Metagame SM Doubles OU

I actually would strongly support a Goth suspect in SM DOU. I've changed my view on that, as I used to think Goth was basically fine. Ryan and Veecy are right that Goth isn't a problem on the ladder. She's just not used much there. Goth invites guessing games and doesn't get the very consistent wins needed to dominate on ladder. However, in the hands of a skilled player, Goth can be busted and is a decisive factor in so many high level matches in a way that other Pokemon really aren't. Also, as I've documented in my VR noms these past two years, Goth usage in SM tours has been way up.

Goth shuts down many otherwise solid teams and play styles (particularly ones that don't bring sufficient pivots). Goth can run Helping Hand, Trick Room, Heal Pulse, Taunt, Skill Swap and even Ally Switch (among other things) brilliantly, in addition to Protect (and usually Psychic), and there's often significant guesswork in figuring out which variation you're facing. Meanwhile, you're trapped (especially if you had a bad guess re: your opponent's leads) and if you can't deal with Goth successfully early on, including figuring out how to knock off or not proc her berry, you often just lose.

Anyway, I believe SM DOU is destined to be the most popular Old Gens doubles format (ladder usage for SM DOU has been on track to overtake SS DOU and may have already done so), but there seems to be an unwillingness in the doubles community to spend any time on further developing it, while there were multiple suspects for XY in the not too distant past. I get that there are tours going on and lots of things to deal with in the new gen, but that's almost always going to be the case. Only people who wanted to and had time for it would need to take part in a suspect, but SM deserves to have one, and we can then figure out once and for all whether Goth should get kicked to the... er promoted to DUbers... as she has been in SS and SV.

(Edit: I appreciate Actuarily including actual stats from DPL. There's another dubious Goth loss to add from GenOne's recent match I guess. I'll also include a link to the most recent SM Cup stats, which shows Goth as the 8th most used Pokemon, but with much higher usage towards the later rounds (which of course weeds out most of the non-prestigious players). https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...teams-replays-and-usage.3703177/#post-9242846. In the semis and finals Goth saw 37.5% usage with a 66.66% win rate (so 2 out of 3). Overall, the cup is just a much bigger sample size than DPL, having many more players at the start with Bo3 instead of Bo1. Yes, maybe we're only talking ~20% of high level teams running Goth, but if she's used on either side she kind of dominates the match (either she succeeds in her grim mission or she doesn't). FWIW, I would also say she's not very fun to play against or watch in action.)
 
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Personally, I don't think Goth/shadow tag is banworthy at all in SM. Without Fake Out to neuter opponents for a turn, players using Goth are often playing 2v1. There's also a TON of pivot mons in SM, so it's not too hard to get out of a trap.

Basically the teams that you see Goth run on are either weather (typically rain or sun) or Kommo-o, where the goal is to trap and eliminate your opponents' check to these powerful spread attackers, and then try to sweep from there. Playing against this, it's not too hard to identify these strategies and not let your sun/rain/kommo-o check get trapped, but I will admit this is where Goth shines.

Here's every replay from last DPL featuring Goth (used 5 times, so a 15% usage, which would be VERY low for a broken pokemon):

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7doublesou-1528665821
- Here it's Goth vs Goth, and neither accomplishes much. One dies immediately as it tries to get the trap on, the other is able to click helping hand and set TR and set off a few heal pulses, but ultimately its still deadweight as it plays 2v1. (Even when it's on the field when kyu-b takes out kommo-o isn't like it "trapped" it, the opponent voluntarily went into Kommo-o thinking they would outspeed the kyu-b.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7doublesou-1539321812
- In this game, Goth was set up fodder since it doesn't have any offensive presence, leading to a Xurkitree sweep.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7doublesou-1544507979
- Here Goth actually accomplishes what it's trying to do, trapping a Fini in vs a Ferrothorn for a rain team. Ferrothorn sucessfully removes the Fini, however with only one rain sweeper, the rain team isn't able to actually break through, and ends up losing. Goth mostly sat on the field and clicked heal pulse to heal off the damage being dealt every turn. This is probably the best example of Goth accomplishing its goal, and yet since it took up a slot that could have been another offensive mon, the team ultimately doesn't have the power to break through a team with more than just one rain check.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7doublesou-1554653628
- Here Goth just comes in late and clicks helping hand, it wasn't really able to trap much of anything, and as such it's playing 2v1.

Overall it doesn't dominate these games at all the way you would expect a broken element to. We can keep this discussion going though and evaluate how others feel and see if a suspect is warranted.
 
variationonatheme is right to (gently) point out that all of my experience comes from the ladder, and I realize that ladder and tourney are two pretty different beasts. (By the way, how does one find out about / join tourneys for this meta?) Anyway, it seems this topic is actually far more divisive than I had initially anticipated, which leads me to the following question: how will we determine if a suspect test is in order, and, if it is, how would it be executed?
 
Veecy, your post is so cute! It's taken me a while to figure things out myself, so let me do my best to quickly give you the lowdown.

There's not going to be a Goth suspect test for now. You can look at the "likes" that Actuarily's post above received vs my own. I just feel kinda bad, because GenOne's original suspect suggestion post got some likes, so maybe me supporting it was the kiss of death :worrywhirl: (I'm an outsider, like you and Ryan, because, as a group, the tour bros don't view ladder achievements to be very meaningful). Anyway, it's fine because if a majority of tour bros don't even favor a suspect (and they clearly don't), the result of any such suspect would be a foregone conclusion. Also, Goth teams have had some bad luck in DPL thus far this year and last, and that matters a lot to these folks (more than the much larger sample size of the open tour, SM Cup). Maybe in another year or two it will be a different situation. Most tour bros have a bit of a herd mentality (which isn't necessarily a bad thing), so if a few high-profile bros come out in support of a suspect/ban it could happen.

Re: tours for this meta, the only open one now is Doubles Classic SM Cup. It's just once a year. Signups should be around early June May. They are not advertised well and don't usually show up on the Doubles Smogon page, which a lot of us follow (and, yes, I've complained about that in the past), so you have to really keep your eyes peeled and know where and when to search for them on the tours pages. You should definitely give that a try. DPL (Doubles Players Premier (lolz) League) is going on now and is the only other annual opportunity within the official doubles community to compete in SM DOU, but it has very limited space. Usually, only experienced tour bros get picked, and even some tour bros with good past records are dissed (see, e.g., https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...urbros-crunchman-allowed.3697403/post-9142845, with the eventual winner of last year's SM Cup only getting an honorable mention snub from DPL :facepalm:). I doubt I could have even been drafted last year. This year they have an expanded format (they had wanted to do that last year, but shut it down at the last minute because they felt it wouldn't be exclusive enough, even though most people who signed up weren't even picked as subs), so it's not as bad as usual. Most people who sign up still aren't picked though. DPL seems to be going just fine, so hopefully they can keep the expanded format (and maybe even add another tier or two for next year). However, there are many more spots available for current gen than old gens, so it's easier to get in with that. There's also an SMPL (SM Players Premier League) with signups going on now (https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/smpl-ii-players-signups-ca-prize.3718183/), but since only 6 doubles players would get picked, it will be even more exclusive.

Some people are kindly trying to set up some more lowkey open old gen tours this year. Let's support that and hope those efforts can be successful!
 
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Veecy said:
variationonatheme is right to (gently) point out that all of my experience comes from the ladder, and I realize that ladder and tourney are two pretty different beasts. (By the way, how does one find out about / join tourneys for this meta?) Anyway, it seems this topic is actually far more divisive than I had initially anticipated, which leads me to the following question: how will we determine if a suspect test is in order, and, if it is, how would it be executed?
Click to expand...
So right now, there is signups for the SM Premier League featuring SM DOU (but as Varationtheme pointed out, it may be difficult to get drafted.)

In the coming months, there will be the Doubles Classic, featuring a cup (a single elim tour) of each of the official oldgens: BW, XY, SM, and SS. So signups for SM cup are scheduled to go up the 7th of May.
 
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I think tiering action should be considered on Metagrossite. Metagross is incredibly centralizing in building, has stupid good coverage that can lose you the game if you guess wrong, and mirrors can often come down to speed ties as well. Its stat spread is insane and the speed tier heavily restricts teambuilding. I think the tier would be much better off without it, it feels significantly more restrictive than something like Gothitelle.
 
Re: Mega Gross, it's definitely not a big issue on the ladder. It's only the 7th most used mon, with usage well below most others in T1. It was only 6th in the most recent SM cup, after Kartana. It's definitely a good mon, but I don't feel it's centralizing and it doesn't change the nature/pace of a battle the way the presence of Goth does. It has some good moves, sure, but not a huge number that it's likely to carry. You have to figure it's packing Iron Head (or another Steel move) and very likely Ice Punch and/or Stomping Tantrum. It could also have STAB Zen Headbutt, especially if the team has Lele, or maybe Thunder Punch if there's a Koko around to boost it. Other stuff tends to be pretty niche. It lacks good spread moves (Rockslide and EQ don't get a STAB or Tough Claws boost and tend to be pretty meh), recovery, a pivot move or speed control. It has a bad MU against the ever present Incin (especially after it has Mega evolved and can get intimidated) and is typically nothing to write home about against the other current T1 mons (Lando, Fini and Koko) or Kart. It's not great against opposing weather (except maybe Hail), especially when it can be outsped. Also, there really aren't that many good Mega Evolutions available in Gen 7 DOU, with no other Megas currently ranked in T1 or T2, so if we got rid of Gross I fear we'd actually have more centralization in terms of viable Mega mons (and no a hypothetical ban isn't going to suddenly empower a lot of other Megas--Gross is currently getting less than 20% usage even on good teams, so it's not sucking up all the Mega usage by itself--it will just make it less fun to pick through the 10 or so other viable, non-banned Megas and make Kart more dominant, though Scizor would likely see a bit more use too).

I mean, me posting this may make it more likely that it gets a suspect :boi:, but that would actually be fine. I'd be happy to have one to keep the tier active, but I really haven't heard people complain about Gross, not like Goth (never heard "Bang Ross" b4, though it's kinda catchy).
 
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variationonatheme said:
Also, there really aren't that many good Mega Evolutions available in Gen 7 DOU, with no other Megas currently ranked in T1 or T2, so if we got rid of Gross I fear we'd actually have more centralization in terms of viable Mega mons.
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Perhaps there are no other megas in the higher viability tiers because Meta outclasses them significantly and imposes an opportunity cost on them, and instead a Meta-less meta wouldn't being so centralised in terms of viable megas as it already is
 
Charlotte said:
Perhaps there are no other megas in the higher viability tiers because Meta outclasses them significantly and imposes an opportunity cost on them, and instead a Meta-less meta wouldn't being so centralised in terms of viable megas as it already is
Click to expand...

Hasn't the VR not been updated for a long time? Personally, I have and I've seen others use many different megas to great effect, including Mence, Scizor, Swampert, Camerupt, and a few others.
 
variationonatheme said:
FWIW, I would also say she's not very fun to play against or watch in action.)
Click to expand...
On that same 100% subjective subject, I'll try to remember to save a replay next time I run into a Chinese Perish Trap team on ladder. Personally I find the very methodical and calculated style of gameplay to be really cool to watch, though occasionally frustrating to play against.
 
DPL regular season is over for Church. I had fun, even if Church didn't do so well; it was nice revisiting this meta and having some "UR mons go" fun again, even if it didn't always work out. For my contribution to the body of SM knowledge, here's the only new team I actually built all season:
:tapu-fini::raikou::incineroar::landorus-therian::metagross-mega::kyurem-black:

The main idea behind the team was the Raikou set. I did a brief self-scout and decided that since I tend to run bulky balance teams with a lot of defensive switching, most opponents would try some sort of Gothitelle offense into me—specifically, I thought that a Mega Metagross + Volcanion core looked quite strong into my teams, especially when aided by trapping support. As it turned out, two of my three opponents did favor Gothitelle offense, though they brought specifically Gothitelle Rain, which I hadn't accounted for, since I thought the overwhelming presence of Shedinja in my teambuilder would dissuade them. I was a little miffed that two of my opponents expected me to fold to the exact same 6, but it is true that I don't have a good track record against Rain, I guess, so fair enough.

Anyway, I thought this Raikou set would be a pretty reasonable answer into Gothitelle + Metagross + Volcanion. It was actually inspired by a brief foray into DPP, where I saw Reflect Weavile being talked about; despite SM being a little more special offense-oriented than DPP, I still liked Reflect Raikou for its ability to outrun Kartana and Metagross and hamper their damage output noticeably. By the same token, Thunder Wave was a nice way to take advantage of Raikou's speed tier to land a non-volatile cripple against Metagross and Kartana, though I think if Raikou had access to Electroweb I might have used that instead, to avoid running into trouble with my own Misty Terrain. Volt Switch is mostly for extra safety against trapping, but switching moves are always nice.

As Noelle noted in her team dump, a few people on my team suggested bulky Tapu Koko over Raikou. There were a few reasons I stuck to Raikou:
  • First, and foremost, I like it better. It just looks cool.
  • Inner Focus makes leads against Incineroar significantly easier to play.
  • Raikou is noticeably bulkier than Tapu Koko—this set lives a Kyurem-B Z-Freeze Shock after Reflect, or a +0 Modest LO Kingdra Hydro Pump in Rain.
  • I didn't want to set up Electric Terrain for opposing Kyurem-B into my Tapu Fini.
The rest of the team is pretty standard so I won't get too deep into it. Metagross is Thunder Punch instead of Ice Punch because I was somewhat concerned about my matchup into Gothitelle + Charizard, and Landorus-T is U-turn instead of Knock Off for, you guessed it, extra safety against trapping. Tapu Fini was originally a Golisopod, but I decided that I needed a better option into Rain attackers (specifically Kingdra, which neither of my Rain-bringing opponents actually brought. Go figure).

Finally, the nicknames encode a puzzle; do give it a try if you're so inclined. You'll need the order provided in my win post (which is the same ordering as pokepastes in column mode).
 
Joy-of-SMDOU2.png
genone.png


:serperior::serperior::serperior::serperior::serperior::serperior::serperior: :serperior: :serperior::serperior: :serperior:​

It has been an absolute honor to play for the Santalune Storms in this year's DPL and we had a really strong run, even if we narrowly missed our chance to win the whole tour. If I'm being real, I had no idea the Storms were going to slot me into SM DOU as I was a 4.5k pick who didn't even sign up for the tier LOL, but I had a blast and I'm super happy to have gone 4-4 versus such a stacked roster of opponents. Overall I feel like every game was super close and challenging; my wins were one blunder away from a loss, and my losses were one or two missteps away from a win it felt like.

I have the entire Santalune Storms roster to thank for all the support I had during DPL 9, but I'd especially like to thank YoBuddy, Actuarily and SingleThunder for helping me re-learn the tier, providing consistent test games, and giving me team ideas when I didn't know what to bring. Also huge thanks to fespy and qsns for drafting me and believing in me, as well as vetoing some of my more sus early week ideas like Mega Aggron LMAO. Y'all really know how to draft and manage a team! And finally thanks to Yoda2798, Nido-Rus, eragon11145 and Yellow Paint for the extra support for my final games.

Below is a recap of my DPL 9 run, the teams I used, and the lessons I learned from these games. I'm far from the best SM player in the community but I hope at the very least this is an interesting read and helpful for anyone new to SM who's trying to learn the tier!


I hadn't played SM for years and neither had GMA according to the scout I ran on them, so I just wanted to build a solid team and outplay them. I built this team around Choice Band Genesect, inspired by its success in SS DOU. It's an adaptation of the SMB Mega Scizor sample that replaces Scizor for Choice Band Genesect and Kommo-o for Mega Salamence to apply immediate pressure instead of relying on setup wincons. Although I lost to GMA because I didn't know about their Tapu Fini's Choice Scarf, I was happy with how the team performed. After the match, I replaced Protect with Helping Hand on Gothitelle, which works perfectly with the team's strategy of applying immediate pressure and getting KOs with Genesect's Extreme Speeds.

:tyranitar-mega::ferrothorn::tapu-fini::mew::incineroar::zeraora:
Week 2 vs MajorBowman (W)
:serperior: Hazard Stack in Sun (and Moon):tauros:
Replay | Original team | Revised team​

This was another team inspired by SS DOU where hazard stacking is very effective. Mega Tyranitar sets up sand, Stealth Rocks, and beats Fire-types, while Ferrothorn sets Spikes and provides insurance against rain. The rest of the team is just there to balance everything out and apply offensive pressure while the opponent is taking constant passive damage from sand and hazards. MajorBowman brought a sun team, which I was prepared for. I didn't end up getting to showcase the team's hazard stacking potential since sun teams carry Defog users, but Mega Tyranitar was helpful in the matchup and I won in a very close game. I originally had Incinerate on Mew to remove FIWAM berries, but I've since replaced it with Flamethrower as a stronger coverage move.

:necrozma::darkrai::incineroar::diancie::tapu-fini: (:abomasnow-mega:➔:venusaur-mega:)
Week 3 vs Nails (L)
:serperior: Dark Side of the Moon:spinda:
Replay | Original team | Revised team​

Nails had used Mega Metagross + Volcarona squads in his previous games, so I chose Darkrai to counter Metagross and Diancie to deal with Volcarona. I was also still riding the hazard stack wave a bit and wanted to use a Stealth Rock setter (Necrozma) in tandem with Mega Abomasnow for passive hail damage. However, Tapu Koko was a problem for this team, and Nails brought a super bulky Mega Venusaur team that I couldn't break through. Before the game, I considered switching to Mega Venusaur which would have been a better option against Tapu Koko and a good defensive backbone for the team while still countering rain. On the plus side, this teams colour coordination game is strong AF and there are numerous homages to Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon album!

:swampert-mega::pelipper::gothitelle::tapu-koko::ludicolo::kyurem-black:
Week 4 vs Level 51 (L)
:serperior: Please Don't Shedinja Me:nosepass:
Replay | Team​

This was Level 51's first DPL 9 SM game and most of their scouted replays were of Shedinja Chansey teams lol, so I just wanted to bring a solid team and outplay them. I used a standard Gothitelle rain team, but changed Swampert and Ludicolo's natures to Jolly and Timid respectively to be better into Choice Scarf Genesect. Ironically, it was Tapu Koko's Modest nature that cost me this game versus Level 51's Timid Raikou with nice access to Snarl.

:blissey::kommo-o::genesect::tapu-koko::metagross-mega::incineroar:
Week 5 vs Ann (W)
:serperior: The Blissey Incident:landorus-therian:
Replay | Team​

Probably my favorite game of my entire DPL 9 run. YoBuddy had used this team against me in previous tests, and I loved it. The idea is to use Simple Beam Genesect on Blissey or Kommo-o and then snowball to a win with setup wincons. When he gave me the team paste in Week 5, I knew right away I wanted to use it. My matchup against Ann was favorable, and I was able to pilot the team exactly as intended.

:torkoal:
Week 6 vs nobody
:serperior:Life Outside of Mons is 100x Better:iron-bundle:
:torkoal:zzz​

The Santalune Storms were in a pretty good spot heading into Week 6, so I took the week off to give others a chance to play. YoBuddy stepped into our SM slot and faced SMB.

:politoed::kingdra::gardevoir-mega::incineroar::kartana::amoonguss:
Week 7 vs Tman (W)
:serperior: I LOVE PLAYOFFS:tinkaton:
Replay | Team​

When I scouted Tman's replays, I noticed that he favored Azumarill, sun teams, and fullroom. To counter this, I decided to use the Ezrael Rain sample, which is strong against all three and is generally a solid team. Tman ended up bringing a Mega Metagross sand team I was not familiar with, but I was able to win in a very closely contested match. This win secured the Santalune Storm's placement into semifinals, possibly with a plot armour buff from my chosen nicknames :)

:metagross-mega::volcarona::tapu-fini::landorus-therian::zeraora::kartana:
Semifinals vs SMB (L)
:serperior: My Own Worst Enemy:iron-bundle:
Replay | Team​

Heading into semifinals I closely studied all of SMB's favorite teams, but he's good at using various team styles. I decided to build a team around Volcarona since it had performed well in other DPL 9 games, and the team performed really well for me in test games. However, SMB brazenly used my own Perish Song rain team that I had topped the DOU ladder with back in 2019. It was a scary matchup, and SMB made enough changes to the team that I didn't fully know what to expect. I might have had a chance to win on Turn 9 if my Volcarona clicked Bug Buzz into SMB's Gothitelle before Perish Song activated, but I overthought the turn and missed the opportunity as I was expecting Gothitelle to Skill Swap Shadow Tag onto its partner.

:metagross-mega::zapdos::zygarde::kartana::tapu-fini::incineroar:
Finals vs Grandmas Cookin (W)
:serperior: MasterChef Canada:marshadow:
Replay | Team​

What a poetic ending to my DPL 9 run; I was once again up against GMA, my Week 1 opponent who handed me my first loss as I was still getting used to a tier I had forgotten. I went with the most stalwart team I could think of: a dual-Tailwind Mega Metagross balance team. An earlier version had Zapdos running Whirlwind and Wiki Berry instead of the Roost and Misty Seed I ended up opting for. GMA on the other hand was cooking AF, opting to bring a Nidoking and Mega Latias team against me. I was nervous about the matchup but I was able to outplay and win the game, albeit with some luck; on Turn 8, GMA's Zeraora missed its Fake Out on my Mega Metagross which helped me gain a lot of momentum.

:heatran::charizard-mega-y::blacephalon::victini::incineroar::ninetales:
Bonus Game vs Grandmas Cookin (W)
:serperior: Kitchen Nightmares:marshadow:
Replay | Team​

Let's be real, this is what y'all really wanted to see out of GenOne in a SM DOU slot, right?? After I beat GMA in finals he wanted to make it a bo3 for fun. I brought monofire g2 and he brought Mega Mawile rain so yeah, self explanatory:torkoal:
 
variationonatheme said:
The Gen 7 DOU ladder has been back up for over a month now, and we're going on 6 months since the last update to Gen 7/SM DOU viability rankings took place. I'm just hoping to get a conversation going re: keeping that current. So here are some ideas:

DROPS

Mega Metagross Tier 1 → Tier 2 Mega Metagross is good, but isn't what he used to be. He doesn't fit on many teams (the definition of tier 1). He hates water and fire and trick room, with its dark and ghost types, and his speed tier isn't really good for tailwind. The ever-present Incin eats him for lunch.

Genesect Tier 2 → Tier 3 Scarfed version is pretty predictable. Lacks the splashability of other mon in Tier 2.

Mega Scizor Tier 3 → Tier 4 Not used as much as before and not that easy to fit onto teams really--requires set-up to be effective and there's lots of hidden power fires searching for a Kartana or Genesect that would be happy to toast a Mega Scizor too.

Volcarona Tier 3 → Tier 4 It needs to set up to be effective, which makes it tricky to use. Currently, mostly seen on cheesy "dancer" teams and others trying to use pysch-up.

Landorus Tier 5 → UR Thoroughly outclassed by his other form. Almost never seen.


RAISES

Mega Charizard Tier 2 → Tier 1 The best Mega right now. Brings his own weather, has a boosted spread move in heat wave, has other good attack options and is one of a handful of viable tailwind setters.

Kommo-o Tier 3 → Tier 2 Almost always a threat to sweep and a wincon that needs to be dealt with--a major reason many teams carry Tapu Fini.

Mega Salamence Tier 3 → Tier 2 A great Mega that brings intimidate in his base form and a super powerful/versatile offense with Aerilate after mega evolution, in addition to being one of the fastest tailwind setters.

Mega Venusaur Tier 4 → Tier 3 An incredible defensive pokemon with thick fat. It can stall with leech seed or surprise with sleep powder. It terrorizes fairies with poison. One of the most reliable grass types. Frequently used on top teams.

Ludicolo Tier 4' → Tier 3/4 Ludicolo is at least as good as Kingdra in most circumstances. Grass coverage is critical for water teams and fake out adds versatility.

Stakataka/Bronzong Tier 5' → Tier 4/3 These are prime trick room setters and abusers. One sees them at least as much as Gothitelle or Porygon 2 these days.

Whimsicott UR → Tier 5/5' Whimsicott's got an incredible versatility of useful moves with priority, including tailwind, encore, taunt, fake tears and nature power (effectively providing a powerful priority move). Beat up can also be very viable as part of a team strategy that doesn't solely rely on it.

Anyway, those are some ideas. Let me know what you guys think of these and/or if you guys have others.
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MajorBowman said:

viability_rankingsw.png


Art by AmirAlexander​

>>Tier 1<<

727.png
Incineroar
645-s.png
Landorus-T
376-m.png
Mega Metagross
788.png
Tapu Fini
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Tapu Koko

>>Tier 2<<

719.png
Diancie
798.png
Kartana
784.png
Kommo-o
646-b.png
Kyurem-B

>>Tier 3<<

Aegislash
591.png
Amoonguss
006-my.png
Mega Charizard-Y
282-m.png
Mega Gardevoir
649.png
Genesect
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Gothitelle
230.png
Kingdra
151.png
Mew
186.png
Politoed
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Porygon2
373-m.png
Mega Salamence
212-m.png
Mega Scizor
786.png
Tapu Lele
721.png
Volcanion
637.png
Volcarona
145.png
Zapdos
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Zeraora
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Zygarde

>>Tier 4 & 4'<<
Tier 4Tier 4'
Pokemon that have broad applications on a variety of teams but are simply less effective than the Pokemon in higher tiers.Pokemon that, while good, only fit on a specific team style or require support but are still stronger than Pokemon in tiers below.
752.png
Araquanid
323-m.png
Mega Camerupt
113.png
Chansey
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Lurantis
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Gastrodon
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Pelipper
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Mega Latias
260-m.png
Mega Swampert
310-m.png
Mega Manectric
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Nihilego
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Scrafty
245.png
Suicune
248-m.png
Mega Tyranitar
003-m.png
Mega Venusaur
787.png
Tapu Bulu

>>Tier 5 & 5'<<
Tier 5Tier 5'
Pokemon that can do their job on quite a few teams but often struggle to find matchups and situations where they thrive.Pokemon that serve a specific role and that can only perform effectively on certain teams, often with heavy support required.
797.png
Celesteela
437.png
Bronzong
488.png
Cresselia
386a.png
Deoxys-A
719-m.png
Mega Diancie
530.png
Excadrill
645.png
Landorus
272.png
Ludicolo
350.png
Milotic
795.png
Pheromosa
804.png
Naganadel
777.png
Togedemaru
800.png
Necrozma
763.png
Tsareena
248.png
Tyranitar
494.png
Victini
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Where celesteela? I know that celesteela gets killed by litterally fire or electric type move but it’s insanely tanky and can set up leech seed toxic and substitute
 
As Classic is now concluded, and to give this thread an update, a new SM Council has been formed consisting of myself, GenOne, SMB, Toxigen, and zoe. Starting at the end of next weekend we will vote on the tier of every Pokemon in the VR, so please make noms before then if there's a move you'd like to see! Note that we will be removing the distinction between 4/4' and 5/5' moving forwards.

Updating the sample teams will also be discussed this week, so if you have any good teams be sure to post them!
 
Where can I find the usage statistics for the SM Cup of this Doubles Classic? I want to see what usage stats look like before making any VR nominations, to ensure my nominations aren't wildly ladder-specific and actually apply to the metagame as it exists in a high-level tournament context.
 
Veecy said:
Where can I find the usage statistics for the SM Cup of this Doubles Classic? I want to see what usage stats look like before making any VR nominations, to ensure my nominations aren't wildly ladder-specific and actually apply to the metagame as it exists in a high-level tournament context.
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You can find SM Cup stats in this post! The rest of Classic stats will be coming soon (when May's hand isn't cramping from typing full Pokemon form names over and over - I know mine sure are and I only did SM).
 
VR Nominations & Sample Team Suggestions

Metagross-Mega: Tier 1 -> Tier 2
Though Metagross-Mega is a dominant metagame force, being the most used Mega in general as well as within the context of the recent Doubles Classic, I simply don't believe it belongs in Tier 1. In addition to not having the same staggering usage percentages as the likes of Incineroar, Tapu Fini, and Landorus-Therian, it also lacks the true slappability that the other four Tier 1 members all share. While it can check and hard counter a large number of otherwise-threatening metagame forces, using it is a far more of a commitment than any of the other Tier 1s. It is typically not favored for the popular rain archetype, doesn't fit at all on Fullroom or Semi-Room, and can't provide much to more slow-paced and technical teams, such as those lead by Gothitelle. Its matchup coverage is wide, but it simply cannot match the sheer versatility of Incineroar, Landorus-T, and the Tapus.

Amoonguss: Tier 3 -> Tier 2
When speaking of matchup coverage, Amoonguss cannot be ignored. Its unrivaled redirection support and consistent sleep spreading let it fill what is, in essence, its entire own niche. This niche is not a small one, either, as many different teams benefit from this support. Its low speed and Spore let it underspeed and threaten most common Trick Room Pokemon (with the notable exception of Camerupt-Mega), while its typing, bulk, and ability to redirect Kingdra's Hydro Vortex make it a valuable check to rain attackers. It alone can do wonders to cover both the Rain and Fullroom matchups for a wide variety of teams, and is so versatile and unique in its skills that it often sees no competition for its team slot.

Hoopa-Unbound: UR -> Tier 5
This will either be my most or least controversial take, and I'm confident in that. Hoopa-Unbound has certainly seen better days, as one might infer from the old Team Frameworks thread. However, even though it is far from a dominant force in modern USUM DOU, I still consider it a significant enough piece of the tier to be included in the VR. The utility it provides in consistently breaking protection makes it an invaluable piece of certain Fullroom teams, one which cannot truly be replaced by any other mon. While its usage is nothing to write home about, it is higher than a fair few other Tier 5 mons. Though Hoopa-Unbound is very niche, it is, within that niche, the very best at what it does, which in my eyes earns it a spot alongside other niche, team-specific picks like Ludicolo.

Sample Team: Ladder's 20XX

:incineroar::tapu-fini::amoonguss::zapdos::metagross-mega::landorus-therian:

I don't claim credit for this team - though I did build it myself, I have on numerous occasions, both before and after building it, run into other players of various ELO ratings using the exact same team, usually with slightly different sets. This is just my personal take on the age-old balance team.
Incineroar is using Mago Berry as a micro-optimization to confuse opposing Araquanid if it switches into Bug Bite - same case for Landorus-Therian. Tapu Fini is running the typical Calm Mind moveset but with the support set's EVs. This is purely to let Tapu Fini function slightly better outside of a setup role. Amoonguss runs Giga Drain over Sludge Bomb to better deal with Swampert and Gastrodon.

Sample Team: Veecy's Scizdown

:scizor-mega::diancie::tapu-fini::incineroar::togekiss::zygarde:

For obvious personal reasons, I would love to see a Scizor team in the samples. This team, the direct sequel to The Ultimate Scizdown, is just one of many such teams in my builder, but it is my favorite of all of them.
Incineroar is using Mago Berry as a micro-optimization to confuse opposing Araquanid if it switches into Bug Bite. It is EV'd to avoid the 2HKO from standard Gastrodon's Earth Power and from -1 Kartana's Sacred Sword. The remaining EVs are put into Speed in order to win Fake Out wars and U-turn later under Trick Room. Tapu Fini opts for Scald for consistent Water-type damage to opponents such as Landorus-Therian and Camerupt-Mega. Togekiss adopts Grass Knot over Air Slash in order to check Gastrodon and Swampert, both of whom otherwise spell trouble for the team. It is EVd to always OHKO Swampert-Mega with Grass Knot. Zygarde opts for Thousand Waves over Dragon Tail, as I feel it provides better general utility.

I'm open to having sets changed on either of these teams, so feel free to suggest any such changes!
 
Veecy said:
Metagross-Mega: Tier 1 -> Tier 2
Though Metagross-Mega is a dominant metagame force, being the most used Mega in general as well as within the context of the recent Doubles Classic, I simply don't believe it belongs in Tier 1. In addition to not having the same staggering usage percentages as the likes of Incineroar, Tapu Fini, and Landorus-Therian, it also lacks the true slappability that the other four Tier 1 members all share. While it can check and hard counter a large number of otherwise-threatening metagame forces, using it is a far more of a commitment than any of the other Tier 1s. It is typically not favored for the popular rain archetype, doesn't fit at all on Fullroom or Semi-Room, and can't provide much to more slow-paced and technical teams, such as those lead by Gothitelle. Its matchup coverage is wide, but it simply cannot match the sheer versatility of Incineroar, Landorus-T, and the Tapus.
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I think Metagross is the best Mega in the format by far, and even if we just go by usage alone it has more (SM Cup, all rounds) usage than Tapu Koko despite being a Mega. Splashability is certainly one aspect of how good a Pokemon is in a format, but at least for generic goodstuffs builds Metagross so profoundly dominates the Mega space in this format that I don't think it's much of a "commitment" when, outside of some specific team types, you don't really want to use any other Mega anyway.

I also think you might be understating its potential on the archetypes you listed: imo it's a top 3 Mega on Rain (after Swampert and alongside Gardevoir, perhaps), and I think it's certainly usable on some semiroom builds. Personally speaking, on my Shedinja/Chansey team (which I would class as more slow-paced and technical) I've found Metagross to be the best Mega for its ability to bolster several matchups (Diancie, Kyurem-B, etc.), so I think it can have its value on those teams too.
 
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