The council is currently voting on lead Dugtrio and Gothitelle in Gen 9 Random Battle.
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Format Discussion Scarlet/Violet Random Battle Sets
- Thread starter A Cake Wearing A Hat
- Start date
If being honest, Bisharp and possibly primeape should be added on randbats, we have a similar thing w worse mon (dunsparce+ Dudunsparce) but not with overall better mons? plus bisharp is just as good as kingambit on normal tiers too
also if being honest removing luvdisc would be cool, mons just too trash
also if being honest removing luvdisc would be cool, mons just too trash
Bisharp doesn't have any good Dark moves and therefore won't be considered until it gets Knock Off back, and Primeape was voted on by the Council this week and ultimately decided to not be added due to its similarity to Annihilape in function. Dunsparce is in Randbats and is the Coil user of the two because of its significantly higher Special Defense than Dudunsparce.
We are not allowed to remove any fully evolved Pokemon under any circumstances.
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Removing luvdisc opens a can of worms because then people will demand just removing bad Pokemon (although I really wouldnt miss luvdisc and unown lol). Luvdisc will be serviceable if toxic and scald return anyway, so just a little patience.
Is there any way that Luvdisc can just be given some better-distributed EVs and a boosting nature? I know that's absolutely not what's normally done, but neither is allowing a Pokémon to have a ton of different levels or refusing to let it be the sixth poke in the list, and that's what Zoroark is allowed to have so that it can be made viable. And there's precedent; Nihilego's EVs were messed with in prior generations in order to make it more viable.
The only other alternative is to nerf literally every other pokemon into the ground level-wise, since we can't push Luvdisc beyond L100.
We've discussed both of these options as a room and deemed neither of them to be feasible. Nihilego isn't really a good precedent here; its special defense evs were lowered by 12 and not redistributed anywhere else and thats literally all that it has.
As for lowering everything else, we tried that back in gen 7 to nerf Castform and it shook up the meta very hard. It was never reverted, but we don't want to do that ever again, especially not with winrate levelling.
I'm sorry, Luvdisc just isn't salvageable in our system until it gets moves back. End of story.
Also, ideas on Mew.
I think it would be an improvement to the bulky support set to include the chance to roll a pivoting move or a few different attacking moves. This is Mew, which can learn any TM and is supposed to be unwallable by immunities, yet as soon as it throws rocks off, you know you can bring in a dark-type with impunity and just wall it. A Krookodile should not be able to switch in fearlessly to a Mew under any circumstance until it's revealed all four moves; I think this artificially hurts Mew's win rate.
I would suggest adding U-Turn, Play Rough, and Hydro Pump to the movepool for that set. It doesn't change much, but having the possibility for two attacks, including attacks that hit on the physical OR the special side, will make that Mew set harder to wall, which should help its winrate.
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I would also suggest expanding the pool of moves for the other two roles. The Setup Sweeper has SD and "Brave Bird", "Close Combat", "Flare Blitz", "Leech Life", "Psychic Fangs". I don't think there's a good reason to not allow Play Rough, Gunk Shot, Earthquake, Stone Edge, or Liquidation to spawn as well (Close Combat remains a forced move). It makes Mew harder to wall which, again, should help it.
It could also do with the addition of either Trailblaze or Dragon Dance (the latter obviously replacing Swords Dance). Mew is fast, but not THAT fast, and DD as an alternative to SD makes it much harder to predict.
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Finally, the fast bulky setup ("Aura Sphere", "Dazzling Gleam", "Earth Power", "Fire Blast", "Nasty Plot", "Psyshock", "Shadow Ball") is great and all, but it could really, really use some more moves. to make it harder to predict what coverage it has. Thunderbolt, Hydro Pump, Flash Cannon, Leaf Storm, Draco Meteor, Power Gem, and Flash Cannon could make it much, much more difficult to predict. When I see my opponent show up with a Mew, I should be wondering "oh man, which of my pokes does this thing not have super-effective coverage for?", and I think it'll drastically improve Mew's chances to make it harder to plan around midgame.
Just my thoughts, thanks for listening.
I think it would be an improvement to the bulky support set to include the chance to roll a pivoting move or a few different attacking moves. This is Mew, which can learn any TM and is supposed to be unwallable by immunities, yet as soon as it throws rocks off, you know you can bring in a dark-type with impunity and just wall it. A Krookodile should not be able to switch in fearlessly to a Mew under any circumstance until it's revealed all four moves; I think this artificially hurts Mew's win rate.
I would suggest adding U-Turn, Play Rough, and Hydro Pump to the movepool for that set. It doesn't change much, but having the possibility for two attacks, including attacks that hit on the physical OR the special side, will make that Mew set harder to wall, which should help its winrate.
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I would also suggest expanding the pool of moves for the other two roles. The Setup Sweeper has SD and "Brave Bird", "Close Combat", "Flare Blitz", "Leech Life", "Psychic Fangs". I don't think there's a good reason to not allow Play Rough, Gunk Shot, Earthquake, Stone Edge, or Liquidation to spawn as well (Close Combat remains a forced move). It makes Mew harder to wall which, again, should help it.
It could also do with the addition of either Trailblaze or Dragon Dance (the latter obviously replacing Swords Dance). Mew is fast, but not THAT fast, and DD as an alternative to SD makes it much harder to predict.
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Finally, the fast bulky setup ("Aura Sphere", "Dazzling Gleam", "Earth Power", "Fire Blast", "Nasty Plot", "Psyshock", "Shadow Ball") is great and all, but it could really, really use some more moves. to make it harder to predict what coverage it has. Thunderbolt, Hydro Pump, Flash Cannon, Leaf Storm, Draco Meteor, Power Gem, and Flash Cannon could make it much, much more difficult to predict. When I see my opponent show up with a Mew, I should be wondering "oh man, which of my pokes does this thing not have super-effective coverage for?", and I think it'll drastically improve Mew's chances to make it harder to plan around midgame.
Just my thoughts, thanks for listening.
Unpredictability is definitely a plus, it's true, but not when it comes at the cost of consistency. Pretty much none of these coverage moves hit targets that Mew needs to deal with on a regular basis; also, adding the moves you requested to Support Mew especially would allow Assault Vest Mew or 3 Attacks Leftovers Taunt Mew to exist, neither of which are particularly desirable or good.
As for the special set, in particular, adding all of those coverage moves would create several, *several* mew variants that are completely walled by Steel or can't hit Dark with anything higher than an 80 BP neutral coverage move. Mew needs the coverage options it already has, and giving it more would make it extremely inconsistent; that's not the kind of unpredictability we want.
Dragon Dance was actually on mew until recently; it was removed due to Mew being rather weak and needing the +2 attack more than the +1 speed. Its winrate has been improved as a result of this change from our analytics.
I'll consider a couple of the coverage moves on the setup sets, mainly Thunderbolt, Gunk Shot, Earthquake, and Hydro Pump, but i wouldn't expect too much to come out of it. The staff might not end up liking it.
e: probably adding u-turn to support, hydro pump/tera water to plot, no other changes. still subject to change. not been long to discuss
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Oof, three attacks + taunt + lefties is... uhh... not a set I'd recommend. I definitely don't understand the intricacies of how exactly the moves get assigned well enough. Okay, fair, thank you.
Honestly just u-turn and hydro pump to their respective sets is already huge.
And, question: is it possible to broaden the coverage moves allowed for Mew, keep its tera types broad, and still force it to keep a Fighting-type move? I'm supposing that it's not possible, but I'm not sure.
the tera type's what does the forcing, unfortunately. sometimes it gotta be used as a tool more than a gameplay mechanic in rands haha
Theres a zoroark in the same screenshot. It was caused by zoroark. It is a visual glitch most likely unless you somehow have a replay to prove it was lvl 88?
is zamazenta supposed to be level 88? that seems way too high
i don't have the replay unfortunately, but even if it was caused by zoroark it wasn't a visual glitch - the zamazenta was never in zoroark illusion slot, and it dealt 50% to the opponent's tornadus-t with close combat on a non-critical hit, which isn't possible with a regularly-leveled zama but is at level 88
i'm trying to roll zama again right now for further proof but having bad luck lol - i'll edit in the replay if i manage it
Yeah, it is a known issue, it can occur when a Pokemon that is prevented from leading (like Zamazenta) and Zoroark are on the same team. It will be fixed shortly.
is zamazenta supposed to be level 88? that seems way too high
I just had a game where my lead was Masquerain and the opponent's lead was Galar Articuno, giving it an immediate Competitive +2 Spc Attack due to the Intimidate. I lost 3 mons to this as a result; I feel lucky it wasn't all 6. I'm guessing there might not be anything that can be done, but it seems pretty bad when the lead is an Intimidate user against a Defiant/Competitive 'mon.
Tough luck, there, unfortunately. We can't do anything about it unless you want to prevent Lead Intimidate entirely.
First of all, even if it didn’t well in my game, I think Scovillain’s set should be remade, it’s stats aren’t really appropriate for its set.
Also, in that game, while I had a sub setter, m’y Sawsbuck had the Sap Sipper ability which I believe is inferior to Chlorophyll
Also, in that game, while I had a sub setter, m’y Sawsbuck had the Sap Sipper ability which I believe is inferior to Chlorophyll
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Sawbuck generated before Koraidon, and therefore there was absolutely no way for the sawbuck to tell that it should've been Chlorophyll. Pokemon generate in order.
Scovillain's doing fine. It's not like it has the movepool for anything else unless you really want it to be an extremely inconsistent sun setter that either does nothing and dies or wins singlehandedly, which doesn't seem like much of an improvement over Moody.
Being a moderately fast subseeder that can threaten Grasses is valid enough. Being a choice item user is also something it's barely capable of.
My bad I thought the lead generated first
Ah, if Koraidon was the lead, we may be looking at something different: ability ratings. Even if Chlorophyll is available as an ability, it's equally rated to Sap Sipper, and therefore there's a chance both will appear even with a sun setter. That's my bad.
Unfortunately, there's not much changing this unless we reject sap sipper as an abolility if the team has a sun setter, which I can see being detrimental to several pokemon
Hey! Made a post earlier, but was redirected here. Post was on the following issue: Some pokemon have STAB-tera types but are way too slow for them to be good at all. Slow pokemon really value a tera type that changes their typing to surprise the opponent and resist moves they initially would be weak to, see the Tera-Steel Tropius & Tera-Fairy Garganacl. However, very slow pokemon occasionally get STAB-tera types, but they are way too slow and offensively middling to ever really want to tera that pokemon.
In particular, Tera-Fire Torkoal, Tera-Grass Appletun, and Tera-Electric Pincurchin are rarely useful as opposed to sets that change their typing. In most games I use or play against these mons, its very easy to find a switch-in that can handle their stab moves, and not having the option to swap types really hurts the defensive flexiblity of these mons as opposed to other defensive mons that can tera into a different type. This is especially true when you get these mons in monotype random battles, where they mostly feel like sacks. There may be other mons that fit this archetype, but those are the ones I can name that have been the most personally frustrating.
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Some suggestions for other tera types:
Torkoal - Tera Grass (can resist water and ground which allows it to come in on other weather-setters & have access to STAB-Solar Beam), Tera Dragon(already exists in randbats but could be the lone type decently like tropius is always tera steel), Tera Fighting (resists rock and gains STAB-Body Press)
Appletun - Tera Steel (already exists, but is so good it could really be the lone-tera set; immune to Poison, resists Bug, Dragon, Flying, Ice, With Thick Fat it becomes an incredible Ice wall for both Mono-Grass & Mono-Dragon, as well as not being weak to Fire still), Tera Fairy (resists Bug, immune to Dragon moves but can spam them, amazing at dealing with opposing Dragons), Tera Poison (resists Poison, Fairy, and Bug while being immune to toxic making it an excellent wall with leech seed or recover)
Pincurchin - Tera Grass (resists ground, allowing it to spam Water moves more freely, resists water allowing it to come in on water types more easily to threaten with electric attacks), Tera Ghost (prevents rapid spin on the spikes sets, ghost is good defensive typing, has sucker punch to KO opposing ghosts), Tera Steel (allows it to come in on Indeedee and Rillaboom to remove their terrain, steel resists many things and if it got recover would be very annoying to deal with)
Side note: Pincurchin should get recover, makes all these sets really good, awesome to repeatedly get hazards up/repeatedly go for discharge paras, allows it to be a decent wall to certain mons. Right now its practically a sack that just spams hazards/sucker punch before it dies in 2 hits.
In particular, Tera-Fire Torkoal, Tera-Grass Appletun, and Tera-Electric Pincurchin are rarely useful as opposed to sets that change their typing. In most games I use or play against these mons, its very easy to find a switch-in that can handle their stab moves, and not having the option to swap types really hurts the defensive flexiblity of these mons as opposed to other defensive mons that can tera into a different type. This is especially true when you get these mons in monotype random battles, where they mostly feel like sacks. There may be other mons that fit this archetype, but those are the ones I can name that have been the most personally frustrating.
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Some suggestions for other tera types:
Torkoal - Tera Grass (can resist water and ground which allows it to come in on other weather-setters & have access to STAB-Solar Beam), Tera Dragon(already exists in randbats but could be the lone type decently like tropius is always tera steel), Tera Fighting (resists rock and gains STAB-Body Press)
Appletun - Tera Steel (already exists, but is so good it could really be the lone-tera set; immune to Poison, resists Bug, Dragon, Flying, Ice, With Thick Fat it becomes an incredible Ice wall for both Mono-Grass & Mono-Dragon, as well as not being weak to Fire still), Tera Fairy (resists Bug, immune to Dragon moves but can spam them, amazing at dealing with opposing Dragons), Tera Poison (resists Poison, Fairy, and Bug while being immune to toxic making it an excellent wall with leech seed or recover)
Pincurchin - Tera Grass (resists ground, allowing it to spam Water moves more freely, resists water allowing it to come in on water types more easily to threaten with electric attacks), Tera Ghost (prevents rapid spin on the spikes sets, ghost is good defensive typing, has sucker punch to KO opposing ghosts), Tera Steel (allows it to come in on Indeedee and Rillaboom to remove their terrain, steel resists many things and if it got recover would be very annoying to deal with)
Side note: Pincurchin should get recover, makes all these sets really good, awesome to repeatedly get hazards up/repeatedly go for discharge paras, allows it to be a decent wall to certain mons. Right now its practically a sack that just spams hazards/sucker punch before it dies in 2 hits.
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Hi. Thanks for the suggestions - few things here.
-The staff have discussed your suggestions. Tera Grass Appletun was viewed as honestly not as bad as you're making it out to be; mono Grass with Thick Fat is a pretty good defensive typing, and it has the ability to increase power as well. That will stay for now. However, we are going to add Tera Grass to Torkoal and remove Tera Fire.
-Pincurchin's an interesting case; for one, it always has Shuca Berry, and always having Shuca Berry means that having teras to flip weakness to Ground is actually completely unnecessary. In addition, adding a Tera option just for Rillaboom and Indeedee is very niche; the scenario where you'd get either of those against a Pincurchin is astronomically unlikely, so it's not worth dedicating a Tera to it. Tera Ghost is interesting and i'll consider that.
-Pincurchin actually doesn't have Recover on purpose right now. If we gave it Recover, it would a) never have both spikes and tspikes on the same set, and b) sometimes get neither spikes nor tspikes on a set. Neither of those are desirable scenarios, at all, so it's best to stick with its current five moves to at least guarantee one hazard at minimum. There's no way around this.
Just adding a note, as well, that when feasible, we prefer tera type variety! Tera Steel on tropius is standout, because a Grass/Flying truly just has no option even remotely as good as Steel. But, if there's other options out there that are good, we try to use 'em.
I'll consider additional Teras on Appletun, as well, alongside Grass and Steel. Thanks.
Appreciate the thoughts, considerations and changes. Just want to view my thoughts and where I disagree. I still don't like Tera Grass Appletun in concept or practice. Any offensive usefulness you'd get out of it (which is not much grass is resisted by so many pokemon) would be just as easily dealt out by repeatedly spamming Apple Acid, probably one of the best moves in the game to spam on paper. And while Thick Fat Grass is a good defensive typing, I really think the best defensive Teras are the one's that kinda uno reverse card the opponent. For something like Tera Ground Gogoat, its gaining stab on another move that is supereffective against a lot of the types that would be threatening you and shedding the weaknesses that would normally prevent you from living and hitting back. For something like Tera Fairy Garganacl, its shedding weaknesses entirely and gaining a massive wall in a type your opponent's team might not be prepared for (good if you see your opponent has something like Weavile that would hate being walled and the only fairy breaker is a steel type that gets salt cured everytime it comes out). Most things that are threatening appletun as a grass/dragon are still threatening it as a pure grass (poison, bug, flying, toxic) and youre not necessarily getting a great answer to the weaknesses you do shed (ice/fairy). The only reason I could marginally see it being ok is if you wanted it as a good water-type-with-ice-coverage answer, which even then having it tera into water or even dragon would make it better defensively, partially since you shed more weaknesses. Tera grass isn't really answering anything else nor is it ever great offensively except on teams that are already overwhelmingly weak to grass in the first place, which at that point you might not even need to tera to exploit. You can take this all with a grain of salt, but I would consider strongly how useful it really is. There's a lot of slow pokemon that also tera into a stab type that I didn't mention, usually because I could see how it would be useful offensively and/or defensively. That is not the case for the mons I mentioned.
On pincurchin, what you said is pretty fair. I will add I wouldn't mind getting a hazard-less Pincurchin, but perhaps I'm the exception. A pincurchin without hazards is effectively a worse Bellibolt, but still there's usefulness there. A Dachsbun is usually worse than a Scream Tail, but having a good wish-passer that's Fairy is always pretty good. In the same way, a discharge spammer with some longevity is almost always good. But who knows I'm not sure if it even has the bulk to get much use out of recover.
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https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9randombattle-1847476152
There is reason why tera is fundamentally unhealthy for the metagame.
Im not to say the moveset to be removed or anything, but these kind of 'boostmons' are hard to take down already, and they can be literally impossible to kill with a easy tera.
Tera does not help too much defensively and help obnoxiously on offense. Both HO sweepers and Bulky sweepers.
Tera just adds an unprecedented level of luck in a mode already fullfilled with luck.
They make some pokemon better, but they also introduces unnecessary luck.
Hope that at least they might take consider a ban on tera in this format.
Personally feel likes tera type reveal probably will be okay.
There is reason why tera is fundamentally unhealthy for the metagame.
Im not to say the moveset to be removed or anything, but these kind of 'boostmons' are hard to take down already, and they can be literally impossible to kill with a easy tera.
Tera does not help too much defensively and help obnoxiously on offense. Both HO sweepers and Bulky sweepers.
Tera just adds an unprecedented level of luck in a mode already fullfilled with luck.
They make some pokemon better, but they also introduces unnecessary luck.
Hope that at least they might take consider a ban on tera in this format.
Personally feel likes tera type reveal probably will be okay.
I don't think Tera is going anywhere or being changed for a few reasons:
1)This example is just a classic case of bad matchup.
2) The format is young, it is still growing. The strong Pokemon will get nerfed and defensive pokemon will rise. This HO problem will sort itself out like it did in Gen 8. The effect tera has on offense won't be so dominant.
3) DLC Pokemon and Home moves (if they even come) are yet to be available.
4) Have you seen early gen 8? That was way worse.
In summary, just be patient.