Semi stall team without Toxic?

[Red Wolf]

Hello all, I am Red Wolf and this is a team I have been playing around lately that uses some of my favorite offensive threats and a deffensive core that utilizes a lot of entry hazards. I've played tested it and I have been thinking about some changes. I decided now would be the best team to get some feedback as you can see where it stands and see where I'm thinking of taking it. I hope the image links work -

Team building process:

First off is one of my favorites. Who doesn't like Breloom? He's just so unassuming for a top treat in OU. He checks Dory and owns rain. This was where it started.

Next up I wanted a special sweeper with lots of coverage. Another of my favorites came to mind instantly. Starmie has amazing coverage, outspeeds any ou treats, absorbs status, can spin, can rexover, can use trick, etc. Starmie is just plain great all round and I had to have it on my team.

Now I needed some clean up, a scout, and a pursuit trapper. I also needed it all in one package and it needed to hit like a BRICK SH*T HOUSE. Enter Scizor. One of the top treats in every gen returns to grace gen V with its presence. Late game this mon cleans up all my messes.

Now that I had my offensive core set up I needed some defense! My first glaring problem was my fire and ice weakness. I figured a nice bulky Wish Vaporeon would fit in nicely. I also tried out Heatren for this position but I was a fan.

Needing a lead and some extra bulk as well as hazards I brought up Skarm. It lays Hazards all over the place and helps me bag some OHKOs that I need.

I NEEDED an electric immunity bad now. It also needed to not worry about fire because Inferape was becoming a huge problem. I decided to try out Nidoking because it also wrecked toxic spikes (I hate those) and a mixed set proved lots of coverage. I think he will need to go though as he is not bulky enough...

A closer look

Skarmory @ Leftovers
Sturdy
Impish
252 HP, 4 Def, 252 sDef
- Stealth Rock
- Spikes
- Whirlwind
- Brave Bird

Skarm lead sets hazards and phazes.Spikes and SR are the hazards and Whirlwind phazes out set up sweepers and allows me to wreck up the haz damage. Bravebird is STAB. Specially defendive Skarm to give it some bulk on both sides. It doesn't have roost so Vaporeon needs to pass it Wish all the time but I'm thinking about changing that. If I think its endanger of fire attacks I switch to vaporeon and Nidoking for electric.

Possible Changes: Bravebird for Roost or maybe maybe SR for Roost if I bring in Hippowdon and I give up its Roar.

Nidoking @ Life Orb
Encourage
Naïve
24 atk, 232 SpA, 252 Spe
- Earthquake
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt
- Shadowball

The member that is most likely to go. It is mainly used to break walls and it has great coverage. No superpower because I'd rather set up on Blissey with Breloom :). I do like that Encourage boost also. Bolt-beam coverage and EQ STAB. Shadow Ball helps out with Ghost and psychic types.

Possible Changes: here's the possible change -

Hippowdon @ Leftovers
Sand Strength
Careful
252 HP, 4 Def, 252 sDef
- Earthquake
- Slack Off
- Roar
- Crunch

The reason for this change is I think a nice special bulky Hippo would help my team with some key resistances and can also phaze. I might but on SR to share the hazard load as I said earlier.

Vaporeon @ Leftovers
Water Absorb
Bold
252 HP, 252 Def, 4 sDef
- Boiling Water
- Wish
- Protect
- Roar

Standard wish vap. Boiling water for STAB and burn. Wish + Protect for passing and healing. Roar helps phaze set sweepers and wreck up entry damage. I try to keep Vap alive all game because I have a lot of fire weaknesses. If shanderaa traps and Energy Balls it I can to pursuit trap with Scizor :)

Possible Changes: Roar for HP fire and def EVs for sAtk to OHKO Nattorei. I haven't figured out any exact numbers yet as I just decided to look into after reading a post on PO forums that said it was possible. It would be nice to deal with Nattorei. Also I thought I might need a spinblocker so I thought of maybe adding in -

Burungeru @ Leftovers
Water Absorb
Calm
252 HP, 4 Def, 252 sDef
- Boiling Water
- Will-O-Wisp
- Shadow Ball
- Recover

Scizor @ Choice Band
Technician
Adamant
248 HP, 252 Atk, 8 Spe
-Bullet Punch
- U-Turn
- Superpower
- Pursuit

This thing scouts, it has strong priority and it traps. It serves as my late game clean up. U-Turn and Bullet Punch are it's main options and it has STAB for both. Pursuit is the traping move and Superpower is used to down Dory, Blissey, TTar, and Nattorei if Breloom isn't around to revenge them.

Starmie @ Lift Orb
Natural Cure
Timid
4 hp, 252 Atk, 252 Spe
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt
- Recover

Starmie is a awesome offensive force. It has STAB hydro and bolt-beam for coverage. Recover for Life orb recoil. Comes out mid game to wreck havoc. comes in on most walls or for revenge work.

Possible changes: might change to a rapid spin set or a trick set depending how hippo works out.

Breloom @ Life Orb
Technician
Jolly
4 HP, 252 Atk, 252 Spe
- Spore
- Swords Dance
- Mach Punch
- Bullet Seed

Breloom serves as an annoyer/ sweeper. It also destroys weather teams and is my best check for dory. The main plan is to come in after something it checks faints one of mine or on a wall. Set up spore and then SD away. Mach punch for STAB tech boosted priority and Bullet Seed is used if I think I can get it off in time.

So that's the team. I would love any thoughts or feedback you guys could give me on it and especially on the changes I'm thinking about.

- Wolf

 

[Red Wolf]

Treats

Nattorei - Stupid thing. I have a problem with it messing with my walls. And if breloom falls it can be a problem.

Shanderaa - I HATE this thing. It is uses overheat all I can do is make it switch but if it uses energy ball or shadow ball on starmie I can trap with scizor. It gives me problems though.

Jaroda - Besides Scizor I'm stumped T.T

Zapdos - These have been giving me problems. Both the heatwave and lightning rod ones. One set Agi on me once and it was dealy T.T

I'll add more later

 

[Red Wolf]

Sorry about that hope that will fix the problems. I was rushing earlier. If there's any more problems PM me.

 

[Server_Crash]

In Nidoking's slot, I would recommend Landlos as you are gaining an electric immunity + ground immunity + immunity to spikes. Also, your team isn't that weak to toxic spikes, as only vaporeon is weak to them, more on that later. Landlos makes a good Shandera counter with a scarf. If their Shandera is scarfed, then hit it with EQ, if it has a balloon, then hit it with rock slide/fail edge. Then throw in some coverage moves, like U-turn, and I am a personal fan of outrage for a late game breaker.

OK, vaporeon time. If you switch it to Heatran, then you gain more assurance against Shandera, a guaranteed KO on Nattorei, counter to Heatwave Zapdos and can KO it with Fire Blast if it has enough HP left to take a T bolt. Scarf Jalorda is easy if its trapped in Leaf Storm, but lefties variants carrying HP ground beat it. (Scarf Landlos will hurt it (haven't run the calcs) with U-turn if it gets a clean switch)

Good Luck with the team, although it seems pretty solid as is.

 

[Jaroda]

Well I'm flattered you wanted my help. Alright let's take a look here.

First off, if Skarmory is going to be your lead I highly advise running Shed Shell and pairing a Heatran with it instead of Nidoking. Nidoking is underwhelming without a speed pass like Butterfly Dance. Also replace SR on Skarmory for Roost. Here's the thought process.

Skarmory can only get one layer of spikes if the enemy has a Shandera (and nearly 25% of teams do) and then you just lost your defensive mon in one move with limited hazards. However, with Shed Shell you can easily swap Heatran in to absorb the fire attack and benefit from it, keeping your wall safe. Use this:

Heatran@Choice Scarf
Modest/Timid Max SpA and Spd
Flamethrower/Fire Blast
Earth Power
Stealth Rock
HP Ice/Grass

Once you switch into Shandera, remember your opponents team. Do they have any Fliers or Levitators immune to Earth Power (Or a Doryuzuu with balloon most likely)? If they do, take this turn to set up SR. If the enemy is a solid counter take this turn to switch as the opponent doesn't know you still have a scarf at this point. The scarf will be useful in netting surprise KOs as well as countering or checking all the above threats. Nattorei obviously bites it, you outspeed greedy Jaroda even if they have HP Ground, Earth Power kills Scarf and resists all its attacks (bar uncommon HP Ground), and Zapdos will fall to HP Ice.

All this keeps your Skarmory safe as well as let you run Roost so you can be a better physical wall for the remainder of the match. The beauty is it handles most of your threats as well.

As for Starmie, I suggest running Psychic or HP Fire over Recover if you have Wish support. Psychic so you have a definite way to OHKO Roopushin, or HP Fire for the Nattorei that think they are safe switch ins.

Also, consider Toxic over Roar on Vaporeon as with Wish and Protect you can easily stall things to death if you so need. Skarmory can already phaze anyway. Or hell, even Hail if you want to neuter the enemy's weather reliance.

I think with these changes your team will go much farther.

 

[masterful]

Nice 8-pokemon team. you will own all those teams with just 6 pokes

 

[Chou Toshio]

Nattorei does look to be your biggest problem here. Nattorei is everywhere, and it makes every single water type something of a liability. Just bringing a water pokemon into play (and you have 2!) can mean a field full of spikes for the rest of your team, with almost no return. :((

The solution is simple, but stupid in how bad it is for the pokemon's overall performance-- run Hidden Power Fire on one of your water types. In fact, HP Fire has proven so good, I'd go as far as to say that every water type outside of Rain should be packing fire or fighting attacks just for Nattorei (which is terrible, considering the repetitiveness of Water and Fire coverage, but yes Nattorei is just that much of a problem enemy).

Vappy and Starmie both have excellent special attack scores, so they will have no problem vaporizing the annoying bristle weed.

For Zapdos and Shanderaa, I'd actually switch Tyranitar for Nidoking. Tyranitar brings lots of benefits-- aside from being able to use the same kind of mixed attacking Nidoking does, it stops rain, shrugs off special attacks like nothing (even electric ones).

This is the set I would use:

Tyranitar
Brave
252 HP 236 Atk 20 Spe
Choose 4 out of: Stone Edge, Crunch, Pursuit, Fire Blast (highly recommended), Ice Beam (depends on seriousness of gliscor problems), Focus Punch, Superpower, Earthquake, Substitute

 

[Red Wolf]

Hello everyone, thanks for all the great feedback!

@Server Crash - I thought about Landlos while making this team but I decided against him because I had a scout with Scizor and I was looking for something more defensive. And I think I will try a Heatren out but in Nidos spot. Vaporeons Wish and fire resist is to good to get rid of.

@Jaroda - Thanks for getting back to me. As I said to Crash I think I will use a Heatren in place of Nido or even Hippowdon. It seems like it would have great synergy with Vap and Skarm. And since it takes some of the hazard pressure off Skarm I can run Roost :).

On Starmie I might try out HP Fire. I've had a hard time deciding on a set. I've used spin, trick with specs, and now life orb.

And on Vap I have used Hail its a lot of fun lol.

@masterful - thank you for the masterful comment and if you'd have read the post before rating you'd notice 2 of the "8" are listed as possible changes to replace members of the team.

@Chou Toshio - Thanks for all the feedback. As I said I think I will be running HP fire in the future on Starmie. As for Ttar I thought about it but I was leaning more towards Hippowdon as it has a better DW ability. Not a fan of ss unless I'm going to take full advantage.

 

[hypervortex]

for starmie, try out the following:

timid, max spatk, 220 speed (lets you hit 351 speed due to the lost speed IV from hpfire so you can still beat max gengar and lati@s), 36 hp

hydropump/surf, icebeam, thunder/thunderbolt, hpfire @ expertbelt

with the lack of recover, LO will really hamper starmies survivability, and ebelt is great to feign choice. the tad of extra hp should help cushion weaker attacks. thunder makes starmie a great all-in-one anti rain poke, though it will have kingdra issues like any other starmie, and it could always benefit from recover.

aside from that, jaroda is right on about the shedshell + heatran idea; and you are right on about using burungeru > vaporeon, since the waterghost helps against todays ubiquitous fighters and is a better, more proactive special wall than blissey. heatran would help against zapdos and jaroda as well. experiment with the scarf set, but if that doesn't work for you try out balloon, which makes for a great dory counter as well.

 

[Red Wolf]

Hey thanks for all the feedback guys. Thanks for your insights hypervortex on the vapy vs. burungeru. I'm going to start play testing the revisions and ill update when I know how its panning out.