Hmm, did some calculations and found out that a 252 SpA Draco Meteor + 80 Atk Naughty Outrage doesn't even come close to koing Blissey. Scrap the idea of Flygon then.
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Salamence is Uber.
- Thread starter Curtains
- Start date
the metagame will have little to no change without salamence its usage was just as popular as gyarados and tyranitar, with scizor still being more popular. with its banning people will simply find a similar replacment. half the people didn't even use salamence due to personal favour or due to team syneregy such as stall.
I never mentioned Arcanine would be a Salamence replacement... I only mentioned him if he could be another option for a Fire type for those FWG cores.
For those arguing that by banning dalamnce another pokemon just steps up to become broken, who exactly do you think this could possibly be?
Up at the top of usage stats, we have heatran, tyranitar, and gyarados who are always up there due to being adaptable, but also have a long list of counters each.
Infernape and starmie have that little love/hate relationship, and these two honestly seem like the easiest to point out for this argument. I will not comment on this
Up at the top of usage stats, we have heatran, tyranitar, and gyarados who are always up there due to being adaptable, but also have a long list of counters each.
Infernape and starmie have that little love/hate relationship, and these two honestly seem like the easiest to point out for this argument. I will not comment on this
1.How will salamence's removal effect the metagame?
Less steel types will be on teams, to stop Salamence. Scizor usage will drop.
2.Will stall be a dominant force?
I don't think stall usage will rise or fall dramatically.
3.What pokemon stand out as a pokemon that thrives without salamence?
Flygon and Dragonite will see a lot more usage, as Salamence outclassed them in general, but not completely. Heatran will also be running around a lot more.
4.What did you think of the process for salamence removal? (after about post 270 the mod said you cant answer this question)
5.How does Salamence do in ubers?
I haven't played many ubers games, and in the few games I have played, I haven't seen Salamence in any of my opponents teams.
6.What pokemon will see a decrease in use?
Scizor, and maybe steel types in general.
7. What pokemon might come from UU to OU as a result of Salamence's banning?
Maybe some of the BL players might come up, but I doubt anything will rise.
8. Do you think this was a good time to ban Salamence?
With Black & White coming out soon, I don't think this was essential.
9. Why or why wasn't Salamence a good candidate for ubers?
I'm of two minds; Salamence was very capable of easily getting a kill for the team, but it isn't the godly wall breaker that some people make it out to be.
10. Who should be the next candidate for Ubers if you would choose?
Nothing. Black & White is going to be out soon, there's no real point adding anything else to the Uber tier. For all that we know, Salamence might be relegated to OU again.
Less steel types will be on teams, to stop Salamence. Scizor usage will drop.
2.Will stall be a dominant force?
I don't think stall usage will rise or fall dramatically.
3.What pokemon stand out as a pokemon that thrives without salamence?
Flygon and Dragonite will see a lot more usage, as Salamence outclassed them in general, but not completely. Heatran will also be running around a lot more.
4.What did you think of the process for salamence removal? (after about post 270 the mod said you cant answer this question)
5.How does Salamence do in ubers?
I haven't played many ubers games, and in the few games I have played, I haven't seen Salamence in any of my opponents teams.
6.What pokemon will see a decrease in use?
Scizor, and maybe steel types in general.
7. What pokemon might come from UU to OU as a result of Salamence's banning?
Maybe some of the BL players might come up, but I doubt anything will rise.
8. Do you think this was a good time to ban Salamence?
With Black & White coming out soon, I don't think this was essential.
9. Why or why wasn't Salamence a good candidate for ubers?
I'm of two minds; Salamence was very capable of easily getting a kill for the team, but it isn't the godly wall breaker that some people make it out to be.
10. Who should be the next candidate for Ubers if you would choose?
Nothing. Black & White is going to be out soon, there's no real point adding anything else to the Uber tier. For all that we know, Salamence might be relegated to OU again.
I'm thinking it relates to what I mentioned earlier in this thread (I think it was this thread) that Stall would be something that a lot of people would try because of the spreading words "stall is / will be dominant". Everyone and their cow is saying that. This stall increase will probably die down once a lot of people realize stall isn't as easy to play as they think or are used to. I don't understand why people would think stall is suddenly way easier to play or will net them a ton more wins, since stall had more problems than just Salamence.
I wonder why a lot of people just don't keep their teams the same. Should the team have had Salamence, they can replace it with Dragonite possibly, although that won't be a permanent fix probably. But if they could cover the majority of offensive threats (Lucario, Heatran, Gyarados) then it should be easier to play in this new metagame. As long as they can handle the incoming Shaymin they'll no longer have to deal with the Salamence threat and they can even adjust their teams to cover new threats while keeping or improving upon the effectiveness of the team.
Why don't we talk about the teams we've been running since the Salamence ban? Currently, I just made a team consisting of a DS lead Azelf, SubPunch Breloom, SD Lucario, DD Tar, and Agiligross. It seems to be doing good at the moment; though, I may have to do some alterations when I actually start going against tougher opponents since I've been doing this under a test account.
Frankly, I think that people are just overestimating stall and seem to forget that this is fourth gen - a generation that was never really all that kind to stall. In fact, Salamence isn't really stall's biggest threat. At most, it can get a pokemon of the opposing player's choice. Meanwhile, annoying choice users and surprising, yet effective sweeper/wall breaker sets are most problematic to stall teams.
Stylish Interval said:
Frankly, I think that people are just overestimating stall and seem to forget that this is fourth gen - a generation that was never really all that kind to stall. In fact, Salamence isn't really stall's biggest threat. At most, it can get a pokemon of the opposing player's choice. Meanwhile, annoying choice users and surprising, yet effective sweeper/wall breaker sets are most problematic to stall teams.
I've been trying out a team consisting of LeadApe, Scarf Flygon, CB Scizor, LO Starmie, Heatran, and Breloom, with the goal of U-turning around for momentum (such as switching in Breloom on Blissey, Heatran on Jirachi or Scizor, etc). It's been doing alright, but I'll admit that stall is a bit annoying to face with this team.
Stall is easy to pick up. If you know the metagame and have a fair amount of prediction then you can be successful in beating a lot of mid ranked players especially right now with all the team changes going on.The speed decrease from dragonite is far too great for it to "replace salamence". if salamence had 280 speed this topic would'nt even be here. Dragonite is played much more differently because most of the time; it will take a hit before it does anything.Dragonite in specific roles come in to mind as a possible replace ment such as maybe a scarf dragonite or a lead choice bander just to name a few.
My take on the new metagame
This metagame is very frustrating at the moment because everything is so cut and paste and basically the same, which was outlined plenty of times in this thread.its a little tougher to be original but when you do find a origianl gem like life orb aerodactyl, then that pokemon will be huge because of the cut and paste attitude of battlers right now as in Hurr fire grass water flygon.ive seen the same team of (spike staker), rotom, rest talk gyara , bliss/snore/steel type/random stall poke that ive actually had to make a counter for rest talk gyarados. To be specific this team http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74998 i have seen over and over and over and its been pissing me off. Ive gotten up to 1480 cre so far with my team but its just so annoying and grindfest like. Prediction is not that important as a great defensive team with good switchins. This places more than ever a emphasis to counter very specific threats. But in spite of the annoyances its fun, lo starmie is the next suspect cause its only counter is blissey (we can argue about this).
I was thinking more along of the lines of MixNite, since it is a fine replacement to MixMence. Of course DDNite would never be the same as DDMence. But you would lose little, if any, efficiency since Mixed Salamence and Dragonite like to switch in on and exploit the same things.
Banning Salamence will ruin the metagame. He did not break the metagame in the slightest. He wasn't even the most used pokemon, LOL. Stall will now dominate and that is why Smogon has banned Salamence. They want everyone to use stall teams with no creativity and innovation in sets. 9 people had complete control over the metagame and they decided to ban a pokemon who was a strong offensive pokemon with good wallbreaking abilities but suffers from a stealth rock weakness and not the greatest speed. he also is hit by SS and does not have great survivability.
....No.
Stall will not be the dominant force. Did you ever play Suspect?
Also, those 9 people, I daresay, were a lot better then you.
The horror the horror!
It has access to moves like Wish and Roost, it was good defense's and very few weakness's. I'd say it has some good survivability if it's used right.
You have never seen me play. I have beaten some of the nine people that voted for the ban on Salamence.
Does no one use SR?
That is basically a counter to Mence. IF you're good and can force him out and keep rocks on the field you're good to go with countering Mence, LOL. Well that worked for me. If a pokemon can 2HKO the whole metagame it does not mean it is uber. You have to think of the situation that Salamence is in. Priority moves, faster mons can easily kill him off. In a stall match without roost and LO Mence would die in 3-4 moves. When I played stall he was not in the top 5 of the scariest threats against me. Trust me there are better pokemon to fight stall. Salamence may look extremely powerful and broken on paper but its the situation that he in that counts. I think scizor counters mence perfectly. Scarf tran can Hp ice or dragon pulse it. If you predict right and switch in on the right moves then Salamence is not the headache he is made out to be. If you lose your scizor because he fire blast you on the switch on a nice prediction don't complain he's broken. It's a good move by him. The better player wins.
hmm nice points here. I think the one thing that kept him from OU was roost. LO starmie can be as big of a threat as Mence. But the typing and frailness keeps it from becoming uber. Mence had the good typing and shit like latias. So they banned him.Your correct about the best player winning. Mence was 100% prediction. Now its all based on luck of the numbers (hax) and team building.
Okay, I am about done reading the hysteria arguments for banning Salamence. You just said in a post that he is a "good" wallbreaker, but in this post you say that he is NOT even in the top 5 of wallbreakers?
If Salamence isn't a threat to stall teams, why do you think that stall teams are all of a sudden going to destroy the metagame? I think you need to think about what you said because you contradicted yourself quite badly.
Everyone, if you argue that Salamence shouldn't be banned because it can't operate as an effective wallbreaker because of priority, SR, revenging, etc., you can't turn around and say that with Salamence banned that stall will increase in use! It's the very definition of insanity.
I think that it's not a matter of "stall destroying the metagame", rather its the concept of "people think stall will destroy the metagame with Salamence gone". Stall usage will rise not because it will succeed without Salamence, but because people think it will succeed without Salamence. Give the metagame a few weeks, and Stall will plummet.
In that case, won't people soon realize that it wasn't actually that great of a wallbreaker and stall will go back down?
Or, if everyone is as smart as you (god forbid), they would already realize that everyone else was stupid and only they realize Salamence is bad, and that 8 of the 9 council members, (the best battles today), were wrong.
Also, have you ever heard of rapid spin? or anti leads? It's not that hard to keep SR off the field.. >.>
Or, if everyone is as smart as you (god forbid), they would already realize that everyone else was stupid and only they realize Salamence is bad, and that 8 of the 9 council members, (the best battles today), were wrong.
Also, have you ever heard of rapid spin? or anti leads? It's not that hard to keep SR off the field.. >.>
the same old SR argument. when are people going to shut up about that? you got scizor who cant ohko mence but is ohkoed by fire blast and/or +1 EQ. you got scarftran who is ohkoed by EQ and outspeed by +1 mence. you got starmie who is ohkoed by draco meteor and non scarf variants are outspeed by +1 mence. most priority users cant switch into mence atacks because one single miss prediction can cost you the fucking match.
also its not important if you beat the guys in there or not. most of the time on the ladder the winner is the one with the best team matchup. team A lost to team B who lose to team C who lose to team A. it all depend on the team the guy is using. and for all we know you could have haxed them to death. also remember the move rapid spin exist. aero leads are also awesome at keeping SR off field. if you think SR is a counter to mence then good sir, shut the fuck up.
also its not important if you beat the guys in there or not. most of the time on the ladder the winner is the one with the best team matchup. team A lost to team B who lose to team C who lose to team A. it all depend on the team the guy is using. and for all we know you could have haxed them to death. also remember the move rapid spin exist. aero leads are also awesome at keeping SR off field. if you think SR is a counter to mence then good sir, shut the fuck up.
I find it interesting to see that the only Steel being used right now is Heatran (Others are still around, but not nearly as mkch). It's as if people entirely forget that there are 3 other Dragon STABs in OU to tear through these teams with Outrage. Anyone feel like playing some Hyper Offense?
I've been playing HO, but I've been playing around with fighters instead of dragons. I already tried a team utilizing DS Azelf, DD Mence, DD Nite, DD Kingdra, ScarfGon, and DS Uxie many months ago to see what this dragon hysteria was all about. It worked fairly well on the ladder, but not so much on higher levels of play such as the Smogon tournament. By the way, I actually like using Agiligross since there's more of a reason to run Thunder Punch, and I don't always have to have my DD Tar run Fire Punch all the time either.
Forgive me for being a n00b but upon seeing the difference in suspect and standard ladder shaymin usage, I can't stop myself from asking the question why? Why is Shaymin never used in the old standard? Mence is 2HKOd by specs Seed Flare after Rocks whilst it doesn't OHKO back with MixMence Draco Meteor, and only speed ties anyway. Scarf Modest 2HKO's with Seed Flare after a sdef drop as well.
I know many will say Latias, but Latias was banned for the June ladder results, so Shaymin should have risen in usage. It seems to me that everyone is saying Shaymin will increase due to Salamence's ban simply because the good players said it was good. If Shaymin rises next month, its probably because people said it was good rather than people finding out for themselves. The good players say its "good" and everyone jumps on the bandwagon.
Feel free to correct me, as I am sort of new to Pokemon, but that was my reaction.
I know many will say Latias, but Latias was banned for the June ladder results, so Shaymin should have risen in usage. It seems to me that everyone is saying Shaymin will increase due to Salamence's ban simply because the good players said it was good. If Shaymin rises next month, its probably because people said it was good rather than people finding out for themselves. The good players say its "good" and everyone jumps on the bandwagon.
Feel free to correct me, as I am sort of new to Pokemon, but that was my reaction.
Actually I've seen A LOT of Metagross leads as well and you probably have too. So I wouldn't leave it at Heatran alone. Outside of a lead I have only seen Heatran being common, while there still seems to be the very uncommon Scizor and Skarmory at times.
I'm using Agiligross as well to clean up the little bits of a team after my dragons tear through an enemy team. Liberal use of Dugtrio also means that no steel can wall them for too long, especially Heatran.
@ Human: So yes while Metagross is still around it's not nearly in the same numbers, and he often dies too soon to stop the onslaught that's coming.