
Braviary
Clefable
Cinccino
Escavalier
Ferroseed
Gothorita
Jynx
Manectric
Roselia
Seismitoad
Torterra

B Tier:
Absol
Archeops
Bouffalant
Crustle
Exeggutor
Fraxure
Galvantula
Garbodor
Haunter
Kangaskhan
Klinklang
Lanturn
Medicham
Piloswine
Rotom-F
Sawsbuck
Scyther
Tauros
Zangoose


I did some rough ordering for the A-tier / S-tier Pokemon, but B-tier mons are just alphabetical cuz I'm lazy. B+ are mons that are good but slightly niche, they can generally fit onto a lot of good teams but require a bit more support. B tier are niche mons that aren't amazing but can be neat in some builds. Everything not on this list kinda sucks or is really matchup dependent (Riolu, Liepard, Volbeat come to mind) or I forgot about them since BW RU has been dead for a while. Feel free to ask why I think certain mons should be where they are, or argue some things since this list certainly isn't perfect and I know some other BW RU players will probably disagree with some of my placements.
 

lighthouses

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Feel like sceptile in S is something to give consideration to, also would not place cryogonal so high myself but overall i think your list is much better :heart:
As for ORAS there are a couple things id like to suggest:
Magneton to A+ rank: Magnets has been a lot more effective lately due to people catching up with the fact that it's a lot better at wallbreaking when it can switch up moves, feel like its current placement was more due to the fact that specs was the most common set. One good example of this is the 'recent' substitute set that just stuffs these venusaur/flygon balance teams as well as the fact that mega camerupt barely sees any play anymore and steelix really isnt that hard to weaken in my opinion.

Virizion to S rank: Definitely the most restraining mon you need to worry about while teambuilding, every single team needs to have like 2 or more mons to be 'safe' against virizon and even then its ability to outlast the opponents answers is kinda ridiculous. Couple that with the fact that you need to account for three offensive sets with very different sets of checks(calm mind for example will usually just muscle through a lot of the common answers to sd virizion and vice-versa). Also worth mentioning that ORAS has really poor revenge killing options, with drapion and emboar being extremely punishable and fletchinder barely seeing any play as of late.

Flygon to A+ rank: Flygon on the other hand i dont think is as metagame defining as the other s mons and virizion. Choice band is easily the best and most threatening set you can run and is what people should be worrying about, however, it often is the case that you just can't afford to run non support flygon in a lot of teams, it's just too useful given the tiers lack of good removal options as well as it being the single best drapion answer in the tier probably. And even cb flygon itself has been overprepped for with people finally giving consideration to granbull as a fairy as opposed to aromatisse and alomomola pivoting around it pretty easily in conjunction with that.

Banette to C rank: Things ass and nobody ever uses it, ban

Garbodor do B+ or A: No way this thing should be listed in the same rank as shit like malamar, spiritomb and fucking banette of all things. It uses the best pokemon in the tier as spikes fodder and it can get around support flygon very nicely with a toxic + protect set. Also a very good virizion answer and general fighting resistance.
 

Oglemi

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IMO the old viability rankings weren't very reflective of BW RU at its end, since a lot of it still reflects what BW RU was like when Nidoqueen was still in the tier (since the meta only really developed post Nidoqueen in SPL 5, which was when XY was already out and the tier was dead af so no one was updating the rankings). I think more accurate rankings could be obtained if you were to go through the last page of this thread, since that has my / Nails / HNC / Texas's thoughts on the meta after that SPL. I'm too lazy to go through the current BW RU rankings that were posted earlier and say which mons should rise / drop one by one (since there should be a ton of changes tbh), but if I were to do a rough grouping of the BW RU mons right now I think something like this would be much more accurate:

SS Tier:
Druddigon

S Tier:
Alomomola
Durant
Moltres

A+ Tier:
Sceptile
Magneton
Rotom-C
Sigilyph
Qwilfish

A Tier:
Kabutops
Aerodactyl
Steelix
Golurk
Slowking
Emboar
Rotom-N
Rhydon

A-Tier:
Cryogonal
Scolipede
Spiritomb
Uxie
Lilligant
Mesprit
Tangrowth
Amoonguss
Gallade
Entei
Smeargle
Omastar

B+ Tier:
Accelgor
Aggron
Braviary
Clefable
Cinccino
Escavalier
Ferroseed
Gothorita
Jynx
Manectric
Roselia
Seismitoad
Torterra

B Tier:
Absol
Archeops
Bouffalant
Crustle
Exeggutor
Fraxure
Galvantula
Garbodor
Haunter
Kangaskhan
Klinklang
Lanturn
Medicham
Piloswine
Rotom-F
Sawsbuck
Scyther
Tauros
Zangoose


I did some rough ordering for the A-tier / S-tier Pokemon, but B-tier mons are just alphabetical cuz I'm lazy. B+ are mons that are good but slightly niche, they can generally fit onto a lot of good teams but require a bit more support. B tier are niche mons that aren't amazing but can be neat in some builds. Everything not on this list kinda sucks or is really matchup dependent (Riolu, Liepard, Volbeat come to mind) or I forgot about them since BW RU has been dead for a while. Feel free to ask why I think certain mons should be where they are, or argue some things since this list certainly isn't perfect and I know some other BW RU players will probably disagree with some of my placements.
Don't know that I would move Kabutops down that far, it's definitely a grade above Aero at the very least. Would also put Slowking either at the top of A or bottom of A+. Entei feels a bit low too, it's nowhere as good as it used to be but placing it that low, especially that low below Emboar, just feels wrong imo. I think Steelix is at least a grade better than Golurk, but I never liked lurk myself so meh. Esca also still should be an A- mon, it's better than anything else in B+ rank at least.
 

SilentVerse

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Feel like sceptile in S is something to give consideration to, also would not place cryogonal so high myself but overall i think your list is much better :heart:
Sceptile is definitely something that I could see being S, since you have to run multiple checks to it and its rarely ever useless. Its versatility makes it super annoying to deal with, since each set is oppressive against certain teams (White Herb Leaf Storm dongs offense, Choice Specs / LO dongs a lot of balance that don't run very reliable Leaf Storm switch-ins, SD / Mixed Acrobatics can cheese a lot of those dedicated Leaf Storm switch-ins). However, I do think that its just a ~tad below everything else in S, since I don't find it nearly as oppressive as the other S-mons in general (Moltres forces you to run like 1 of 3 Pokemon to have a check to it, Durant is super splashable with Scarf but it can also do some tricky things like Baton Pass out of its counters into brokenmons or just apply a ton of pressure with CB, Alomomola invalidates a lot of the tier, Drudd trades itself for another Pokemon consistently most games and soft checks a lot of the tier). Many soft Sceptile checks are Pokemon that are generally quite good or fit naturally onto builds. For example, Drudd is an ~ok check, especially with CB Pursuit, as are Scarf Durant / Moltres, and balance cores featuring Alo / Rose or anything with Amoonguss find Sceptile pretty manageable. Absurdly strong mon, but in my list I reserved S for mons that were kinda busted imo, and Sceptile is just not as hilariously busted as the mons above it.

As for Cryogonal, that placement does seem a bit high, but honestly I've thought the mon has been kinda underrated after mr Afro Smash showed me the light back in SPL 5. Offensive LO / Icicle Plate is the most reliable spinner in the tier (Kabutops is a good Pokemon, but I find that as a spinner its actually not that great against a lot of offensive spike builds since it's relatively slow and it has issues with bulkier Rotom-N sets and bulkier Golurk sets if it lacks Waterfall) since it's fast, 1v1s Rotom-N and has recovery. It's also great at checking Sigilyph and applies a lot of pressure to builds with Kabu / Qwil as their water with slow Ice weak Pokemon (Drudd, Tang, Torterra, non Scarf Rotom-C, for example). It is a bit hard to fit onto teams sometimes since it's SR weak and lacks useful resistances and does struggle with Yache Golurk / Spiritomb (you can run Reflect to circumvent this a bit), but its matchup against offensive Spikes is definitely noteworthy, given how strong that archetype is. That being said, I could be overrating it a bit, so let me know if you guys still think otherwise!

Don't know that I would move Kabutops down that far, it's definitely a grade above Aero at the very least. Would also put Slowking either at the top of A or bottom of A+. Entei feels a bit low too, it's nowhere as good as it used to be but placing it that low, especially that low below Emboar, just feels wrong imo. I think Steelix is at least a grade better than Golurk, but I never liked lurk myself so meh. Esca also still should be an A- mon, it's better than anything else in B+ rank at least.
Kabutops is another borderline Pokemon, I kinda wanted to put it in A+ since it's a great Pokemon that fits onto a lot of teams, but at the same time it has felt a bit underwhelming on builds when I've used it. It just gets pressured a bit too hard by the stuff it wants to deal with, imo. Moltres does a ton with Hurricane, and Kabutops is often forced into Ajetting it, letting stuff like Sceptile come in for free, and being so slow, frail, and vulnerable to Spikes makes it hard to actually spin with it against offensive Spikes builds. It also kinda has some 4mss in that it wants both SD and Waterfall and needs Stone Edge / Ajet / Spin. I wouldn't really be opposed to putting it in A+, but I don't think its nearly as consistent at what it does as the other stuff in A+.

I think Slowking being in the middle of A is very fair for the mon. Defensive is still fantastic at checking stuff like Sigilyph / Fighters / Entei / Jynx, and offensive sets can be pretty scary. The meta at the moment is just not very favorable to it though, since stuff like Durant / Druddigon / Sceptile / Rotom-C threaten it so much and letting those mons get free attacks off is not fun. Still a good mon imo, but you do have to be a little careful when using it, unlike the stuff above it which generally just fit onto teams pretty easily.

Honestly I was very tempted to put Entei in B for a while, since physical attacking sets are hot garbage against so many common builds (what does CB Entei do vs Mola / Qwilfish teams other than give free Wishes to things / let Qwilfish get a billion layers, and so much stuff like Druddigon / Aerodactyl / Kabutops / Rhydon / Seismitoad check it naturally and fit onto teams so nicely, etc). However, I think A- is appropriate at the moment since SubCM Entei is actually quite decent at matchuping Alomomola builds as long as you pair it with a Tspikes absorber, and you still have to have a solid Flare Blitz switch-in or CB Flare Blitz will take lives. Also, CB Espeed is still as good as ever. It does make me feel sad putting it so low, but I just don't think the mon is as meta defining as it was before, unfortunately :(.

Steelix and Golurk tend to fit on different builds, but they're both really reliable Stealth Rockers that are fantastic at what they do so I think putting them at about the same spot is fair. Steelix is the best defensive Steel in the tier, and it's a necessary glue for a lot of balance / defensive teams as a result of that. It can definitely fit on offensive teams, since Custap Steelix is also great at getting SR up while still maintaining offensive pressure / tempo with Explosion, but generally its a bit more limited to slower builds. However, Golurk's ability to reliably set up SR, spinblock, be a Vswitch immune and provide some offensive pressure is amazing for Spikes focused builds. Additionally, something I think that's really cool about the mon is that it's just so insanely flexible. For example, it can run like, ~5 different type resist berries to check certain threats more effectively / lure things, which is incredibly cool. Yache lets you come in Cryogonal Ice Beams safely on a mispredict, Passho makes switching into Waterfall Kabutops safer, Rindo lets you come into Rotom-C and maybe catch a Sceptile / Sawsbuck with Ice Punch, Kasib works for Rotom-N, and even Colbur is usable if you wanna like, EQ a Drapion or something (ok this is probably slightly troll). That's not even getting into the weird things it can do with different gems, Custap berry, or random move choices. It doesn't really reliably counter things like Steelix does, but its very good at swinging the tempo of the game in your favor on offensive teams and its very easy to tailor it to whatever you need while providing a ton of neat utility.

Escavalier is just not a very good Pokemon, imo. Since Durant is so popular a lot of its checks are super common (Qwilfish, Moltres, Emboar, Magneton, Steelix) and being so slow + weak to Spikes just means that it often just Megahorns a resist and gives a free turn to your opponent the first time it comes in, then takes so much damage from residual that it just dies when it comes in again. This mon also probably has the worst speed tier in the tier, since it has to run a buttload of speed to beat Slowking safely, which eats into its already mediocre bulk with hazards taken into account. The mon is only redeemed by the fact that it's a Steel type and has a really strong Pursuit, which lets it make Sceptile really regret pressing Leaf Storm and eat up Psychics like Jynx / Mesprit / Uxie for breakfast. Even then, it's a Steel type that gets outsped and 2HKOed by CB Druddigon Outrage, which defeats the purpose of using a Steel type in the first place half the time.

Let me know if you guys have any other thoughts! Writing this post was super fun, and I always enjoy getting a chance to share my thoughts on BW RU things ^_^.
 

MrAldo

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Ah, the discussion is fantastic. Thanks a lot! It seriously means a lot to help this BW VR to get in the right direction. Will get to implement the changes as soon as possible. With some personal nitpicks ofc (think Cryogonal is good, but not that good).

This is super excellent tho, keep it going!
 

Oglemi

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Steelix and Golurk tend to fit on different builds, but they're both really reliable Stealth Rockers that are fantastic at what they do so I think putting them at about the same spot is fair. Steelix is the best defensive Steel in the tier, and it's a necessary glue for a lot of balance / defensive teams as a result of that. It can definitely fit on offensive teams, since Custap Steelix is also great at getting SR up while still maintaining offensive pressure / tempo with Explosion, but generally its a bit more limited to slower builds. However, Golurk's ability to reliably set up SR, spinblock, be a Vswitch immune and provide some offensive pressure is amazing for Spikes focused builds. Additionally, something I think that's really cool about the mon is that it's just so insanely flexible. For example, it can run like, ~5 different type resist berries to check certain threats more effectively / lure things, which is incredibly cool. Yache lets you come in Cryogonal Ice Beams safely on a mispredict, Passho makes switching into Waterfall Kabutops safer, Rindo lets you come into Rotom-C and maybe catch a Sceptile / Sawsbuck with Ice Punch, Kasib works for Rotom-N, and even Colbur is usable if you wanna like, EQ a Drapion or something (ok this is probably slightly troll). That's not even getting into the weird things it can do with different gems, Custap berry, or random move choices. It doesn't really reliably counter things like Steelix does, but its very good at swinging the tempo of the game in your favor on offensive teams and its very easy to tailor it to whatever you need while providing a ton of neat utility.
.
Still think you're overselling Golurk a bit, like sure he's kinda customizable, and probably fits teams that rely on one good turn to push the game in their favor (probably why I don't like lurk in the first place tbh) but the fact he doesn't resist anything useful besides Fighting and Rock is kinda big, especially compared to lix. Like, Lix being Fire weak is pretty ass, but being Pursuit weak when Drudd is the best mon in the meta is also pretty ass, and not resisting Iron Head from Durant and being weak to Grass and Ice is also just so ughhh. Like, Lurk can get SR up, but Lix can get SR up and get it back up again and again if needed, I've just never had that kind of consistency with Lurk even though he fkn is immune to Spin lol.

IDK, I get that they fit different teams while having the same goal, but the fact that Lix fits a broader range of teams and gets SR up multiple times consistently should set it a grade higher imo.
 
aye, thought it might be worth giving my input on this, though for the most part i find myself agreeing w/sv's final list. personally, i feel that i would have magneton in a and probably absol / spiritomb b+, though there is a mild personal preference to that.

personally i am of a similar mind w/sv in regards to the spinners, and the drop of kabutops and rise of cryogonal is very much conducive to the way most competent balance / offenses play the spike game at this time. for quite some time now that theoretical application of tops to be able to kill the spinblocker and offer the window to spin later in the game has been stifled substantially by the rise of options like hp invested scarf rotom, in addition to the tendency of such teams to subsist of pokemon capable of forcing out and thereafter preventing tops from spinning at that 50% after two sr + spikes switch-ins (think spikes / sr / rotom / sceptile / otr king / lo drudd / ant). by contrast, cryogonal tends to fare much better, being not immediately threatened by rotom-n in any real way, applying that similar pressure to a non-tech'd golurk and having the bulk and speed to work around a handful of the immediate responses that bother kabutops. in terms of consistently providing a spin in this metagame, i feel cryo is just far more likely to get the spin off v.teams dedicated to keeping hazards.

personally i've too been on the fence about entei for some time, but frankly i skew towards it being worth that a- at this time. the concessions made to qwilfish / mola are surely there, but outside those games cb entei is a huge asset, and even the worse games are redeemable. the qwilfish games are still allowing you to pave the way for an endgame from a partner like durant quite well, and even the tops v.rotom sequence that'll likely incur from it does offer up a better window for entei to espeed clean in a convoluted way. plus, its not as though the tier isn't rife w/mola exploitation if you're willing enough to work for it. at this time i do find the cm entei's to be a smidge out of proportion to its utility, but it is surely a set that makes him less one-dimensional. i'd be down for it being where it is.

as for golurk, i am of the mind that while it is not a particularly great pokemon in and of itself, it simply sits at too important of a crossroads of utility to be underrated in a spikes-centric meta. for some time now i've felt as though lefties golurk is a non-option for just how it compounds on this mediocrity, and if you are to get the most bang for your buck you should be investing in resist berries, or perhaps even custap depending on context. put basically, playing the sr + spinblock function on a team opens you as a spikes player to cover [almost] all permutations of anti-hazard protocol, incorporating both the tools to prevent a proceeding spin and / or winning out on a spinner for golurk trade on its own merit, be it through a passho + shadow punch variant (expanding its utility to an otr king check), yache + dynamicpunch / stone edge, etc. it can even extend itself past the spinner game to target other commonplace issues for these archetypes with kasib berry for rotom, custap fire punch helping quite a lot with ant + grasses selectively, and so forth. ultimately golurk itself is not /that/ amazing, but the fact that it offers spike-stack this key compression while having a move and item slot almost entirely open to individual needs makes it somewhat of an essential mon rn.
 

SilentVerse

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Mr col49 hit the nail on the head in terms of my thoughts on Golurk, but yea the gist of it is that Golurk itself kinda sucks, but being able to switch into a spin / Vswitch without losing momentum is honestly just really huge for some of the best teams in the meta atm. While Steelix does consistently get SR up, for a lot of teams getting spun on even once just really, really sucks if you spent time to get Spikes up. especially given that most of RU's Spikers (Qwilfish, Garbodor, Scolipede, Accelgor, Crustle, Omastar, Smeargle) really don't have any semblance of longevity, baring Roselia and Ferroseed if paired with Wish support. Of course, you can run a spinblocker with Steelix to alleviate this, but this takes up a bunch of teamslots and the selection of spinblockers in RU isn't really great nor are they entirely reliable (Spiritomb loses to Kabutops barring janky Scarf HP Grass sets, Rotom-N loses to Cryogonal, other blockers lose to both). Having SR + spinblock in a single teamslot while being able to customize Golurk to deal with either spinner more reliably is huge because you can use the teamslot you freed up by using Golurk to tailor your team to effectively deal with both spinners, ensuring that Spikes are up consistently. Additionally, while Golurk does lack a lot of the useful resists that Steelix brings, its resists are usually enough for the needs of most aggressive builds, since its resists let it switch into Aerodactyl / Durant X-scissor / Scolipede Megahorn / Accelgor and other fast mons a couple of times, which is often all that's needed.

I will admit that Golurk is a lot less valuable than Steelix if you aren't running Spikes, but with how good Spikes are in this tier and given how Golurk helps those builds succeed, I still think that its position is warranted. Also, I don't really think Golurk is an A- mon, since it's much, much more splashable and far less exploitable than the likes of Cryogonal / Scolipede / Spiritomb (and less exploitable than stuff below it in the same tier, like Emboar), and at the same time I don't really think Steelix is an A+ mon, since it's not nearly as meta-defining as Sceptile / Qwilfish / Sigilyph. Like, idk I'd feel weird putting Golurk below stuff like Emboar / Rotom-N, and I'd feel weird putting Steelix above stuff like Kabutops / Aerodactyl (even if Aerodactyl is a bad mon that's mostly useful because it's the closest thing to a "reliable" Moltres check that isn't complete trash otherwise and it can outspeed Sceptile / Sigilyph .mad).

In terms of Absol, I'm probably underrating the mon a bit. It's a very player-skill dependent Pokemon since it relies so much on reading the opponent to get free Pursuit / Spunches / SDs off, but personally I dislike mons like that since I find them inconsistent, hence the lower rank (I prefer making negative amounts of plays if possible cuz I like to avoid using my brain to win games). I also just don't really think it's quite as easy to fit onto teams as the stuff above it. While Spiritomb does have to make the same kinds of predictions, it's a lot less punishing since its typing makes it a reliable switch into things like Psychics Fighters and Normal spam mons, and it's probably the best spinblocker at dealing with Cryogonal. It's a bit of a weird mon in that it kinda sucks against most of the stuff above it, but it does beat a bunch of cheese mons in the B ranks and lower and it's rarely ever useless due to Pursuit / priority. Putting it closer to the bottom of A- might be a fair compromise however, so let me know what you guys think!

As for Magneton, I know that a few other BW RU dudes agree with you and don't rate it nearly as highly as I do, but I do love the mon a lot. It just makes so many lower tier Pokemon become legitimate threats and makes top tier threats even scarier, since trapping Steelix / Ferroseed really opens the door for stuff like Swellow / Cinccino / Braviary / Aggron to put in work, and stuff like Druddigon / Aerodactyl / Lilligant can make great use of those mons being gone as well. Also, its ability to make Durant think twice above pressing X-scissor / Iron head is real nice too, as is its general usefulness as a Steel-type that can spam Volt Switch. That being said, putting it above Rotom-C / Sigilyph / Qwilfish does seem a bit much in hindsight, so putting it at the bottom of A+ is probably more appropriate.
 
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Oglemi

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Absol is good but not an A mon imo, it's just too frail 80% of the time to really do what it wants. There's a few HO teams it works great on, and it has good offensive synergy with scep/moltres/swellow/kabu, but trying to fit it in any other mold always made me wish I was using drap/tomb/skunk instead :/
 

MrAldo

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Ah, after some hefty amount of time, the BW RU viability ranking upgrade is ready! Some personal preferences I disagree like Mola being S (imo) and with keeping Kabutops at A+ since I believe it can do some really neat things outside of spinning but overall it is the pretty most the list SilentVerse posted. Thanks a lot to SilentVerse col49 Oglemi for sparking some discussion and providing this list that was pretty much the whole base of this update, means a lot.

This is a great base to represent the metagame that is today and to discuss more changes without having to change everything. Fantastic!

Well get to the ORAS ones soon. Cheers!
 

Molk

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Might as well add some of my personal thoughts on the new BW viability rankings, do note that i haven't touched BW RU in a really long time though so some big meta shifts in tournaments and stuff might just be lost on me.

Spirit and i were talking in the RU discord a bit and i'd argue that Jynx should probably be somewhere in the A ranks instead of B+ like it is now. Jynx's SubNP set is just so immensely threatening, in part due to gen 5's game mechanics making getting hit by Lovely Kiss just that much more debilitating. Ice is definitely workable as an offensive type, Lovely Kiss can put Jynx's checks to sleep, making playing around it a bit awkward, and while its speed tier is only good instead of great, Substitute gives it a cushion against both faster Pokemon and priority and the threat of both Jynx's decently powerful Ice Beam and Lovely Kiss give it enough opportunities to force a switch so it can get a Substitute up in the first place. Alongside that, being able to set up on Alomomola essentially for free on a double (or by switching into anything not named Toxic really) and Escavalier dropping a bit from what i can see in this thread are two other large boons for Jynx in my opinion.

The lower ranks could probably deal with a bit of cleaning up, there are quite a few Pokemon down there that i'd rarely, if ever, consider using.

Scolipede's placement interests me, i'm not really against or for it, but i'd really appreciate it if someone filled me in on why it's so high up.

I've never been a fan of Drapion and i simply don't believe it's a B rank Pokemon. I feel like it really lacks the raw power it needs to be as big of an offensive threat as it wants to be (in future generations the Knock Off buff and Steel nerf really helped out with this, but in Gen 5 it has to rely on Crunch as a Dark-type STAB and rely on coverage to get past Steel-types effectively, which makes it significantly less threatening). From my experience, It struggles to KO much of anything that's reasonably bulky if they aren't straight up weak to its STABs, even when holding a Life Orb (which is a double edged sword because one of Drapion's main draws as an offensive Pokemon imo is that its typing and reasonable overall (mainly physical) bulk let it take a hit or two, Life Orb cuts into that). Specially Defensive sets can be neat due to its typing and access to Tspikes, Taunt, and Whirlwind but it sort of runs into the issue of both lacking recovery and simply put, not being *that* specially bulky either. It's not completely unusable but i'd strongly suggest moving it down to the C ranks personally.
 
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SilentVerse

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Tbh I was going to put Jynx in A- in the rankings I did, but I wasn't sure if ppl would agree with it since Jynx was relatively unexplored at the end of BW RU. I do think it's insanely good however, and I def support putting it in A-, maybe even A (I think if Lilligant is there, Jynx could def fit in A since it's similar in that it can come in on a bunch of common mons and threaten stuff with Sleep / setup / strong STAB attacks). SubNP is very very good as touched on by Molk, but stuff like LK + three attacks is also pretty crazy at pressuring many common cores since Ice + Psychic + Fight coverage coupled with Jynx's speed tier can be pretty oppressive, and Jynx can even pull off scarf sets due to how scary Ice STAB + sleep is. The fall of Slowking (+ that mon's vulnerability to Pursuit and Pursuit Drudd being a decent mon), Escavalier, and Entei have all just made the mon very very good.

I'll probably draft up a rough list of stuff from the lower ranks that should stay + maybe add some mons that are missing from it. Honestly I feel like the distinctions between C+ C and C- are pretty irrelevant since the mons all kinda suck, so it'd probably be better to just have a single C and a single D tier. There's also a few changes that I've been considering that might be worth looking into (Uxie from A- -> A, Samurott B- -> B, some others) but if I feel strongly enough about them I will argue for them later probably.

Scolipede is great mostly because it's a very fast offensive mon that absorbs Tspikes, that can either Spike or be a scary offensive threat with SubSD. I think a lot of the tier's better defensive teams rely heavily on TSpikes + Protect stalling via Alomomola / Clefable to stall out many of the dangerous attackers in this tier, so having a fast spiker that absorbs Tspikes is very strong if you can't fit a grounded Poison anywhere else (while Qwil is also very good for this, Scoli has some perks in Speed + offensive presence + grass resist that make it a nice choice for some teams). Furthermore, SubSD Scolipede is downright scary against some offensive teams, since Scolipede at +1 beats every relevant scarfer in the tier barring Jolly Cinccino (this is bad) and it's not hard to activate Salac due to its vulnerability to SR / Spikes. Offensive teams also are less likely to run things like Steelix and are more likely to run stuff like Golurk, which Scolipede can easily beat thanks to Aqua Tail.

Drapion really isn't great, but I definitely think it's better than a C rank Pokemon, and about on par with a lot of the B- mons (maybe higher honestly, but I haven't played with the mon enough to know). It's a mon that has access to STAB Pursuit + Tspikes and checks several big meta-relevant Pokemon (Sigilyph / Sceptile / SubCM Uxie / Lilligant / Rotom / Jynx / Slowking) while also absorbing Toxic Spikes. Sure, the mon is stupidly weak and has struggles breaking through bulkier stuff, but the usefulness of STAB Pursuit on a mon with a good Speed tier (95 speed is quite respectable in this tier) and decent bulk + typing cannot be underestimated. The mon's CB (maybe Scarf too, but this could be troll) set is probably enough to make this mon relevant enough for B-, since I think B- mons are kinda bad but have pretty neat niches that are relevant to the current meta so maybe they're ok on some teams.
 
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Molk

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I'll probably draft up a rough list of stuff from the lower ranks that should stay + maybe add some mons that are missing from it. Honestly I feel like the distinctions between C+ C and C- are pretty irrelevant since the mons all kinda suck, so it'd probably be better to just have a single C and a single D tier. There's also a few changes that I've been considering that might be worth looking into (Uxie from A- -> A, Samurott B- -> B, some others) but if I feel strongly enough about them I will argue for them later probably.
I decided to go through all the Pokemon in C/D rank myself yesterday and added my personal opinion on what Pokemon i think should probably stay and be removed, col49 and Spirit helped me out with the list a bit too! Would you mind letting me know your thoughts on it?

C+

Altaria: I'd probably keep this, its low offenses hurt it but it's somewhat versatile and its Dragon/Flying typing and ability go a long way (for example, it has nothing to fear from alomomola really, access to decent bulk and heal bell is a neat bonus

Cacturne: Once again, a Pokemon i think i'd keep. Spikes, a very strong Sucker Punch, and its set of resistances/immunities go a long way here.

Charizard: I think i'd keep this as well, it requires Rapid Spin support to function effectively but it's an absolute monster on Sun teams and Swords Dance+Flying Gem is pretty interesting even outside of it. Has a neat Speed tier too which lets it naturally outspeed common threats such as Sigilyph, Lilligant, and Moltres.

Crawdaunt: RU by usage so i guess we have to keep it, even if it wasn't RU by usage i'd suggest keeping it anyway honestly, it has some pretty solid wallbreaking potential and when i played the meta actively august put in some major work with Substitute+DD Crawdaunt in particular.

Dragonair: Ehhhhh.... I can see DD+Shedrest functioning with Mag support but it seems tough to set up, i think i'd probably drop this unless it's gotten some recent success

Duosion: I'd probably drop it for now, it's overshadowed by the other Psychic-types in RU such as Sigilyph (does the sort of CM+Magic Guard thing a bit better overall in my opinion, is significantly faster too which makes it more useful against more aggressive teams) and Slowking (overall better at stuff like OTR imo).

Eelektross: I think i'd probably keep this? It's an all around decent Pokemon but i'm not 100% sure how it fits into the metagame really, and struggling with Druddigon is never a good thing, although Dragon Claw might help out.

Gardevoir: I'd probably keep Gardevoir, it has quite a bit of offensive presence and Healing Wish is a really awesome move to have. Trace is really neat too for stealing things such as Regenerator.

Gurdurr: Keep almost 100%. Performed its job as a bulky fighting-type pretty effectively when i was active.

Hitmonchan: RU by usage so it has to stay, i've never really been a big fan of it personally but i can understand why other people might want to use it.

Mandibuzz: I'd probably keep this, It's one of the best answers to Sceptile in BW RU and it does a good job of being an overall fat Pokemon, Taunt and Whirlwind are pretty neat too.

Pinsir: I'm not sure honestly, It seems pretty overshadowed by Durant and Scolipede to me, i'd probably ditch it or move it lower down on the rankings.

Primeape: No strong opinion, Vital Spirit, Encore, and U-turn are cool i guess

Shiftry: I'd probably keep it, like Cacturne it has a neat set of resistances and a somewhat strong Sucker Punch, but it sacrifices Water Absorb and Spikes for Nature Power (always EQ for those who haven't played BW) and a significant amount of speed.

Zweilous: I think i'd get rid of it, the secondary Dark-type is nice, but i think it's just too overshadowed by Druddigon overall to be worth using.

C

Electivire: RU by usage so it has to stay, never been a fan though.

Kadabra: I think this might have enough of a niche to stay, it has Encore over Sigilyph at least.

Quagsire: RU by usage, regardless, it prolly has a small niche due to Unaware and its defensive typing. It trades SR and Water Absorb for Unaware and Recover with Seismitoad

Rotom-S: I honestly have no strong opinion on Rotom-S but 49 mentioned that he could see it being workable on offense.

Swanna: No strong opinion, i'd probably get rid of it.

Victreebel: definitely keep in my opinion, it's just that threatening under sun that i think it's worth mentioning.

C-

Arbok: Get rid of it, Coil might be half workable but i don't really know *why* i'd use this.

Basculin: I'd take this off the list

Butterfree: I've played against SilentVerse enough to know that this thing is legitimately workable, keep.

Camerupt: I think i'd say keep for this, it sets up rocks and performs well against a few Pokemon such as Escavalier, Magneton, Rotom, Manectric, and Accelgor.

Gabite: I don't really see much of a reason to use this, i'd suggest removing it.

Lickilicky: I'm not sure honestly, probably get rid of it

Liepard: No strong opinion, Assist is workable though maybe?

Murkrow: Honestly, just a bit ago i was thinking that this thing might be worth a second look, it has decent offensive presence, priority in Sucker Punch, and Prankster Thunder Wave. The latter seems especially neat in a meta such as BW RU where a lot of teams are very aggressive.

Relicanth: I don't know if there's a real reason to use this, if anyone's had success with it though, speak up.

Sandslash: RU by usage so it's gonna have to stay, regardless, although it has a bit of a bad reputation it's probably more workable than a lot of people (including me) gave it credit for.

Scraggy: I'm a bit torn, on one hand it absolutely dismantles certain defensive builds (think augstall and teams similar to it) on the other hand, i don't know if it's good enough outside of its matchup against those builds to be worth a teamslot on a serious team.

Vigoroth: No strong opinion, probably remove

Volbeat, Might be worth keeping due to its support capabilities as a rain setter?

Weezing: Possibly the best Pokemon in this rank. It's pretty good at taking hits from Pokemon such as Golurk, Escavalier, Scolipede, Rhydon, Steelix, and some variations of Durant, if anything i'd consider moving it up.

Whimsicott: RU by usage, decent support potential i guess.

D+

Ditto: I'm not sure, maybe keep?

Flareon: Ehhhhh.... I'm not sure what to say about this one. It has some decent special bulk and access to Wish, but its weakness to SR *really* impedes its ability to function effectively as a defensive Pokemon in my opinion and makes it even easier to pressure than most other Pokemon that rely on Wish for recovery.

Leafeon: Might be worth keeping actually, SD Pass seems interesting.

Linoone: This thing can actually put some work in when supported properly, whether this stays or not is a matter of whether you guys think the support required is worth the payoff

Marowak: Meh, i can see this thing being a decent Trick Room Pokemon, but i think there are quite a few Pokemon i'd consider on those kinds of teams as TR Abusers before Marowak. Think Aggron and Druddigon.

Muk: I can see Muk being worth keeping, if nothing else, it's a dang good answer to Lilligant and special variations of Sceptile, '

Riolu: Definitely keep, Copycat+Roar is a meme, but it's a meme that's actually somewhat effective, this thing can do quite a bit of damage when it gets set up.

Serperior: No strong opinions, i feel like it's somewhat overshadowed by both Sceptile and Lilligant in offensive roles at least though, so stuff like Glare/Screens/etc are where it stands out most.

Simipour: Probably worth keeping, much better initial speed than other Special Water-types in RU such as say, Omastar and Samurott, which is pretty neato.

Skuntank: No strong opinion.

Torkoal: I'd probably get rid of this, i'm not sure why i'd use Torkoal in RU really :/.

D-

Articuno: I don't think this is particularly worth keeping, but if anyone's had success with it speak up.

Audino: If there's anything playing against Alomomola has taught me, it's that Wish+Regenerator is absolutely amazing. I think Audino's worth keeping.

Golem: I don't think Golem's super worth keeping, the only real niches it has are Sturdy and Sucker Punch and i'd personally use Rhydon over it almost all of the time.

Gorebyss: It's really hard to justify using this over Omastar, i guess being a mono Water-type means it's not weak to Ground- and Fighting-type moves and also means it's only 2x weak to Grass-type moves which could give it opportunities to set up where Omastar couldn't?

Natu: I'd probably keep this, i've seen it used effectively in the past on a very specific team.

Ninjask: Passing Speed Boosts is a noticeable enough niche to keep this thing most likely, although it's not that great.

Rapidash: Meh, it can prevent Slowking from switching in easily due to Megahorn i guess, but it tends to be really fragile due to its frailty, low base HP, SR weakness, and reliance on recoil moves, idk if it's worth keeping

Shedinja: Can be used as an effective pivot and even win condition when supported properly, i'll give it a pass.

Shelgon: Probably remove it.

Swoobat: I don't see a reason to keep this really.

Vileplume: No strong opinion

Dusknoir: RU by usage, regardless, this thing is horrible


Alongside all of this, i'd suggest adding Sawk somewhere on the list, it seems like a pretty overshadowed mon at first but i think being a super hard hitting Pokemon with Sturdy is a notable enough niche to warrant a spot, i've seen it used effectively on at least one team too.

I don't have a strong opinion on merging the subranks by the way.
 
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