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The rising star of the recent meta, Scraggy, is getting suspect tested. From funny little guy to absolute threat, Scraggy has made its spot as one of the most threatening Pokemon of the tier, the combination of Bulk Up, Knock Off + Fighting-STAB, Rest, and Shed Skin makes it a Pokemon that not only can quickly become very threatening if you fail to prevent it from setting up, which, it has many opportunities to set up thanks to its good bulk, defensive typing, and ability, but also it can do progress without even boosts simply by Knocking the opposing team and weakening its checks that usually lack longevity such as Pignite, Monferno, Tinkatuff, or even Fletchinder that does not want to lose its Boots. Dragon Dance can also be extremely powerful, with various choices from a bulky Rest DD set to Taunt DD, or DD 3 Atks to have coverage to hit usual checks like Poison Jab for Clefairy or Rock Slide for Fletchinder.
However, teams have adapted to the new presence of Scraggy in the tier, such as the rise of Clefairy, Quaxwell running Encore, Tinkatuff running Play Rough, or even Koffing Clear Smog. Scraggy does have checks and punishes teams that did not take it into account. Scraggy also helps dealing with big threats of the meta such as Toxic Spikes, Drakloak, and Sliggoo-Hisui.
So what do you think? Should Scraggy be banned or should it stay? Let your voice be heard using this thread! The thread will be closed in approximatively a week, then voting will be up.
Qualifying for the suspect:
NFEPL IX - 1 win | 3 games played min
UMCL I - 1 win | 3 games played min
Council position
NFELT finalists
Seasonal Top 12
I'm still fairly new to the meta and format as a whole, but from my brief experience and also playing Finchely with Dragon Dance Scraggy in the last 16 of the NFE SV Seasonal, I thought I would share my thoughts.
Sweepers in general are dangerous and difficult to revenge kill once successfully set up, and Scraggy is certainly no different, especially with its ability and decent STAB moves (especially Knock Off).
On the Dragon Dance set, because of its poor base speed, it can still be outsped by Thunder Wave :drakloak: at +1, it can't easily break :tinkatuff: who has the option of Thunder Wave/Encore/Draining Kiss and needs to still be careful of :fletchling: with its Gale Wings ability which gives it priority on its STAB moves. It can also be revenge killed by :monferno: (Mach Punch) depending on the chip damage, and as mentioned in the OP there is also :quaxwell: (encore) :koffing: (wisp/smog) :ivysaur: (leech seed?) to name a few examples. Potentially even :clefairy:?
In general, I feel with the DD set you would want to utilise Moxie > Shed Skin to fully utilise its power.
On the Bulk Up set, although the ability makes it great, it comes down to an RNG factor on turns for Shed Skin to activate. Not only that, as it remains slow, there are ways to pressure it with threats such as :monferno::pignite: and potential trick/taunt users.
If I was eligible to vote, I would probably vote Do Not Ban as Scraggy will likely fall victim to 4AS meaning it can be fairly predictable to play against, and see how the meta develops from there.
P.S. I appreciate Scraggy is banned in SV LC which is a completely different format to NFE, but I can also see some similarities.
I'm still fairly new to the meta and format as a whole, but from my brief experience and also playing Finchely with Dragon Dance Scraggy in the last 16 of the NFE SV Seasonal, I thought I would share my thoughts.
Sweepers in general are dangerous and difficult to revenge kill once successfully set up, and Scraggy is certainly no different, especially with its ability and decent STAB moves (especially Knock Off).
On the Dragon Dance set, because of its poor base speed, it can still be outsped by Thunder Wave :drakloak: at +1, it can't easily break :tinkatuff: who has the option of Thunder Wave/Encore/Draining Kiss and needs to still be careful of :fletchling: with its Gale Wings ability which gives it priority on its STAB moves. It can also be revenge killed by :monferno: (Mach Punch) depending on the chip damage, and as mentioned in the OP there is also :quaxwell: (encore) :koffing: (wisp/smog) :ivysaur: (leech seed?) to name a few examples. Potentially even :clefairy:?
In general, I feel with the DD set you would want to utilise Moxie > Shed Skin to fully utilise its power.
On the Bulk Up set, although the ability makes it great, it comes down to an RNG factor on turns for Shed Skin to activate. Not only that, as it remains slow, there are ways to pressure it with threats such as :monferno::pignite: and potential trick/taunt users.
If I was eligible to vote, I would probably vote Do Not Ban as Scraggy will likely fall victim to 4AS meaning it can be fairly predictable to play against, and see how the meta develops from there.
P.S. I appreciate Scraggy is banned in SV LC which is a completely different format to NFE, but I can also see some similarities.
I think scraggy is more powerful in lc bc of level 5 (higher general damage), lower power format, access to tera so it is a little more obviously broken there
I’m quite confused by the answers you mention within NFE itself though—scraggy has shed skin for twave (even if it doesn’t proc you got a kill and can pivot it back in to activate shed), tink and pignite need to be at near full to wall scraggy, monferno doesn’t kill with mach. The random encores only really stop DD from actively setting up on you, and sort of lock bu into setup without even forcing it out in quax’s case. Fletchinder also has never run gale wings in a single NFE set I’ve seen.
I'm writing this on a train so it isn't my best work (my responses to people responding to my post will prob be better lol) but I am going to be voting DNB on scraggy.
Scraggy is most definitely a very powerful and defining Pokemon, so I understand why people want to ban it. However, I think that while it's powerful, it ultimately is a fine mon. Lots of already good mons that you want to fit onto teams are good scraggy checks, and while it can outlast a lot of them, teams are usually able to deal with it long enough to force it out and deal with its teammates. Stuff like the multitude of poisons (clear smog koffing and leech knock ivysaur come into particular when thinking about it), encore quax, clefairy, play rough tinkatuff, fletchinder, the fire fightings etc. While it can tech options like rock slide for fletch, these are still a commitment and means it has to drop options like rest, which makes it a lot more susceptible to chip damage (dd I think much prefers the higher power of cc or hjk, allowing it to do much more damage into a variety of threats like tink, monferno etc, so while it can go drain that nerfs the immediate threat potential of scraggy).
Now, you can list a bunch of checks to a mon, and state it's fine. It's rather that can you naturally fit these on teams and don't have to go that far out of your way to do so, and I think, yeah, you already fit the counterplay for scraggy on teams. Poisons are great for tspikes, encore quax can shut down other sweepers like Wartortle easier, clefairy is a good mon, play rough tink can chip pilo, hliggoo and waters better, fletch I think is a bit mid but it is your best way to use seadra and is removal, and the fire fightings are great mons.
Ultimately, I remember Celeste saying that scraggy was a builder check, and I think that's kinda the perfect analogy for scraggy. If you don't have the answers, yeah it will rip your team a hole open. But said counterplay you should have on teams, and once you do, scraggy is still a threat, but one that is very much dealable.
Gonna clarify some stuff with calcs
It was mentioned that :drakloak: outspeeds scraggy well no one in right mind will go Drakloak on scraggy and click thunder wave just for it to heal back next turn I agree it's a luck factor but would you really wanna bet your run on that? Also
252 SpA Choice Specs Drakloak Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Scraggy: 174-205 (72.1 - 85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Even no bulk scraggy survives the draco from kloak just in case someone says that drakloak can revenge with specs draco later.
Coming back to monferno the only set which I could see ever defend against a scraggy is sword dance with slack off because scraggy can run both bu of dd sets
Mach punch calcs
252 Atk Monferno Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Scraggy: 84-102 (34.8 - 42.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (0hp evs)
The full HP scraggy calcs
252 Atk Monferno Close Combat vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Scraggy: 168-198 (55.2 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 0 Atk Scraggy Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Monferno: 108-127 (40.1 - 47.2%) -- 42.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock Clefairy calcs
+1 0 Atk Scraggy Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefairy: 150-178 (43.6 - 51.7%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO (I know it's a rare set but it does exist and keeping eviolite on Clefairy in a team where clef is the scraggy counter is just not possible)
+1 252 Atk Scraggy Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefairy: 202-238 (58.7 - 69.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Clef damage w moonblast
0 SpA Clefairy Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 4+ SpD Eviolite Scraggy: 220-264 (72.3 - 86.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
For encore I agree with what kingler has said
Koffing clear smog/wisp is just not smth you can use to force scraggy we forget it runs rest and koffing does ass dmg with sludge bomb
I would definitely vote BAN
I think Scraggy needs to go for the better.
First off, this is what Scraggy can be played as: Dragon Dance Offensive (HJK/CC, Knock, DD, Taunt or Rock Slide or Poison Jab) Dragon Dance bulky (DPunch/CC/HJK, Knock, DD, Rest) Bulk Up (DPunch, Knock, BU, Rest)
Those 3 sets require different ways of handling them, so you need to predict the right set, or else you will be (heavily) punished by simply guessing the wrong set.
Offensive DD is more used in HO but works well in bulkier archetypes too, which means that even after a Dragon Dance, you can still guess the set wrong.
I'm gonna start with offensive Dragon Dance, that i think is just broken honestly, it's too easy to setup and it does way too much progress, every HO wants it not because it adds some sort of utility to the team but because it's just broken, setting up on half the tier due to its bulk and Shed Skin is insane, then you outspeed everything except Scarfers at +1 (Scarfers are rare and specific counters to HO) and HJK + Knock covers too much and does too much damage to everything except Clefairy (which, behind Screens, Clefairy barely trades with PJab Scraggy).
Bulk Up and bulky Dragon Dance i think have a similar impact on the meta, which is that it forces teams to run underoptimized movesets, or even Pokemons. Scraggy is such a specific Pokemon you have to deal with that it forces you to play some random moves that only have purposes against Scraggy, here are some examples; :tinkatuff:Play Rough / Draining Kiss (Tinkatuff does no damage to anything else and would much rather run Flash Cannon as an offensive move to prevent Piloswine from coming, or run Encore that brings much more value to any team), :koffing:Clear Smog (It does prevent other threats to setups like Fraxure or Hakamo-o, but so does WoW while also dealing with other stuff like Ground-types and helps your partners deal with said threats as well, much more useful than Clear Smog that does no damage and will result in you losing most of your health anyway to deal with them), :seadra:Clear Smog and :quaxwell:Encore (dropping either Flip Turn or Surf/Ice-move is a huge deal compared to running Clear Smog or Encore to deal with Scraggy specifically), even :clefairy:Moonblast is worse than just running Night Shade for better overall damage except that you need Moonblast for Scraggy.
In a similar vein, :clefairy: has drastically risen in usage despite being a pretty mediocre Pokemon overall, here is what it successfully does : check Scraggy, check Drakloak, Stealth Rock setter, Encore, TWave, Knock absorber (Trick). Aside from the "check Scraggy" part, it really does remind me of one of our top tier (:tinkatuff:). Clefairy does not check stuff like Monferno and Pignite, it does let big threats come in for free like Piloswine, Sliggoo-Hisui, Ivysaur and Thwackey. It's just a worse Tinkatuff overall as Tinkatuff is faster, bulkier, and its Steel-typing lets it check so much more stuff (Sliggoo-Hisui, Girafarig, Poison-types...) and Pickpocket is extremely useful, arguably even more than Magic Guard in this tier.
Below are usage stats of both Scraggy and Clefairy, showing that Clefairy is being used more because of Scraggy's impact on the tier, and that before then, Clefairy wasn't used at all (even when Scraggy began to be really strong, people still didn't figure out Clefairy comps because it's that mediocre). I think the stats of 5 consecutive team tournaments are worth relevant when the meta was quite similar (even when Dusclops was around, i think the meta was quite similar to what we have now, we saw some trends and stuff in the meantime but overall it's the same)
Another point i think makes Scraggy worth banning is how easy it is for Scraggy to make progress by itself, which will then help it win later in the game while having an insane longevity. This is the only Pokemon of the entire tier than combines "progress maker + wincon + longevity" in one slot, most Pokemons can do one at a time, some can do two (Monferno/Pignite, bulky setups like Duosion and Dunsparce, offensive setups like Wartortle and Fraxure...) but all three at once is insane. It also just comes on literally half the tier (at least), most teams have like 3/4 Pokemons that let Scraggy come in for pretty much free, so Scraggy has a lot of opportunities to come and make progress, arguably more than any other offensive Pokemon of the tier.
So basically what's the issue with Scraggy?
- Too punishing, one single mistake (predicting the set wrong) and you get heavily punished for it, which is unfair to me, you shouldn't lose one and a half Pokemon (at least) for a bad set prediction.
- Forces mediocre Pokemons/movesets, the meta has adapted to Scraggy in a unhealthy way, people seriously considering moves that will only ever see value against Scraggy is a problem. Clefairy jumping from almost never used to 12th most used Pokemon when it's clearly mediocre at what it does compared to other, much better options like Tinkatuff, is an issue.
- Broken long-term, Scraggy has too many opportunities to come in, makes progress too easily by worning down its checks by itself, and the possibility to heal 100% of its health and be awake instantly thanks to Rest + Shed Skin makes dealing with it a nightmare for some teams. Offensive Dragon Dance is also too strong in HO teams.
Those replays show exactly why i think Scraggy deserve to be banned ; it's too easy to make progress with it and too punishing for the user facing it after a single mistake/outplay
I thought I was on the fence about Scraggy but I'm slowly realizing I strongly agree with the pro-ban arguments.
If this mon wasn't a setup sweeper, I think it would still see usage – there are not a lot of dark types available or fightings that are not part fire, and a status absorber is also nice. Its ability to set up and snowball a game is something that naturally leans towards a 'broken' status in general, and if tera was legal I think this mon would be inarguably broken. You can't easily take it out in one hit, which is usually enough time for it to set up.
I think the biggest point leaning towards its brokenness is the suboptimal movesets you have to run to beat Scraggy. If you want to offensively beat Scraggy, you have fightings and gleam on Giraffe, which are good moves for the meta (and therefore are wallable by the meta) and not the problem here, other than the fact that this is basically a 2-mon list. If there's some strong neutral move I'm forgetting about, remind me. Don't say Draco Meteor because that doesn't OHKO. To defensively beat Scraggy, you either have to run Clefairy, run play rough over the more useful encore on tink, or find an anti-setup move on something else. PD already explained this part better than I would. These options skirt the line between fringe and unviable.
I guess you can argue that Scraggy's checks are meta-relevant, but they're just checks. Nothing really does counter Scraggy since there's a moveset or game position where Scraggy can break through any of its checks. We've seen Rock Slide for Fletch before, and what's stopping Scraggy from also running Poison Jab for Clefairy? Why can't it taunt an Encore? And it's not hard to give Scraggy teammates to soften up its checks prior to a sweep – Sliggoo-H and any physical wall can switch into any of Scraggy's offensive checks, and we all know how good hazards are.
Everyone has voted, Scraggy is officially banned from SV NFE in a really close vote. Thanks everyone for voting and sharing their thoughts regarding this!
