OU Should Snorlax count as Uber in GSC?

[MaxMilen]

We all know that Snorlax has pretty much defined the GSC metagame since its inception. With that being the case, should GSC do to Snorlax what some future generations have done to certain other metagame-warping Pokemon, and count Snorlax as an Uber as opposed to an OU?

Is this a bit pointless considering we're talking about a 2-generations-ago metagame? Perhaps. Is it an overreaction to Snorlax's impact on the GSC metagame, from someone who doesn't know that metagame well? Quite likely. Would it change how the GSC metagame works? Definitely. Would the overall effect of this change be good? I have no clue.

Here's (some of) what I do know.
- For a (base) stat comparison, Snorlax has higher HP than every Uber, ties with Mewtwo (second place among Ubers) on Attack, would be third place for Special Defense (beaten only by Lugia and Ho-oh, each of which have a base Special Defense of 154 to Snorlax's 110), and is beaten by all Ubers in Speed, Defense, and Special Attack.
- Again as a way of putting things into perspective, let's look at Snorlax's best stat, HP. Snorlax's Base HP stat is 160; among fully-evolved Pokemon, this is beaten only by Blissey (255) and Wobbuffet (190). (Chansey also has higher HP than Snorlax, with base 250.)
- Among fully-evolved Pokemon, Snorlax's Attack Stat (base 110) is beaten by a total of 17 Pokemon, including 1 Uber (Ho-oh). It is tied by 5 Pokemon, including 1 Uber (Mewtwo).
- Snorlax's Speed (base 30) is part of a 9-member tie for second-LOWEST in the game among fully-evolved Pokemon, with only Shuckle (base 5) being slower. Of course, as many GSC summaries stress, Speed is relatively unimportant in the GSC metagame (and indeed, under certain circumstances, low Speed can be an advantage.)
- Also in the stats department, Snorlax's Base Stat Total is 540; for a comparison, of the Ubers, three (Ho-oh, Lugia, and Mewtwo) have a Base Stat Total of 680 (matched only by each other), and the other two (Mew and Celebi) have a Base Stat Total of 600, which is beaten only by other Ubers and is tied only by Dragonite and Tyranitar. 540 is the fifth-highest Base Stat Total in the game among fully-evolved Pokemon, counting Ubers, and Snorlax is one of 4 Pokemon with this total (the other 3 being Blissey, Kingdra, and Gyarados).
- Snorlax's GSC summary on the main site says that "EVERY effective team should be able to counter Snorlax," and later goes on to say that "There really is no bona fide Snorlax counter because of his awesome versatility, attacking power, and Special Defense."
- The few Pokemon that Snorlax's summary lists specifically as counters are almost all weak to Earthquake; the only exception is Skarmory. Considering that both the classic Curselax set and Drumlax usually have Earthquake, this further goes to show just how difficult it is to deal with Snorlax, whether or not it has Lovely Kiss.

While I can hardly claim to know the GSC metagame very well, I hope that I have at least said enough here to allow for intelligent discussion.

 

[kokoloko]

The GSC tiers aren't going to change. Besides the fact that no one plays GSC anymore, I think it's better for the community to keep them intact as a memory of how it was.

 

[Borat]

This should go to suggestions.

Stats aren't a convincing argument. Look at Tyranitar/Dragonite/Entei. It's a combination of typing (give those three Normal-typing and suddenly you've launched it to Snorlax-territory) + movepool (primary argument for unbanning Celebi) + the stats to back it (keeping something like Corsola from even cracking UU) that matter.

I'm just going to ignore the troll post there. Feel free to make a more competent argument should you feel the need to take the higher road. You shouldn't pretend to know something you don't. See this thread here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2841149

 

[Mr.E]

GSC Snorlax is better than DPP Garchomp and Salamence.

None of them should be banned.

 

[Borat]

Not a good argument either. Snorlax is better than Celebi/Ho-oh, unban those? And gives Mewtwo/Lugia a run too? Should those stay?

This isn't a new idea, brought up countless times through the years. It's fun to speculate, and maybe some odd theme tourneys, but banning Snorlax on a whole is far more destructive than productive. It's a shot to both GSC stall and GSC offense. Snorlax wasn't as dominant as it was, but it's also a lot better than it was.

 

[MaxMilen]

You want a better argument? Well, then, let's see if I can argue my case more competently. For the record, while I did give stats a lot of "time" in that post, I really didn't intend to have them be the entirety, or even the bulk, of the argument. I had some idea what I wanted to say, I'm just not that great a writer.

The primary argument, really, should probably have been "Snorlax IS the GSC metagame," and I should also have given a lot more time to the movepool. So, let's talk about the movepool, and other factors that made Snorlax the giant it is in the GSC metagame.

Exhibit A: Curse. According to the mainsite, Snorlax was also OU in RBY, but this move is why it made it into OU in GSC. Curse allowed Snorlax to sacrifice its least important stat (Speed) to boost its second-best stat (Attack) and bolster the somewhat-low Defense that was meant to be a balancing factor. Since Snorlax already had good longevity, owing to its high HP, high Special Defense, and the fact that its Defense wasn't really that bad, Curse just made an already hard-to-kill Pokemon even harder to kill, and more likely to rack up kills.

Exhibit B: Belly Drum. Another new move that was a major boon for Snorlax. It could afford to sacrifice HP, both because it had so much and because its defenses weren't low enough to counteract this, and the result was that its already-high Attack shot through the roof. After just one turn, Snorlax would be strong enough to OHKO most opponents.

Exhibit C: Leftovers. Yes, Leftovers. Hardly exclusive to Snorlax, of course; very few of the main site's GSC summaries recommend an item other than Leftovers. Still, on Snorlax, they were particularly effective, owing to its high HP. Since the healing from Leftovers is percentage-based (1/16 of Max HP per turn) rather than absolute, Snorlax simply gets more out of it than most Pokemon (in its case, 33 HP per turn; to compare, Porygon2, the median for HP in the OU tier, gets 23). While 33 HP per turn may not sound like a lot, considering Snorlax's defenses, that adds up quickly.

Exhibit D: Earthquake. I mentioned this in the OP, but didn't give it enough time. 100 power with 100 accuracy is already a good deal, even before factoring in type advantages. Flying-types are not widespread in GSC; only 5 are BL, 2 are OU, and 2 are Uber. Of the BL and OU Flying-types, two (Skarmory from OU, and Aerodactyl from BL) resist Normal. On top of that, five types are weak to Ground. Particularly relevant are the fact that the only two types that resist Normal (Steel and Rock) are both weak to Ground. While Earthquake being a threat is hardly unique to Snorlax, the combination of Snorlax having Earthquake available to it, and its already-established high Attack stat and ability to boost that stat, do make it relevant here.

Exhibit E: Typing. Snorlax is a Normal type. That Normal is immune to Ghost is nearly immaterial; Ghost isn't that great a type in GSC, having only one non-set damage move worth mentioning (Shadow Ball). That Normal has only one weakness, Fighting, is VERY significant. Fighting was not yet a very good type in GSC. While it was better than in RBY (due to Psychics being far less overpowered in GSC than in RBY), it was still at a bit of a disadvantage, mostly because of its limited movepool as a type. I'm going to go more into that in my next point. Yes, Fighting is a Physical type, and Snorlax's Defense is significantly lower than its Special Defense; but then, Curse means that that low Defense isn't as much of a factor as it might otherwise have been. Having only one weakness, and that Weakness being one that wasn't a great type, certainly added to Snorlax's advantages.

Exhibit F: Fighting's movepool. Compared to other types, Fighting's movepool in GSC is extremely limited. Its best move, Cross Chop, can only be learned by 5 Pokemon other than Smeargle, and only gets 5 PP. As for the next few moves down... Dynamicpunch is saddled with 50% accuracy (and again, only has 5 PP), Hi Jump Kick is only available to the Hitmon line, and Vital Throw has negative priority (and only 70 power). Hidden Power, of course, can help, but unless it has STAB, HP Fighting still probably won't hit Snorlax as hard as a good STAB move from the same Pokemon, and as far as Pokemon that would get STAB from Hidden Power Fighting, well, see the next point.

Exhibit G: Fighting's Pokemon pool. GSC has only 7 fully-evolved Pokemon. Machamp is pretty good. Poliwrath has bad typing, its stats are only so-so, and its movepool isn't great either. Heracross is pretty good, but unless it's running Endure/Reversal or HP Fighting, won't be able to take advantage of the Fighting type very well. Primeape's HP and defenses are a bit on the low side. The Hitmons have even lower HP, their defenses aren't so hot, and their movepools leave something to be desired. So, countering Snorlax with an STAB Fighting move is... unlikely.

I may be able to provide additional evidence later on, but in the meantime, I hope I've at least started toward a competent case.

 

[Borat]

That's still somewhat close-minded thinking. Breaking down snorlax like that is hardly a proper way to judge such a drastic notion, any other pokemon and it'll be viable, but not Snorlax. Start with the initial argument: Snorlax is the metagame. This is true.

Now picture a metagame without Snorlax, what would that be like? Use speculation to the best of your ability because realistically this will never happen, and if it does, it'll be another decade. From my experience and my knowledge of the game, a metagame without Snorlax is far more unbalanced than with.

Snorlax is the best pokemon in GSC, no one can argue that. By every argument that's not specifically catered to Snorlax's unique case is not worth debating. It's a specific kink that keeps GSC going and maintains the balance between the two sides, and makes both perfectly viable, and it's a really special role that can't be explained. Plus, Snorlax IS beatable, and with pretty good regularity. The counters and plentiful, and the best part, most of the counters are OU anyway. LK is another story.

 

[Jorgen]

From my experience and my knowledge of the game, a metagame without Snorlax is far more unbalanced than with.

How so, specifically? I'm not really contesting, I just want to get another viewpoint and see what your experience says. My intuition has held that a Snorlax-less meta would lack its biggest offensive threat, and would in turn become the ultra-stall meta everyone stereotypically believes GSC to be. Either that, or Raikou just runs rampant. Either way, I can see how the lack of Snorlax balances things out, though it's definitely odd to say that the pokemon that absolutely defines the metagame is the force that balances it.

 

[Borat]

The counters and plentiful, and the best part, most of the counters are OU anyway.

That's key. Just as well: Snorlax is the offensive kink on many a teams, and the defensive kink on many others. It gives offensive teams a chance against defensive teams, and defensive teams a chance against offensive teams. It's hard to expand much more on that without overlapping my "get rid of LK [drum]lax" contribution that I'll soon be submitting. You really have to understand snorlax a bit more, and break it down completely and you'll see. A decade's experience and half-decade worth of theorymon doesn't hurt either.

Furthermore, following your analysis, would an "ultra-stall meta" be more balanced than the one we have with Snorlax? I don't think so.

edit:

Just in case I was being hazy, a meta where both an ultra defensive team, an ultra offensive team, and everything in between can succeed, isn't that the ultimate form of balance??

 

[gumnas]

Curse

Curse is not what makes Snorlax OU. Snorlax doesn't NEED it. Yes, it is a great option. One of best certainly. But it isn't the definition of Snorlax anymore. Curse is more of a strategical move on Snorlax rather than a set-up and sweep move. It is also true with other Pokémon, like Skarmory. Curse isn't offensive enough in GSC terms. Growltank/Charmbreon + Reflect/Psychic Starmie is enough to stop every curser in GSC I think.

Ghost isn't that great a type in GSC, having only one non-set damage move worth mentioning (Shadow Ball). That Normal has only one weakness, Fighting, is VERY significant. Fighting was not yet a very good type in GSC. While it was better than in RBY (due to Psychics being far less overpowered in GSC than in RBY)

You need to be more specific. Are you talking about Pokémon-type or Move-type? Ghost is terrible as a Move-type, but it is certainlly one of the best Pokémon-type. Fighting is the contrary. Bad Pokémon-type, but great Move-type.

Anyway, you forgot the most important point: Lovely Kiss. This makes Snorlax Uber-like. LK Snorlax unbalance GSC. I'd rather ban LK on it instead of the whole Pokémon.

 

[MaxMilen]

You need to be more specific. Are you talking about Pokémon-type or Move-type? Ghost is terrible as a Move-type, but it is certainlly one of the best Pokémon-type. Fighting is the contrary. Bad Pokémon-type, but great Move-type.

I meant move-type. I should have been more specific; you're right, as a Pokemon type, it's very good, due to its two immunities (and the fact that, while it only has two fully-evolved Pokemon, both have the stats and movesets to be VERY good).

As for Fighting, well, I'll agree with you there. While its movepool in GSC is quite limited, at least what it does have is pretty good. Cross Chop should perhaps have been available to more Pokemon, but considering that I completely ignored Reversal in my last post, and that is a good move on a Pokemon that can use it properly...

Anyway, you forgot the most important point: Lovely Kiss. This makes Snorlax Uber-like. LK Snorlax unbalance GSC. I'd rather ban LK on it instead of the whole Pokémon.

So I did.


EDIT: In response to Borat's suggestion of using speculation, well... that's where my knowledge of GSC is woefully insufficient. I will ask this, though; in your opinion, can a team be successful without incorporating Snorlax? If it can't, I would say that this might be an indication that Snorlax should indeed be moved to Uber. Not necessarily, though; see the following paragraphs.

To clarify, the above is similar to the "staple argument" sometimes seen in TCG discussions. A card reaching staple status (that is, a card that must be incorporated into all, or nearly all, effective decks) can often be a sign that the card should not be legal, but not always. Context must be considered; sometimes, it's a bad thing for a card to be a staple, but sometimes it's a good thing. It all depends on the game, the card, and other factors.

Let's use the early Pokemon TCG as an example. Certain Trainer cards reached staple status because they were just that good. Gust of Wind (think Roar/Whirlwind, but with the Pokemon to come out being chosen by the user of Roar/Whirlwind, and without the "negative priority" aspect) could easily be argued to be bad for the game, as it too easily gave a player control over which of their opponent's Pokemon was active, minimizing the skill involved in a player themselves choosing which Pokemon to have Active at any particular time. Energy Removal and Super Energy Removal also proved to be bad for the game, as they made high Energy costs more of a downside than they were supposed to be, allowed players to "lock in" Pokemon with higher Retreat Costs (more so than intended), and weakened Special Energy cards considerably due to the relative difficulty of retrieving them. On the other hand, Switch also reached staple status, but was not bad for the game, and in fact proved to be very good for it; it allowed players a way to work around the high Retreat Costs that some Pokemon had, allowed Pokemon to be benched in situations where a standard retreat was not an option, and so on. When the Modified Format was introduced, Gust of Wind, Energy Removal, and Super Energy Removal would find themselves permanently relegated to the Unlimited Format, whereas Switch would find itself reprinted often so as to remain available in Modified Formats to come.

So, getting back to the topic at hand, Snorlax, let's assume for a moment that Snorlax must be included on every effective team; that is, that it is a "staple". Is it like Energy Removal, a staple because it's that powerful and that bad for the game, or is it like Switch, still a staple but not bad for the game? You, Borat, are saying that it's more like Switch, and this is where my relative lack of knowledge prevents me from accurately reaching a conclusion.

If Snorlax is indeed a "staple", then it becomes a major determining factor in teambuilding, moreso perhaps than any other Pokemon. If it must be included in every effective team, then team building is no longer "choose 6 Pokemon," it's "take Snorlax and add 5 Pokemon." Moreover, in such a case, those other 5 Pokemon must be chosen in such a way as to account for Snorlax. This, in a way, actually makes teambuilding less skillful, as it simplifies the process significantly. However, teambuilding alone is not the only measure of skill, just as deckbuilding is not the only measure of skill in a TCG; just as gameplay is also an element of skill that cannot be ignored in a TCG, skill during battle is an element that cannot be ignored here. If Snorlax adds enough skill to the battles themselves, its "negative" impact on the skill of teambuilding may be outweighed by this. This is where my lack of knowledge hurts my case.

 

[gumnas]

As for Fighting, well, I'll agree with you there. While its movepool in GSC is quite limited, at least what it does have is pretty good. Cross Chop should perhaps have been available to more Pokemon, but considering that I completely ignored Reversal in my last post, and that is a good move on a Pokemon that can use it properly...

The movepool is a problem, but the type in itself is very good. This is one of the reasons why things like Dynamicpunch is somewhat popular in GSC.

 

[Mr.E]

Only Gengar/Tyranitar use DPunch with any regularity and it's almost solely because of Blissey. Gengar otherwise has no way around Blissey and even T-Tar has to shoot for an unlikely double flinch or crit+flinch with Rock Slide. Snorlax punishes a miss too badly (Gengar in particular doesn't hit it hard enough anyway) and nobody gives a shit about T-Tar.

Heracross would rock that shit for Skarmory, though, if it could learn it...

Snorlax is better than Celebi/Ho-oh, unban those?

I can troll too, yo: That's not a very good argument right there, you know! (Seriously.) The status of our legendary ubers has nothing to do with the status of Snorlax. If you want to argue that they should be unbanned, take that complaint elsewhere.

Mewtwo is still a damn boss and I think you're underrating the rest of 'em anyway, though. Celebi's movepool might not be large but it has a lot of semi-exclusive support moves (Leech Seed, Heal Bell, Perish Song, Baton Pass) that make it well worth using.

 

[gumnas]

Only Gengar/Tyranitar use DPunch with any regularity and it's almost solely because of Blissey. Gengar otherwise has no way around Blissey and even T-Tar has to shoot for an unlikely double flinch or crit+flinch with Rock Slide. Snorlax punishes a miss too badly (Gengar in particular doesn't hit it hard enough anyway) and nobody gives a shit about T-Tar.

Of course its not very popular in general. What expect from a 50% accuracy attacking move? I said it is SOMEWHAT popular.

Anyway, if Gengar runs it, it is certainly because of Ttar. Blissey goes down with Perish Song or Explosion.

 

[Borat]

can a team be successful without incorporating Snorlax?

Successful teams can be made without the use of Snorlax. And that's not to say, take out snorlax, add in something inferior, but rather, replacing any one of these pokemon with Snorlax would make the team worse. Teams like these do exist, though rare.

@Mr.E: Saying Gengar runs DP primarily for Blissey and NOT ttar (the latter of which has a hard counter move in Pursuit) is blatant ignorance on your part. [Gengar can explode on Blissey, can trap too.] And saying Tyranitar runs DP primarily for Blissey and NOT Snorlax (the latter of which, the best pokemon in the game) is also blatant ignorance on your part. That's like saying Tyranitar runs Pursuit primarily for Alakazam and not Gengar/Missy/Egg.

Blissey isn't that good. Not saying it's terrible, certainly not with the popularity of Vaporeon and HP legends, plus it learns Sing and screens. But saying people are actively going out of their way to counter Blissey just so Gengar could "sweep" is a lack of understanding for the game. Gengar is a bait-exploder, one of the best at it. It's not sweeping teams, and it doesn't have to. Same thing with Tyranitar. Tyranitar is now relegated to mostly pursuit duties (and eggy has paid attention, all of them run either Sleep or Drain now). Blissey's not that great.

Heracross does a "whopping" 101-118 to Skarm with a hypothetical DP hit + confusion. S-toss does 100. And the only time confusion should matter is if you have no other choice but to leave Heracross in to fight skarm, which has always been a horrible idea unless you can kill the next hit (which in this case, is still a horrible idea because you're relying on a 50% acc move, and if you miss, you die).

For the sake of consistency, just because something is "better" is not necessarily the case in which they are banned. The most prominent of these examples is, of course, Snorlax vs Celebi. It's pretty clear you're not willing to flatout state "Celebi is better than Snorlax", because quite frankly, that isn't true. Using dodgy declarations such as "Celebi is a better beller", or "Celebi is a better support" hardly proves otherwise.

Ubers are merely a "class" of pokemon in this regard, not necessarily a tier, is that what you're saying? In a sense, some pokemon are just "born" uber, hence your classifying them "legendary ubers", completely independent from the actual argument of usability. But I don't think that was the intent of this thread.

 

[MaxMilen]

Out of curiosity, Borat, I'd like to see 1 or 2 examples of good teams that don't/shouldn't use Snorlax.

Even if there are good teams that don't use Snorlax, though, the fact that it is used in the vast majority of successful GSC teams means that the "staple" analogy still holds. Of course, as I pointed out in that post, merely being a staple is not sufficient reason to ban something. (On the same note, not being a staple is not sufficient reason to not ban something.) Really, being a staple simply "calls attention" to something. The key component is warping the game/metagame in a bad way. We already know that Snorlax is a huge determining factor in the GSC metagame; as has been said many times, Snorlax is the GSC metagame. The question at hand has been, "Overall, is Snorlax's effect on the GSC metagame good or bad?"

As it turns out, it's probably a good thing that I didn't post this in Suggestions. While it was indeed an oversight of sorts, I actually did believe that it would first be a good idea to gather opinions and information.

For the sake of consistency, just because something is "better" is not necessarily the case in which they are banned. The most prominent of these examples is, of course, Snorlax vs Celebi. It's pretty clear you're not willing to flatout state "Celebi is better than Snorlax", because quite frankly, that isn't true. Using dodgy declarations such as "Celebi is a better beller", or "Celebi is a better support" hardly proves otherwise.

I certainly wouldn't make that statement about Celebi vs. Snorlax. It's an "apples to oranges" comparison, and therefore effectively meaningless. Since the role Celebi would have on a team is not even similar to the one Snorlax would have, there's no point in comparing the two. Snorlax should only be compared to other Pokemon that would perform similar roles. Even then, see the next paragraph.

As you said, simply being "better" isn't sufficient reason to ban something. To go back to the early Pokemon TCG example, banning something for being "better" would be like banning Blastoise simply because it was "better" than other options. (It was, incidentally; Rain Dance was one of the first Tier 1 decks, but even at that time, there were a fair number of other viable options; Damage Swap and Haymaker spring to mind.) Again, it's a matter of how (and how badly) the game and metagame are affected.

Even when I made this topic, I wasn't sure that moving Snorlax to Uber (effectively banning it) was a good idea (though I also wasn't sure that it wasn't). As is, I'm still not sure one way or the other, but I think I'm starting to better understand the situation. Yes, Snorlax is a huge determining factor in the GSC metagame. Yes, it is probably a major reason that certain other Pokemon are not as viable as they otherwise might be. Yes, it's a "near-staple". But I certainly cannot definitively say that its overall effect on the game is bad.

 

[Borat]

Snorlax is the metagame, Snorlax is the best pokemon in GSC, etc etc, but Snorlax is overhyped. Teams reliant on Snorlax are bad teams, and mindsets reliant on Snorlax will result in misplays, etc. He's great, he's the best, but he's NOT THAT GOOD. Many people forget that they have 5 other pokemon on your team, but most (especially if lax isn't the exploding kind) just feel no Snorlax die = lose. That's why they'll never get better. Learning to play Snorlax and against Snorlax is important, but learning to play without it makes the game that much easier. He's just 1/6th of your team after all (or should be, anyway). It can't do everything, though it damn near could. And he is beatable (sort of, AGI passed to drum lk lax not so much).

And without going into specifics, vil's tss lacked Snorlax.

I certainly wouldn't make that statement about Celebi vs. Snorlax. It's an "apples to oranges" comparison, and therefore effectively meaningless.

This is false. It's one thing if I'm comparing Skarmory to Blissey or something, but in this case, it's two completely different levels. I can say "Zapdos is better than Granbull", and you can throw your "no, because it's comparing apples to oranges" argument at me, but it clearly won't fly. Same concept here. Snorlax is better than Celebi. I don't care about roles in this case. Now, Snorlax vs Lugia/Mew[two] is a different story.

But I certainly cannot definitively say that its overall effect on the game is bad.

This is definitely the main argument for banning something.

http://pastebin.com/81yrAPhf

 

[MaxMilen]

Just to clarify, I said "I wouldn't make that statement." I never said the statement was false. Basically, if I were building a team, and were considering Celebi, I would not be considering it for the same slot as Snorlax. 'Course, that doesn't mean I wasn't wrong.

In any case, thanks for the link.

 

[SJCrew]

Borat, I'm not sure you entirely understand why Celebi was considered Uber to begin with to make such a bold statement that "Snorlax is better than Celebi". If we applied our modern day characteristics here, Celebi would fit the Defensive and Support roles magnificently, as it stalls out almost everything in the game with its then awesome defenses, Leech Seed and Recover.

All the stuff that counters it now is product of EV training, the physical/special split, and the new moves Pokemon obtained to combat it. We didn't have a powerful Crunch or Uturn back then and Heracross didn't have Choice Scarf to kill it with Megahorn. Celebi could just Leech Seed, attack, and Recover on anything in the game. Your best bet is something with Fire Blast and even Houndoom, who was then considered one of the best Fire types back then, could barely KO, would take a Leech Seed and Celebi would switch. Killing it was incredibly difficult.

 

[Borat]

I'm not sure you understand Snorlax entirely to deny such a statement. I'm also not sure what "modern day characteristics" alludes to, but that sounds like a pretty bogus term ultimately holding no significance. And considering you sure as hell weren't there to witness the Celebi ban, and seeing that I merely got a synopsis of the ban from the player that caused it, as well as over 3 years experience playing in a meta with it, I'd say I know a bit more than you about "why Celebi was considered Uber to begin with". Unless you're referring to pre-Smogon days, the very very early years, in which case, the ban was simple: semantics. #251 automatically put it in uber contention, along with #150, #151, #249, and #250.

Killing stuff was incredibly difficult in GSC, your point? Suggesting Houndoom (and I hate how you're referring to "then" as if it was so long ago) with Fire Blast as one of the best Celebi "counters" shows a pretty lack of understanding for GSC. You can't just blindly attack in GSC and hope to get away with it. Fire Blast isn't hitting anything but Tyranitar/Snorlax, and the occasional Raikou or something. This isn't adv, where shit falls in 1-2 nve hits. And using your "roles" analogy, Snorlax is the only pokemon in GSC that fits EVERY role, defensive (both physical and special), offensive, support, everything. (PS: Shouldn't support and defensive ALWAYS be tied together? Just saying, that's the case with GSC anyway, except BP-ers. If you're defensive, you're either using some inconsequential move that probably isn't intended to kill anything, or you're just "supporting" the team in its quest to fight another day by filling that defensive gap, aka not die.).

Ultimately, the argument DOESN'T boil down to "who's better" as the primary reason to suggest a ban. It could bring to attention a certain pokemon, but it's the overall effect on the metagame that matters. Because of that, this isn't a plea to unban Celebi/Ho-oh or anything, despite Snorlax being better than both of them. Ho-oh would be interesting though.

 

[havoc]

"And without going into specifics, vil's tss lacked Snorlax."

recall that ViL's TSS team was anchored by Celebi. :/

would GSC become an ultimate stalling match with Snorlax banned? I'm uncertain, but I honestly think it could go either way. just as Borat said, Snorlax gives offensive teams a chance against defensive teams, BUT it also gives defensive teams a chance against offensive teams, right? something has to give. the problem with a lot of stall/defensive teams is the fact that they just don't have the offensive capabilities to be able to take out other teams.

would Zapdos and Raikou "run rampant"? I highly doubt it. that's taking speculation a little too far.

"It's one thing if I'm comparing Skarmory to Blissey or something, but in this case, it's two completely different levels. I can say "Zapdos is better than Granbull", and you can throw your "no, because it's comparing apples to oranges" argument at me, but it clearly won't fly. Same concept here. Snorlax is better than Celebi. I don't care about roles in this case. Now, Snorlax vs Lugia/Mew[two] is a different story."

if I'm not mistaken, you told me yourself that Snorlax (not the LK set, the pokemon itself) is "probably" better than Hypnomissy. but you gave me the impression that Hypnomissy should still be banned.

I personally feel that if we're going to make all of these decisions 5 years after GSC basically disappeared, we either need to make all the big decisions at once, or just leave everything as it is. I'm of the opinion that if we're going to allow Snorlax, and Snorlax is "better" than Celebi or Ho-oh--that is, to use Borat's definition that Snorlax is on a level completely higher than Celebi and/or Ho-oh--then we need to allow Celebi and/or Ho-oh too. If Snorlax is better than Hypnomissy, then let Hypnomissy in too; I guarantee things would get more offensive-oriented then, if that's what these people are looking for.

EDIT: posted this without knowledge of the above post, I'll edit accordingly later.

 

[SJCrew]

"Modern day characteristics" refers to what we use to decide what bans Pokemon now. Not that hard to understand.

I'm not claiming to have extensive knowledge of the GSC metagame, but I've heard some of these arguments come and go and they actually seem theoretically sound. I can definitely see Celebi being banned for being a stalling whore, since most of the things that beat it now are simply not applicable.

Anyway, I'm going to end the argument here since I'm clearly out of my element. For future references, just tone it down a notch. There's being militant, then there's being annoying. Just saying.

 

[Borat]

recall that ViL's TSS team was anchored by Celebi.

He asked, he shall receive. And he did.

the problem with a lot of stall/defensive teams is the fact that they just don't have the offensive capabilities to be able to take out other teams.

This isn't true. It's pretty damn difficult for a stall to take out another stall, but a stall should have no problems taking out anything quicker (anything non-stall).

would Zapdos and Raikou "run rampant"? I highly doubt it. I highly doubt it. that's taking speculation a little too far.

As if they hadn't already. Point being, Raikou becomes the premier special wall in GSC (blissey still sucking), boosting its popularity. Zapdos loses one of its biggest threats (but it still won't get past Raikou, granted, statistically, Raikou shouldn't be able to KO Zapdos all that often either). Just saying, both of them will be a hell of a lot better than they already are, which is already pretty fucking good.

but you gave me the impression that Hypnomissy should still be banned.
...
then let Hypnomissy in too

Ultimately, the argument DOESN'T boil down to "who's better" as the primary reason to suggest a ban. It could bring to attention a certain pokemon, but it's the overall effect on the metagame that matters. Because of that, this isn't a plea to unban Celebi/Ho-oh or anything, despite Snorlax being better than both of them.

I assume that's what you meant by "posted this without knowledge of the above post".

Ho-oh does make things interesting though, like I said, adds a defensive and offensive flair to things. It's not about making the metagame more "offensive-oriented", it's achieving that balance where both tempos can be used effectively. Offense is nice to play, but it's pretty stupid if [over] half the team just explodes resulting in a Curselax/Vaporeon ending (sexual innuendo?). That's not fun, not to me; there's hardly any strategy/skill in that. It could be good for kicks once in a while, but as being one of the best formats for a team? Hardly. Stalls have the slight upper hand versus Explosion, no other type of team does. But where are the stalls today?

If anything, I'm seeing that there needs to be more stall teams to fix the TOO offensive minded metagame. That's to say, what used to be intricately designed offense based on beating stalls are now mindless offense based on beating other offensive teams. Because stalls have all but died out, that means these "fail" (see definition in my 2 year old thread) teams are being undeservingly rewarded for a poorly balanced metagame. Shit like cursepgon2, curselax, curserhydon... doesn't work at all versus a stall team. But against another offensive team? You bet. Stalls need to restore that balance. Good offense > stall > bad offense > good offense etc.

 

[Mr.E]

Inconsequential to the topic at hand but whatever. :[

I don't know where you guys get these silly ideas of stall and offense and blagh blagh blagh. Maybe it's just me but the difference between an "offensive" team and a "stall" team isn't big enough in GSC for the terms to have much meaning. And I love how you disparagingly label Curselax as "bad offense," Borat...

@Mr.E: Saying Gengar runs DP primarily for Blissey and NOT ttar (the latter of which has a hard counter move in Pursuit) is blatant ignorance on your part. [Gengar can explode on Blissey, can trap too.] And saying Tyranitar runs DP primarily for Blissey and NOT Snorlax (the latter of which, the best pokemon in the game) is also blatant ignorance on your part. That's like saying Tyranitar runs Pursuit primarily for Alakazam and not Gengar/Missy/Egg.

Gengar may as well run Hypnosis to get away from T-Tar more reliably than attempting to cripple it with Dynamicpunch. With regard to Blissey, Perish Trapping requires at least a second moveslot (Mean Look), if not a dedicated moveset, and Explosion has a rather obvious drawback. T-Tar can also be worn down due to its lack of recovery, which is not the case with Blissey.

Tyranitar's Dynamicpunch deals less than 50% to Snorlax and it misses half the time. It's useful in certain circumstances but you'd be foolish to just sit there and try slugging it out against a healthy Snorlax. Blissey is another matter, as Blissey poses no threat to T-Tar normally. Missing a DP or two is no big deal, you're just allowing it to do whatever it was going to do while you would otherwise be trolling for a double Rock Slide flinch (set up Light Screen, remove status, whatever).

I would never say Pursuit is for Alakazam. It's obviously for Gengar, because Missy isn't even a relevant pokémon with Perish Sleep Trapping banned (I like to call it the "Misdreavus ban.") and it's garbage against both 'Zam and Eggy. Yeah, call me ignorant and then go on to say Pursuit is useful against Exeggutor...

Heracross does a "whopping" 101-118 to Skarm with a hypothetical DP hit + confusion. S-toss does 100. And the only time confusion should matter is if you have no other choice but to leave Heracross in to fight skarm, which has always been a horrible idea unless you can kill the next hit (which in this case, is still a horrible idea because you're relying on a 50% acc move, and if you miss, you die).

Sure, Seismic Toss is better if you catch Skarm nearly-dead (or on the switch at or below 180 HP). Otherwise, DP is better because of the confusion.

Heracross cannot normally break Skarmory on its own. Seismic Toss only works in a specific circumstance which is difficult to catch Skarm in and it can never win straight-up. (While 1v1 is typically not important on its own, what matters here is that Skarmory can switch in even while Resting from the previous encounter and still force Heracross out.) Dynamicpunch is better at chipping away on the switch because when you hit, Skarmory will fail to Rest off the damage half the time and be more vulnerable the next time you see it. I suppose you could use both if you really wanted, then you can force it out or attempt a 50/50 kill by confusing it while asleep.

It's the same principle as using Zap Cannon (or Confuse Ray) on Umbreon. It punishes the counter and hey, just maybe next time they'll fully paralyze and you'll successfully Pass off. What, did you think it's there to kill things? It can hardly kill Skarmory, let alone Suicune or anything else.

 

[Nitro.]

I've been playing a lot of GSC on netbattle lately, and there are so many teams that just straight up can't stop standard curselax. It's kind of absurd. Stalls really do need to come back. I try to use one every now and then but it's so boring and easy...