I dont think ive ever btought my doublade in on a hitmontop because of foresight... i just switch into a threat instead lol.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Resource RU Viability Ranking
- Thread starter DTC
- Start date
- Status
I'm gonna need more than "obvious reasons" for a mon who was not only buffed by defog buff, but also benefited from knock off buff to hit things it previously would have been unable to hit such as doublade :@
No need to get mad bro, instead maybe you can tell me what I'm missing like I asked. "Obvious reasons" include Stealth Rock weakness, poor typing/multiple common weaknesses, the existence of things like Rhyperior and Registeel, and frailty. Yes I know it gets Eviolite but it still has lots of limited switch-in opportunities. I know about Defog users but I feel like it isn't even worth it to remove your own hazards (which Scyther loves) for a Pokemon that is easily revenge killed. I guess I missed the previous arguments but I don't see how these downsides aren't obvious. Scyther sucked in BW so unless Knock Off really made it better, I just can't see it above C+.
It's difficult to tell you what you're missing when you don't explain your current perceptions. ^ is much more explanatory than "obvious reasons."
Scyther doesn't have a particularly poor typing in ru. It outspeeds all relevant fire types, so only fast electric types and muskateers with stone edge realistically give it trouble. A 4x resistance to fighting coupled with a neutrality to dark is a blessing that yanmega cannot take advantage of. It is neutral to the attacks of many mons such as doublade, meloetta, reuninclus, and druddigon, and it has the bulk to comfortably take these neutral attacks.
Rhyperior and Registeel (and everything else that would "Counter" scyther) are completely irrelevant because of the existence of baton pass. One of those two come in to halt your sweep? Pass a +2 boost to virizion/etc. and problem solved. Scyther's fantastic speed makes this super easy.
And commenting on its frailty is ridiculous. Even the mons that it can't outspeed (speed boost yanmega, jolteon) it can tank a hit from when healthy and pass to a better-suited receipient if neccesary
252 SpA Life Orb Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 216 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Scyther: 273-322 (81.4 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Not to mention the many hits that scyther is more suited to take
+2 252 Atk Cobalion Iron Head vs. 216 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Scyther: 163-193 (48.6 - 57.6%) -- 94.5% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Escavalier Iron Head vs. 216 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Scyther: 178-210 (53.1 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Hitmonlee Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 216 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Scyther: 116-136 (34.6 - 40.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpedo Ice Fang vs. 216 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Scyther: 156-185 (46.5 - 55.2%) -- 66% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Doublade Iron Head vs. 216 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Scyther: 103-123 (30.7 - 36.7%) -- 64.2% chance to 3HKO
For comparison:
252+ SpA Life Orb Reuniclus Psyshock vs. 216 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Scyther: 146-173 (43.5 - 51.6%) -- 9.4% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Reuniclus Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Moltres: 199-234 (61.9 - 72.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Reuniclus Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aromatisse: 238-281 (58.6 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Reuniclus Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Druddigon: 199-235 (55.5 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Especially given its reliable recovery, claiming that scyther is frail by any means is absurd.
Anything that is slower than base 105 speed (nearly the whole tier) cannot counter, and can hardly even check scyther as it can either land a boosted hit or baton pass out to a better matchup every single time. If scyther has a bad matchup, then it can not only escape and grab momentum but also allow a teammate a +2 boost in the process
And in a tier where choiced moltres and yanmega are huge threats (and A+ mons) that will obviously need to come in and out somewhat often given their choice item, hazard removal is not all that uncommon or difficult
No offense intended, you've made it obvious that the negatives that you brought up are simply assumptions, and so naturally my first recommendation is actual playtesting over theorymon, especially for a pokemon that is as rarely used in rarelyused as Scyther.
Last edited:
Your acting like scyther is always gonna be at 100% health which is not the case. Most of the calcs you posted are scyther being 2hkod after rocks which every good team should carry and as DC mentioned Scyther loves having rocks on the other side of the field because it makes it so much more effective as it forces many switches especially with the choice sets so defog can sometimes be a pain on your side too.
The set you have brought up from before is the bulky SDer which has barely any attack EVs and hits nothing hard without a boost with an exception of weaknesses to flying. For example your calc of Jolteon thunderbolt, what are you doing back to Jolteon after you take 90% from it? That calc is completely useless in trying to prove your point.
Scythers defensive typing is pretty poor. Yes it's immune to ground and eats fighting/grass up but your acting like you can bring it in on anything and just eat a hit up and be fine. It's not easy getting up a boost with a 4x weakness to rocks and weakness to a few common types (Fire/Elec/Flying). You're also relying on it's eviolite to take hits and we all know how popular knock off has become with Gen 6. You're gonna be bringing scyther in on mons such as Ecav/Hitmonlee/Grass types which most carry knock off and scyther won't be eating anything up after the eviolite is dropped. I think it should stay in C+ as it has not been effective as conveyed by others in my experience and many obvious reasons stated before.
You aren't doing anything back to jolteon. You are baton passing to virizion or any other physical mon (and that mon is coming in unscathed).
Running scyther requires the same support as yanmega and moltres. It isn't impossible to keep rocks off of the field, whether that is accomplished through defog, standard hitmonlee (not every team runs doublade, and doublade can be worn down (or set up on by scyther)), or even forseight. Hazard removal is not a new concept especially with the particularly large number of top-tier hazard-weak mons in ru.
As mentioned, it isn't exactly difficult to boost up with scyther. After that, it is certainly powerful enough and fast enough to be a real threat (or pass to one)
I'll post some replays in a bit
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rususpecttest-137073748
Bulky enough against virtually all defensive mons, eviolite or not
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rususpecttest-137075285
Bad battle (just putting up every game because 2am). Still, scyther won even with knock off and parahax
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rususpecttest-137075626
Oops. Misclicked at end. But scyther set up on an emboar so idc
Last edited:
i mean all these 3 replays are against users with no stealth rocks on their team, it isn't surprising you were able to sweep with scyther playing against players/teams like that. Scyther would not nearly be as effective against competent players who know how to build teams properly which is why it deserves nothing above C+
This is the last post I'll make on the matter simply because we've both said our dues, but simply saying that Scyther probably wouldn't be as effective against better players proves absolutely nothing. It's not only theorymon, it's completely hypothetical.
Not to mention in the first one the fireblast miss from Delphox mattered a ton.
252 SpA Life Orb Delphox Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Scyther: 343-406 (99.7 - 118%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
I'd like to see some replays where rocks were set up and they have a spin blocker like Doublade.
Last edited:
Considering you only showed Scyther being effective against players that A) Don't use Stealth Rock on their team and/or B) Use garbage mons like Electivire, Dedenne, and Kricketune, then it isn't exactly off base to assume that Scyther wouldn't be able to perform very well against players who actually have a brain. This is also taking into consideration that you likely only won the first match out of hax (take note of that Fire blast miss) and didn't even win the third despite the fact that "Scyther set up on Emboar". Honestly, this mon is just bad. I would prefer if Scyther wasn't ranked at all, but w/e.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ru-137233163
Here's a replay against a much much better opponent and team (ladder pickings are slim). Complete with shuckle and doublade!
Had I not falsely assumed that sharpedo was faster than rotom, scyther would have facilitated a clean sweep.
inb4 "foreseight gimmicky af"
+2 lee would have practically 1hkod with knock off regardless
scyther came in multiple times and I would have lost the match without it.
Other highlights include taking less than 50% from a +4 Doublade shadow sneak (the rest of my team was practically 1hkod by a +2) and 50% from a rotom-mow volt switch
Scyther is great on offensive teams as it offers well-needed bulk without sacrificing momentum/offensive presence and support
And oops. turns out final gambit doesn't work against ghost types (i needed doublade a teensy bit weaker to pick it off with jolteon)
Here's a replay against a much much better opponent and team (ladder pickings are slim). Complete with shuckle and doublade!
Had I not falsely assumed that sharpedo was faster than rotom, scyther would have facilitated a clean sweep.
inb4 "foreseight gimmicky af"
+2 lee would have practically 1hkod with knock off regardless
scyther came in multiple times and I would have lost the match without it.
Other highlights include taking less than 50% from a +4 Doublade shadow sneak (the rest of my team was practically 1hkod by a +2) and 50% from a rotom-mow volt switch
Scyther is great on offensive teams as it offers well-needed bulk without sacrificing momentum/offensive presence and support
And oops. turns out final gambit doesn't work against ghost types (i needed doublade a teensy bit weaker to pick it off with jolteon)
Last edited:
Having used the CB set a little bit, I think if Scyther is to get ranked, it should depend on that set Spirit . CB Scyther is actually pretty unique in that it's a Choice'd Pokemon that has a really hard-hitting momentum move in U-turn, which is honestly very nice and gives Scyther a distinct niche over other things. The fact that it's also not susceptible to Sticky Web and hits a nice Speed tier also make it pretty nice as those let it do immediate damage, and even sweep quite easily (especially because U-turn lets it wear down some of its own counters, such as Rhyperior). I mean, it requires a lot of support in Spin / Defog and something to kill Steels / Rocks, but it's not really bad if you can manage that. Even if you don't manage those things consistently, being able to come in and do big damage with CB Aerial Ace or nab momentum with U-turn even with Stealth Rock up means it's not totally useless either. The problem with other Scyther sets other than Choice'd ones is that unless they have boatloads of support, they aren't doing that much and the payoff isn't nearly large enough to make supporting it that worth it because they lack the ability to punish the opponent for not keeping Stealth Rock up for the entire match.
So imo, Scyther should be C or C+ for Choice'd sets. It requires a bunch of support to work but it has a decent payoff if you do provide that support, sorta like Swellow I suppose so either ranking is fitting. B is silly though because that implies that, at least imo, that I would want to use Scyther on a decent number of teams, and that just isn't so because Scyther is a pretty niche Pokemon lol.
(also DittoCrow Scyther wasn't that bad in BW RU b/c at least it was a physical attacker that didn't lose all momentum to Mola :[. It was just really hard to build around.)
So imo, Scyther should be C or C+ for Choice'd sets. It requires a bunch of support to work but it has a decent payoff if you do provide that support, sorta like Swellow I suppose so either ranking is fitting. B is silly though because that implies that, at least imo, that I would want to use Scyther on a decent number of teams, and that just isn't so because Scyther is a pretty niche Pokemon lol.
(also DittoCrow Scyther wasn't that bad in BW RU b/c at least it was a physical attacker that didn't lose all momentum to Mola :[. It was just really hard to build around.)
MikeDawg I'm not going to respond to all of your points because I've either already covered it or someone else did, and it seems like you're just saying that the Baton Pass set alone should be B-, which I'll get to later.
By "frailty" I meant that it has trouble switching into anything without a 'free switch,' especially with SR up.
I also don't see how 4x SR weakness and 5 weaknesses to common types are assumptions and not obvious.
For the Baton Pass set, honestly anything with Baton Pass is gimmicky in my opinion outside of Shell Smash and Quiver Dance passers. Besides, I've talked with a few people and they've convinced me that Combusken is superior to Scyther in this role due to Speed Boost and ability to sweep on its own more easily than Scyther.
Either way I was just trying to clear up B- and Scyther is C rank from my experience, so I'm not really going to continue arguing for the sake of 1 rank difference. I just don't see how these arguments are "ridiculous." Also can we please just stop treating people with different opinions like idiots?
By "frailty" I meant that it has trouble switching into anything without a 'free switch,' especially with SR up.
I also don't see how 4x SR weakness and 5 weaknesses to common types are assumptions and not obvious.
For the Baton Pass set, honestly anything with Baton Pass is gimmicky in my opinion outside of Shell Smash and Quiver Dance passers. Besides, I've talked with a few people and they've convinced me that Combusken is superior to Scyther in this role due to Speed Boost and ability to sweep on its own more easily than Scyther.
Either way I was just trying to clear up B- and Scyther is C rank from my experience, so I'm not really going to continue arguing for the sake of 1 rank difference. I just don't see how these arguments are "ridiculous." Also can we please just stop treating people with different opinions like idiots?
Skuntank from B- -> B
Being immune to Toxic, access to Defog, and arguably having one of the best matchups towards Shuckle gives Skuntank some use viability. Thanks to Taunt + Defog, it can play some trickery around Mental Herb and Encore. Skuntank also can heavily damage Braviary thanks to Sucker Punch and Aftermath which will leave Braviary susceptible to being revenge killed. It also has a good matchup against other popular mons like Slowking, Bronzong, Aromatisse, and Amoonguss. (Watchout for Spore) It can also function as a Pursuit Trapper for Fire-Types that have trouble muscling through certain threats. These two niches keep it from being a one-trick pony, giving it a little more to offer compared to the other 'mons in it's classification tier like Xatu, Roselia, Golbat.
Being immune to Toxic, access to Defog, and arguably having one of the best matchups towards Shuckle gives Skuntank some use viability. Thanks to Taunt + Defog, it can play some trickery around Mental Herb and Encore. Skuntank also can heavily damage Braviary thanks to Sucker Punch and Aftermath which will leave Braviary susceptible to being revenge killed. It also has a good matchup against other popular mons like Slowking, Bronzong, Aromatisse, and Amoonguss. (Watchout for Spore) It can also function as a Pursuit Trapper for Fire-Types that have trouble muscling through certain threats. These two niches keep it from being a one-trick pony, giving it a little more to offer compared to the other 'mons in it's classification tier like Xatu, Roselia, Golbat.
Honestly I dont think that Sharpedo deserves S-rank when needs totally spikes support and we have lost like the best spiker in the tier so far (Froslass), is checked by a lot of stuff on defensive and offensive side, for example on the defensive one with Alomomola, Registeel or Aromatisse, on offensive teams priorities like Mach Punch Hitmonlee and another offensive ones mons works well to check Sharpedo like Virizion or Cobalion; a lot of stuff beats Sharpedo in 1vs1 like for example Escavalier so can be played around, is just an cleaner which needs certain support to get that extra damage on their opposite mons to clean, kinda like Yanmega. A+ rank imo
I'm sorry if I came off as abrasive. It wasn't my intention to undermine anybody's opinion (though I can certainly see how that came off given, in hindsight, the admittedly uncompromising nature of some of my posts). While I still believe that Scyther is most fitting in B-, given its flaws it certainly wouldn't be incredibly out of place in the upper-eschelon of the C ranks. It's great at what it does, but it's also rather niche, and I suppose the disparity in opinions depends on how important one believes that that niche is and subsequently how great the opportunity cost of supporting it is.
Agreeing with dropping Sharpedo to A+, very threatening late game but all playstyles have ways to handle it.
I don't really know why Shuckle is S rank honestly. I for one think Web is horribly overrated, Defense doesn't care that much about Speed drops and Offense has enough Priority or Web immune mons for it to not be much of an issue, Spikes is universally far better imo. As for Shuckle itself, whilst its defenses are high, it is an extremely predictable lead, and can be prevented from setting Web and Rocks with either Xatu or any offensive mon that can hit it with SE STAB. I understand that having Web and Rocks is a very useful utility for Offensive teams, but its so predicatble it can be stopped from getting 2 layers down most of the time and offers 0 offensive pressure. I wouldn't really know where to place it, but certainly not S. Also the fact that Gligar or Golbat can quite easily defog Vs. Phys and Special Attackers respectively worsen its position further. I know you can say this about other hazard setters, but at least they offer other things in return such as offensive pressure or other utility moves.
I still want Gurdurr to be moved to B+, Its a great Check to a bunch of Physical attackers such as Musketeers, Sharpedo, Lee, Zoro, Cincinno, Drapion etc. then it has Knock Off to hurt Psychics and Ghosts such as Delphox and Doublade after it forces stuff out, or just to remove fat mons items. Guts and Drain Punch means its really hard to wear down, Mach Punch helps it to Revenge kill weakened Explouds and the like. Then in the final slot you can run Stone Edge to bop incoming Yanmegas and Moltres', Ice Punch for Gligar and Amoonguss, Poison Jab for Whimsi and Aroma or Bulk Up to attempt a sweep, and the initial scout of the set can be very dangerous. Very effective mon in this current meta.
I don't really know why Shuckle is S rank honestly. I for one think Web is horribly overrated, Defense doesn't care that much about Speed drops and Offense has enough Priority or Web immune mons for it to not be much of an issue, Spikes is universally far better imo. As for Shuckle itself, whilst its defenses are high, it is an extremely predictable lead, and can be prevented from setting Web and Rocks with either Xatu or any offensive mon that can hit it with SE STAB. I understand that having Web and Rocks is a very useful utility for Offensive teams, but its so predicatble it can be stopped from getting 2 layers down most of the time and offers 0 offensive pressure. I wouldn't really know where to place it, but certainly not S. Also the fact that Gligar or Golbat can quite easily defog Vs. Phys and Special Attackers respectively worsen its position further. I know you can say this about other hazard setters, but at least they offer other things in return such as offensive pressure or other utility moves.
I still want Gurdurr to be moved to B+, Its a great Check to a bunch of Physical attackers such as Musketeers, Sharpedo, Lee, Zoro, Cincinno, Drapion etc. then it has Knock Off to hurt Psychics and Ghosts such as Delphox and Doublade after it forces stuff out, or just to remove fat mons items. Guts and Drain Punch means its really hard to wear down, Mach Punch helps it to Revenge kill weakened Explouds and the like. Then in the final slot you can run Stone Edge to bop incoming Yanmegas and Moltres', Ice Punch for Gligar and Amoonguss, Poison Jab for Whimsi and Aroma or Bulk Up to attempt a sweep, and the initial scout of the set can be very dangerous. Very effective mon in this current meta.
Just gonna throw in a little extra support for Gurdurr here. I've been trying it and other random, non hitmonchan Fighting-types out for a little while and i can confirm that its pretty effective in the current metagame. Its physical bulk is excellent (not absurd, only doublade reaches absurd) with Eviolite factored in and still decent even if Knocked Off, giving it many opportunities to switch in and check various Pokemon such as Cobalion, Zoroark, and Sharpedo much more effectively than say the frail Hitmonlee ever could. After a Bulk Up boost breaking Gurdurr with physical attacks is like trying to punch through a brick wall, and because of Drain Punch it has quite an easy time keeping itself healthy when attempting a sweep. The Knock Off buff is of course nice for Gurdurr since it struggled with Ghost- and Psychic-types in BW quite a bit, and now its gifted with whats essentially an 100 BP Dark-type move on the first hit to stop those (Knock Off also means Gurdurr can knock off things like CB and Life Orb to make taking attacks a bit easier, not just for itself, but for the rest of its team). Guts is a really nice ability for Gurdurr that lets it absorb Toxic, Burn, and Paralysis, and turn them from a crippling issue to a powerful weapon, making it hit even harder. Lastly, Gurdurr has the very nice advantage of being a powerful offensive threat that doesn't care about being slow, which is a pretty good quality to have in a metagame where Sticky Web Shuckle is running far and wide, especially when combined with decently powerful priority in the form of Mach Punch. Gurdurr is definitely an underrated threat in the current meta imo and i wouldn't be opposed to promoting it to somewhere in the upper B ranks.
Proposing Alomomola for S rank. Very few Pokemon in this tier possess the raw potential which Alomomola possesses. Its physical bulk allows it to wall almost every physical threat in the tier, and even threats such as Hitmonlee cannot break through due to Alomomola's deadly combination of Wish + Protect + Regenerator. The aforementioned Hitmonlee also cannot charge in recklessly, as a well-timed Protect can greatly cripple the fighter. Speaking of Regenerator, this ability allows Alomomola to switch out much more easily and pass wishes to its teammates, which makes it much less predictable than if it had to stay in and use Protect to guarantee HP gain. This makes the fish that much more threatening. Its massive HP allows it to pass massive wishes, making it even better at its job. Meanwhile, this HP also allows it to take special hits, albeit not as well, but take them well enough so that it is not completely helpless against special attackers. Between Scald and Toxic, Alomomola can cripple a large portion of the tier, and its access to the aforementioned Wish + Protect + Regenerator combination allows it to spam Scald and fish for burns much more easily. The A ranking it currently has simply does not do it justice, as it walls far too large of a portion of the metagame to not be in S-Rank. And unlike other threats, Alomomola can recover after being caught off guard by a threat such as Dark Pulse Sharpedo due to its Regenerator ability, allowing it to continue its reign of terror for a larger period of time. Sure, it can be threatened by Pokemon such as SubCM Meloetta, but it simply walls way too large of a portion of the RU metagame to not be in S-Rank. It is almost a staple on stall teams, and can cripple a large number of threats attempting to switch in and take it on. All in all, Alomomola's raw bulk, great typing, fantastic ability, and amazing support capabilities truly make this behemoth of a fish one of the top Pokemon in the RU metagame; it definitely deserves to be in S-Rank.
I think there's like 2 physical attackers in the metagame that alomomomola doesn't beat and they're SD Virizion (Boosting move and super effective move) and CB Escavalier (I think it's literally the highest attack stat in the tier with the biggest boosting item available clicking a 120 bp move).
Although it's fun to note that CB Escav can't switch into alomomola cause of scald burns/knock off being such a shit of a move.
What I'm saying is I support Alomola moving up to S rank. Great mon on Stall, balanced, and even offense as a bulky pivot to keep your guys alive.
Also Mirror Coat fish is funny as hell.
Although it's fun to note that CB Escav can't switch into alomomola cause of scald burns/knock off being such a shit of a move.
What I'm saying is I support Alomola moving up to S rank. Great mon on Stall, balanced, and even offense as a bulky pivot to keep your guys alive.
Also Mirror Coat fish is funny as hell.
I dont think that Alomomola is S-rank tbh
Alomomola is really good, a bit worst than in BW RU. Knock Off fucked him badly, rip that extra turns with Wish + Protect with leftovers recovery, one of my biggest problems with her is that relies a lot on scald burn, also rip if that physical sweepers uses lum berrie like Drapion or Kabutops, still loses vs another physical boost mons like Curse Regi and BU Braviary for example, Alomomola is perfect vs random physical offense but is exploitable, any good team can handle pretty well Alomomola.
SHAKE MAD AT ALOMOMOLKA BECAUSE 6-0 GAYRU PRIDE YN?
Alomomola is really good, a bit worst than in BW RU. Knock Off fucked him badly, rip that extra turns with Wish + Protect with leftovers recovery, one of my biggest problems with her is that relies a lot on scald burn, also rip if that physical sweepers uses lum berrie like Drapion or Kabutops, still loses vs another physical boost mons like Curse Regi and BU Braviary for example, Alomomola is perfect vs random physical offense but is exploitable, any good team can handle pretty well Alomomola.
SHAKE MAD AT ALOMOMOLKA BECAUSE 6-0 GAYRU PRIDE YN?
o____k ive made a few changes to the ranks for now. They're as follows.
I'd see to see some more discussion on Hitmontop, Alomomola, Skuntank (this was proposed but ignored so i thought i'd bring it into the limelight), as well as Yanmega.
Might edit this post later with thoughts of my own :)
Scyther down from B- rank to C rank
Whimsicott down from B- rank to C+ rank
Gurdurr up from B- rank to B rank
Sharpedo down from S rank to A+ rank
Whimsicott down from B- rank to C+ rank
Gurdurr up from B- rank to B rank
Sharpedo down from S rank to A+ rank
I'd see to see some more discussion on Hitmontop, Alomomola, Skuntank (this was proposed but ignored so i thought i'd bring it into the limelight), as well as Yanmega.
Might edit this post later with thoughts of my own :)
Hey, so I know I might get a lot of hate for this, and I'm not trying to stir up another shitstorm of bandwagoning and hate, but I honestly think the meta has changed enough that Claydol should move up to C- rank.
Notice how I worded that - Claydol has not gotten some revolutionary new set discovered, it doesn't have some newfound role or stellar core-building associated with it. It's still a rather scrubby Rapid Spin user with a host of issues, and it hasn't changed since the last time its ranking was discussed. However, the metagame has changed around it. Doublade is now the premier spinblocker in the tier, and other spinners like Hitmonlee and Kabutops can have serious issues getting past something as resilient as Doublade. In addition, even if Hitmonlee were to get a lucky Knock Off crit or something and beat Doublade, it's still highly vulnerable to folding the next turn due to its extremely low bulk. Hitmontop, once holding the title of most reliable Rapid Spin user in the tier, is extremely vulnerable to the now-popular Toxic Spikes usage on defensive and offensive teams alike. No longer can it reliably switch in and take care of hazards throughout the length of a match like it used to without a demanding level of team support. The way this all pertains to Claydol is that Claydol is now a better option for a spinner in such a spin-deprived tier like RU.
I'd like to call attention to some of the things Claydol can do as well that help make a bad spinner not so bad:
capabilities problems. It's not great, but it's not so horrible that it should be placed in D. D-rank basically says to me "why the hell would you use this," but from my recent experience I think Claydol is usable enough that it should be a consideration rather than a laughingstock.
Notice how I worded that - Claydol has not gotten some revolutionary new set discovered, it doesn't have some newfound role or stellar core-building associated with it. It's still a rather scrubby Rapid Spin user with a host of issues, and it hasn't changed since the last time its ranking was discussed. However, the metagame has changed around it. Doublade is now the premier spinblocker in the tier, and other spinners like Hitmonlee and Kabutops can have serious issues getting past something as resilient as Doublade. In addition, even if Hitmonlee were to get a lucky Knock Off crit or something and beat Doublade, it's still highly vulnerable to folding the next turn due to its extremely low bulk. Hitmontop, once holding the title of most reliable Rapid Spin user in the tier, is extremely vulnerable to the now-popular Toxic Spikes usage on defensive and offensive teams alike. No longer can it reliably switch in and take care of hazards throughout the length of a match like it used to without a demanding level of team support. The way this all pertains to Claydol is that Claydol is now a better option for a spinner in such a spin-deprived tier like RU.
I'd like to call attention to some of the things Claydol can do as well that help make a bad spinner not so bad:
- With 36 special attack EVs, it always 2HKOs Doublade.
- Doublade cannot KO back with Shadow Claw + Shadow Sneak nor +2 Shadow Sneak. So if you predict wrongly and Doublade comes in, you still have the option of beating it if that's more important than spinning. Most importantly, it cannot set up on you.
- Assuming a spread of 252 HP / 212 Def / 36 SpA / 8 SpD Bold, you will NEVER be OHKO'd by LO Sharpedo, LO Moltres, Modest Specs Exploud, LO Zoroark, Adamant Zangoose, Mega Banette and other powerful attackers. It is VERY difficult to prevent this thing from spinning with offensive pressure alone, setting it apart from Hitmonlee.
- Levitate helps greatly against Spikes-stacking teams, especially Toxic Spikes, setting it apart from Hitmontop.
- Status