Format Discussion Scarlet/Violet Random Battle Sets

Celever

i am town
is a Community Contributor
I just wanted to make a few observations:

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Isn't it odd to have a Pokémon and its Paradox form (in this case, Hydreigon and Iron Jugulis) on the same team? These two in particular, as they've got similar types, moves and stats...
Paradox Pokémon are completely separate species as compared to the Pokémon they are thematically based on. You cannot have formes (e.g. you can't have multiple colours of Squawkabilly) on your team because they are the same species, but Iron Jugulis and Hydreigon only share an appearance and not a species. Moltres-Galar is about as similar to Hydreigon as Iron Jugulis is -- just a bit of a worse moveset, better ability, and more SpDef traded for SpAtk -- they just look dissimilar so you wouldn't note it as odd.
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I think Kingambit should rather get Defiant as his ability when put together with Houndstone; given how powerful Supreme Overlord and Last Respect can be respectively in the battle's last phases, I fear that the advantage given by their combination would be too high.

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Finally, I think having three Heavy-Duty Boots users on the same team might give the player an unfair advantage, as well, but this is the smallest inconvenience I've noticed, to be honest.
Because teams are generated sequentially (i.e. one at a time) this level of synergy between Pokémon is just not possible. It could, at best, happen 50% of the time (e.g. if Kingambit generates after Houndstone it could happen, but if it generates before then it couldn't). While we make exceptions for very important cases where the 50% gen chance is worth the synergy, such as a Pokémon that can have Chlorophyll almost always getting it if there is a Drought user generated before it on the team even if it would ordinarily get a different ability, having this degree of synergy between individual Pokémon who will very rarely get rolled together would honestly just create bugs lol.

And on top of that, we would never make a Pokémon or team worse than it could be. The philosophy of random battles is that every Pokémon is at its absolute maximum capacity, particularly in current gen where we have level balancing based on winrates. Last Respects and Supreme Overlord are indeed both very strong at the end of the game, and sometimes facing a team with that level of broken is the nature of rands. Item generation is currently done independently of team members and that is very unlikely to change due to the process of operations, but it has been noted as a recurring problem where sometimes items are too common. However, if it were possible to develop item synergy, we wouldn't limit the amount of HDB for being too strong, but rather probably limit the amount of choice items for being too weak.
 
I just wanted to make a few observations:

View attachment 476953
Isn't it odd to have a Pokémon and its Paradox form (in this case, Hydreigon and Iron Jugulis) on the same team? These two in particular, as they've got similar types, moves and stats...

View attachment 476965
I think Kingambit should rather get Defiant as his ability when put together with Houndstone; given how powerful Supreme Overlord and Last Respect can be respectively in the battle's last phases, I fear that the advantage given by their combination would be too high.

View attachment 476995View attachment 476996View attachment 476997
Finally, I think having three Heavy-Duty Boots users on the same team might give the player an unfair advantage, as well, but this is the smallest inconvenience I've noticed, to be honest.
the paradox forms are different pokemon and don't fall under dupes unlike forms of other pokemon like raichu for example
 
And on top of that, we would never make a Pokémon or team worse than it could be. The philosophy of random battles is that every Pokémon is at its absolute maximum capacity, particularly in current gen where we have level balancing based on winrates. Last Respects and Supreme Overlord are indeed both very strong at the end of the game, and sometimes facing a team with that level of broken is the nature of rands. Item generation is currently done independently of team members and that is very unlikely to change due to the process of operations, but it has been noted as a recurring problem where sometimes items are too common. However, if it were possible to develop item synergy, we wouldn't limit the amount of HDB for being too strong, but rather probably limit the amount of choice items for being too weak.
So, if Supreme Overlord exists and is the absolute maximum capacity, why the defiant set stealth rock (sets who doesn't exists in strategy btw) is here too? Did u put some Houndstone without Last Respects or without scarf?
 
So, if Supreme Overlord exists and is the absolute maximum capacity, why the defiant set stealth rock (sets who doesn't exists in strategy btw) is here too? Did u put some Houndstone without Last Respects or without scarf?
Several notes, the most important of which is that randbat sets are not beholden to tier strategy. Indeed, the meta is sufficiently different that they completely diverge in places. Furthermore, variance in sets has some value in randbats, so we (softly) prefer sets to have more than 4 moves. Of course, variability can also be optimal.

Abilities are generally generated with a rating system, in which both defiant and supreme overlord are rated quite high (as they are both strong). Defiant is rated slightly lower, and thus has half the chance of SO of appearing.

If you prefer fixed sets that adhere more to optimality, you might enjoy Battle Factory more, which is a form of randomized smogtier battle.
 
Paradox Pokémon are completely separate species as compared to the Pokémon they are thematically based on. You cannot have formes (e.g. you can't have multiple colours of Squawkabilly) on your team because they are the same species, but Iron Jugulis and Hydreigon only share an appearance and not a species. Moltres-Galar is about as similar to Hydreigon as Iron Jugulis is -- just a bit of a worse moveset, better ability, and more SpDef traded for SpAtk -- they just look dissimilar so you wouldn't note it as odd.

Because teams are generated sequentially (i.e. one at a time) this level of synergy between Pokémon is just not possible. It could, at best, happen 50% of the time (e.g. if Kingambit generates after Houndstone it could happen, but if it generates before then it couldn't). While we make exceptions for very important cases where the 50% gen chance is worth the synergy, such as a Pokémon that can have Chlorophyll almost always getting it if there is a Drought user generated before it on the team even if it would ordinarily get a different ability, having this degree of synergy between individual Pokémon who will very rarely get rolled together would honestly just create bugs lol.

And on top of that, we would never make a Pokémon or team worse than it could be. The philosophy of random battles is that every Pokémon is at its absolute maximum capacity, particularly in current gen where we have level balancing based on winrates. Last Respects and Supreme Overlord are indeed both very strong at the end of the game, and sometimes facing a team with that level of broken is the nature of rands. Item generation is currently done independently of team members and that is very unlikely to change due to the process of operations, but it has been noted as a recurring problem where sometimes items are too common. However, if it were possible to develop item synergy, we wouldn't limit the amount of HDB for being too strong, but rather probably limit the amount of choice items for being too weak.
Celever Right, thank you for taking the time to reply. : )
 
can collision course be removed from koraidon? i don't think it being boosted on super effective is worth the -20 drop from CC when it's probably killing super effectively anyway
 

Lady Writer

on the tv
is a Tiering Contributor
can collision course be removed from koraidon? i don't think it being boosted on super effective is worth the -20 drop from CC when it's probably killing super effectively anyway
collision course doesn’t have the negative effects that cc does, and outrage has the same power as cc if needed. fighting and dragon hit a lot of the same things neutrally so it’s better not to take the defense drops from cc if you need more power. collision course is still an amazing move, no need to replace it
 

pokeblade101

is a Community Contributor
RBTT Champion
can collision course be removed from koraidon? i don't think it being boosted on super effective is worth the -20 drop from CC when it's probably killing super effectively anyway
This could possibly be valid if Koraidon becomes noticeably weaker from getting its level lowered but as for right now, I have never thought I needed Close Combat so i will say it isn't necessary.
 

Meowscarada!

Banned deucer.
Cosmic power, stored power, body press, recovery arceus psychic may not be the best idea, especially with tera steel on top.

This set in randbats can get out of hand at turn 1 if you lead unfortunate
Steel type tera makes is near impossible to deal with after it gains plus 2 defenses if you dont have a real answer


Also last respect scarf just wins if you dont have any outspeeds or normals
 
Cosmic power, stored power, body press, recovery arceus psychic may not be the best idea, especially with tera steel on top.

This set in randbats can get out of hand at turn 1 if you lead unfortunate
Steel type tera makes is near impossible to deal with after it gains plus 2 defenses if you dont have a real answer


Also last respect scarf just wins if you dont have any outspeeds or normals
We certainly don't give pokemon bad sets to balance them. If it turns out that they are indeed too strong (which it certainly seems like they are) the winrate data will objectively show this, and their level will be reduced until they're balanced.
 
We certainly don't give pokemon bad sets to balance them. If it turns out that they are indeed too strong (which it certainly seems like they are) the winrate data will objectively show this, and their level will be reduced until they're balanced.
I understand if this cannot be answered, but are there any mons or types of sets that have an exceedingly win rate thus far?
 

bilb owo

Banned deucer.
As someone who occasionally becomes competitive about randbats ladder I have for a while hated the existence of the moody glalie and now scovillain sets. I understand that randbats inherently has a lot more luck than constructed formats, however, the variance in how a few turns of good luck can immediately end the game just feels bad.

I don’t think that moody in general should be removed from the sets pool because I do enjoy being able to play with some of the otherwise banned mechanics in a less competitive meta (e.g. dynamax/ zacian-crowned in gen8), however, the current sets could be altered to drastically lower the rng aspect. In my opinion it is the combination of protect and substitute with moody that makes the mechanic take control completely out of the opposing player’s hands. For example if you protect into a speed raise you can all of a sudden continue to sub/ tect for a huge amount of turns (even more with scovillain leech seed) to very often get enough boosts to just win the game. I do not think moody itself is the issue due to pokemon like octillery who with a lower speed and worse support movepool would often be just 4 attacks, letting you even with relatively bad luck switch into a counter to beat it without them fishing for the appropriate boosts with chained protects and substitutes.

I find the current state of scovillain sad to play against and often sad to use when moody lowers all the relevant stats. The Pokémon has a great offensive typing and movepool so making the set purely offensive drastically lowers the variance of it winning/ losing games with no skill or outplay element and should make the player experience much better.
 

A Cake Wearing A Hat

moist and crusty
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Random Battle Lead
As someone who occasionally becomes competitive about randbats ladder I have for a while hated the existence of the moody glalie and now scovillain sets. I understand that randbats inherently has a lot more luck than constructed formats, however, the variance in how a few turns of good luck can immediately end the game just feels bad.

I don’t think that moody in general should be removed from the sets pool because I do enjoy being able to play with some of the otherwise banned mechanics in a less competitive meta (e.g. dynamax/ zacian-crowned in gen8), however, the current sets could be altered to drastically lower the rng aspect. In my opinion it is the combination of protect and substitute with moody that makes the mechanic take control completely out of the opposing player’s hands. For example if you protect into a speed raise you can all of a sudden continue to sub/ tect for a huge amount of turns (even more with scovillain leech seed) to very often get enough boosts to just win the game. I do not think moody itself is the issue due to pokemon like octillery who with a lower speed and worse support movepool would often be just 4 attacks, letting you even with relatively bad luck switch into a counter to beat it without them fishing for the appropriate boosts with chained protects and substitutes.

I find the current state of scovillain sad to play against and often sad to use when moody lowers all the relevant stats. The Pokémon has a great offensive typing and movepool so making the set purely offensive drastically lowers the variance of it winning/ losing games with no skill or outplay element and should make the player experience much better.
No action is planned to be taken against moody. If Scovillain has over 61.5% win rate in the end of the month win rate slate, action will be considered against scovillain, but will not be confirmed.
 
I would like to discuss sub seed. We gained 5 new sub seeders this gen (Tropius, Scovillain, H-Electrode, Brambleghast, and Arboliva) (relative to gen 8 randbats) and while I could talk about all of them I'll talk about the ones I find rather strong first.

Scovillain- It certainly lives up to its name. Sub Seed Moody? This is certainly a combination. Glalie has ways of defeating it. It's still largely at the mercy of Moody rng and sub protect can still screw you if the opponent has a reasonably fast mon or priority. If Scovillain comes in on a mon that is threatened by Flamethrower, it basically gets up a sub for free. It has the special attack and base power to actually threaten a fire-weak mon. It also fares well against many mons that arent strong to begin with. If I get it, I win the game almost every time. If I'm against it, I have to hope I have a way of dealing with it. And what type is immune to Leech Seed? The same one weak to fire. Tropius has a similar issue but I'll get there when I get there. So, who beats this thing? The first answer that comes to mind is Unaware. Well, I can say from experience Quagsire doesn't. I 1v1d it and after that you can imagine how things went. Skeledirge can be hampered by Tera Water and Sub to block burns (all while farming boosts), DonBozo does beat it (I think) assuming Scovillain doesnt get the right boosts. I have no experience with Clod but I have low expectations. What else might help? Magic Guard? Nobody has that in this meta. Not randbats' fault of course, just incidental pool problems, not that Zam beats Moody anyway. Magic Bounce, which at least there are 2 mons with, but it's dicey at best. Maybe Rapid Spinners can sort of try? I haven't had any luck with that, though other factors usually were preventing it from being useful, and you waste time with a 50 BP non-stab move anyway that at most helps you outspeed if Moody has not screwed you. But if you get your 2 free turns of boosts (or get any way of firing off the Leech Seed) that automatically adds to the snowball. So, yea, I think moody leech seed is way too much.

Tropius- Basically the opposite problem of Scovillain. Instead of threatening the target out, it sits on it and doesn't die. It's already pretty bulky, and can spam Harvest to assist its Leech Seeds, which when combined with Sub give it more opportunities. Now, there are some mons that do beat it at least. It's fairly slow, is quad-weak to ice and still weak to other good offensive types*, hits like a wet noodle to mons that aren't weak to it, and will run out of pp eventually if you get counterstalled. You can also Toxic it if you are fast, though because of the transfer purge there are very few mons that even get it and one of them (salazzle) is already sub seed without being sub seed*. Same rules with abilities also apply (I won't restate them). But again, it has a move super effective on the type immune to Leech Seed, and can flinch if a mon happens to be slower than it. Speaking of slower, Spinners can't do much if they aren't breaking the sub and the seeds get back up. And to address the *, what is the tera type? Steel. Obviously you have to use your tera wisely, but if Steel is no longer threatened, you can go back to sitting on everything. I do have some success in beating Tropius, but it required game-long outplaying of it, such as one game where I managed to bait the tera early. Counter subbing does work if you are faster and not weak to flying, at least, but I don't recall there being too many of those. It's still a crapshoot, though.

Brambleghast- I like the idea. I really do. And it's far lower in annoyance than the previous two mons. Instead of Protect, it gets to attack and protect at the same time with Phantom Force, letting it have either Rapid Spin or Power Whip. The issue comes with its speed and good defensive typing for a sub seeder. It can't be spun on, has 2 immunities, and Dark's presence has waned in the advent of the transfer purge. It's not weak to U-turn either. Tera doesn't really matter for this one. I'm pretty sure it just gets its stabs which don't really do anything notably egregious. I'm ok with this one on paper. I have been able to beat them a reasonable amount of the time, I just wanted to mention it.

Arboliva- I haven't experienced this one yet but from what I have heard (if it is accurate) it's like an alternative to Tropius. I don't recall its tera type, but if it has Harvest that is self explanatory and Seed Sower can be an issue depending on what attacks the opponent can use because then it is regaining a lot of HP per turn.

H-Electrode- Its only real notably annoying trait is its speed, but at least basically any grass type walls the crap out of it and because it is fast and weak to bug a U-turn will hinder its progress. I figured I would just mention it since it was new.

Essentially, I find the playstyle rather dominant if you don't have one of the limited available ways of dealing with it. I think in the very least many a few more faster sub mons might help somewhat? I would love to see Scovillain's win rates.

Not to mention half these mons are mid at best and are gonna get comparatively stronger as they drop tiers.

oh, also, my apologies for the incidental double post on scovillain. as you can clearly see, i was writing that entire thing concurrently with when the other post was made, so i did not see it until after the fact.
 
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bilb owo

Banned deucer.
No action is planned to be taken against moody. If Scovillain has over 61.5% win rate in the end of the month win rate slate, action will be considered against scovillain, but will not be confirmed.
The issue is not the win rate. The issue is that whether or not you win is completely in the hands of rng- the set fluctuates between awful and beyond broken depending on what gets boosted. Even though this is a relatively rng dependent tier, the combination of substitute, protect and moody is beyond uncompetitive. It is very easy to just adjust the moves.
 

A Cake Wearing A Hat

moist and crusty
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Random Battle Lead
Aside from the specific condition I have outlined, no action on Scovillain, Moody, or SubSeeders in general will be performed. Please refer to and follow the rules of this thread in the future:

Please do not post:
- One-liners. This includes suggestions without any backup reasoning.
- Complaints of illegal Pokemon or sets.
- Requests to add the National Dex.
- Posts complaining about unfairness, demanding certain Pokemon should be "banned" from the format, or complaining about hax.
- Screenshots of movesets that are not actually bad.

Any posts not following this rule in the future will be deleted.
 

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