Signature Items

[Frosty]

works

thanks.

I have no idea what is next. I am guessing Reaper Cloth?

so I will just nag JJayyFeather

 

[Frosty]

So our list is:

• Inversion Charm
• FWG Stones
• Dawn/Dusk Stones
• Link Cable and Soothe Bell
• Protector
• Stick
• Jaw Fossil
• Old Amber
• Sandy/Plant/Trash Cloak
• Relic Crown
• Mega Stones starting with Houndoominite
• Sail Fossil
• Reaper Cloth
• Drives: Resolved (Signature --> Attachment)
• Plume Fossil
• Skull Fossil
• Solar Ray
• Lunar Ray
• Signature Z-Crystals

So we have Reaper Cloth, Solar Ray and Lunar Ray.

Leaving Sig Z-Crystal for last (as it smells like trouble), my take on the three above is:

Reaper Cloth: Its power is lacking, I will give you that. We can probably keep the pressure boost, as it fulfills a nice stall role. To add to it I'd suggest:
a) Boost Ghost-Typed moves
b) Boost Atk or SpA
c) Boost Defenses
d) Give it access to Phantom or Shadow Force (please? :>)
e) Some combination of the above.

Personally I would go +2 Ghost + Phantom Force. But I am partial here.

Solar Ray: I am guessing that the problem lies in Lycanroc? I agree that activating Sand Rush AND Steadfast is just redundant. Steadfast is due to Lucario, so we should probably keep it as is. But what about we boost Keen Eye instead of Sand Rush? Give it perfect accuracy on all moves, or No-Guard (only while hitting, not for when being hit) if you are feeling extra generous. That way you can boost atk and let it reach 6atk, while still having a fuckton of speed and perfect accuracy. Granted it will still suck, but...oh well, nothing we can do about it.

Also Lurantis sucks, but it will suck regardless sooo...

Lunar Ray: Seems fine. If Marowak-A is a problem just add a "This item turns into a Thick Club if held by a Marowak-A, losing all other effects" clause. Ridiculous, sure, but why on earth would you want anything other than double atk ffs?

 

[TMan87]

On Reaper Cloth: I'm inclined to allow the user to use Phantom Force as it'd make sense from a flavor standpoint, Shadow Force may be a bit too much.
The item already boosts physical Ghost-type moves by 3 BAP, we could make it so it extends to all Ghost-type moves.

Not sold on an offense increase and certainly strongly against increasing defenses when you already lose an absurd amount of EN attacking the thing and Ghost is a decent defensive typing.

 

[JJayyFeather]

Whoops sorry for not paying any attention here. But hey, we got it moving!
======
Reaper Cloth
I have a couple angles on this one:
- If we're going to give Dusknoir access to Phantom Force this way, I don't think we give it any other boons. One of my biggest complaints with this item was just how narrow its boost was, but giving it an actual Ghost-typed Physical move so that the boost is meaningful addresses that gripe for me.
- The other side of my thought process says I would much rather just extended its Ghost-type move bonus BAP to all Ghost-typed moves, enabling mixed Dusknoir and more importantly, again, hitting more moves.

I'm only playing it safe here because I've been convinced for a while that Dusknoir is a very viable mon. It's definitely not a fringe pick at all. My reasoning for wanting to change it just has to do with how limiting its boost feels, and I'm not really willing to dump more power onto this mon.

Solar Ray

Solar Ray - Item Cost: 8 CC | Effect: The Pokemon's Magic Bounce makes the Pokemon immune to the negative effects (ex. loss of ability, evasion drop, perish counter) of all Status category moves not initiated by the user or an ally (ex. Skill Swap, Gravity, Perish Song). Morning Sun will always heal for its highest possible HP value. Triggers Justified and Steadfast once upon sendout. Increases the BAP boost from Strong Jaw by two (2). Sand Rush and Leaf Guard are always active. Increases the Pokemon's highest true base stat (e.g. 130 Atk, 85 SpD) of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense by one (1) rank each.

The above is for reference because I think it's important.

The item was suggested for changes because Lycanroc-D's interaction with the item is utterly useless. There's just a point at which its speed no longer matters because nothing is catching up. As for ways to change it, I like Frosty's suggestion of "triggering" Keen Eye, but I would only give it a +1 natural accuracy stage personally.

Additionally, Lurantis gets basically no help from this item aside from Leaf Guard (lul). Just slap on the clause we put onto Inversion Charm. "Contrary only affects negative stage changes."

Lunar Ray
This one is actually not supposed to be a topic, but me back then did not review this suggestion properly.
- Lycanroc-N already has the fact that it has both Keen Eye and No Guard accounted for in its item.
- Marowak-A is too goddamn hard to build a sig item for when Thick Club will just always be strictly better.

 

[TMan87]

About Z-Crystals:
Z-Crystals linked to a viable enough move could have a default effect along the lines of
"Boosts the Pokémon's STABs by 1. Boosts the power of the linked move by an additional [insert balanced number here, I'm thinking 2]".

This would include Aloraichum Z, Decidium Z, Incinium Z, Lycanium Z, Mewnium Z, Mimikium Z.

Now, there are Z-Crystals for which this default effect wouldn't work, or is a bit underwhelming.
Here's what I suggest for them:

Eevium Z: Boosts the Pokémon's STAB by 2. Allows the use of Last Resort after four (4) unique actions.
Kommomium Z: Boosts the Pokémon's STABs by 1. Clanging Scales no longer drops Defense upon use.
Pikanium Z: Boosts the Pokémon's STAB by 2. Removes recoil damage from Volt Tackle. (why anyone would use that over Light Ball is unknown but eh)
Primarium Z: Boosts the Pokémon's STABs by 1. Boosts the power of Sparkling Aria by an additional 1. Sparkling Aria does not hit allies in Doubles+.
Snorlium Z: Boosts the Pokémon's STAB by 1. Giga Impact no longer makes the user Sluggish. Instead, Giga Impact cannot be used twice in a row.
Tapunium Z: Boosts the Pokémon's STABs by 1. Removes the EN cost of Surge Abilities on sendout and makes them last five (5) rounds.

I left aside Lunalium Z, Marshadium Z, Pikashunium Z, Solganium Z and Ultranecrozium Z because they are currently unobtainable in ASB, but they'd probably fit into the first category.

Of course I suck at balancing stuff so that might not be what they need.

 

[JJayyFeather]

Tabling the above until we actually get to the Z-Crystals.

 

[Toon]

Let's keep this going ig

Reaper Cloth:
Slate 1
a) Increase BAP of ALL Ghost-Typed moves by three (3)
b) Give it access to Phantom Force
c) All of the above
d) leave as is

Slate 2
a) Boost Atk Rank
b) Boost SpA Rank
c) Highest Stat (in this case Def and SpD for Dusclops and Dusknoir)
d) leave as is

Solar Ray:
Slate 1
A) Remove Sand Rush Boost with "Keen eye has perfect accuracy on all moves"
B) Remove Sand Rush Boost with "Keen Eye has +1 natural Accuracy Stage"
C) Leave as is

Slate 2
A) Include "Contrary only affects negative stage changes"
B) Leave as is

Lunar Ray:
Slate 1
A) Leave as is
(Made it into a slate just in case someone has any suggestions before vote actually goes up)

poll goes up in 24hr unless discussion breaks out

 

[P2X7]

Lunar Ray:
I don't want to be mean, as I know we were all very busy when Gen VII was implemented, but this is the shoddiest signature item I have seen in my five years playing this game, and I think it needs some fairly major changes.
- Lycanroc's interaction with Lunar Ray is laughably poor. While the negation of No Guard's drawbacks works fine for Mega Pidgeot, for which the benefit was designed, Lycanroc gains very little benefit from this hastily ported effect: a Pokemon that learns no D/E moves, like Lycanroc, is deprived of the item's best benefit, and the only commonly seen moves Lycanroc could realistically evade with the other side of Lunar Ray's boon are Hydro Pump and Focus Blast. An accuracy drop to only two of the 600+ attacks is too pitifully weak to consider wasting an item slot on, and the Attack rank boost does little to mitigate the fact that Lycanroc would be better served by almost any other offensive item, which violates the core idea of signature items generally being optimal—or at least viable—choices for their affected Pokemon.

Moreover, Lunar Ray's effect is staggeringly ill-fitting for Lycanroc-MN, whose movepool includes several attacks dependant on the amount of damage Lycanroc has received and whose Pokedex entries mention that it "[attacks] with no regard for its own safety" and "doesn't seem to mind getting hurt at all—as long as it can finish off its opponents." Approaching the situation from a flavor perspective: signature items are specially designed to augment their bearer' natural abilities and strengths, and such items have no business encouraging a holder to fight in ways that contradict the Pokemon's natural fighting style.

With these factors in mind, I'd like to suggest the following effect:

If the holder has the Ability No Guard, all oncoming attacks damage their user for an amount equal to [100 - (Base accuracy of move used)]% of the damage inflicted upon this Pokemon (floor 25% for special attacks). OHKO moves do not activate this effect

Like the old version of Lunar Ray, this effect disincentivizes the use of low-accuracy moves against Lycanroc, but it achieves this goal in a way that better fits its user; Lycanroc has no problem with the idea of enduring a Focus Blast or two, but an opponent looking to capitalize on this perceived weakness will find itself baited into a more damaging position. Furthermore, it helps Lycanroc-MN maintain its niche in the cartridge games' flavor as a retaliatory combatant by punishing the type of moves that would avoid Lycanroc's "signature move," Counter, and the effect rarely proves more damaging than a Rocky Helmet, which keeps it at a reasonable power level.

-Ah, Alolan Marowak; the one Pokemon with a worse signature item efffect than Lycanroc-MN. :p Even if Thick Club will always be the superior item, we shouldn't exclude Alolan Marowak from Lunar Ray's effects. As it's pointless to try to compete with Thick Club's offensive prowess, how about we take a different approach?

If the holder is naturally a Fire-type, it restores HP equal to one-and-one-half (1.5x) the number of Burned Pokemon on the field at the end of each action. If the holder is naturally a Ghost-type, it restores HP and Energy equal to twice (2x) the number of Pokemon afflicted by Ghost Curse at the end of each action.

Lunar Ray already buffs Alolan Marowak's Defense, so it would be relatively easy to turn Marowak into a bulky threat with a few quick effects. The suggested proposal encourages Alolan Marowak to play more defensively by giving its most common debuff, Will-O-Wisp, a pseudo-Leech Seed effect; by allowing it to mitigate the losses incurred by an otherwise-powerful damage-over-time tool; and by giving it a considerable amount of passive recovery either when an opponent is affected by both statuses or when multiple opponents are affected by either status.

Alternatively, though, this effect could also work:

If the holder has the Cursed Body Ability, its effect chance is increased to 50%, and it Disables all moves of the same type and category (physical or special) as the move that triggered the Ability.

This helps Alolan Marowak's longevity in match-ups against opponents that rely on a limited pool of super-effective moves or neutral attacks from a powerful STAB moves. It also hurts physical Water-, Ground-, Flying-, and Ghost-types' ability to avoid Alolan Marowak's strikes via their respective STAB D/E moves, but Alolan Marowak already has access to Earthquake and Dig, so this benefit is only a minor boon.

 

[Frosty]

I will move Reaper Cloth and Solar Ray to voting

Lunar Ray, I'd like some comments on the suggestions P2X7 presented above. I will provide my own when my nose isn't running and my backlog filled with unimportant matches to ref.

 

[ZhengTann]

Lunar Ray: Lunar Ray affects Umbreon, Rockruff, Lycanroc-N, Cubone, and Marowak-A. Based off Solar Ray, I'm trying to apply the following constraints:

• Only augments Abilities of the affected Pokemons and their prevos (with exception of Eevee), and raising their highest base stat.
• With Solar Ray now augmenting Keen Eye instead of Sand Rush, Lunar Ray should augment the other Ability common to both Lycanroc-N and Rockruff (Vital Spirit)
• In fact, let the Rays only augment Abilities common to both FE and NFE forms.

I ended up with some crazy and flavourful ideas below:

Synchronize is meh, but at least it's not super horrible. If we're trigger-happy on buff culture I suppose we can just let Umbreon gain near-immunity to statuses by removing the "If activated by Status/non-damaging moves" part, thereby only allowing opponents to status Umbreon if they themselves are immune to said status.

"Lightning Rod self-triggers every round action." Similar to Speed Boost, except on a per action instead of per round basis, this may allow +SpAtk Marowak-A to become a, uh, self-setup Raid special attacker. After all, I don't really recall Thick Club Marowak being used anywhere except in Cliffs of Thunder. For reference, +Atk Thick Club Marowak gains +5 neutral damage by jumping from R4 to R8 attack. It'll take this Lunar Ray +SpAtk Marowak-A 4 actions to break even on bonus damage.

Vital Spirit is difficult to buff, until I went ham and decided "Vital Spirit grants +1 Rank to Def & SpDef (and +2 BRT) as if Insomnia is present." Lycanroc-N is now the slower, bulkier variant, and hopefully it'll make better use of Counter/Reversal this way by not dying as fast. Don't forget to remove the No Guard bit because this should not coexist with the Vital Spirit bit. Credits to P2X7 for reminding me to dig flavour on Lycanroc-N's reckless fighting style.

 

[JJayyFeather]

Two parts

Marowak-A
I do think it's poor on us to have given Lunar Ray 0 effects with Marowak-A in mind, but it's almost akin to the situation of Shiny Stone. No signature item we can create is going to compare to what Thick Club gives it, which is why frankly I don't care to give it any effects here. As for the actual suggestions P2 gave, both of them are far above the average power level of a signature item which is just asinine. I'm not willing to substantially buff an item for no good reason other than "this item for it is currently lackluster" when Marowak-A already has a very usable signature item. The Cursed Body one is just outright too good, it's more movepool control than available to any Pokemon in ASB at the moment, loaded into a 50% RNG roll that doesn't require an action. The other suggestion isn't as powerful as this but I don't like encouraging stall at all, and it again seems unnecessary.

(ZT) I'd vastly prefer if it were triggered once per round or twice on sendout. Triggering each action is a really dangerous snowball on a mon with a lot of natural bulk.

Lycanroc-Midnight
Let's be real, it's not the item holding this mon back, it's the movepool. The item is honestly pretty strong. Rock-type moves, especially the Physical ones are notoriously inaccurate. And moreover, I think you are underrating or ignoring the defensive benefits of not applying it to incoming moves such as Hydro Pump, Focus Blast, Dynamic Punch, Cross Chop, Power Whip, and quite a few more, even including just high BAP neutral STABs like Thunder or Rock Wrecker. There's a lot of power in the effect that it already does have.

As for the suggested changes:

1. (P2) While I like the focus on the lore/background to Lycanroc-N, I do think that effect is bit too fucking strong. Rocky Helmet has been an item for a while that sees pretty solid use for a defensive item and it's just a flat 25% on one spectrum of moves. Providing that baseline effect to Special Attacks instead to allow Lycanroc-N to also abuse the fact that it has Counter and get its retaliatory strikes in either way is quite the effect. Not to mention it also has the aspect of punishing abusers of No Guard on both sides.

2. (ZT) 3 ranks boosts on the item is a bit much, but I think this is just some of my random conservativeness kicking here. Overall we aim for an appropriate marker right above +1 rank and +1/+2 BAP, and I think is just the right amount of power. I just think enabling bulk is :puke:. Good suggestion though.

Umbreon
I'm going to say I'm 100% against this change. Umbreon is already bulky enough and still makes it literally impossible to status an Umbreon.

 

[ZhengTann]

Replying to Jayy above - if matching Thick Club's power levels are undesirable, then Lightning Rod self-triggering every round instead can also be in the slate.

Alternate suggestion to buffing Vital Spirit - give it +Atk that comes from Insomnia instead of + both defenses from Vital Spirit. +2 Atk should be less than or equal to Solar Ray buffing Lycanroc-D's Speed from Steadfast and Accuracy from Keen Eye.

 

[Frosty]

anyone has anything to add to this before I try to make some sense out of it?

please?

 

[Frosty]

Sigh

I will just go

For umbreon
- as is
- zt suggestion
- back to the drawing board to change X

For marowak
- as is
- p2 suggestion 1
- p2 suggestion 2
- zt suggestion (1 per round)
- back to the drawing board to change X

For lycanroc
- as is
- p2 suggestion
- zt suggestion
- back to the drawing board to change X

72h before voting. ZhengTann and P2X7 have that time to adjust their proposals if they deem necessary

 

[P2X7]

Due to time constraints, this will be a brief post. Looking back, I can see that the effects I suggested were above the accepted power curve for signature items (especially the changes regarding Alolan Marowak >.>); I have thus worked out a few revisions that should make my ideas more palatable.

If the holder is naturally a Fire-type, it restores HP equal to the number of Burned Pokemon on the field at the end of each action. If the holder is naturally a Ghost-type, it restores HP and Energy equal to the number of Pokemon afflicted by Ghost Curse at the end of each action.

Cursed Body's effect chance is increased to 40%. A move Disabled by Cursed Body remains Disabled until the end of the battle.

If the holder has the Ability No Guard, all oncoming attacks damage their user for an amount equal to [100 - (Base accuracy of move used)]% of the damage inflicted upon this Pokemon (floor 15% for special attacks). OHKO moves do not activate this effect

 

[JJayyFeather]

Last topic, and oh boy its a doozie.

Signature Z-Crystals

I got bored. Note that to be used, these Z-Crystals have to be able to beat the regular Z-Crystals, which have a damage boost, and have flexibility to go into stronger Z-Moves (Z-Sky Attack, Z-Hydro Cannon, etc.), or Z-Status options (Z-Teleport, Z-SPLASH!). I disagree with the idea on two-activations being the way to go (except maybe for Eevium, since that sounds hilarious).

Designed some potential ideas, because I have no life. These options are hence based on my understanding of what each mon's general niche is... or aesthetics, when the mon is being dire.

Aloraichium Z

Aloraichium Z
Once per match, a Pokémon holding this item can use the Z-Move: Stoked SparkSurfer, by linking Thunderbolt. Moves which target "All Adjacent Targets" also summon Electric Terrain for two (2) rounds. Dodge has no cap.

Raichu-A honestly needs more love - it has almost the entirety of Pikachu's movepool available (108 moves T_T), after all. But Raichu-A is specifically a speed spammer, abusing Surge Surfer + Stoked SparkSurfer to then go into Electro Balls at 15 BAP with insane reliability.

For Alolaraichium, I've given it a couple of Taunt-Immune sources of Electric Terrain (Discharge and Surf. Thematic appropriateness!!!), then emphasised the fact that Raichu-A is about 10cm shorter than Raichu (And qualifies for Base 40 Dodge), and stupidly fast. Or if we remove the dodge cap universally we can just empower it. :shrug:.

Decidium Z

Decidium Z
Once per match, a Pokémon holding this item can use the Z-Move: Sinister Arrow Raid, by linking Spirit Shackle. Ignores the evasive effects of Sky Drop and Damaging Evasive moves. Uses the Levitate Command for 0 EN upon being sent out.

Decidueye's problem is summed up in an 8 letter word. "Dhelmise". The trapping is lovely, but Decidueye lacks a niche. Aesthetically, Decidueye is the archer - it doesn't care how far away you are, it's going to hit you. It's also a Bird, dammit, it shouldn't immediately be standing still.

Eevium Z

Eevium Z
Once per match, a Pokémon holding this item can use the Z-Move: Extreme Evoboost, by linking Last Resort. Allows the usage of Last Resort, even if nine (9) unique actions have not yet been used.

Eevium is probably the only Signature Z-Crystal which truly justifies it's usage just by existing on a silly move (Plus... Stored Power exists). So, play off the signature ability... NEXT.

Incinium Z

Incinium Z
Once per match, a Pokémon holding this item can use the Z-Move: Malicious Moonsault, by linking Darkest Lariat. The holder of this item is treated as unemcumbered. The holder is not confused by the effect of it's own attacks. The holder is immune to recoil.

Stupid wrestler is stupid. Right, so, the whole niche thing is struggling here, and 'IT'S NOT ACTUALLY FIRE/FIGHTING' is not a niche. Mainly Incineroar has lots of moves with -ve effects (Outrage, Thrash, Flare Blitz), so I've given it anti-negatives. Someone give ideas here, k? Oh, and Acrobatics, honestly because 'why not'.

Marshadium Z

Marshadium Z
Once per match, a Pokémon holding this item can use the Z-Move: Soul-Stealing 7-Star Strike, by linking Spectral Thief. The equipped Pokemon's stat boosts can go above +6. The holder does not pay the increased energy cost from Technician.

Silly legend is silly. Don't bother using Swoobat against it :P

Mewnium Z

Mewnium Z
Once per match, a Pokémon holding this item can use the Z-Move: Genesis Supernova, by linking Psychic. Places all opponents under the effect of Telekinesis.

Psychic Mon is Psychic-Typed, enjoys benefitting from wide inaccurate movepool and not giving opponents priority immunity, more news at 4.
(If Telekinesis doesn't work like this then fix it, k?)

Pikanium Z

Pikanium Z
Once per match, a Pokémon holding this item can use the Z-Move: Catastropika, by linking Volt Tackle. Increases the holder's Weight Class by five (5). Negate all recoil damage.

Pikachu needs less sig items. So GameFreak's response? Two feckin' more. Have some actual BAP for Wild Charge, Volt Tackle, and Catastropika.

Pikashunium Z

Pikashunium Z
Once per match, a Pokémon holding this item can use the Z-Move: 10,000,000 Volt Thunderbolt, by linking Thunderbolt. Increases the holder's Critical Hit level by one (1). When the holder uses an attack with STAB, the holder's ATK and SPA are each equal to the holder's combined ATK and SPA.

Might as well tie Pikachu's never-ending chain of signature items into the Costumes, which are basically mandatory for Pika - which thankfully give STAB.

Primarium Z

Primarium Z
Once per match, a Pokémon holding this item can use the Z-Move: Oceanic Operetta, by linking Sparkling Aria. Liquid Voice causes damaging sound-based moves to gain three (3) BAP, and ignore Soundproof and the Silenced status condition.

You want a Pokemon to do shenanigans with Perish Song? Oh, look, it's Primarina. Partner with an Araquanid in doubles (viva Spider Web) if you really dislike someone.

Snorlium Z

Snorlium Z
Once per match, a Pokémon holding this item can use the Z-Move: Pulverizing Pancake, by linking Giga Impact. When Snorlax attacks, increases Snorlax's final Weight Class by six (6).

24 BAP on Pulverizing... is actually one of the stronger Z-Moves, but it's hampered by only ever hitting neutrally. So, might as well play up Snorlax's big thing.... and that's being big. 15 WC is fun (Especially when Low Kick doesn't catch on), with Pulverizing Pancake at 28 BAP, Highhorse Power at 15.5 BAP...

... y'know what someone else design this, k? I am having Elec Gym flashbacks here...

Tapunium Z

Tapunium Z
Once per match, a Pokémon holding this item can use the Z-Move: Guardian of Alola, by linking Nature's Madness. Causes Electric Surge, Psychic Surge, Grassy Surge, and Misty Surge to cost no energy to activate and reduces the energy cost of Electric Terrain, Psychic Terrain, Grassy Terrain, and Misty Terrain by five (5). Extends the duration of Electric Terrain, Psychic Terrain, Grassy Terrain, and Misty Terrain induced by the holder of this item to six (6) rounds if it would otherwise have a smaller duration. Enables Electric Terrain, Psychic Terrain, Grassy Terrain, and Misty Terrain to be induced in all arenas where it might otherwise be disallowed, without any kind of restriction.

Perhaps boring, but this gives Tapus something to use whilst they inflicy 46.25 Damage to entirely unsuspecting Blissey.

About Z-Crystals:
Z-Crystals linked to a viable enough move could have a default effect along the lines of
"Boosts the Pokémon's STABs by 1. Boosts the power of the linked move by an additional [insert balanced number here, I'm thinking 2]".

This would include Aloraichum Z, Decidium Z, Incinium Z, Lycanium Z, Mewnium Z, Mimikium Z.

Now, there are Z-Crystals for which this default effect wouldn't work, or is a bit underwhelming.
Here's what I suggest for them:

Eevium Z: Boosts the Pokémon's STAB by 2. Allows the use of Last Resort after four (4) unique actions.
Kommomium Z: Boosts the Pokémon's STABs by 1. Clanging Scales no longer drops Defense upon use.
Pikanium Z: Boosts the Pokémon's STAB by 2. Removes recoil damage from Volt Tackle. (why anyone would use that over Light Ball is unknown but eh)
Primarium Z: Boosts the Pokémon's STABs by 1. Boosts the power of Sparkling Aria by an additional 1. Sparkling Aria does not hit allies in Doubles+.
Snorlium Z: Boosts the Pokémon's STAB by 1. Giga Impact no longer makes the user Sluggish. Instead, Giga Impact cannot be used twice in a row.
Tapunium Z: Boosts the Pokémon's STABs by 1. Removes the EN cost of Surge Abilities on sendout and makes them last five (5) rounds.

I left aside Lunalium Z, Marshadium Z, Pikashunium Z, Solganium Z and Ultranecrozium Z because they are currently unobtainable in ASB, but they'd probably fit into the first category.

Of course I suck at balancing stuff so that might not be what they need.

These are previous statements about Signature Z-Crystals. I'm going to use Discussion/Topic Questions to keep this organized and flowing though, because this is a semi-large topic.

Discussion Questions
1) Should the Signature Z-Crystals all follow some sort of trend?
2) What is the target power level for these items? For this question, either name a specific item or a mix between items, or just some way to describe the target power level.

 

[Frosty]

For the love of all things holy pleeeease let us not make them into sig items 2.0

Or else we will end up needing to change them every semester. And they will most definitely compete with the actual sig items instead of providing an alternative to them.

I am still in favor of a 2 activations clause. With a stab boost if necessary. Makes them closer to ingame purpose while providing a fair boost in tandem with how things roll in asb.

Of the options above Id rather go the tman route. At least there is some method to his madness.

 

[TMan87]

I am still in favor of a 2 activations clause. With a stab boost if necessary. Makes them closer to ingame purpose while providing a fair boost in tandem with how things roll in asb.

Could you precise this?

 

[Frosty]

Could you precise what needs precising?

in ASB a one-move chance doesn't have the same whoop as ingame. Ingame an offensive Z-Move will score a KO on a neutral target with some frequency (doubles damage or something along those lines) and will add around 40% the target's health as damage. in ASB you get 10 more damage, which means around 10% the target's health added as damage. On the same vein, ingame an stat boost really makes a splash and makes a sweep possible. I don't think I need to mention how shitty stat boosts are in ASB.

Sig Z-Moves provide either damage or stat boosts. So they are naturally lacking in ASB. Normal Z-Stones have those +35hp cases that make them worthwhile as a rule and they have some variety of possibilities so the boost you need for them is smaller in theory.

You can boost them to make it worthwhile either by boosting its natural effect or by adding other effects. Boosting its natural effects adds onto its ingame purpose, whereas adding other stuff adds other purposes that may not be the intended ones (and may conflict with the purposes of other items). Basically why I prefer to just double the natural effect and be done with it. The STAB bonus is just if you really really really need something else to make it seem overbloated enough to be admissible in the latest metagame.

 

[JJayyFeather]

I'm still of the camp of just let them rot imeanwut

But if we're actually going to change these, I'm strongly opposed to giving them a 2nd charge. It has very little to do with breaking the game, but rather I feel like it should maintain the "one shot, one opportunity" nature of Z-Moves.

As for other changes, yeah fuck having them be auxiliary (primary) signature items, that's also overdoing it.

The change I think that would be most fitting is if we were to just fully augment the damage aspect, and that's something I'd actually just want to see across the board. I didn't really think of this back in the last discussion about Z-Crystals because they were rather new at the time and had seen little experimentation. But now that we're over a year into Gen VII ASB, it's safe to say that the status moves severely outclass the damaging ones. At least, the healing ones do. So I'm going to propose this change, whether for just the signature items or for Z-Moves as a whole, in an effort to patch this gap without stretching too far:

Damaging Z-Moves apply the offensive rank bonus to their damage twice.

I'd rather not take from the bursty nature of damaging Z-Moves just because the game doesn't favor them. I'd rather see if there is a way to properly amplify/focus on that burst and make it viable.

 

[Frosty]

I'm still of the camp of just let them rot imeanwut

But if we're actually going to change these, I'm strongly opposed to giving them a 2nd charge. It has very little to do with breaking the game, but rather I feel like it should maintain the "one shot, one opportunity" nature of Z-Moves.

As for other changes, yeah fuck having them be auxiliary (primary) signature items, that's also overdoing it.

The change I think that would be most fitting is if we were to just fully augment the damage aspect, and that's something I'd actually just want to see across the board. I didn't really think of this back in the last discussion about Z-Crystals because they were rather new at the time and had seen little experimentation. But now that we're over a year into Gen VII ASB, it's safe to say that the status moves severely outclass the damaging ones. At least, the healing ones do. So I'm going to propose this change, whether for just the signature items or for Z-Moves as a whole, in an effort to patch this gap without stretching too far:

I'd rather not take from the bursty nature of damaging Z-Moves just because the game doesn't favor them. I'd rather see if there is a way to properly amplify/focus on that burst and make it viable.

I didn't get what you mean by "Damaging Z-Moves apply the offensive rank bonus to their damage twice" . Can you provide an example?

EDIT:

 

[JJayyFeather]

Alright this has fully stagnated. Time to get a move on.

How should we update Signature Z-Crystals?
a) Dogfish44's changes
b) TMan87's changes
c) Double the Offensive Rank Bonus on their Z-Moves
d) Add an additional use to the Z-Move
e) leave as is

I'm moving this slate forward in 48h unless it receives opposition or conversation gets rolling.

 

[Frosty]

add "e) As Is"

to reflect how little people is caring

 

[JJayyFeather]

right, forgot about that.

 

[Toon]

48hrs is a very long time apparently

Alright this has fully stagnated. Time to get a move on.

How should we update Signature Z-Crystals?
a) Dogfish44's changes
b) TMan87's changes
c) Double the Offensive Rank Bonus on their Z-Moves
d) Add an additional use to the Z-Move
e) leave as is

I'm moving this slate forward in 48h unless it receives opposition or conversation gets rolling.

Are the votes case by case bases per crystal or we just going to use all of the changes of one person’s ideas

Also another person’s input on eeveeiumz

I think I've mentioned this before here but can we make Eevee's Z Move Extreme Evoboost retain stat boosts after switching out or phazing like how Belly Drum works? Sending in Eevee with a Z-Stone is already silly, but it becomes flat-out unusable when something like Roar can completely invalidate the move.