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Resource RU Viability Ranking Thread: Abomasnow and Slowking Discussion

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On a Dragon Dance set, running 0 speed seems like a horrible idea. Without speed, +1 Scrafty with 0 speed reaches 228, one point below Adamant Emboar. Without attack, Scrafty is weak af. See:
+1 252 Atk Scrafty High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Clawitzer: 276-325 (97.5 - 114.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
+1 0 Atk Scrafty High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Clawitzer: 213-252 (75.2 - 89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
That's not even counting for the fact that it seems you would be running Drain Punch over High Jump Kick. You definitely want max speed and attack on DD Scrafty as without it becomes way less of a sweeper and easier to revenge be kill.
 
I get it, maybe on a different, more defensive set, drain punch might be more usable than High Jump Kick (cause the ungodly recoil damage if you miss, and on a defensive set, losing HP is a no-no)
 
lighthouses said:
I don't think running a deffensive set is worth it, but thats just me though
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Agreed

As for the previous discussion on Swanna, I totally think it deserves a rank, probably somewhere in the C+ / B- region, 98 base speed is incredibly useful in RU, and so is an offensive check to Cobalion (watch for VS though). Its typing is excellent defensively, which gives it more room to fire off Hurricane / Scald in spite of its rather mediocre bulk, it also can kinda fuck over some BO, or more passive Balance teams due to the fact that it is faster and has haxy ass STABs, and really good neutral coverage with just its STAB moves alone.
 
removed noivern and reuniclus b/c banned

try to avoid posting about new rankings till the ladder is at least updated, i.e. "NOIVERN GONE SCRAFTY FOR S" can wait etc

I'll work on updating the list with the council and come back within the next week or so
 
Updates:

Jellicent up to S Rank
Scrafty up to S Rank
Sigilyph up to A-
Hitmonlee down to to A-
Virizion up to A+
Meloetta up to A+
Houndoom up to A
Emboar up to A
Tangrowth up to A-
Braviary up to B+
Gallade up to B+
Malamar up to B-
Spiritomb down to B
Musharna up to B-

**Note: not all the updates were as a result of the bans, some were moved up and down according to recent metagame shifts as well.
 
Spirit said:
Updates:

Jellicent up to S Rank
Scrafty up to S Rank
Sigilyph up to A-
Hitmonlee down to to A-
Virizion up to A+
Meloetta up to A+
Houndoom up to A
Emboar up to A
Tangrowth up to A-
Braviary up to B+
Gallade up to B+
Malamar up to B-
Spiritomb down to B
Musharna up to B-

**Note: not all the updates were as a result of the bans, some were moved up and down according to recent metagame shifts as well.
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Thanks for the rise of Musharna, this thing truly became a threat and i might even want to push it even further.
Musharna is bulkier than Reuniclus, and packs Recovery as well, through worse because of PP & eventually weather. ( It isn't really relevant since Abomasnow isn't in the tier anymore, and Sun's the better weather probably )
Musharna usually acts as a CM user with Baton Pass, & Kee Berry or Lefties as the item. It is indeed more vulnerable to statut than Reuniclus due to the lack of Magic Guard, but can pass CMs or slow switch with Baton Pass. Musharna is also way weaker than Reuniclus, resulting in Musharna being one sided compared to Reuniclus ( Meloetta or Sigilyph are usually preferable for a more offensive Psychic Type )
I'm not exactly sure myself as i haven't done enough testing with it, so:

Should Musharna move up to B Rank or is it fine in B- Rank?
 
My name speaks the truth. Scrafty Is The Best!!!

Anyways, to make this post somewhat relevant, may I please ask why Sandslash is still in C+ Rank? Because as far as I'm concerned, I don't see what it really does anymore. Back then, Sandslash had some merit because it was a spinner that could defeat Doublade. However, Doublade isn't a thing anymore, and Sandslash is now outclassed by Flygon as a hazard remover. Flygon is immune to Spikes and Toxic Spikes and resists Rocks so it doesn't give two shits about the hazards it intends to remove, and it doesn't have Ghosts to stop it from removing hazards since it uses Defog. Furthermore, Flygon has U-turn to obtain momentum and Roost to keep itself healthy, much like Gligar before it. Flygon can do everything Sandslash does but better. When you look at Sandslash on the other hand, it doesn't have reliable recovery so it will quickly fall to repeated attacks and entry hazards before it can spin effectively. At most, it effectively has one chance to spin. I guess it still defeats Spiritomb but it did that in BW and that didn't save it from being a terrible Pokemon. It can take on most hazard setters, but so can Hitmonlee, and Hitmonlee is faster and has a nuke power STAB to wallbreak as a bonus. I guess it can defeat Jellicent with Knock Off, but so can Hitmonlee and to an extent Kabutops, so that isn't really much of a feat to cheer for. While Sandslash has merits in doing a few things like beating Mega Steelix, it's so easy to pressure as it's slow and doesn't have reliable recovery, so many top threats will outspeed it and hurt it before it can react. I know somewhat bulkier Pokemon aren't meant to be speedy, but this frankly is a Pokemon that needs to be faster. It also has really poor special bulk, meaning it will crumble before things Seismitoad, Rotom-C, Jellicent, and many special attackers in the tier.

I just can't see why Sandslash is worth using anymore. Doublade is gone, and Flygon exists as a Pokemon that will often prove superior where Sandslash is supposed to perform. It also has many of the same problems that plagued in in BW, so I don't see why it should be as high as C+, and I think it should drop, though I don't know where.
 
I indeed see a hard time with sandslash having anymore relevancy. I mean I guess slash would fit more on a balanced team. the thing is I just see him not spinning on anything with as minor punishment as flygon. flying has the recovery, the typing, and the power over him. though I don't think sandslash is completely useless because he still has the tools to spin on what it needs to, and can even toxic ghosts, and run knock off as an option.
 
Honestly, Sandslash was always outclassed by like everything decent (Claydol could also beat Doublade but we all know why Claydol was awful - Doublade was a single threat in a huge, expansive metagame) except on incredibly specific teams that needed to compress absolutely everything Sandslash had into one slot. It was always incredibly niche in its role. It also doesn't beat Jellicent (unless you're running attack and speed and a life orb and even then you either need rocks or a high roll, not exactly a great 1 v 1 situation).

That being said, Defog does not outclass Rapid Spin because Rapid Spin lets you run a more aggressive hazard stack of your own, it should totally drop but your reasoning isn't on point in my opinion because Defog and Rapid Spin are entirely different moves and only function remotely similar if your team is *only* using Stealth Rocks as a hazard, which is also something Sandslash can provide that Lee can't. It's just that it's never been particularly useful in theory or execution and with Doublade gone there's absolutely no reason to keep pretending it was ever good.

In my opinion, either C- or Unranked. I can't really imagine using it at all anymore but I feel that way about most of the C-tier in general.
 
Sandslash certainly have some perks like the ability to compress roles, having stealth rock + rapid spin on the same mon and being able to pull it off thanks to only needing knock off + earthquake is pretty notable and it work in a select number of teams, lately is the spinner that I had the easier pairing with fletchinder actually but maybe thats just me. I dont think it is fair to compare flygon and sandslash when rapid spin is easily more useful to keep up your hazards (if only using stealth rock, use defog) like spikes. It certainly has fallen from grace and is not so attractive anymore with doublade gone and it can be even more difficult to fit on teams, even more kabutops but putting on unranked is incredibly unfair. I certainly could see it dropping but not more than C or C-.

Also, jellicent is solidly 2hko´d by knock off (adamant) after rocks and need mininal speed investment to outspeed 44 speed jellicent o.o Unless Im missing something here Yep, I definitely missed something, calced on a SpDef variant and forgot that knock off has 65 base power with no item, typical. My bad, my bad.

Even then, jellicent cant deal too comfortably with it tbh. And given what I already said I dont agree with sandslash going unranked at all.
 
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I'd like to Nominate Lilligant to C-. Lilligant is a Pokémon that can sweep through a significant portion of the metagame, having access to a 120 base power STAB move in Petal Dance, which has no drawback at all thanks to Own Tempo. It has Sleep Powder and Quiver dance to boost itself further, and can tear down even the most fearsome walls.

+2 252 SpA Lilligant Petal Dance vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Camerupt: 441-520 (128.1 - 151.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 SpA Lilligant Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cobalion: 306-360 (94.7 - 111.4%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

+2 252 SpA Lilligant Petal Dance vs. 252 HP / 212+ SpD Jellicent: 504-594 (124.7 - 147%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 SpA Lilligant Petal Dance vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Scrafty: 309-364 (114 - 134.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 SpA Lilligant Petal Dance vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Flygon: 417-492 (138.5 - 163.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 SpA Lilligant Petal Dance vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Flygon: 420-495 (115.3 - 135.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
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thegrovylekid said:
I'd like to Nominate Lilligant to C-. Lilligant is a Pokémon that can sweep through a significant portion of the metagame, having access to a 120 base power STAB move in Petal Dance, which has no drawback at all thanks to Own Tempo. It has Sleep Powder and Quiver dance to boost itself further, and can tear down even the most fearsome walls.

+2 252 SpA Lilligant Petal Dance vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Camerupt: 441-520 (128.1 - 151.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 SpA Lilligant Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cobalion: 306-360 (94.7 - 111.4%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

+2 252 SpA Lilligant Petal Dance vs. 252 HP / 212+ SpD Jellicent: 504-594 (124.7 - 147%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 SpA Lilligant Petal Dance vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Scrafty: 309-364 (114 - 134.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 SpA Lilligant Petal Dance vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Flygon: 417-492 (138.5 - 163.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 SpA Lilligant Petal Dance vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Flygon: 420-495 (115.3 - 135.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
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The drawback about Petal Dance is that Lilligant will be locked into the move, meaning it creates switch-in and even set-up opportunities for any Pokémon resisting Grass-type moves, e.g. Cobalion, Virizion, Emboar and Fletchinder. There's probably more.

You also have the wrong calc for Camerupt, as only Mega Camerupt is relevant in RU (and no one would switch their base Camerupt into Lilligant, anyway), so the calc is as follows:

+2 252 SpA Lilligant Petal Dance vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Camerupt: 334-394 (97 - 114.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

Your calcs are all taken at +2, too. Granted, Lilligant can use Sleep Powder to create set-up opportunities for itself, but Sleep Powder is rather inaccurate and chances are you won't always get to +2, making your calcs rather unreliable.
 
Kyuzeth said:
The drawback about Petal Dance is that Lilligant will be locked into the move, meaning it creates switch-in and even set-up opportunities for any Pokémon resisting Grass-type moves, e.g. Cobalion, Virizion, Emboar and Fletchinder. There's probably more.

You also have the wrong calc for Camerupt, as only Mega Camerupt is relevant in RU (and no one would switch their base Camerupt into Lilligant, anyway), so the calc is as follows:

+2 252 SpA Lilligant Petal Dance vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Camerupt: 334-394 (97 - 114.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

Your calcs are all taken at +2, too. Granted, Lilligant can use Sleep Powder to create set-up opportunities for itself, but Sleep Powder is rather inaccurate and chances are you won't always get to +2, making your calcs rather unreliable.
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I agree 100%. Petal Dance locks yourself into a move and Max Hp Sp Def Escalvier is immune to sleep powder thanks to it's overcoat ability and 4x resist grass. And even with no attack invested in can ohko Lilligant with megahorn. If Lilligant isn't running Hp Fire, Escalvier will be trouble for Lilligant. Therofre, i don't think it should move up.

CALCS:

+1 252 SpA Lilligant Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Escavalier: 244-288 (70.9 - 83.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
They will most likely go for sleep powder or Quiver Dnace. If you come in on a quiver dance you can wack them with a megahorn

0 Atk Escavalier Megahorn vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Lilligant: 422-500 (149.6 - 177.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 252 SpA Lilligant Hidden Power Flying vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Escavalier: 61-72 (17.7 - 20.9%) -- possible 5HKO

+1 252 SpA Lilligant Hidden Power Rock vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Escavalier: 62-73 (18 - 21.2%) -- possible 5HKO

so yh thats basically why Lilligant shouldn't move up as there is much more better special attackers than it (not saying its bad, just outclassed by other special attackers.)
 
Cofagrigus to at least B+ rank.

I don't even understand why it is such a low rank. It has massive bulk. It has access to Magic Coat, Will-O-Wisp with STAB Hex, and Pain Split. It just lacks RELIABLE recovery. Is there something setting it down?
 
Stardust Dragon said:
Cofagrigus to at least B+ rank.

I don't even understand why it is such a low rank. It has massive bulk. It has access to Magic Coat, Will-O-Wisp with STAB Hex, and Pain Split. It just lacks RELIABLE recovery. Is there something setting it down?
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Quite a lot, actually. The first problem is that Dark-types run rampant in RU; Scrafty and Houndoom are some of the best and most common Pokémon in RU and they can effortlessly deal with Cofagrigus. Second problem is that Meloetta, another common and great Pokémon, uses Cofagrigus as set-up bait. Thirdly, both Spiritomb (an above-average Pokémon in the tier) and Jellicent (a top-tier threat) do so much more than Cofagrigus. Jellicent even has somewhat comparable bulk, but instead of just defenses, Jellicent has large HP + great Special Defense, as well as Will-O-Wisp to take physical hits better. Spiritomb has more utility, in that it can spread status and Pursuit trap annoying Psychic- and Ghost-types.

Cofagrigus's main niche is offensive Trick Room, I think, which warrants its use on some teams, but not many. It just doesn't do much compared to some other Ghosts in the tier and the metagame is not kind to it. Keep Cofagrigus in C+.
 
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to A rank:

Simply put it delphox is one of the most threatening pokemon in the meta being able to pull it's weight vs every playstyle depending on the set. All-out-attacker life orb variants with dual stab and 2 coverage moves threaten balance and stall with delphox's good coverage being able to hit a wide range of threats for super effective damage and it can also fair well vs offense with a base 104 speed which is only outsped by 6 relevant non scarfed pokes (virizion, cobalion, durant, accelgor, jolteon, sneasel, and dugtrio being the only relevant things that naturally outspeed it.) The scarf set doesn't do well vs balance but it does best vs offense and it can revenge virizion and cobalion 2 very threatening to offense. It can even revenge kill non roseli berry scrafty with dazzling gleam if you really want to. Calm mind sets are weapons vs stall and balance being able to wallbreak very effectively and still dies work vs fast teams. Another perk is unlike other wallbreakers it has a decent defensive typing resisting fighting, grass, fairy, fire, steel, ice, and psychic all of which are relevant and ice shards from glalie, mach punches from Lee won't stop it. Dugtrio and houndoom not being as common is also good but you can run hidden power ground for houndoom and it also hits opposing delphox. It has flaws such as pursuit and sucker punch weakness, a stealth rock weakness and physical fraility but the pros of delphox outweigh it's cons. For these reasons I nominate delphox to A rank.
 
Guidorealmsmc said:
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to A rank:

Simply put it delphox is one of the most threatening pokemon in the meta being able to pull it's weight vs every playstyle depending on the set. All-out-attacker life orb variants with dual stab and 2 coverage moves threaten balance and stall with delphox's good coverage being able to hit a wide range of threats for super effective damage and it can also fair well vs offense with a base 104 speed which is only outsped by 6 relevant non scarfed pokes (virizion, cobalion, durant, accelgor, jolteon, sneasel, and dugtrio being the only relevant things that naturally outspeed it.) The scarf set doesn't do well vs balance but it does best vs offense and it can revenge virizion and cobalion 2 very threatening to offense. It can even revenge kill non roseli berry scrafty with dazzling gleam if you really want to. Calm mind sets are weapons vs stall and balance being able to wallbreak very effectively and still dies work vs fast teams. Another perk is unlike other wallbreakers it has a decent defensive typing resisting fighting, grass, fairy, fire, steel, ice, and psychic all of which are relevant and ice shards from glalie, mach punches from Lee won't stop it. Dugtrio and houndoom not being as common is also good but you can run hidden power ground for houndoom and it also hits opposing delphox. It has flaws such as pursuit and sucker punch weakness, a stealth rock weakness and physical fraility but the pros of delphox outweigh it's cons. For these reasons I nominate delphox to A rank.
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This seems too high a bump in rank for a Pokemon that both competes with and is set back by Houndoom.

Delphox has more notable flaws than its numerous competition (much less its own flaws, such as hazard weakness, Pursuit weakness, and even priority weakness). Houndoom has better neutral STAB (it doesn't need coverage), a more dangerous boosting move in Nasty Plot, and its mixed set offers significant amounts of utility. Sigilyph has the same boosting move plus all the coverage Delphox has, but Sigilyph eclipses Delphox in terms of survivability thanks to Magic Guard + Roost, while not sacrificing much, if any, offensive potential in return. There is also Meloetta, which offers versatility up the wazoo. Outspeeding base 100s, most notably Mega Glalie, is a nice perk Delphox has over its competition, but its inability to outspeed the really important threats, namely Cobalion, Durant, and Virizion, means that its Speed advantage isn't really that notable.

I for one would definitely not rank Delphox above Sigilyph, in any case.
 
Delphox is a decently powerful Choice Scarf user that can switch into Cobalion and revenge kill Scrafty with Dazzling Gleam and have utility vs fatter teams with Switcheroo, also Psychic is a decent stab to have and when in Blaze range it becomes deceptively strong. I guess I can see it in A- but i dont feel strongly about it.
 
Delphox: This thing certainly isn't A rank in the current meta. It's slower than Cobalion w/o a Scarf, absolutely needs Dazzling Gleam to keep Scrafty from forcing it out, and is complete bait to Houndoom, one of the top Pokemon in the tier. Now, this isn't a terrible thing that it absolutely needs Dazzling Gleam for Scrafty. In fact, it's a pretty fun option right now. I've been toying around with the CM set and using Gleam over GKnot and Psychic over Psyshock (to avoid getting insta-boned by Rhyperior while still 2HKOing Quag ez) I really don't see the point in Specs with the current meta considering CM LO often has enough wallbreaking power on its own, but with the ability to change moves and sweep slower teams with a boost. Another thing to consider is Colbur Berry + Gleam on the CM set as that can act as a p. neat lure for Spiritomb and any weakened Houndoom suddenly can't pick you off if you're high enough HP. I can maybe see Delphox in A- rank, but certainly no higher than that given the current state of the meta and what it has to deal with.

Oh, and Lilligant and Cofagrigus can stay in their ranks for reasons already stated imo.
 
Why exactly is Mega Audino so high on the viability ranking? Looking at the stuff in B+, I don't see at all how its on the same level as Delphox, Exploud, Braviary, Uxie or Drapion. It's typing has never been good imo, normal fairy means it loses its fighting resist, something that makes other fairies like Aromatisse and Togetic so valuable to this tier. The CM sets are taunt bait, the offensive sets just seem too weak. Regular Audino is just normal typing as well, so switching in before getting a chance to mega evolve is a no no. It has no reliable recovery outside of Wish and Rest, and cannot hold Leftovers. Aromatisse has to depend on Wish too but Aromatisse also cannot be Taunted as well as has a decent 99 special attack+Moonblast that hits decently hard even uninvested. I'm not saying it has no niche in this tier but B+ just feels way too high for it. B seems like a better place.
 
i agreed on PS and I agree now

let's talk about CroCM. What does it really do, or beat, tbh. it just seems like a somewhat ghetto wincon that has some defensive utility, but with being forced to rest, not even that much. i guess it could win in some situations, but it doesn't seem that great

support is o.k. but it's just kind of a special wall that can't hit stuff back, i'd rather use aromatisse in this slot for a good few reasons, especially taking on Virizion better, taunt immunity to help against Jellicent, etc

i hear offensive is cool but it's still a tad weak and slow if i'm not wrong. if people really like offensive then maybe that's why it deserves b+ but, eh.

overall i'd drop it, the other stuff in b+ seems better. Except drapion, who may be due a drop himself to be honest (loses to Mlix Cobal Scrafty, no longer has reuniclus to be good against)
 
Totally for Maudino dropping since I've never liked it and I'm not sure why I would use the lure set over like, Mesprit to be totally honest (entirely different coverage but I can still use Megalix). It was cool when Megarupt sucked less but now I don't need Surf at all and, you know, Togetic has the same special attack, coverage, and only a little less speed and also sucks less against common metagame threats. I know the whole appeal of Maudino is the coverage + Healing Wish but I don't think that's a B+ set, CroCM is absolute garbage with Megalix and Cobalion being so good, Wish + CM doesn't seem very good when Aromatisse has already existed forever, support is also outclassed by Aromatisse and probably Togetic or even Clefairy, it just isn't a particularly worthwhile mon in my opinion. Regenerator pre-mega would be cool if CroCM checked anything except like maybe Drapion before mega evolving.

Sort of disagree with Drapion dropping, Toxic Spikes + Swords Dance is still a beast that can lay down t-spikes and pressures Cobalion, who has to use Swords Dance + Close Combat to switch in and kill most Drapion, which is a clean lose against bulky sets for standard Sub SD Cobalion if you earthquake both turns, since 160 hp can't be KO'd by a +2 Close Combat without some prior damage. It does sort of suck against Scrafty and Megalix though, but I still think it offers a lot more than anything in B except maybe Tomb. Drapion also has other sets but I don't like any other sets it has. The spread I've been using is 168 HP/236 attack/104 speed, which hits a useful HP (220 attack Cobalion can't KO with SD ever) and Speed benchmark (adamant Emboar, sort of rare now but whatever) with a lot of attack, but you can also run whatever you want because Drapion has good bulk and good speed but not good enough to really justify max investment in either imo, which is it's main flaw.

Delphox is cool I guess but I can't say that dropping any of it's coverage for Dazzling Gleam is nice, since you also kind of want HP Water in that slot for reasons we all sort of know and also Grass Knot, also for reasons we all know. I do think that SubCM (both leftovers and salac) is sort of overlooked but it might just be because I love sub cm (Flamethrower and Grass Knot or HP Water as coverage, seriously, try HP Water delphox). Delphox has a pretty good speed tier and, while being outsped by Cobalion sucks, it's not like Cobalion wants to switch in on you, even to revenge. I don't agree with A, but I'd be fine with A- or with it staying in B+. Colbur sets are cool because Delphox is questionable defensively and will suddenly be in Blaze range unless you just die because hazards weak + low phys def. I keep seeing the phys def set on the ladder, though, and please stop using that.

EDIT: My sentences don't make any sense so I made them more better.
 
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