Done Scarlet and Violet Ability Banlist Update

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DHR-107

DHR-107

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Hey all!

It's that time again! We've all had a good chance now to play around with the new abilities that SV introduced us too, so now it's time to add the new abilities to the Ability Lists!

As far as I can find - the most up to date list is here:
Arena Trap
As One
Aura Break
Bad Dreams
Battle Bond
Chilling Neigh
Dark Aura
Dauntless Shield
Delta Stream
Desolate Land
Disguise
Dragon's Maw
Fairy Aura
Flower Gift
Forecast
Full Metal Body
Grim Neigh
Gulp Missile
Hunger Switch
Ice Face
Illusion
Imposter
Intrepid Sword
Moody
Multitype
Neuroforce
Power Construct
Primordial Sea
Prism Armor
RKS System
Schooling
Shadow Shield
Shadow Tag
Shields Down
Soul Heart
Stance Change
Teravolt
Transistor
Turboblaze
Unseen Fist
Victory Star
Wonder Guard
Zen Mode
These abilities are banned by default and should not be discussed barring exceptional cases. If you believe one of these abilities should be considered, you can make a post trying to explain why an exception is warranted in this specific case and if both the TL and Ability Leader agree, it will be allowed. If the TLT disagrees with the unbanning proposal, they should be considered fully banned and should not be further discussed.

Bulletproof
Color Change*
Defeatist
Dry Skin
Flash Fire
Fur Coat
Gorilla Tactics
Huge Power
Ice Scales
Libero*
Levitate
Lightning Rod
Magic Guard
Mimicry*
Motor Drive
Parental Bond
Protean*
Pure Power
Regenerator
Sap Sipper
Slow Start
Stall
Storm Drain
Truant
Volt Absorb
Water Absorb
Water Bubble

*These abilities can only be considered for an unban if the Ability stage is done before typing.
Beast Boost
Comatose
Drizzle
Drought
Electric Surge
Fluffy
Grassy Surge
Innards Out
Magic Bounce
Misty Surge
Prankster
Psychic Surge
Sand Spit
Sand Stream
Snow Warning
Speed Boost
Stamina
Steam Engine
Triage
Ball Fetch
Battery
Big Pecks
Friend Guard
Healer
Honey Gather
Illuminate
Pickup
Power Spot
Power of Alchemy
Propeller Tail
Receiver
Run Away
Stalwart
Symbiosis
Telepathy

As far as the list from here goes: https://www.serebii.net/scarletviolet/abilities.shtml I don't think there are too many ridiculous ones this time around.

For my opinions on where some of the stronger of these abilities should go:

Orichalcum Pulse & Hadron Engine - Legend Sig abilities are traditionally banned and I see no reason to not ban these. Two strong effects on top of each other.
Protosynthesis & Quark Drive - Banned unless we decide on making a Paradox CaP Pokemon
Beads/Sword/Tablet/Vessel of Ruin - Again, our quartet Legend abilities. While these all do various things, these should likely be Soft Banned or outright Banned. They all have potent effects and can warp our stats.
Commander - Flavour Only - Doubles ability used by Tatsugiri with Dondozo.
Costar - Flavour only - Doubles only ability used by Flamigo.
Earth Eater - Soft Ban. Ground Immunity and healing.
Good as Gold - If not outright banned, this should absolutely be Soft Banned. It's massively defining and powerful being able to ignore almost all forms status effects.
Purifying Salt - Again, likely Soft Banned as it has a very potent dual effect, blocking Status and giving a pseudo Ghost resist.
Supreme Overlord - I'm unsure with this ability, I think it could be fairly defining, but I am not sure how well Kingambit can use it. Primary Only?
Toxic Debris - Soft Banned. I think this one is fairly self explanatory. Free Toxic Spikes on hit is insanely strong, and Glimmora can already use it effectively.
Well-Baked Body - Soft Banned. Fire immunity plus a defence boost.
Zero to hero - Banned. Our only forme change ability this gen.

Most of the other abilities I feel are not broken in anyway (and likely have equivalents we've not ever talked about or are strictly worse than previous options [such as Seed Sower]) and I think they are the most balanced Pokemon have introduced for a long time. There isn't even an amazing ability stuck on a bad mon this time around.

Open to discussion on these as well - Especially from those with more relative meta experience than I do!
 
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I’d rate Good as Gold and Purifying Salt at around the same level of defining as Huge Power, so they should fall into the soft-ban list. I think Good as Gold is being made out to be stronger than it actually is (not to say it isn’t strong!), it should definitely just be soft banned, not fully banned. A part of the ability’s perceived strength has to be Gholdengo, with its amazing typing, coverage, stats, etc., so I don’t think it deserves to be fully banned, just soft banned. If anything, Purifying Salt is the stronger of the two.

Supreme Overlord and Toxic Debris should fall into the secondary ability banlist. Supreme Overload is a very strong ability, but it is ultimately situational; it would eat power budget but isn’t as defining as one would think. Kingambit has a lot going for it as a bulky Steel-type with priority already, so Supreme Overlord is very much the icing on the cake instead of the defining factor there. Toxic Debris is super overhyped. It is absolutely a great ability; however, there is a lot of removal in the meta, and it only triggers on physical hits. Add in the fact that there’s absorbers like Clodsire and Toxapex and tons and tons of boots users, and you can start to see why I don’t think Toxic Debris makes the soft ban cut. Keep it in secondary ban only.

The rest of the mentioned abilities should go into their respective places in flavor and fully banned.

I’ll now talk about some abilities that didn’t get mentioned yet:

Anger Shell: No bans, ability is super meh
Armor Tail: It’s the same as Dazzling and Queenly Majesty, no ban
Cud Chew: Not great, no ban
Earth Eater: Should be at the same level as the other immunity abilities, soft ban it.
Electromorphis: Super cool ability, can’t wait to use it, no bans pls
Guard Dog: Has the potential to be pretty great but I think it’s fine with no ban
Lingering Aroma: Wandering Spirit clone, no ban
Mycelium Might: would’ve been cool to have this one for Chromera, no ban
Opportunist: Situational but good, no ban
Rocky Payload: similar to steely spirit, no ban
Seed Sower: Grassy Surge is secondary banned, but Seed Sower is a good deal worse than Surge, so I think no ban is appropriate
Sharpness: Good but not great. No ban.
Thermal Exchange: Man idk about this one. Could be awesome on the right mon, but for now, no ban.
Well-Baked Body: It’s kinda like a better Flash Fire. Absolutely needs a soft ban.
Wind Power: Situational, to say the least. No ban.
Wind Rider: After learning about all the stuff this blocks, it’s on the same level as Bulletproof. Soft ban.
 
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Tablets/Sword/Vessel/Beads of Ruin: These are legendary signature abilities. Fully banned.
Wind Rider: There aren't too many relevant moves that this blocks (Bleakwind Storm, Hurricane, Heat Wave, and maybe Whirlwind), but the moves it does block are significant enough that this should get the Bulletproof treatment. Soft banned.
Good as Gold: This should absolutely be soft banned for obvious reasons. However, I'm really not a fan of fully banning this. In my opinion, an ability should only be fully banned if it falls under one of three categories:
  • The ability is the signature ability of a Legendary/Mythical Pokemon
  • The ability is mechanically designed to only work on the Pokemon that are supposed to get it (Form change abilities)
  • The ability is outright uncompetitive (Moody, Illusion, Wonder Guard)
None of these apply to Good as Gold. The first two are obviously not applying here, and while Good as Gold is a very strong ability, I can't say it's outright uncompetitive to the same degree that stuff like Illusion and Wonder Guard would be.
 
Talpr0ne said:
I don't have replying privileges in CAP Policy Review so I'm sending this as a DM.

I think soft-banning Good as Gold would be a mistake, because the ability is very similar to Magic Bounce, and arguably slightly inferior to it.
Nearly all moves blocked by Good as Gold are also blocked by Magic Bounce, but Magic Bounce is even more effective because it sends them back to incapacitate their user instead of just making them fail. There are a few moves that GaG blocks and MB doesn't, namely Memento, Trick and most notably Defog, but the latter effect is not that overbearing if the user is also not naturally immune to Rapid Spin, since in SV that is the more prevalent hazard removing move. And on the other hand Magic Bounce also blocks a few moves that GAG doesn't, namely entry hazards, making it have a arguably bigger impact on the hazards game (this time in favor of the one who wishes to prevent them rather than the one who wants to keep them up on the opposing field), as it will make hazards risky to place at best if the setter has a good matchup against the bouncer, to impossible at worst if the bouncer is bulky and has a good matchup spread against common setters.

Maybe the takeway from this is that Magic Bounce should also be soft banned, but the point is that it would be a mistake to treat Good as Gold as more warping when it just isn't the case in a vacuum, and when Good as Gold's unique perk of blocking Defog is dependent on the user being a Ghost type to truly make a impact.
Click to expand...

This was sent to me so posting for relevance.
 
The legendary sigs and flavor stuff are fair, but I also agree with Salt and Gold being soft banned, not hard banned.
 
Hey all!

We're looking to wrap this up within around 48 hours. Looking through what people have added to this thread the abilities will be assigned as follows:

Anger Shell - Free
Armor Tail - Free
Beads of Ruin - Banned - Legendary Sig
Commander - Free
Costar - Free
Cud Chew - Free
Earth Eater - Soft Banned - Immunity + Heal (Like Water/Volt Absorb)
Electromorphosis - Free
Good as Gold - Soft Banned - Almost unanimous in thread, powerful overall ability
Guard Dog - Free
Hadron Engine - Banned - Legendary Sig
Lingering Aroma - Free
Mycelium Might - Free
Opportunist - Free
Orichalcum Pulse - Banned - Legendary Sig
Protosynthesis - Secondary Ability Ban - Beast Boost analogue
Purifying Salt - Soft Banned - Status Immunity + Ghost resist
Quark Drive - Secondary Ability Ban - Beast Boost analogue
Rocky Payload - Free
Seed Sower - Free
Sharpness - Free
Supreme Overlord - Secondary Ability Ban - Could warp stats
Sword of Ruin - Banned - Legendary Sig
Tablets of Ruin - Banned - Legendary Sig
Thermal Exchange - Free
Toxic Debris - Secondary Ability Ban - Powerful standalone ability
Vessel of Ruin - Banned - Legendary Sig
Well-Baked Body - Soft Banned - Fire immunity + Defence Boost
Wind Power - Free
Wind Rider - Soft Banned - Bulletproof analogue
Zero to Hero - Banned - Forme Change

I've also added some reasoning to the above as well. I would also like people to consider Magic Bounce and see if there are any other abilities we would like to move around at this juncture.
 
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Going to talk about moving around some of the existing abilities, as I have no major disagreements with any of the newer ones (With the exception of a couple that I will get to in this post).

Magnet Pull: I second Darek's opinion on fully banning this given the inherently uncompetitive nature of trapping. I'm really not sure as to why this hasn't been done already.
Beast Boost/Protosynthesis/Quark Drive: This might be somewhat controversial, but I think that these three abilities should be fully banned on the basis of them being Legendary Signature abilities. Ultra Beasts and Paradox forms have basically always been treated as Legendary Pokemon in everything but name, so it feels rather odd to treat these any differently than we do for most of the other Legendary Signature abilities.
Sand Spit: This should be removed from the Secondary Ability banlist so that it's consistent with Seed Sower. This honestly doesn't even do that great of a job of setting up sand to begin with.
Big Pecks: This should be removed from flavor only, given that Defense drops are fairly relevant in CAP thanks to Astrolotl and Snaelstrom (And also Chien-Pao, but that's probably going to get banned before we start on the next process so it doesn't really fit into the equation). I understand that it's objectively inferior to Clear Body/White Smoke, but that's honestly a really poor reason to keep it in a list reserved for stuff that does literally nothing competitively relevant.
 
Commander may not actually be hard-coded, but it seems pretty clear that it's only supposed to be used on Tatsugiri alongside Dondozo. Would rather not have some weird interaction in a CAP Doubles OM for the sake of having a cute flavor ability.

Agree with Magic Bounce to soft-ban, Magnet Pull to full-ban, Costar to flavor-only, and Sand Spit to free.
 
Hey all, slightly later than scheduled:

Anger Shell - Free
Armor Tail - Free
Beads of Ruin - Banned - Legendary Sig
Commander - Banned - Potential issues elsewhere
Costar - Flavour Only
Cud Chew - Free
Earth Eater - Soft Banned - Immunity + Heal (Like Water/Volt Absorb)
Electromorphosis - Free
Good as Gold - Soft Banned - Almost unanimous in thread, powerful overall ability
Guard Dog - Free
Hadron Engine - Banned - Legendary Sig
Lingering Aroma - Free
Mycelium Might - Free
Opportunist - Free
Orichalcum Pulse - Banned - Legendary Sig
Protosynthesis - Secondary Ability Ban - Beast Boost analogue
Purifying Salt - Soft Banned - Status Immunity + Ghost resist
Quark Drive - Secondary Ability Ban - Beast Boost analogue
Rocky Payload - Free
Seed Sower - Free
Sharpness - Free
Supreme Overlord - Secondary Ability Ban - Could warp stats
Sword of Ruin - Banned - Legendary Sig
Tablets of Ruin - Banned - Legendary Sig
Thermal Exchange - Free
Toxic Debris - Secondary Ability Ban - Powerful standalone ability
Vessel of Ruin - Banned - Legendary Sig
Well-Baked Body - Soft Banned - Fire immunity + Defence Boost
Wind Power - Free
Wind Rider - Soft Banned - Bulletproof analogue
Zero to Hero - Banned - Forme Change

Other Ability Changes:

Big Pecks - Moved to Free from Flavour Only
Magic Bounce - Moved to Soft Banned from Free
Magnet Pull - Moved to Soft Banned from Free
Sand Spit - Moved to Free from Secondary Banned - Objectively worse than Sandstream, similar vein to Seed Sower which has not had any discussion

So here are those all important overall lists of abilities (anything NOT listed here is a "free ability" and can be suggested at any phase):

Arena Trap
As One
Aura Break
Bad Dreams
Battle Bond
Beads Of Ruin
Beast Boost *
Chilling Neigh
Commander
Dark Aura
Dauntless Shield
Delta Stream
Desolate Land
Disguise
Dragon's Maw
Fairy Aura
Flower Gift
Forecast
Full Metal Body
Grim Neigh
Gulp Missile
Hadron Engine
Hunger Switch
Ice Face
Illusion
Imposter
Intrepid Sword
Moody
Multitype
Neuroforce
Orichalcum Pulse
Power Construct
Primordial Sea
Prism Armor
Protosynthesis *
Quark Drive *
RKS System
Schooling
Shadow Shield
Shadow Tag
Shields Down
Soul Heart
Stance Change
Sword Of Ruin
Tablets Of Ruin
Teravolt
Transistor
Turboblaze
Unseen Fist
Vessel Of Ruin
Victory Star
Wonder Guard
Zen Mode
Zero To Hero

* These abilities will only be unbanned on a concept which is based around this ability - Such as an Ultra Beast or Paradox Pokemon
These abilities are banned by default and should not be discussed barring exceptional cases. If you believe one of these abilities should be considered, you can make a post trying to explain why an exception is warranted in this specific case and if both the TL and Ability Leader agree, it will be allowed. If the TLT disagrees with the unbanning proposal, they should be considered fully banned and should not be further discussed.

Bulletproof
Color Change*
Defeatist
Dry Skin
Earth Eater
Flash Fire
Fur Coat
Good As Gold
Gorilla Tactics
Huge Power
Ice Scales
Libero*
Levitate
Lightning Rod
Magic Bounce
Magic Guard
Magnet Pull
Mimicry*
Motor Drive
Parental Bond
Protean*
Pure Power
Purifying Salt
Regenerator
Sap Sipper
Slow Start
Stall
Storm Drain
Truant
Volt Absorb
Water Absorb
Water Bubble
Well Baked Body
Wind Rider

*These abilities can only be considered for an unban if the Ability stage is done before typing.
Comatose
Drizzle
Drought
Electric Surge
Fluffy
Grassy Surge
Innards Out
Misty Surge
Prankster
Psychic Surge
Sand Stream
Snow Warning
Speed Boost
Stamina
Steam Engine
Supreme Overlord
Toxic Debris
Triage
Ball Fetch
Battery
Costar
Friend Guard
Healer
Honey Gather
Illuminate
Pickup
Power Spot
Power of Alchemy
Propeller Tail
Receiver
Run Away
Stalwart
Symbiosis
Telepathy

And with that we are all up to date on abilities! Please drop me a message or tag me on discord if you see anything wrong with these that hasn't been mentioned!
 
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