Just Leech Seed? It also has Dry Skin. And with that speed. Any people who thought that Toxic Heal Gliscor was annoying are really going to hate this. Now, I'll admit that Parasect has really terribad stats. And typing. But if anything other than its speed, movepool and ability come up, you're doing it wrong.
-
Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Slowmons: Macho, Macho, man!
- Thread starter erisia
- Start date
- Status
Not gonna lie BK, access to Leech Seed anddouble lefties in rain do give it better utility for rain than Amoonguss. Amoonguss will find more use on weatherless or sand teams, though. Parasect also handily beats out Quagsire, one of the best answers to Cursers.
I fail to see how amoonguss doesn't beat quagsire. Also, parasect could make a fast subseeder, considering how useful spore is for one of them, but it still has a typing that is weak to rock, and therefore weak to every curser not named snorlax (who still probably kills it, anyways). It has a niche in that it has a lot of recovery, but it doesn't have the stats or typing to back it up. Think toxicroak in ou.
So Curse is the physical version of Quiver Dance?
Also, is it just me or should Macho Brace be banned?
Also, is it just me or should Macho Brace be banned?
Not at all, because as you get lower, the relative speed from one pokemon to another gets higher. Therefore a pokeomon at around 50 speed won't outrun one around 25 speed. And nothing outruns shuckle, even with macho brace.
90 / 130 / 80 / 65 / 85 / 55
Here's another answer to Curse users - Machamp. Due to it's STAB hitting almost all of the Curse users SE, Machamp is a great answer to them (also resists Rock STAB from most boosters).
105 / 140 / 95 / 55 / 65 / 45
...will get outclassed by this. This has better attack, speed, and physical bulk. Not only that, but it gets access to Hammer Arm and Mach Punch. However, it does not have access to Curse, sadly. This thing is better off as an all-out attacker, although it can still set up with Bulk Up. 45 base speed, while not much slower, is slower than Machamp, letting it outspeed some Curse users. It also has Guts and Sheer Force to further boost it's power, depending on the situation. (Is Iron Fist released?)
EDIT: Derped up a bit and forgot it only got Curse in Gen II :s
I noticed that there are very few fast Fire Pokemon available. The best I found was Camerupt who, at Base 40 speed, has access to a kinda sorta fast Eruption. Things just keep getting better for Escavalier. Or maybe Sunflora will surprise us all with its amazing Sun-boosted HP Fire. I wouldn't hold my breath, though.
Idk... I could bring back my heatran-parasect-quagsire core that I ran in bw1 lol. Quagsire handled rock types and curse users. Parasect's typing and stats are good enough for its job other than its lame speed. 4x ground resist, fighting resist, water immunity matches well with heatran and it has an electric resist and grass resist for pairing with a water type. Its bug stab and decent attack stat lets it take out things immune to leech seed and leech seed everything else. While its defenses are just high enough to usually allow the leech seed stalling to work well.
Toxicroak plays entirely differently. Usually you try to sweep with bulk up croak or threaten early KOs with SD sucker punch behind a sub. Parasect has to switch out a lot supporting its team with leech seed, spore and aromatherapy while forcing things that it walls out, so you have to control hazards.
Lol I feel like I'm the only one who laddered with Parasect and Quagsire in OU and thought they were good. This speed switch thing makes them that much better.
@above, magcargo has 30 speed, flame body and recover. It's not gonna outspeed escavalier though..
Yes, finally a tier where my alternative Ferrothorn builds can shine!
Here we have a Bulky (defensive) Curse Rest Talk build, an Offensive Curse Rest Talk build, and the classiest of all, the Swords Dance build (because why the hell would a steel plant not have swords? duh).
Here we have a Bulky (defensive) Curse Rest Talk build, an Offensive Curse Rest Talk build, and the classiest of all, the Swords Dance build (because why the hell would a steel plant not have swords? duh).
Bulky Curse (Ferrothorn) @ Leftovers
Trait: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SDef
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Power Whip
- Curse
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
Offensive Curse (Ferrothorn) @ Life Orb
Trait: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Power Whip
- Curse
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
Swords Dance (Ferrothorn) @ Macho Brace
Trait: Iron Barbs
EVs: 4 Def / 252 Atk / 252 HP
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Swords Dance
- Power Whip
- Iron Head
- Bulldoze
Trait: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SDef
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Power Whip
- Curse
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
Offensive Curse (Ferrothorn) @ Life Orb
Trait: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Power Whip
- Curse
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
Swords Dance (Ferrothorn) @ Macho Brace
Trait: Iron Barbs
EVs: 4 Def / 252 Atk / 252 HP
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Swords Dance
- Power Whip
- Iron Head
- Bulldoze
I thought TR was an old play style, lol. So when do we actually get to try this out?
A hard counter to things like Parasect and Amoonguss would be Bouffalant. With it's Sap Sipper ability it absorbs Leech Seed and Spore and with it's workable 55 Speed stat it can get stuff done in this meta. Solid 95/95/95 defenses mean it can take a good array of hits that aren't fighting and that it doesnt fear Mach Punch as much.
After one Sap Sipper boost Bouffalant reaches 525 Attack. Both Parasect and Amoonguss have no business with Bouffalant so he can fire off at will with his STAB Head Charge and great coverage in EdgeQuake, Superpower, Megahorn & Wild Charge. Substitute is an option to have a better chance of hitting the switch-in for SE damage but doesnt have great compatibility with Head Charge's recoil.
The only problem is it's weakness to fighting-types who will be running rampant in this tier and therefore a SD set is prolly not gonna do it much favours.
Interesting fact: The only mons that can Baton Pass Curse (bar Smeargle) are the Eeveelutions and Absol. Vaporeon and Umbreon probably are the best CursePassers due to their lower speed and good bulk. Sash Smeargle with Spore will be seen on some teams as well methinks.
After one Sap Sipper boost Bouffalant reaches 525 Attack. Both Parasect and Amoonguss have no business with Bouffalant so he can fire off at will with his STAB Head Charge and great coverage in EdgeQuake, Superpower, Megahorn & Wild Charge. Substitute is an option to have a better chance of hitting the switch-in for SE damage but doesnt have great compatibility with Head Charge's recoil.
The only problem is it's weakness to fighting-types who will be running rampant in this tier and therefore a SD set is prolly not gonna do it much favours.
Interesting fact: The only mons that can Baton Pass Curse (bar Smeargle) are the Eeveelutions and Absol. Vaporeon and Umbreon probably are the best CursePassers due to their lower speed and good bulk. Sash Smeargle with Spore will be seen on some teams as well methinks.
I will admit that I may have been too quick to judge it, although SR weakness and a modest bulk with a large number of weaknesses leave less in its favor. I did, however, forget just how much recovery it can gain from rain, and its access to Leech Seed (despite being a shroom) certainly makes a SubSeed set viable as Spore can give it an opportunity to set up. I really like Parasect, so if someone can make it successful in this meta then I will be genuinely delighted, but since this format has yet to even begin then I didn't want to assume too much. If anything I did the opposite. Don't dismiss Amoonguss yet though. Access to Regenerator, Clear Smog, fight resist and no rock weakness are just some things that it can play to its advantage here, along with its fine speed.
Flyers are, however, a thorn in their side, and with all the fighting types that will undoubtedly start roaming around, Flying STAB or coverage could become more useful. But since many flyers have a decent base speed, not many of them will dominate this speed tier, meaning that all of the frail ones will hardly be of any benefit on most teams. Skarmory will probably be just fine as outspeeding opponents has never been its strongest suite, and can instead phaze with Whirlwind, pummel with Brave Bird or simply spike the field as usual. Braviary is also bulky and packs more punch, but is an itty bit faster (ie slower) and is weak to rocks, so I don't know how it'd fit in this meta beforehand. The only fully evolved flyer which also sports a low speed (not named Vespiquen) is Tropius, which could actually work well as it has Harvest, Growth, Curse and good bulk, and two STABs to nail both fighters, rocks, and ground types. It intrigues me.
It does.
In Gen II.
While that Ferrothorn do need some coverage against steel types, Bulldoze's power is only somewhat better than Earthquake after a dance, but it also boosts the speed of the opponent. :V
electroball looks like it could become very useful here. its only problem is even at max power few pokemon that get it can boost it without specs, and specs just barely misses out on quite a number of OHKOs :L
Also with everything running -speed natures mixed attackers are a bit more viable.
Also with everything running -speed natures mixed attackers are a bit more viable.
Really? Because if Champion Steve's math is right, magnezone gets 150 bp on anything 40 and faster with just 4 speed ev's. which is good.
Oh my god Conkeldurr is a monster with Hammer Arm. A Flame Charge, but double the power coming from a base 140 attack mon. Maybe one should consider Flame Orb Guts Conkeldurr:
Conkeldurr @ Flame Orb
Trait: Guts
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 SDef
Adamant Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Hammer Arm
- Drain Punch
- Ice Punch
- Facade
This has gotta be one of the top tier threats :^D
Conkeldurr @ Flame Orb
Trait: Guts
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 SDef
Adamant Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Hammer Arm
- Drain Punch
- Ice Punch
- Facade
This has gotta be one of the top tier threats :^D
With all of these huge physical setup threats being present, I think it's worth focusing on some of the defensive threats that will save the metagame from being swept...
Skarmory
The vast majority of threats in this metagame appear to be physical, outside of Reuniclus, so having a "Sturdy" physical defender seems like a great asset for any team. With Base 65 Speed, Skarmory is faster than a lot of the offensive Pokémon in this metagame, meaning it will usually Roost after the opponent attacks, thus not exposing itself to Earthquakes. Ferrothorn is completely walled, as is Escavalier, with both being phased out with Whirlwind. Unfortunately Skarmory fails to hit many Pokémon hard in this metagame outside of Breloom and the frailer Grass and Fighting types, so Rocky Helmet might be a good item choice for ensuring passive damage. With so much of the metagame being blocked, Skarmory will find plenty of opportunities to Roost, mitigating the loss of Leftovers.
Cofagrigus
As stated earlier, Snorlax is going to absolutely ridiculous to deal with. While Cofagrigus can also be quite scary with a bulky Nasty Plot set, a defensive set with Will O Wisp allows you to drop Belly Drum sets out of action in 3-5 turns depending on residual damage. Cofagrigus can Burn most physical attackers before they get a chance to strike back, in a similar way to Sableye in OU, making it a pretty good offensive response to physical boosters as well, with a Nasty Plot / Shadow Ball / HP Fighting / Will O Wisp set. Likewise, it can actually use Haze to stop boosters outright, if it has a defensive EV spread.
Quagsire
With Curse and Belly Drum being ridiculously good on some Pokémon (Snorlax!), Quagsire is a stalwart response to any physical boosters outside of Ferrothorn and the odd offensive Breloom. With Recover, Toxic, and Earthquake and Scald to massacre a lot of common Curse users, Quagsire is equipped to deal with the worst of them.
Skarmory
The vast majority of threats in this metagame appear to be physical, outside of Reuniclus, so having a "Sturdy" physical defender seems like a great asset for any team. With Base 65 Speed, Skarmory is faster than a lot of the offensive Pokémon in this metagame, meaning it will usually Roost after the opponent attacks, thus not exposing itself to Earthquakes. Ferrothorn is completely walled, as is Escavalier, with both being phased out with Whirlwind. Unfortunately Skarmory fails to hit many Pokémon hard in this metagame outside of Breloom and the frailer Grass and Fighting types, so Rocky Helmet might be a good item choice for ensuring passive damage. With so much of the metagame being blocked, Skarmory will find plenty of opportunities to Roost, mitigating the loss of Leftovers.
Cofagrigus
As stated earlier, Snorlax is going to absolutely ridiculous to deal with. While Cofagrigus can also be quite scary with a bulky Nasty Plot set, a defensive set with Will O Wisp allows you to drop Belly Drum sets out of action in 3-5 turns depending on residual damage. Cofagrigus can Burn most physical attackers before they get a chance to strike back, in a similar way to Sableye in OU, making it a pretty good offensive response to physical boosters as well, with a Nasty Plot / Shadow Ball / HP Fighting / Will O Wisp set. Likewise, it can actually use Haze to stop boosters outright, if it has a defensive EV spread.
Quagsire
With Curse and Belly Drum being ridiculously good on some Pokémon (Snorlax!), Quagsire is a stalwart response to any physical boosters outside of Ferrothorn and the odd offensive Breloom. With Recover, Toxic, and Earthquake and Scald to massacre a lot of common Curse users, Quagsire is equipped to deal with the worst of them.
Slowmons is now playable, so go nuts!
On an unrelated note, I've had a little bit of fun with my new avatar: Slowbro.
Slowbro (M) @ Macho Brace
Trait: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Brave Nature (+Atk, -Spd)
- Belly Drum
- Aqua Tail
- Drain Punch
- Zen Headbutt / Ice Punch
Obviously not what you'd expect from him, but anything in this tier with Belly Drum and a low Speed stat can threaten a sweep if played correctly. With a Macho Brace, little will outspeed Slowbro other than Macho Brace Ferrothorn and Escavalier, which usually run other items. Even with Slowbro's modest Base 75 Attack stat, it exceeds 1000 Atk after a boost and actually manages to get the OHKO on Ferrothorn with Drain Punch after a few spikes. Meanwhile, Aqua Tail is very powerful and plows through most things that don't resist it (if it hits! Slowbro doesn't get Waterfall!) Zen Headbutt offers auxillary STAB and gives you a way to hit Conkeldurr hard, while Ice Punch gives Slowbro superior coverage. Then again, there aren't actually a lot of Ice-weak Pokémon in this metagame, so it might not be worth running.
The advantage of Slowbro over other Belly Drum users is that it can actually switch out, heal off the damage with Regenerator, and resume an interrupted sweep later in the match. It also allows Slowbro to come in repeatedly on hazards and just throw out attacks, which is important as HAZARDS ARE EVERYWHERE in a metagame where Ferrothorn happens to be the best thing ever.
On an unrelated note, I've had a little bit of fun with my new avatar: Slowbro.
Slowbro (M) @ Macho Brace
Trait: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Brave Nature (+Atk, -Spd)
- Belly Drum
- Aqua Tail
- Drain Punch
- Zen Headbutt / Ice Punch
Obviously not what you'd expect from him, but anything in this tier with Belly Drum and a low Speed stat can threaten a sweep if played correctly. With a Macho Brace, little will outspeed Slowbro other than Macho Brace Ferrothorn and Escavalier, which usually run other items. Even with Slowbro's modest Base 75 Attack stat, it exceeds 1000 Atk after a boost and actually manages to get the OHKO on Ferrothorn with Drain Punch after a few spikes. Meanwhile, Aqua Tail is very powerful and plows through most things that don't resist it (if it hits! Slowbro doesn't get Waterfall!) Zen Headbutt offers auxillary STAB and gives you a way to hit Conkeldurr hard, while Ice Punch gives Slowbro superior coverage. Then again, there aren't actually a lot of Ice-weak Pokémon in this metagame, so it might not be worth running.
The advantage of Slowbro over other Belly Drum users is that it can actually switch out, heal off the damage with Regenerator, and resume an interrupted sweep later in the match. It also allows Slowbro to come in repeatedly on hazards and just throw out attacks, which is important as HAZARDS ARE EVERYWHERE in a metagame where Ferrothorn happens to be the best thing ever.
No because all Pokemon have to be at level 100, so the level 1 Aron gimmick is banned.
Well, Ferrothorn and Escavalier are as amazingly dominant as expected. Fire moves might be worthwhile to have in this. And speaking of Fire-weak mons, Scizor seems to be still as effective as in OU. Plays almost completely the same, too. It's comforting to know that when we're all long dead and the world has been taken over by sentient lemur-people, that those lemur-people will be using Scizor in their Pokemon equivalent.
I think I broke the random number generator. In other news, Ferrothorn's (specially defensive) Bulky Curse set is really really good. He only hates Freeze (lol) and crits. http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/joimslab-slowmons-4838
Sableye and Foongus have been putting in a lot of work for me. Sableye has Prankster with Trick which gives away a Choice Scarf to mess up slow Pokémon. Since nobody uses Choice items, Choice Scarf is the perfect thing to Trick to them, as it locks them in (which ruins many Pokémon) and slows them down (in the good way). Foongus, on the other hand, hits 16 Speed with a Macho Brace, making it the fastest sleeper in the metagame by far with a perfectly reliable sleep inducer in Spore. Furthermore, Clear Smog works as a useful (and fast!) check to all the setup sweepers in the metagame, while Foul Play deals tons of damage to the numerous physical attackers in the tier.
Sableye and Foongus have been putting in a lot of work for me. Sableye has Prankster with Trick which gives away a Choice Scarf to mess up slow Pokémon. Since nobody uses Choice items, Choice Scarf is the perfect thing to Trick to them, as it locks them in (which ruins many Pokémon) and slows them down (in the good way). Foongus, on the other hand, hits 16 Speed with a Macho Brace, making it the fastest sleeper in the metagame by far with a perfectly reliable sleep inducer in Spore. Furthermore, Clear Smog works as a useful (and fast!) check to all the setup sweepers in the metagame, while Foul Play deals tons of damage to the numerous physical attackers in the tier.
I know it's a bit soon, but ferro is obviously broken. It is capable of setting up hazards more easily than deo-s, or sweeping with curse. It is one of the fastest pokemon usable, and for something that bulky, that's not acceptable. I think that banning ferrothorn should be considered.
By that logic, we should also ban Skarmory, which is even better at setting up hazards, doesn't have a crippling double weakness, walls the entire physical portion of the tier, and can phaze out anything setting up on it; furthermore, Skarmory has an actually good form of recovery in Roost, while Ferro has to rely on Leftovers and Rest. Ferrothorn may be ubiquitous, but it is not broken; there are a number of other Pokémon which are seen on just as many teams as Ferrothorn, too. For example, Escavalier's Megahorn, if it crits, will kill Ferrothorn regardless of Curse-setup. Offensive Reuniclus' Focus Blast, after just ONE Calm Mind, is guaranteed to OHKO Ferrothorn, even with 252/252+ investment. (This does not apply to defensive Reuniclus, who, holding Leftovers, needs 48 SpA EVs for 3 Calm Minds to allow Focus Blast to OHKO (although Life Orb defensive Reuniclus can guarantee the OHKO with 0 EVs in SpA with just 2 Calm Minds).)
My point is, Ferrothorn is just one of a large number of Pokémon in the tier who can serve multiple purposes and wall some things, but even those Pokémon have weaknesses. Reuniclus is extremely common in Slowmons, and it is also perhaps the easiest way to kill Ferrothorn. Alternatively, Heatran's Fire Blast can OHKO 252/252+ Ferrothorn with no investment, while Heatran has dual resists to both of Ferrothorn's STABs (watch out for CB Ferro's Bulldoze, though). Torkoal can speed-tie (or outspeed, with Macho Brace) with Ferrothorn and resist both of its STABs, then OHKO with at least 160 EVs and a neutral nature (or 72 and a positive nature) with Fire Blast. Camerupt fares even better, OHKOing 252/252+ Ferrothorn with Fire Blast without any investment at all (and a neutral nature, of course), while outspeed Ferrothorn with Macho Brace. I've seen this strategy work to great effect, and even lost my Ferrothorn to it at least twice. Literally any Phazer in the game can throw Ferrothorn out, and most can do it without taking any substantial damage from it. It really isn't that hard to beat Ferrothorn, so I disapprove of any action being taken against it.
Ferrothorn is one of the best mons in the tier, so your concern is valid. However, its offensive presence isn't going to contribute to the ban mindset considering power whip and iron head get hard-walled by so much stuff it's not even funny. The tier is completely rife with hazards, but again, this isn't just Ferrothorn's fault; not only is Skarmory equally good, but a whole mess of Slowmons get Stealth Rock, and there's like 4-5 viable Ghosts that do a ridiculously good job at blocking the (hilariously offense-poor) spinners. While Ferrothorn is threatening, that 4x fire weakness is easily exploitable, especially with Drizzle being uncommon, and most Pokémon in the tier carry either Fire or Fighting coverage.
Ferrothorn may be good, but I really don't think it's broken. Heck, I don't even think Reuniclus is broken, since Escavalier, Spiritomb and Sableye are everywhere, and it still has serious 4MSS despite not needing Trick Room any more.
- Status