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Tournament SCL IV DOU Discussion Thread
- Thread starter eragon
- Start date
- Status
my interest started to wane later in the season and I stopped doing predicts but I'd like to revive the thread a bit for playoffs
The top 6 stand out pretty clearly and honestly if you told me that was your ordered top 6 Pokemon in the tier I'd say that's very reasonable. Wetpon being #1 by a landslide isn't surprising considering just how splashable it is for any structure. It does have a negative winrate but it's close enough to 50% that this is kinda just what you'd expect from her. Onto some winners and losers:
Winners:
- The talk of the town recently. Third overall in usage with just below 40% and a staggering 63% winrate, up to 70% without mirrors. In a post Flutter metagame Pao has emerged as the premier offensive threat finding a comfortable home on anything from balance to HO. Ice/Dark/Fighting/Protect with a Sash is all it needs to be able to contribute in any matchup with its greatest assets being an insane speed stat and broken ability. Undoubtedly the biggest winner of this tour with some people even saying it's the best mon in the tier right now.
- Pult has emerged as a great partner for Pao winning 7/8 games it was brought to as a formerly overlooked Tier 5 level mon. Ignoring Fake Out and Intimidate are great attributes for a Pao partner as we've seen with Dragonite and Entei in the past. Pult trades off ESpeed for a speed stat even higher than Pao, a solid spread move, and access to U-turn. I don't expect it's winrate to be this high in future tours but I do think Pult is here to stay as a decent option.
- Top players decided to finally try optimizing Rain teams this tour and it has certainly paid off. Arch itself has a good but not amazing winrate, however Pelipper is sitting comfortably over 70%. Despite terrible statistics Peli's support moves and strong STABs allow it to contribute game to game, and Arch is as menacing as ever when it's being supported well. I wouldn't be too surprised if it got retested in the future.
- With it's base and masterpiece variants combined it sits at 14 uses and a 64% winrate (70% without mirrors), placing it just outside the top 10. Sinis is a very powerful option on rain teams to provide Arch with healing, redirection, and TR while still being able to deal decent damage. These same things also apply to pretty much any bulky setup oriented team, it really glues those builds together. It's winrate and usage will go back down to normal if Rain ever falls off but for now it's found another structure to thrive on.
- P2 and Amoon had a great tour after many had written them off as mediocre to below average Tier 4 level mons. Amoon put up a solid 62% winrate in 8 appearances (75% without mirror) while P2 went 6 for 7. They aren't glued together like Peli with Arch or Pult with Pao but they did go 3-0 together. Both are balance pieces that I view as solidly Tier 3 and think they'll continue to have a place in the meta.
- Our final winner will be Okidogi who came out swinging early in the season before slowing down a bit, but it still accumulated 7 uses with an over 70% winrate. The dog is a strong anti Intimidate, anti priority (mainly Fake Out) option that happens to pair well with and check Pao. Being able to absorb Glimm's TSpikes is also quite valuable for the heavy Physical teams it tends to find itself on. Definitely carved out a niche for itself.
Losers:
- Starting off with a funny one, the genies are still top meta threats but had a rougher tour than usual. Both sit around a 43% winrate and drop under 40% without mirrors. With Torn teams being the most common in the meta it's only natural that players are coming prepared with mons that punish Torn for being on the field and bringing teams that don't care much about Tailwind. As for Landorus, it's usual LO sets simply doesn't match up well into the 3 most used mons and the slower structures it's meant to steamroll are being built to fare better against it. Neither of these guys are going anywhere though, they'll remain near the top no matter what. They're simply less dominant than they were a little while back and players are finding more ways to deal with them.
- Gambit only made 7 appearances in the regular season and lost 5 of them with a pretty even split between SD and AV. It's not a bad Pokemon by any means but it is a Tera hog and in my opinion it doesn't have a great matchup spread these days. Players are finding different ways to punish Intimidate and other sweepers with fewer weaknesses and/or better coverage are proving to be more efficient. This guy will always have a solid place though, just has too many strong attributes and is always scary in the builder.
- Just like last year, Psyspam hasn't performed admirably. Indd went 3 for 9 with partner in crime Iron Crown going 2 for 6. Mew and Necrozma also made one appearance each as partners but neither won. Those 2 wins came within the first 2 weeks, and Psyspam didn't win again until Week 8 when Hugo's FullRoom was brought. Psyspam is just an inherently inconsistent play style that has high upside but most teams have the tools to handle it. The best players tend to stay away from these builds so the low winrate is relatively unsurprising.
- My understanding is that Regidrago had a lot of hype surrounding it in the months prior to SCL but it barely even showed up here, going 1 for 3 in games. The teams it often found itself on weren't really present in this tour as the players shifted to more reliable offenses often centered around Pao. Not to mention how easy it is to slap on Teras that beat Drago like Steel or Fairy. I am never a fan of this mon and don't see it ever being higher than Tier 4 in viability, but it can only really go up from here.
- As for a mon I am the #1 fan of as opposed to the #1 hater, Bax has seen much better days with only 2 appearances and 0 wins. It had a great showing last SCL and put up solid numbers earlier this year in tours like DPL and OSDT. Unfortunately it just finds itself outclassed often and the prevalence of Tera Fairy does not help. Snow builds prefer to have Kyurem's consistent damage output and run a different setup sweeper to benefit from Veil. Outside of Snow it competes with Pao which is just a really difficult competition to win right now. A comeback is possible for sure, similar to Gambit it has some really strong attributes and good stats that can never be truly terrible.
[TMS] Nails (40) vs (60) qsns [ISL] - #2 and #3 ranked players coming into the tour get a rematch from Week 2 to make up for not facing off last year. They went 4-4 and 5-4 respectively which isn't their ceiling but still not bad at all. I would say that qsns has a better mind for SV, just being the more active player and bringing more solid teams for the most part. Nails has definitely been more offmeta, likely due to both his own preferences and the support from eragon. In my opinion this has worked against him more than helped him for this season but there's still time for it to work to his advantage in the playoffs. Not sure if it will here though since despite their shaky motivation this is the sort of game I see qsns turning up for. Combine that with the gameplay I've seen from qsns looking a bit better overall and I have to favor them here.
[TER] sempra (45) vs (55) Grandmas Cookin [DYN] - Canada clash here, two players who revitalized their SV DOU play during OSDT. sempra has performed about as I expected him to this tour, pretty inconsistent with flashes of amazing gameplay like weeks 5 & 7. Other times his team picks completely miss the mark for me like week 4's outdated Kommo-o build or week 6's overcooked Rain being primary examples. Gma saved the Dynamos DOU slot following a bad start from KOM and went on a nice 4-1 run. I think there are exploitable flaws in his teams but I do generally like what they've brought so far and the gameplay has been sound. I definitely give the prep edge to Gma and think that'll be the biggest hurdle for sempra to overcome here. If sempra loads up a strong team and plays to his peak I would favor him here but I see that as pretty unlikely so I have to go with Gma.
Going into this tour there were whispers that this could be one of the strongest DOU pools ever, if not the strongest. While I think that most would agree it didn't exactly live up to that it did end up being a pretty even field. Seven players ended the regular season with either 4 or 5 wins, with the only outliers being the two bottom ranked cores and Spurrific who popped off with a very impressive 8-1. This marks the most even record spread we've seen, perhaps due to the amount of substitutes that played this year. 19 different people played a DOU game throughout the tournament which is the highest in SCL history!! Only Spurrific and qsns played a full regular season this time around. Unfortunately for Spurrific a full regular season is all he'll get as the Breakers were eliminated in Week 9 which means for the first time since SCL I we won't be seeing a 9-1 DOU record.
As for the other eliminated cores:
- Gible also fell in the final week so the 1% chance of an emforbes DOU game is now 0%. bagel established himself as much more than a circuit threat with a 5-3 finish only losing to the other players with 5+ wins (myself, qsns, and ofc Spurrific) and will surely be a SCL staple. He's also responsible for possibly the two funniest moments this season by:
1. Missing his Week 2 game and then playing for NatDexPL ten minutes after Seraphz subbed in and lost
2. Beating JRL while driving to a regional after which JRL wouldn't play another game
- Shoguns fell apart after the first few weeks due to some unfortunate circumstances and their DOU core didn't really help. Akaru struggled with a 1-4 before Frixel took over and managed a bit better going 2-2. Combined 3-6 isn't awful considering the low prices and expectations of the core, both will continue on as DOU threats regardless.
- Foxes mark the first of three teams that were never really in the race, but at least this one got their DOU core right. ESM and Ann for 3k each is insane and while ESM didn't replicate his DOU team tour showings he still put up a respectable 4-3. He stuck true to his own style which worked wonders early with a 3-0 start including beating Nails W1, but players began figuring out what he struggled against as that 3-0 turned into a 3-3. He finished positive by handing Spurrific his sole loss though thanks to... Moody Smeargle. Ann also put up a respectable season off the bench losing to qsns early then beating me in the final week. Hopefully both will play a full season next year if they sign up again!
- Spartans' Spanish duo of JRL and Tenzai unfortunately couldn't prove the rankings wrong going a combined 1-5. JRL's first game was somewhat promising with a dominant win over sempra, but they failed to make a splash afterwards. It would actually be recent OU prospect and occasional DOU player Exotic64 who picked up the core's second win against qsns in Week 8 to help secure a 6-4 for their team, but he lost his other two games. A combined 2-7 is the worst of the tour however all three of these players (and their teammate Eric!) are participating in DOUWC, so maybe they can get redemption there.
- Platoon! My team had a very rough season and came in dead last by a decent margin. Lunar and I were definitely not as on top of the meta as we were last year but I still put up a 5-2 prior to the team's elimination. Afterwards crying got Earthquaked by sempra, I subbed back in hoping to play ESM, he got subbed out once the week went up, and then I lost to Ann to finish a combined 5-4. Underperformance for the first ranked core but life goes on.
As for the other eliminated cores:
- Gible also fell in the final week so the 1% chance of an emforbes DOU game is now 0%. bagel established himself as much more than a circuit threat with a 5-3 finish only losing to the other players with 5+ wins (myself, qsns, and ofc Spurrific) and will surely be a SCL staple. He's also responsible for possibly the two funniest moments this season by:
1. Missing his Week 2 game and then playing for NatDexPL ten minutes after Seraphz subbed in and lost
2. Beating JRL while driving to a regional after which JRL wouldn't play another game
- Shoguns fell apart after the first few weeks due to some unfortunate circumstances and their DOU core didn't really help. Akaru struggled with a 1-4 before Frixel took over and managed a bit better going 2-2. Combined 3-6 isn't awful considering the low prices and expectations of the core, both will continue on as DOU threats regardless.
- Foxes mark the first of three teams that were never really in the race, but at least this one got their DOU core right. ESM and Ann for 3k each is insane and while ESM didn't replicate his DOU team tour showings he still put up a respectable 4-3. He stuck true to his own style which worked wonders early with a 3-0 start including beating Nails W1, but players began figuring out what he struggled against as that 3-0 turned into a 3-3. He finished positive by handing Spurrific his sole loss though thanks to... Moody Smeargle. Ann also put up a respectable season off the bench losing to qsns early then beating me in the final week. Hopefully both will play a full season next year if they sign up again!
- Spartans' Spanish duo of JRL and Tenzai unfortunately couldn't prove the rankings wrong going a combined 1-5. JRL's first game was somewhat promising with a dominant win over sempra, but they failed to make a splash afterwards. It would actually be recent OU prospect and occasional DOU player Exotic64 who picked up the core's second win against qsns in Week 8 to help secure a 6-4 for their team, but he lost his other two games. A combined 2-7 is the worst of the tour however all three of these players (and their teammate Eric!) are participating in DOUWC, so maybe they can get redemption there.
- Platoon! My team had a very rough season and came in dead last by a decent margin. Lunar and I were definitely not as on top of the meta as we were last year but I still put up a 5-2 prior to the team's elimination. Afterwards crying got Earthquaked by sempra, I subbed back in hoping to play ESM, he got subbed out once the week went up, and then I lost to Ann to finish a combined 5-4. Underperformance for the first ranked core but life goes on.
Code:
+ ---- + --------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon | Use | Usage % | Win % |
+ ---- + --------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1 | Ogerpon-Wellspring | 48 | 53.33% | 47.92% |
| 2 | Tornadus | 37 | 41.11% | 43.24% |
| 3 | Chien-Pao | 35 | 38.89% | 62.86% |
| 4 | Iron Hands | 31 | 34.44% | 54.84% |
| 5 | Landorus | 28 | 31.11% | 42.86% |
| 6 | Incineroar | 27 | 30.00% | 51.85% |
| 7 | Rillaboom | 18 | 20.00% | 55.56% |
| 8 | Gholdengo | 17 | 18.89% | 35.29% |
| 9 | Archaludon | 16 | 17.78% | 56.25% |
| 10 | Ogerpon-Hearthflame | 15 | 16.67% | 53.33% |
| 11 | Raging Bolt | 13 | 14.44% | 61.54% |
| 12 | Diancie | 12 | 13.33% | 50.00% |
| 13 | Pelipper | 11 | 12.22% | 72.73% |
| 14 | Ursaluna-Bloodmoon | 11 | 12.22% | 54.55% |
| 15 | Gouging Fire | 10 | 11.11% | 40.00% |
| 16 | Landorus-Therian | 9 | 10.00% | 44.44% |
| 17 | Sinistcha | 9 | 10.00% | 55.56% |
| 18 | Chi-Yu | 9 | 10.00% | 44.44% |
| 19 | Ting-Lu | 9 | 10.00% | 44.44% |
| 20 | Indeedee-F | 9 | 10.00% | 33.33% |
| 21 | Ninetales-Alola | 9 | 10.00% | 55.56% |
| 22 | Dragapult | 8 | 8.89% | 87.50% |
| 23 | Glimmora | 8 | 8.89% | 62.50% |
| 24 | Amoonguss | 8 | 8.89% | 62.50% |
| 25 | Porygon2 | 7 | 7.78% | 85.71% |
| 26 | Okidogi | 7 | 7.78% | 71.43% |
| 27 | Kingambit | 7 | 7.78% | 28.57% |
| 28 | Farigiraf | 7 | 7.78% | 42.86% |
| 29 | Mew | 7 | 7.78% | 42.86% |
| 30 | Kyurem | 6 | 6.67% | 50.00% |
| 31 | Iron Crown | 6 | 6.67% | 33.33% |
| 32 | Sinistcha-Masterpiece | 5 | 5.56% | 80.00% |
| 33 | Dragonite | 5 | 5.56% | 60.00% |
| 34 | Moltres-Galar | 4 | 4.44% | 50.00% |
| 35 | Torkoal | 4 | 4.44% | 50.00% |
| 36 | Ogerpon-Cornerstone | 4 | 4.44% | 25.00% |
| 37 | Volcanion | 3 | 3.33% | 33.33% |
| 38 | Regidrago | 3 | 3.33% | 33.33% |
| 39 | Kommo-o | 3 | 3.33% | 0.00% |
| 40 | Walking Wake | 3 | 3.33% | 33.33% |
| 41 | Roaring Moon | 3 | 3.33% | 33.33% |
| 42 | Manaphy | 2 | 2.22% | 50.00% |
| 43 | Araquanid | 2 | 2.22% | 50.00% |
| 44 | Clefairy | 2 | 2.22% | 50.00% |
| 45 | Smeargle | 2 | 2.22% | 100.00% |
| 46 | Suicune | 2 | 2.22% | 0.00% |
| 47 | Tyranitar | 2 | 2.22% | 50.00% |
| 48 | Iron Bundle | 2 | 2.22% | 50.00% |
| 49 | Latios | 2 | 2.22% | 0.00% |
| 50 | Whimsicott | 2 | 2.22% | 0.00% |
| 51 | Baxcalibur | 2 | 2.22% | 0.00% |
| 52 | Spectrier | 2 | 2.22% | 100.00% |
| 53 | Entei | 2 | 2.22% | 0.00% |
| 54 | Espathra | 1 | 1.11% | 0.00% |
| 55 | Sylveon | 1 | 1.11% | 0.00% |
| 56 | Cresselia | 1 | 1.11% | 0.00% |
| 57 | Corviknight | 1 | 1.11% | 100.00% |
| 58 | Hatterene | 1 | 1.11% | 100.00% |
| 59 | Hoopa-Unbound | 1 | 1.11% | 100.00% |
| 60 | Regieleki | 1 | 1.11% | 100.00% |
| 61 | Primarina | 1 | 1.11% | 0.00% |
| 62 | Heatran | 1 | 1.11% | 100.00% |
| 63 | Grimmsnarl | 1 | 1.11% | 0.00% |
| 64 | Maushold | 1 | 1.11% | 0.00% |
| 65 | Politoed | 1 | 1.11% | 0.00% |
| 66 | Barraskewda | 1 | 1.11% | 0.00% |
| 67 | Maushold-Four | 1 | 1.11% | 0.00% |
| 68 | Scream Tail | 1 | 1.11% | 0.00% |
| 69 | Basculegion-F | 1 | 1.11% | 100.00% |
| 70 | Palafin | 1 | 1.11% | 0.00% |
| 71 | Articuno | 1 | 1.11% | 100.00% |
| 72 | Necrozma | 1 | 1.11% | 0.00% |
| 73 | Enamorus-Therian | 1 | 1.11% | 100.00% |
| 74 | Iron Treads | 1 | 1.11% | 0.00% |
| 75 | Thundurus | 1 | 1.11% | 0.00% |
| 76 | Clefable | 1 | 1.11% | 100.00% |
| 77 | Lilligant-Hisui | 1 | 1.11% | 0.00% |
| 78 | Magmar | 1 | 1.11% | 100.00% |The top 6 stand out pretty clearly and honestly if you told me that was your ordered top 6 Pokemon in the tier I'd say that's very reasonable. Wetpon being #1 by a landslide isn't surprising considering just how splashable it is for any structure. It does have a negative winrate but it's close enough to 50% that this is kinda just what you'd expect from her. Onto some winners and losers:
Winners:
- The talk of the town recently. Third overall in usage with just below 40% and a staggering 63% winrate, up to 70% without mirrors. In a post Flutter metagame Pao has emerged as the premier offensive threat finding a comfortable home on anything from balance to HO. Ice/Dark/Fighting/Protect with a Sash is all it needs to be able to contribute in any matchup with its greatest assets being an insane speed stat and broken ability. Undoubtedly the biggest winner of this tour with some people even saying it's the best mon in the tier right now. - Pult has emerged as a great partner for Pao winning 7/8 games it was brought to as a formerly overlooked Tier 5 level mon. Ignoring Fake Out and Intimidate are great attributes for a Pao partner as we've seen with Dragonite and Entei in the past. Pult trades off ESpeed for a speed stat even higher than Pao, a solid spread move, and access to U-turn. I don't expect it's winrate to be this high in future tours but I do think Pult is here to stay as a decent option. - Top players decided to finally try optimizing Rain teams this tour and it has certainly paid off. Arch itself has a good but not amazing winrate, however Pelipper is sitting comfortably over 70%. Despite terrible statistics Peli's support moves and strong STABs allow it to contribute game to game, and Arch is as menacing as ever when it's being supported well. I wouldn't be too surprised if it got retested in the future. - With it's base and masterpiece variants combined it sits at 14 uses and a 64% winrate (70% without mirrors), placing it just outside the top 10. Sinis is a very powerful option on rain teams to provide Arch with healing, redirection, and TR while still being able to deal decent damage. These same things also apply to pretty much any bulky setup oriented team, it really glues those builds together. It's winrate and usage will go back down to normal if Rain ever falls off but for now it's found another structure to thrive on. - P2 and Amoon had a great tour after many had written them off as mediocre to below average Tier 4 level mons. Amoon put up a solid 62% winrate in 8 appearances (75% without mirror) while P2 went 6 for 7. They aren't glued together like Peli with Arch or Pult with Pao but they did go 3-0 together. Both are balance pieces that I view as solidly Tier 3 and think they'll continue to have a place in the meta. - Our final winner will be Okidogi who came out swinging early in the season before slowing down a bit, but it still accumulated 7 uses with an over 70% winrate. The dog is a strong anti Intimidate, anti priority (mainly Fake Out) option that happens to pair well with and check Pao. Being able to absorb Glimm's TSpikes is also quite valuable for the heavy Physical teams it tends to find itself on. Definitely carved out a niche for itself.Losers:
- Starting off with a funny one, the genies are still top meta threats but had a rougher tour than usual. Both sit around a 43% winrate and drop under 40% without mirrors. With Torn teams being the most common in the meta it's only natural that players are coming prepared with mons that punish Torn for being on the field and bringing teams that don't care much about Tailwind. As for Landorus, it's usual LO sets simply doesn't match up well into the 3 most used mons and the slower structures it's meant to steamroll are being built to fare better against it. Neither of these guys are going anywhere though, they'll remain near the top no matter what. They're simply less dominant than they were a little while back and players are finding more ways to deal with them. - Gambit only made 7 appearances in the regular season and lost 5 of them with a pretty even split between SD and AV. It's not a bad Pokemon by any means but it is a Tera hog and in my opinion it doesn't have a great matchup spread these days. Players are finding different ways to punish Intimidate and other sweepers with fewer weaknesses and/or better coverage are proving to be more efficient. This guy will always have a solid place though, just has too many strong attributes and is always scary in the builder. - Just like last year, Psyspam hasn't performed admirably. Indd went 3 for 9 with partner in crime Iron Crown going 2 for 6. Mew and Necrozma also made one appearance each as partners but neither won. Those 2 wins came within the first 2 weeks, and Psyspam didn't win again until Week 8 when Hugo's FullRoom was brought. Psyspam is just an inherently inconsistent play style that has high upside but most teams have the tools to handle it. The best players tend to stay away from these builds so the low winrate is relatively unsurprising. - My understanding is that Regidrago had a lot of hype surrounding it in the months prior to SCL but it barely even showed up here, going 1 for 3 in games. The teams it often found itself on weren't really present in this tour as the players shifted to more reliable offenses often centered around Pao. Not to mention how easy it is to slap on Teras that beat Drago like Steel or Fairy. I am never a fan of this mon and don't see it ever being higher than Tier 4 in viability, but it can only really go up from here. - As for a mon I am the #1 fan of as opposed to the #1 hater, Bax has seen much better days with only 2 appearances and 0 wins. It had a great showing last SCL and put up solid numbers earlier this year in tours like DPL and OSDT. Unfortunately it just finds itself outclassed often and the prevalence of Tera Fairy does not help. Snow builds prefer to have Kyurem's consistent damage output and run a different setup sweeper to benefit from Veil. Outside of Snow it competes with Pao which is just a really difficult competition to win right now. A comeback is possible for sure, similar to Gambit it has some really strong attributes and good stats that can never be truly terrible.[TMS] Nails (40) vs (60) qsns [ISL] - #2 and #3 ranked players coming into the tour get a rematch from Week 2 to make up for not facing off last year. They went 4-4 and 5-4 respectively which isn't their ceiling but still not bad at all. I would say that qsns has a better mind for SV, just being the more active player and bringing more solid teams for the most part. Nails has definitely been more offmeta, likely due to both his own preferences and the support from eragon. In my opinion this has worked against him more than helped him for this season but there's still time for it to work to his advantage in the playoffs. Not sure if it will here though since despite their shaky motivation this is the sort of game I see qsns turning up for. Combine that with the gameplay I've seen from qsns looking a bit better overall and I have to favor them here.
[TER] sempra (45) vs (55) Grandmas Cookin [DYN] - Canada clash here, two players who revitalized their SV DOU play during OSDT. sempra has performed about as I expected him to this tour, pretty inconsistent with flashes of amazing gameplay like weeks 5 & 7. Other times his team picks completely miss the mark for me like week 4's outdated Kommo-o build or week 6's overcooked Rain being primary examples. Gma saved the Dynamos DOU slot following a bad start from KOM and went on a nice 4-1 run. I think there are exploitable flaws in his teams but I do generally like what they've brought so far and the gameplay has been sound. I definitely give the prep edge to Gma and think that'll be the biggest hurdle for sempra to overcome here. If sempra loads up a strong team and plays to his peak I would favor him here but I see that as pretty unlikely so I have to go with Gma.
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