how is abomasnow getting to +2 i dont think it gets swords dance does it
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Resource RU Viability Ranking
- Thread starter DTC
- Start date
- Status
It does lol
I know nothing about Abomasnow but I don't really think SD would be that great of a set. It's slow (but this is sort of remedied by Ice Shard), has an awful defensive typing, and Wood Hammer gets recoil. Also, it is weak to Stealth Rock and vulnerable to Spikes so it would get worn down really fast. It has 7 weaknesses and only 4 resists (though they are good). While its bulk is good, needing a turn to set up AND having an SR weakness AND always moving last AND taking recoil damage from Wood Hammer kind of sucks.
Why are you gonna use normal Aboma over regular? You are trading a lot of bulk and power for a little more speed, which is not worth it. The only reason I could ever see you using normal Aboma is if you already have Mega Bannette, which in that case there are still lots of other pokes I'd want to use over him. Maybe D, but idk, he seems not worth it to me
Most likely because of passive recovery with leftovers or it can hold Icy Rock for hail teams.
Alright, update time.
These are the changes i've made this time around:
Alongside this, i'd like some more discussion on the position of Bronzong
Also, new rule, if you're nominating a new Pokemon to be in the thread, i'd like to see some replays of it in action posted.
These are the changes i've made this time around:
Shuckle up to S
Sceptile down to B+
Heliolisk down to B
Exploud up to A-
Aromatisse up to A
Fletchinder up to B+
Meloetta up to A
Braviary up to A-
Archeops added to C
Slurpuff down to B
Sceptile down to B+
Heliolisk down to B
Exploud up to A-
Aromatisse up to A
Fletchinder up to B+
Meloetta up to A
Braviary up to A-
Archeops added to C
Slurpuff down to B
Alongside this, i'd like some more discussion on the position of Bronzong
Also, new rule, if you're nominating a new Pokemon to be in the thread, i'd like to see some replays of it in action posted.
I should have mentioned this (I'm on my phone since my computer is retarded) and there is a reason to why I said D/C- rank. I'm not saying it is fantastic by any means, but it has a niche with Lefties and synthesis (soundproof>snow warning for physical sets) stopping specs yanmega and exploud locked into Boomburst or bug buzz from breaking your team.
Edit: molk rule
Personally I think 'Zong is just as viable as Registeel. It checks a lot of different stuff that Registeel can't, like Gallade, Rhyperior, Virizion, Cobalion, and more. It also is less setup bait with it's higher attack and usually high powered gyro ball. It does lose to stuff like Sharpedo and Shiftry and has worse bulk but I think it's better abbility and the fighting neutrality gives it some advantages to differentiate itself from 'Steel
Also, going back to regular Aboma, lefties recovery is absolete when you can just get much better bulk with its mega. And hail teams are lol
Also, going back to regular Aboma, lefties recovery is absolete when you can just get much better bulk with its mega. And hail teams are lol
The extra speed is much more useful on SD sets, since it lets you outspeed crucial stuff instead of getting outsped and statused or something. Lefties also helps offset Wood Hammer recoil, which lets Aboma last longer overall, which makes regular Abomasnow arguably better at using Swords Dance based sets. The extra Speed and Lefties also comes into play on SubSeed sets, since it allows Abomasnow to get up a sub without getting statused first, and Lefties help heal back damage from making Substitutes, which makes SubSeed more effective. Whether or not SD or SubSeed Aboma is actually good or not is something that is probably debatable, but there are definite reasons to use regular Aboma over its Mega version lol.
I personally believe that Bronzong should not move down. Not only is it a good SR setter and wall, but it is also a very underrated Screens setter. I have personally played with the Screens set and it has worked wonderfully for me. One might think it is outclassed by Uxie or Cresselia as a Screens user, but the extra resistances, ability to set up SR, and (if you really want to) the ability to Explode to bring in a threat unharmed gives it a legitimate niche. I would say it is about on-par with Uxie, considering they both have screens, Stealth Rock, both are walls, both have Psychic typing, and a self-sacrificing move (Uxie, Memento. Bronzong, Explosion). Bronzong has resistances, while Uxie can U-turn. I would personally put them in the same rank. So yeah, Bronzong for B tier.
Just a minor nitpick,
I would place Bronzong in B+. But only one of its sets actually gets it there, and sadly it's a set that (according to ladder statistics) only appears on less than one out of every ten Bronzongs.
Screens is pretty bad, in my opinion, mostly because Bronzong is majorly outclassed by both Meowstic and Cresselia in that role. The former has uber-helpful priority on its screens plus a really nice Prankster Thunder Wave, whereas the latter is literally the bulkiest Pokemon in the tier and is therefore almost guaranteed to be able to get up screens at some point, even against a relentless HO team or something.
As far as Bronzong is as a stand-alone Rocks setter, it's even worse. There are a ton of really really great SR setters in RU right now and Bronzong simply can't match the utility value of them. It's competing with Rhyperior, Shuckle, Cobalion, Druddigon, Gligar, Registeel, so on... there's no reason to run Bronzong for the primary reason of being an SR setter because all of the other Pokemon aren't complete death fodder after rocks have gone up.
However, the role where Bronzong stands out is Trick Room (specifically as a lead). On Trick Room teams, it's extremely efficient to carry Bronzong because you get three things you really need in one Pokemon—(a) a bulky Pokemon to reliably set up Trick Room, (b) Stealth Rock, and (c) a surprisingly offensive tank that outspeeds almost everything. Gyro Ball is a seriously painful attack and Explosion is great to safely bring in TR sweepers without wasting turns or momentum, which really separates it from Uxie (and makes it better, in my opinion). Uxie's kind of offensively useless after it gets up both TR and SR, but Bronzong can actually be legitimately threatening, and I think it's one of the best choices for a Trick Room team right now. Therefore I think it should be B+: it has a legitimate, useful, and successful niche that nothing else can really fill, but only on Trick Room teams.
TL;DR: Screens sucks. Standard SR sucks. TR is good enough to make it B+, but it should be the only set considered for that position.
Also wtf according to the ladder statistics nobody runs focus sash or mental herb or anything useful like that
Screens is pretty bad, in my opinion, mostly because Bronzong is majorly outclassed by both Meowstic and Cresselia in that role. The former has uber-helpful priority on its screens plus a really nice Prankster Thunder Wave, whereas the latter is literally the bulkiest Pokemon in the tier and is therefore almost guaranteed to be able to get up screens at some point, even against a relentless HO team or something.
As far as Bronzong is as a stand-alone Rocks setter, it's even worse. There are a ton of really really great SR setters in RU right now and Bronzong simply can't match the utility value of them. It's competing with Rhyperior, Shuckle, Cobalion, Druddigon, Gligar, Registeel, so on... there's no reason to run Bronzong for the primary reason of being an SR setter because all of the other Pokemon aren't complete death fodder after rocks have gone up.
However, the role where Bronzong stands out is Trick Room (specifically as a lead). On Trick Room teams, it's extremely efficient to carry Bronzong because you get three things you really need in one Pokemon—(a) a bulky Pokemon to reliably set up Trick Room, (b) Stealth Rock, and (c) a surprisingly offensive tank that outspeeds almost everything. Gyro Ball is a seriously painful attack and Explosion is great to safely bring in TR sweepers without wasting turns or momentum, which really separates it from Uxie (and makes it better, in my opinion). Uxie's kind of offensively useless after it gets up both TR and SR, but Bronzong can actually be legitimately threatening, and I think it's one of the best choices for a Trick Room team right now. Therefore I think it should be B+: it has a legitimate, useful, and successful niche that nothing else can really fill, but only on Trick Room teams.
TL;DR: Screens sucks. Standard SR sucks. TR is good enough to make it B+, but it should be the only set considered for that position.
Also wtf according to the ladder statistics nobody runs focus sash or mental herb or anything useful like that
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Uxie has Memento, however, allowing for set-up sweepers to come in. However Bronzong is far more superior when it comes to TR support
Bronzong offers little team support if it's not using dual screens or being utilized as a TR setter. In most matches the game is essentially 5 vs. 6 if you're using a Bronzong. This even applies when it's being used in the aforementioned roles. Mostly because Bronzong can't do much outside of setting screens or setting up Trick Room. It's definitely to slow to eliminate its counters and under TR it's to weak to do much because it needs to invest in bulk to avoid being OHKO'd. The best thing Bronzong can do is kill itself. It's no match for the tiers most used and most powerful Pokemon (Delphox, Zoroark, Duoblade, Moltres, Drapion, Emboar, M-Banette, Sharpedo) and more. Jesus fuck why is it still RU. This is probably one of the only Pokemon I'd recommend moving down two ranks. But to avoid a bias retort I recommend moving it to C+.
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I will agree that Zong's best role is on TR teams that can't afford another setter (Or need another setter). However, it's weaknesses are fairly common in the tier (Especially Dark and Ghost) and it's Screens and SR sets generally are dead weight or outclassed in most cases. Honestly though I'm not sure where I'd place it. (I'm thinking either staying at B- or moving to C+)
(Also Zong would be extremely good in NU, though it's common weaknesses are still prevalent even in that tier)
(Also Zong would be extremely good in NU, though it's common weaknesses are still prevalent even in that tier)
Ok, as a Bronzong user, I really feel the need to chime in here. So, I'm pretty sure I've talked about that it needs Wish support and appreciates cleric support. How cool is it that Aromatisse, arguably the best defensive mon in the tier right now, provides both of these? That doesn't require a lot of team support imo. Now, I have used the Rocks set, and while I do feel Registeel and Rhyperior do it better, it is nice to have a Ground immunity, but more importantly right now, an immunity to Spikes. With all three of these lacking reliable recovery, getting a free pass on Spikes is super cool. The TR set is Zong's best set imo, but when I use the Rocks set, I don't feel it exactly puts me at a disadvantage because that cool Ground and Spikes immunity is nice to have against stuff like Rhyperior or Froslass teams. (and Gligar, the only other Spikes immune Rocks setter, dies to Froslass) Obviously, Zong still has its issues with Froslass, but it at least kind of forces some predictable plays that can allow you to get around Lass.
That said though, TR is definitely the ideal set to use on Bronzong. It gets along with many other TR setters (think Slowking, Aromatisse, Reuniclus, etc.) and covers SR as well, meaning you don't have to make Druddigon or Rhyperior use the move. Zong sure as hell doesn't belong anywhere in C ranks imo. It's good enough for at least B rank, maybe B+. But I will strongly disagree with any move to keep it at B- or down to C+, becuase imo, that just shows you don't have the right experience with it or don't support it right (AKA, use Aromatisse with it)
That said though, TR is definitely the ideal set to use on Bronzong. It gets along with many other TR setters (think Slowking, Aromatisse, Reuniclus, etc.) and covers SR as well, meaning you don't have to make Druddigon or Rhyperior use the move. Zong sure as hell doesn't belong anywhere in C ranks imo. It's good enough for at least B rank, maybe B+. But I will strongly disagree with any move to keep it at B- or down to C+, becuase imo, that just shows you don't have the right experience with it or don't support it right (AKA, use Aromatisse with it)
Agreeing with EonX, I don't know how the most efficient TR + SR user should ever be moved down into C rank, or even B-. That's a really powerful niche that really gives it a buttload of viability right there, because you NEVER want to be sacrificing a moveslot OR a turn on one of your sweepers setting up Stealth Rock. Bronzong gives you that option right there—it's a position that only it or Uxie can fulfill, and of the two, Bronzong is definitely the more offensive threat.
Also just because it has other worse sets doesn't mean it should be placed any lower. Pokemon should be placed on the viability rankings based on their best set.
Bronzong @ Focus Sash / Mental Herb
252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD | Brave
Trick Room | Stealth Rock | Gyro Ball | Explosion
252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD | Brave
Trick Room | Stealth Rock | Gyro Ball | Explosion
Yeah, it has two very prevalent weaknesses, but don't forget that Bronzong's goal is to set up both Trick Room and rocks efficiently and then get the hell out so that a sweeper can come in. Even if it takes a lot of damage in the process, it still did its job.
Also just because it has other worse sets doesn't mean it should be placed any lower. Pokemon should be placed on the viability rankings based on their best set.
Cresselia can't do the TR + SR thing, which makes it very different as a setter. Dual Screens is irrelevant because it's not Bronzong's best set by any stretch. And finally, there's no way either of them are more offensively capable than Bronzong—Uxie has Memento as opposed to Explosion, and Cresselia can't really do anything offensive without boosting, so I'm not seeing your point at all.
We're discussing Bronzong as a whole and we've established that the sets that utilize TR and Dual Screens are its best. I mentioned two Pokemon that do what Bronzong does better and more, how is that irrelevant? I agree that the best thing that set can do is kill itself but it faces stiff competition from Uxie because Memento > Explosion.
Sometimes just going kaboom and taking something with you is better than lowering attack and special attack by 2 stages. Also for Trick Room it is better to have Explosion rather than Memento. Memento is more useful to help set up sweepers like Barbaracle and Slurpuff while Explosion is just a nice way to weaken or KO something. Seeing as how Trick Room generally isn't about set up sweeping Explosion is usually favored.
I don't think you realize that tr teams in ru have 3, usually 4 setters.
Imo, bronzong and cress are staples.
The third can be aromatisse/porygon/etc. (generally something that isn't dark-weak).
Since I come from using tr in ou, I prefer 3 setters in general. In ru that doesn't work as well given the bulkier nature of the meta, and so I find that the best compromise is a hybrid setter/sweeper (ie reuninclus or cofag or slowking).
As far as Bronzong goes everyone seems to agree that it is outclassed for every set besides as a trick room setter. For a wall compared to registeel it gets no reliable recovery and so will die faster. As far as a rock setter goes there are much better ones out there as pointed out above. As a screen setter it is not nearly as good as Cresselia for two reasons. The first is that cress is much bulkier and the second is that you will have to be running light clay and then wont even have leftovers recovery. Where as Cress has Moonlight to be able to recover after setting up screens switch out and do it again. The only good set is as a trick room setter, and even then to make it viable you set up trick room and explode making it a quick 6-5 (some people dont mind losing a poke that early, but i dont like using suicide leads). So looking at Bronzong as a whole its one decent set gives it a niche as TR setter. I would say that Bronzong should either move down to C+ or stay at B-.
See, I don't like looking at it that way because then you're opening up discussions on things that just aren't really viable (e.g. using Bronzong for screens when you could be using something else). Just because Bronzong has many bad sets doesn't mean that other Pokemon also don't have bad sets, and these bad sets should have no impact whatsoever on viability rankings.
Take Shuckle for example. Shuckle only has one viable set, but it's a really good set and that's where it gets its S-rank placement. Who cares about the fact that Power Trick exists, or that Shuckle has a very slight chance to sweep with Acupressure? We're not ranking Shuckle based on the things it can't do well. The same goes for every other Pokemon—Rhyperior wasn't placed in S-rank for its special attacking capabilities, and Slowking would be a lot lower if we decided to rate it as a Choice Band user. Similarly, Bronzong's placement shouldn't be decided by the questionable sets that don't perform as well as its best. I think most of us can agree that Bronzong's Trick Room set is the best and possibly only truly viable set, so we should be placing it based on how that set performs. That's why I think it should be B at the lowest, preferably B+.
As big user of Bronzong I think that B Rank is the best for Bronzong imo B+ is prolly higher at same level like Registeel when I think that is a bit worst overall but definitely have some nice niches over Registeel to be used such inmunity to spikes and ground types which is big, hits harder with gyro ball also.
B- is prolly lower than deserves, so B is the best rank in my opinion.
B- is prolly lower than deserves, so B is the best rank in my opinion.
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