Stall might be strong without Dugtrio, but the question is more a matter of if it's too strong with Dugtrio compared to "strong but fair" without
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Announcement SM OU Suspect Process, Round 2 - Dirt
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That is not the subject, but I'd love to hear some actual arguments on this, if you can go further in your thought process.
Nobody prepares for stall adequatly on ladder, that is right. However stall has also shown great results during SPL, so I'm afraid that argument is kinda shaky.
The aforementioned team would easily get the same results during tournaments.
Of course it benefits from the fact Mew and Gliscor are outdated stallbreakers because of Mega Sableye's presence; you usually don't prepare for threats that are not viable anymore.
And yes Zokuru is the person I got the Eject Button idea from + he helped to optimize some sets.
BReady
Banned deucer.
I don't see the problem. Well, maybe to a point. I just feel that it is incredibly premature to suspect a mon like Dugtrio. With the plethora of breakers and zmoves the threat to stall is overwhleming. This supect is misplaced in time.
YEA DAT WAY
Hey everyone, the OU tiering council has decided to test Dugtrio.
Dugtrio has been claimed to be the progenitor of the stall craze due to its incredible utility in trapping, and has thus led to further questioning of the role it plays in the metagame. In order to address a direct problem relating to the outcry against stall, we have decided due to popular consensus in the council and in the community, to suspect test Dugtrio.
Dugtrio itself possesses one of the greatest aids to defensive teams: the ability to trap would be stallbreakers and threats to defensive cores. By utilizing it's recent attack buff along with the wide amount of Pokemon it is able to neutralize, Dugtrio has become a favorite pick among defensive builds. With the ability Arena Trap, Dugtrio gains the ability to consistently pressure the opponent through the threat of completely throwing the momentum of the game by eliminating a key counter, or breaker, that threatens the team otherwise.
While at the start of generation seven stall did not see much play, slowly the community began to realize just how powerful a tool Dugtrio possessed in its ability. Dugtrio has the ability to pick apart teams and destroy otherwise solid measures against defensive builds, and is viewed by some to be a ridiculously centralizing force which pushes the need for niche counters onto the average builder. Outside of it's role as a utility 'mon for stall, Dugtrio can also function on more balanced teams which need an efficient way to eliminate select counters. Dugtrio can turn otherwise relatively equal matchups on their head by eliminating specific counters, destroying typical team structures. Dugtrio also functions as a revenge killer to set-up sweepers with its now increasingly common Choice Scarf set, which allows for the assured kill of certain sweepers through Arena Trap.
Due to the council's general belief that it is not Arena Trap that is intrinsically broken, but the user (Dugtrio), we have decided to exclusively suspect test this Pokemon.
For this round we are going to have two alternative ways to qualify for voting:
- Laddering: you will need to achieve a COIL rating of 2700 (or more) in a /!\ game limit of 70 games /!\ on the OU Suspect Test Ladder (in which Dugtrio is banned), that will be implemented very soon.
- Suspect Tours: check McMeghan's thread.
The suspect test will last for approximately 2 weeks and will end on February 23rd.
Use this thread to discuss the suspect and your thoughts on the suspect metagame. If you have any questions, then feel free to contact blunder, CrashinBoomBang, Finchinator, M Dragon, PDC, and/or TDK through a PM. These threads tend to get derailed so please make extra effort to stay on topic. Future suspects need not be discussed in this thread.
Keep in mind that, as usual, it's going to be up to the playerbase to decide the outcome of this test. Good luck and have fun laddering!
/!\Rules for posting in this thread/!\
- No one liners nor uninformed posts;
- No discussion on other potential suspects;
- No discussion on the suspect process;
- You are required to make respectful posts;
- You are required to read this thread before posting.
Failing to follow these simple guidelines will result into your post being deleted and infracted without any prior warning.
/!\ NOTICE /!\ OU will not be tolerating any form of voting manipulation. Any attempt to manipulate votes can result in an infraction, loss of eligibility to vote in the current test, and loss of the Tiering Contributor badge. While we won't necessarily enforce super strict punishment, this won't be tolerated and will be handled accordingly. Voting manipulation can simply be described as attempting to get people to vote a way on the test in inappropriate manners. Bribing with teams to vote a certain way, directly messaging people to vote a certain way, publicly announcing "vote this way" all fall under voting manipulation. If you have any further questions feel free to shoot TDK a PM.
Antar's edit: as with the previous OU tests, the B value for this test is 17.0. To figure out how many battles you will need to have in order to achieve reqs, first determine your GXE (shown on the ladder and when you type /rating) and plug that into the following formula:
N=17.0/log2(40*GXE/2700)
(Google calculator is awesome for this kind of thing).
Here are some sample values:
CODE:
GXE N 100 30 90 41 85 52 80 70 75 112 70 324
Tagging The Immortal so that this can be implemented on PS - thank you!
YEAH DAT WAY
Tele
a quality human being
To answer the first part of your post, stall wasnt really viable in xy, before the release of sablenite; regarding the possible consequences of a ban of sablenite, nobody really knows. My guess is that stall would be extremely weakened. Taunt users would probably shut down stall with ease (think to taunt mew, gliscor, azelf, fini). Even something as dumb as Rotom-w could be extremely annoying as it could just spread willowisps and volt switch on chansey. Ferrothorn would also be really annoying as it can set sr/spikes and outstall Skarmory's defog pps. List could go on. All these pokemons I cited are a dead weight against stall because of Mega Sableye. Taunt was a really common move in xy, in fact most teams carried a taunt user. Now you hardly see that move, because of Mega Sableye. Stall would probably need major adjustments. I'm actually not even sure it could survive a ban of sablenite tbh.
Sableye-mega isnt as good as it was in oras? i wouldnt necessarily agree. yes you got tapus and a couple of other fairies. But trust me on this point, Sab is still stall's most important pokemon.
Like someone said in the thread, i think the council is pandering to some people (abr?) and isnt looking at the bigger picture. Banning dugtrio wont solve anything. The only effect it might have is to make them look ridiculous when people will eventually realize dugtrio wasnt the problem. It has been a general consensus for a while now that phero is the most broken and unmanageable pokemon in the tier yet they have been persisting with the ban of dugtrio for like the past 6 months, first making threads like this and this, now with a suspect test. Notice that the people who made those threads in the policy review are the same people who now want dug banned. I hope the real people will prove them wrong and dug will stay in the tier with an outright majority so hopefully starting next week we will be done with this once and for all.
Funbot28
Banned deucer.
bludz we are not bringing up suspects on these offensive mons just because we feel that offense should take a nerf before stall, its because we are counter-arguing the claims that state the Dugtrio is the catalyst that amplifies the seemingly "broken" offensive pressure Mega Gross and Greninja apply. The reason why Dugtrio may seem as "uncompetitve" on offensive teams in my opinion at least, is because these aforementioned threats lack many solid checks, which all get conveniently trapped by Duggy. We are criticizing the use of Dugtrio as a scapegoat in this suspect, where the attention could have properly been addressed somewhere else (which we should have the right to express). There is no alternative agenda besides that.
Mega Sableye is what makes Duggy dumb on stall (and arguably Goth too, but lets not open those can of worms), but that has been explained enough in this thread so I will not repeat.
Mega Sableye is what makes Duggy dumb on stall (and arguably Goth too, but lets not open those can of worms), but that has been explained enough in this thread so I will not repeat.
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not relevant to the arguments but is this ladder closed at midnight tonight or at some point tomorrow? i believe in the past it tended to be around 10pm the day it closes but i'm not sure on that
If I don't make it, I don't really have any regrets. Personally after playing the ladder I've become more torn on the issue. I think Mega Sableye is the bigger issue than Dugtrio, or the combination thereof, but I digress.
I think even if I made it I would change my stance to abstain. I might still try, but meh don't feel as motivated to do it for some reason.
I think even if I made it I would change my stance to abstain. I might still try, but meh don't feel as motivated to do it for some reason.
I completely disagree with the banning of Dugtrio (hell I disagree with the test but nothing can be done about that).
Stall is a strong team, no doubt about that, but the mentions being thrown around here about how unbeatable it is are really laughable. Most of the people posting in this thread have played against stall, and they have noticed it is frustrating to play against. They have not, however, actually played stall at a high level enough to realize how it can be quite complex to use as well. Stall is inherently strong in ladder, especially more in an era full of replays. It is very easy to just go on the replays site and scout your opponent, learn all of its sets and consequently not get caught with your pants on the ground because of it. In a real high level setting, you dont have that advantage. That Garchomp your opponent has? It might have SR so you have to bring Sableye in on it. Or it might be SD LO with a fire move so you should have gone Clefable in the first place instead of letting your Skarm drop. All of these moves have very real consequences and they are minimized on ladder, hence Stall being much better. Most of the surprise hits you could get on a Stall team are gone.
Adding onto the last paragraph, you also dont know the sheer amount of Pokemon that can trouble stall heavily. You really dont get it until you use Stall enough, and then you realize "well shit theres nothing I could have done in this game". Just like how some people feel when they face stall:
We have the classic Alola Marowak (which by itself doesnt beat stall, but it makes it very easy to win, especially if its SD. Hell if its SR it does too, since Sableye and Skarmory cant switch in on it and now SR is up for the rest of your team to take advantage). You can stop this by playing VERY well with Toxapex and throwing tspikes up early, but that leaves Sableye without Mega Evolving and now layers become a real problem. Pursuit Dugtrio also works, but running Pursuit Dugtrio means youre not running Sucker Punch, and that means you will lose against opposing Stall teams straight up, so its a trade off.
We've got Tapu Lele of course, the quintessential stall breaker. People have started using Shed Shell on it for some reason, which is just straight up lazy building. Shed Shell Lele is legit what you throw into a stall weak team to fix the issue instead of building a team that isnt weak to stall in the first place (more on this later). Shed Shell or not, Lele gives Stall a shitton of troubles.
We have Landorus and Garchomp, which serve similar purposes. Both are aggressive SR setters that can threaten Stall heavily with a KO if the stall player makes a mistake. In a tourney setting in which you dont know your opponents set, this can mean a straight up loss. In the case you play correctly, Landorus still threatens to leave Skarmory at 1% at worst (if it counters a Stone Edge and survives with Sturdy) at the VERY least, as well as keeping rocks up. That being said, Landorus can also keep rocks up by forcing Skarm to run out of Defog. The Stall player can avoid this by bringing Sableye on a predicted SR, but if he mispredicts and brings Sableye on a Stone Edge then game is over. If he mispredicts and uses Counter instead of Defog as you Stealth Rock, you threaten you 2HKO the Sturdy Skarmory if it Defogs or Skarm is gonna be at 1% with SR up on the field and basically dead. Skarm gone means a good amount of mons can take advantage of a stall team, such as Mega Pinsir and Mega Metagross. Garchomp plays similarly in that it can threaten Skarm directly and it doesnt fear Counter. It also 2HKOs (OHKOs if SD) the Sableye.
Weve got Tapu Bulu. SD Z Fight is a bitch to face for stall but a good player can deal with it by doing some smart switching with Skarmory and Clefable to make it run out of Grassy Terrain. Add Leech Seed to that (not even a bad move) and Stall is now 6-0d.
Magma Heatran gets revenged by Dugtrio but it takes at least one mon down with it as long as you dont lead with it vs Sableye (Sab can outstall Magma Storm and switch out freely as it cant be trapped). Usually the mon dying is either Toxapex or Chansey, opening a hole to be taken advantage of. Its also great vs bulky offense teams so not a Shed Shell Lele level bandaid, which makes it great in my book.
Mega Gyarados 6-0s Stall without a single issue. I shouldnt have to explain how.
If you are smart and dont let Tapu Fini get knocked off by the Sableye, then it is a BITCH to face with stall. It wont win the game by itself but it will require some heavy outplaying by the opponent as Toxapex alone cant deal with it if it has lefties up (to nullify burn damage in case of a Scald burn, this is why you dont let it get knocked off).
Latios is a bitch to face in a tourney setting because you cant know its set. If you go to Sableye predicting a Scarf Trick and it ends up being Soul Dew or Specs, you just lost your Sableye and possibly the game. It offers trick too so thats nice.
LO Tornadus Therian keeps the stall player dancing around as it cant afford to let its Chansey eat a Knock Off, but everything else is 2HKOd by LO Hurricane or a Heat Wave in the case of Skarmory. Not trapped by Dugtrio and can spam U-Turn to regain momentum. Stall has to try to Toxic it with Chansey but again, a Knock Off could be huge trouble.
Not as common, but SD Breloom with Spore can put a lot of pressure on Stall. Something is going to go to sleep 100%, cant be revenge killed by Dugtrio (Stall cant afford to run Aerial Ace), and even Clefable gets 2hkod by Bullet Seed (if LO it 2HKOs with 3 hits, if no LO then it needs 4 hits).
Theres more than just single mons. There are also team structures that can dismantle Stall and are very hip right now. 1) Knock Off Landorus + Magnezone teams completely dumpster Stall, as the first mon youll bring into Landorus is always going to be Skarmory. 2) Nifty Tapu Koko + Mega Metagross can beatStall, as Thunderpunch is 2HKOing Skarm, one mispredict on the Metagross switch and your Skarm is dead and you lose the game. 3)Dugtrio itself, the Pokemon that supposedly makes Stall broken, completely destroys Stall as it takes down one mon you want gone (be it Chansey or Toxapex) for something else to take over. 4) Greninja + most stuff put a lot of Pressure on stall due to its ability to set up Spikes as it threatens a 2HKO on Sableye and Skarmory should they switch in (this also means Dugtrio cant switch in directly on a Hoopa or Tyranitar, for example). 5) Leech Seed Serperior + overwhelming Clefable is a win for you. This is even easier on tournaments where you can use surefire lures such as Acid Downpour Weavile (saw this shit work on ladder once). Or even better just run Zard X as the only answer stall has for that mon is to bring Clefable in and force it to Mega Evolve so Dugtrio can trap it. 6) Trick Room teams in general can dong stall team as it usually has Marowak + Bulu. Sometimes even Healing Wish support for Wak so RIP stall. 7) Hyper Offensive cores, such as the ones found on Sticky Web teams (of shit like Lele + Kartana) run through Stall. Dugtrio has to die to stop one of them, and then the other runs through the enemy team. Say it sacs itself so Lele doesnt straight up win, Kartana uses SD and sweeps the rest of the team clean as Dugtrio cant Reversal revenge it. 8) Dugtrio stall straight up loses to opposing Pressure Stall (ie with Zapdos or Suicune or whatever people like to use), they just get PP stalled faster and lose. 9) TheThorn brought a nice offensive core of Weavile + Magnezone in SPL, same principle as Landorus with Knock Off + Magnezone, just less common. 10) Mold Breaker Excadrill is a bitch because it gets SR up always. If its defensive its gonna break Dugtrio's sash by virtue of surviving EQ if it tries to trap it to stop the SR spam and Defog later. So basically Excadrill + Sweeper = Stall is annoyed badly. 11) A personal favorite was someone using Future Sight Slowking on ladder. Caught me completely by surprise and due to the extra added damage every 2 turns it broke my stall team pretty easily. 12) Magearna is really annoying for Stall because it can spam Volt Switch and give a ton of Momentum to the user, and if you guess wrong once and it decides to attack hard then, you lose a mon. Best bet is to catch it on a Volt Switch with Dugtrio and thats risky as all hell. Magearna + Dugtrio makes for a very fun offensive core. 13) Baton Pass is dumb as all hell and needs to go but yeah, Baton Pass 6-0s Stall straight up, no chance for the Stall user (Clef can ignore boosts but it wont ignore a 1000000 base power Stored Power). 14) Anti busted out his Mismagius team in SPL and the Mismagius set, coupled with its overall team structure, means Stall has a very rough time. A good example of solid and creative teambuilding that doesnt need a bandaid like Shed Shell Lele to beat Stall.
I think that should be good enough to prove how theres plenty of stuff that can trouble Stall hard, ESPECIALLY if the Stall user has no idea of exact sets. This is just with 1.5 months of SPL, the meta hasnt even developed that much and we are already seeing a ton of strategies that can dismantle stall. Give it another month and we will see more ways that dont rely on mediocre items like Shed Shell.
With that out of the way, something that really frustrates me about this test is how the OP of this thread is worded. Im not saying this is a conspiracy to ban Dug or whatever (even though we know the stance of some Council members already) but its very annoying that its a clear appeal to emotion to the general playerbase. All the OP does is equate Dugtrio to Stall. And since most players fucking dislike Stall because its "boring to play against and noob strategy kill it", then the obvious move is to ban Dugtrio. Dugtrio is so much more than Stall. Dugtrio adds new dimensions to the game that can be very damn entertaining. Its fine if you dont enjoy the facets it brings, everyone has their own opinions. Just dont act like its stupid broken on these teams because we know its not. Duggy can support some teams very well, making for interesting combinations. It adds diversity, it helps keep some things in check. Everyone agrees it is not broken in teams that arent Stall, and why is that?...
Because these teams dont have ridiculous hazard control. The problem people face regarding Dugtrio on Stall is that Focus Sash allows it to come in on most threats and get rid of them without Stall losing anything in return. Opponent have a Hoopa or Tyranitar? Just bring in Dugtrio and Focus Sash will keep it alive to revenge kill. Mega Sableye + Defog allows this. On a normal offensive team without Sableye, keeping layers off to have duggy at full so its Sash stays up requires a lot of skill. Ill use my SPL game for example, I sacked my fully healthy Latios to a Hydreigon I could have killed just so I could Defog the Stealth Rock that would have made my Dugtrio unable to kill the Mimikyu on the opposing team. Thats strategic thinking, not broken Pokemons acting up.
So yeah, Dugtrio without the ridiculous hazard control isnt broken. This leads me to agree with p2 and some others in that the problem is something else, not Dugtrio itself. Why Mega Sab? Because the opportunity cost is too much. Just by virtue of being there it makes the opponent think twice to get rocks up. This is nothing like Double Defog Stall (Zapdos + Skarm) in which they have to switch in, cant take bullshit advantage of putting my rocks up against me with a single switch, and THEN waste a full turn in using Defog to get them off. This is without taking into account many offensive Stealth Rockers are fantastic against these two. Landorus, Garchomp, Tyranitar, and a few others come to mind. If they dont switch in directly on them, then Skarm takes 12 and loses its Sturdy making it prone to get killed, and Zapdos eats 25% damage on the switch to Defog later. And this is without adding that Dugtrio isnt able to switch in freely as long as those rocks stay up. Without even taking into account that Sableye is the one mon that makes certain defensive mons complete fucking deadweight against stall. Ferrothorn, Celesteela, and Tangrowth come to mind. Especially Ferro who now cant do shit at all. And Tangrowth because Mega Sab has another advantage in that it cant get Knocked Off, so it switches in with impunity on Tang, rather than a Stall mon losing its very precious item that turns 2HKOs into 3HKOs. But whatever, for like p2 said in the PR thread, for some reason people say "WE ARENT TESTING THIS BCUZ ITS SHIT" without giving reasons so I guess thats that, sorry for the rambling paragraph.
Lets go back to Dugtrio. Heist put it best in a talk I had with him. You people want to get rid of the ONE thing that makes stall proactive. Dugtrio makes stall have an offensive out. Its Stall's way to actually do damage. Without it Stall is left as a passive bland dragfest that literally relies on passive chip to kill shit. Dugtrio is a good addition to stall. It adds diversity, a new out and more ways to play Stall that arent what I previously mentioned. This is good for the game, not bad.
And something I really fucking dislike and I want to someone to explain to me already: Why is the onus on the stall team rather than the stall weak team? Lets put it this way, you wouldnt bring a team that gets 6-0d by Mega Metagross or Greninja or Pheromosa or Double Dance Lando to a tourney game. If you do, and you end up getting swept by them, whats the reaction? This: "Shouldnt have brought a shit team that gets destroyed by one of the main forces of the metagame". This happens every day so you cant deny it. If you get destroyed by something thats a huge part of the metagame your team is bad, simple as that. You need to fix that shit. Why is it that when people bring ridiculously stall weak teams the reaction is the opposite? It goes: "Lol fuck Stall garbage ass style should be banned", when it should be "welp next time bring a good team that has literally 0 play against a very common team archetype". This pisses me off, dont wanna get 6-0d by stall then dont make a stall weak team. If you do bring a Stall weak team to a tourney game and face stall, dont say "lol stall is broken". You made the risk/reward. You opted for bringing a stall weak team because you thought it would give you a much better chance against whatever you expected your opponent to bring. This is the exact same as bringing a team that gets 6-0d by Rain and facing a Rain team. The onus should always be on the player that brought the team with a fatal weakness, not his opponent.
Hell if you want to bring shitty teams with bandaid fixes to stall thats fine, your problem. Just dont complain about having to dedicate one of your 6 slots so that you can add Shed Shell Tapu Lele so you dont get 6-0d by Stall. People complain about having to do this. You literally have to run one of Max Defense Tangrowth or Mega Scizor or Celesteela on your team or you get shit on by Mega Metagross. 3 answers of which one relies on sleep powder and another on no Thunderpunch. Complain about that shit not about having to run one of 20 options so that youre not weak to Stall. You wouldnt try to fix a bad team by adding 1 mon to deal with x archetype, but people do it with stall and then they complain when it bites them back. The problem here is that the top threats are too overwhelming. Get rid of them and now you have more space to deal with other shit that isnt 2 Mega Metagross answers + a Greninja one + a Lando/Chomp one and things will be much more lax teambuilding-wise.
And a recurring argument in this thread is that Dugtrio restricts teambuilding. You got it wrong. Dugtrio doesnt restrict teambuilding. You dont go "oh shit! this team blows because Dugtrio traps my Heatran!". The real things that restrict teambuilding and make stall shine are the things I just mentioned in the paragraph above. The only thing Dugtrio does is pose an in-battle threat to certain Pokemon that your opponent is gonna have to maneuver around. The exact same as most of the hip strategies throughout the history of Pokemon. Dugtrio: You can either use volt switch with Magearna or hit it with a Flash Cannon, time to get your prediction glasses on. Guess what this exact same shit happens vs a lot of other mons not just Dugtrio. And yes, like Dugtrio, getting it wrong means a dead Pokemon. If you get a prediction wrong against a Hoopa youre losing a mon. If you get a prediction wrong against a Greninja and youre using offense youre losing a mon. If you get a prediction wrong against a Magnezone youre losing your steel. It happens all the time, Dugtrio is nothing new here. Deciding when to finish off a mon and when not to so that youre not trapped on the revenge kill adds another way of playing the game that to me is very valuable and so is to other players. And like I said you can disagree with that but that does not mean its broken.
Ciele said something important to me. In his words, Stall only functions so well because its not the best playstyle. This is completely true. Stall often gets put on the side when building because people are more focused on taking on the top threats (cough cough the actual broken stuff). Noone builds a team thinking "Ok this team will not be weak to Stall". They make their team and then they realize its Stall weak. And then they try to fix it by adding one of said band-aid fixes. And it leads to a vicious cycle of bad building. If stall was the absolute best playstyle right now, this would be the opposite. Stall would be rampant in every tourney (6 uses in 60 battles in SPL come onnnn) and so people would build with the idea of beating stall in mind. This doesnt happen right now and thats why we have so many people complaining at the end of the day.
Now lets go ahead and review some (im skipping some that arent worth reviewing) of the SPL games being thrown around here to prove certain points:
Game 1 - I will start with the first Stall game in SPL, a game in which I brought Stall vs Mazar: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7pokebankou-234716
- In this game Mazar had a very real chance of beating my Stall team. His team has no ridiculous weaknesses, one could say its a pretty decently built team from a glance. This is without using Shed Shell Lele or other gimmick stuff. He made a team with a purpose and his team was fine tuned to not lose vs stall. Now why did he lose? Thats not down to the team, thats down to Mazar misplaying his cards. His first mistake was to let his stallbreaker Tapu Fini eat a Knock Off. If he switches out that Tapu Fini would have ended the game later down the stretch. After, Mazar makes what looks like a pretty awesome play and catches my Toxapex on the switch with his own Dugtrio. He made the mistake of not calculating his Tectonic Rage however, and lost his Dugtrio in the process. His big mistake here was not realizing that he should have trapped Chansey, not Toxapex, as without Chansey his Zapdos would have given me a hell of a rough ride, without even mentioning that if his Dugtrio was Screech, he could have killed Chansey, kept his Tectonic Rage, and trapped Toxapex after. Even without a crit Scald, my own Dugtrio would have trapped his afterwards, and Chansey + Clefable walled the rest of his team handily.
In conclusion, this game was a great matchup for Mazar's anti stall team, that came down to him misplaying his win conditions, not Stall being broken.
Game 2 - Sweepage vs Hector Hard Mode: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7pokebankou-234706
This isnt Stall but it demonstrates how Dugtrio can be an interesting offensive player. It might seem super broken how Sweepage could kill the Volcarona without Hector being able to do anything, but the thing here is Sweepage played that perfectly. He knew Hector would think thats a Sash Duggy, he knew rocks up wouldnt stop Dugtrio from dealing with Volcarona. He makes an extremely risky play, though, as if Hector had decided to attack that turn, Sweepage effectively lost the game. He gambled and he got it right, thats not Dugtrio being broken thats a good player making a good play.
Games 3 & 4 - blunder vs Destiny Device and reyscarface vs Chill Shadow: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7pokebankou-235878 & http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7pokebankou-238377.
These games demonstrate that people dont prepare properly for Stall. Stall vs ridiculously stall weak team = Stall win, who would have thought. Things would have been different if Destiny Device had a Screech Dugtrio, though. It could have potentially opened up a path to victory for him, but as it stood, both these teams were stall weak and deservedly lost.
Game 5 - Poek vs Yusuke: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7pokebankou-238152
This game perfectly demonstrates that a player with lack of experience using stall can and will lose against a competent player. In this game Yusuke brought a bad variation of a Stall team. This, coupled with some shaky plays, meant that a stall weak team like Poeks could snag a win. Dugtrio kills the Hoopa, but proceeds to give a free turn to Landorus who then ravages the rest of Yusuke's team and without his Pinsir counters, it was an easy win for Poek.
Game 6 - TDK vs FlamingVictini: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7pokebankou-238383
Another game of Stall vs stall weak team. TDK plays the matchup perfectly and proceeds to win. A Knock Off Landorus would have put a tooon of work there, though.
Game 7 - Ciele vs IAmGingy: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-245369
In this game we have the opposite of last one. We have a Stall team vs a team that destroys Stall. Tectonic Rage Garchomp shows up (with the aid of a Toxic miss) and weakens enough of Ciele's team for Tapu Lele to seal the deal if needed.
Game 8 - TheThorn vs Destiny Device: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-250787
This is the game thats been talked about the most recently, causing outrage at how a Stall team could defeat an SD AlolaWak. We already saw what happens when someone inexperienced with stall plays stall in Yusuke vs Poek, and now this battle is an example of someone inexperienced in playing against Stall. Every experienced player will tell you this, this game should have been won by Destiny Device every single time. TheThorn had a good countermeasure for the sweeping Marowak in Pursuit Dugtrio (which leaves him destroyed by opposing Stall due to the lack of Sucker Punch btw, so its a tradeoff) but it shouldnt have even come to that. In this game we got to see what happens when someone brings a set that the stall player has 0 knowledge of. TheThorn lost his Clefable because he thought Landorus was Continental Crush, and if he had known that (which is v common in ladder), he would have just gone to Skarm without losing Clef, probably. TheThorn then makes a great play and predicts the Greninja using Spikes to bring Sableye in, thats just a solid prediction not Stall being broken, and if DD had predicted that and Pumped, game was over right there. Now, the problem here is it took Destiny Device a century to realize Skarmory could not touch Landorus. Lando was gonna get +6, stall the Skarmory out of Defogs, and potentially threaten the Sableye with an EQ if it dared to switch in. It took him too long to realize that (his lando was already at 11%, trap percentage for Dug) and he lost due to that.
All this game proves is that if a skilled player utilizes Stall and is able to outplay his opponent (and his opponent chokes a good amount), then the Stall user can win despite bad matchup. Guess what, this happens in Bulky Offense vs Bulky Offense too!
Ill finish this post with my thoughts of the ladder. Honestly the metagame I played in ladder was aids and I am not thrilled to play it again in the future. Rampant obvious threats running around and one less thing to stop them. What I feel should have done was: Suspect test Mega Metagross and friends, analyze how the metagame develops (which would probably be in favor of not using Stall weak teams, stall was stronger when Genesect was around for the same reason, which I outlined in the Genesect thread, which was that Genesect put much strain on Offense and Balance builds, which in turn helped Stall as they werent worried about Genesect) and then consider a test if Stall is too strong. This test was rushed and showed a lack of patience. Stall has been used a grand 6 times in SPL, losing 2 games and winning 4 of which 2 were down to team matchup due to bad teams being used. Voters, please consider this and realize that once we ban a mon the odds of it coming back are null. This wasnt the time to test Dugtrio. It maaaaybe deserved a test in the future, but not now, when theres other shit to worry about. The order in which we test things matters, and it matters a lot.
Stall is a strong team, no doubt about that, but the mentions being thrown around here about how unbeatable it is are really laughable. Most of the people posting in this thread have played against stall, and they have noticed it is frustrating to play against. They have not, however, actually played stall at a high level enough to realize how it can be quite complex to use as well. Stall is inherently strong in ladder, especially more in an era full of replays. It is very easy to just go on the replays site and scout your opponent, learn all of its sets and consequently not get caught with your pants on the ground because of it. In a real high level setting, you dont have that advantage. That Garchomp your opponent has? It might have SR so you have to bring Sableye in on it. Or it might be SD LO with a fire move so you should have gone Clefable in the first place instead of letting your Skarm drop. All of these moves have very real consequences and they are minimized on ladder, hence Stall being much better. Most of the surprise hits you could get on a Stall team are gone.
Adding onto the last paragraph, you also dont know the sheer amount of Pokemon that can trouble stall heavily. You really dont get it until you use Stall enough, and then you realize "well shit theres nothing I could have done in this game". Just like how some people feel when they face stall:
We have the classic Alola Marowak (which by itself doesnt beat stall, but it makes it very easy to win, especially if its SD. Hell if its SR it does too, since Sableye and Skarmory cant switch in on it and now SR is up for the rest of your team to take advantage). You can stop this by playing VERY well with Toxapex and throwing tspikes up early, but that leaves Sableye without Mega Evolving and now layers become a real problem. Pursuit Dugtrio also works, but running Pursuit Dugtrio means youre not running Sucker Punch, and that means you will lose against opposing Stall teams straight up, so its a trade off.
We've got Tapu Lele of course, the quintessential stall breaker. People have started using Shed Shell on it for some reason, which is just straight up lazy building. Shed Shell Lele is legit what you throw into a stall weak team to fix the issue instead of building a team that isnt weak to stall in the first place (more on this later). Shed Shell or not, Lele gives Stall a shitton of troubles.
We have Landorus and Garchomp, which serve similar purposes. Both are aggressive SR setters that can threaten Stall heavily with a KO if the stall player makes a mistake. In a tourney setting in which you dont know your opponents set, this can mean a straight up loss. In the case you play correctly, Landorus still threatens to leave Skarmory at 1% at worst (if it counters a Stone Edge and survives with Sturdy) at the VERY least, as well as keeping rocks up. That being said, Landorus can also keep rocks up by forcing Skarm to run out of Defog. The Stall player can avoid this by bringing Sableye on a predicted SR, but if he mispredicts and brings Sableye on a Stone Edge then game is over. If he mispredicts and uses Counter instead of Defog as you Stealth Rock, you threaten you 2HKO the Sturdy Skarmory if it Defogs or Skarm is gonna be at 1% with SR up on the field and basically dead. Skarm gone means a good amount of mons can take advantage of a stall team, such as Mega Pinsir and Mega Metagross. Garchomp plays similarly in that it can threaten Skarm directly and it doesnt fear Counter. It also 2HKOs (OHKOs if SD) the Sableye.
Weve got Tapu Bulu. SD Z Fight is a bitch to face for stall but a good player can deal with it by doing some smart switching with Skarmory and Clefable to make it run out of Grassy Terrain. Add Leech Seed to that (not even a bad move) and Stall is now 6-0d.
Magma Heatran gets revenged by Dugtrio but it takes at least one mon down with it as long as you dont lead with it vs Sableye (Sab can outstall Magma Storm and switch out freely as it cant be trapped). Usually the mon dying is either Toxapex or Chansey, opening a hole to be taken advantage of. Its also great vs bulky offense teams so not a Shed Shell Lele level bandaid, which makes it great in my book.
Mega Gyarados 6-0s Stall without a single issue. I shouldnt have to explain how.
If you are smart and dont let Tapu Fini get knocked off by the Sableye, then it is a BITCH to face with stall. It wont win the game by itself but it will require some heavy outplaying by the opponent as Toxapex alone cant deal with it if it has lefties up (to nullify burn damage in case of a Scald burn, this is why you dont let it get knocked off).
Latios is a bitch to face in a tourney setting because you cant know its set. If you go to Sableye predicting a Scarf Trick and it ends up being Soul Dew or Specs, you just lost your Sableye and possibly the game. It offers trick too so thats nice.
LO Tornadus Therian keeps the stall player dancing around as it cant afford to let its Chansey eat a Knock Off, but everything else is 2HKOd by LO Hurricane or a Heat Wave in the case of Skarmory. Not trapped by Dugtrio and can spam U-Turn to regain momentum. Stall has to try to Toxic it with Chansey but again, a Knock Off could be huge trouble.
Not as common, but SD Breloom with Spore can put a lot of pressure on Stall. Something is going to go to sleep 100%, cant be revenge killed by Dugtrio (Stall cant afford to run Aerial Ace), and even Clefable gets 2hkod by Bullet Seed (if LO it 2HKOs with 3 hits, if no LO then it needs 4 hits).
Theres more than just single mons. There are also team structures that can dismantle Stall and are very hip right now. 1) Knock Off Landorus + Magnezone teams completely dumpster Stall, as the first mon youll bring into Landorus is always going to be Skarmory. 2) Nifty Tapu Koko + Mega Metagross can beatStall, as Thunderpunch is 2HKOing Skarm, one mispredict on the Metagross switch and your Skarm is dead and you lose the game. 3)Dugtrio itself, the Pokemon that supposedly makes Stall broken, completely destroys Stall as it takes down one mon you want gone (be it Chansey or Toxapex) for something else to take over. 4) Greninja + most stuff put a lot of Pressure on stall due to its ability to set up Spikes as it threatens a 2HKO on Sableye and Skarmory should they switch in (this also means Dugtrio cant switch in directly on a Hoopa or Tyranitar, for example). 5) Leech Seed Serperior + overwhelming Clefable is a win for you. This is even easier on tournaments where you can use surefire lures such as Acid Downpour Weavile (saw this shit work on ladder once). Or even better just run Zard X as the only answer stall has for that mon is to bring Clefable in and force it to Mega Evolve so Dugtrio can trap it. 6) Trick Room teams in general can dong stall team as it usually has Marowak + Bulu. Sometimes even Healing Wish support for Wak so RIP stall. 7) Hyper Offensive cores, such as the ones found on Sticky Web teams (of shit like Lele + Kartana) run through Stall. Dugtrio has to die to stop one of them, and then the other runs through the enemy team. Say it sacs itself so Lele doesnt straight up win, Kartana uses SD and sweeps the rest of the team clean as Dugtrio cant Reversal revenge it. 8) Dugtrio stall straight up loses to opposing Pressure Stall (ie with Zapdos or Suicune or whatever people like to use), they just get PP stalled faster and lose. 9) TheThorn brought a nice offensive core of Weavile + Magnezone in SPL, same principle as Landorus with Knock Off + Magnezone, just less common. 10) Mold Breaker Excadrill is a bitch because it gets SR up always. If its defensive its gonna break Dugtrio's sash by virtue of surviving EQ if it tries to trap it to stop the SR spam and Defog later. So basically Excadrill + Sweeper = Stall is annoyed badly. 11) A personal favorite was someone using Future Sight Slowking on ladder. Caught me completely by surprise and due to the extra added damage every 2 turns it broke my stall team pretty easily. 12) Magearna is really annoying for Stall because it can spam Volt Switch and give a ton of Momentum to the user, and if you guess wrong once and it decides to attack hard then, you lose a mon. Best bet is to catch it on a Volt Switch with Dugtrio and thats risky as all hell. Magearna + Dugtrio makes for a very fun offensive core. 13) Baton Pass is dumb as all hell and needs to go but yeah, Baton Pass 6-0s Stall straight up, no chance for the Stall user (Clef can ignore boosts but it wont ignore a 1000000 base power Stored Power). 14) Anti busted out his Mismagius team in SPL and the Mismagius set, coupled with its overall team structure, means Stall has a very rough time. A good example of solid and creative teambuilding that doesnt need a bandaid like Shed Shell Lele to beat Stall.
I think that should be good enough to prove how theres plenty of stuff that can trouble Stall hard, ESPECIALLY if the Stall user has no idea of exact sets. This is just with 1.5 months of SPL, the meta hasnt even developed that much and we are already seeing a ton of strategies that can dismantle stall. Give it another month and we will see more ways that dont rely on mediocre items like Shed Shell.
With that out of the way, something that really frustrates me about this test is how the OP of this thread is worded. Im not saying this is a conspiracy to ban Dug or whatever (even though we know the stance of some Council members already) but its very annoying that its a clear appeal to emotion to the general playerbase. All the OP does is equate Dugtrio to Stall. And since most players fucking dislike Stall because its "boring to play against and noob strategy kill it", then the obvious move is to ban Dugtrio. Dugtrio is so much more than Stall. Dugtrio adds new dimensions to the game that can be very damn entertaining. Its fine if you dont enjoy the facets it brings, everyone has their own opinions. Just dont act like its stupid broken on these teams because we know its not. Duggy can support some teams very well, making for interesting combinations. It adds diversity, it helps keep some things in check. Everyone agrees it is not broken in teams that arent Stall, and why is that?...
Because these teams dont have ridiculous hazard control. The problem people face regarding Dugtrio on Stall is that Focus Sash allows it to come in on most threats and get rid of them without Stall losing anything in return. Opponent have a Hoopa or Tyranitar? Just bring in Dugtrio and Focus Sash will keep it alive to revenge kill. Mega Sableye + Defog allows this. On a normal offensive team without Sableye, keeping layers off to have duggy at full so its Sash stays up requires a lot of skill. Ill use my SPL game for example, I sacked my fully healthy Latios to a Hydreigon I could have killed just so I could Defog the Stealth Rock that would have made my Dugtrio unable to kill the Mimikyu on the opposing team. Thats strategic thinking, not broken Pokemons acting up.
So yeah, Dugtrio without the ridiculous hazard control isnt broken. This leads me to agree with p2 and some others in that the problem is something else, not Dugtrio itself. Why Mega Sab? Because the opportunity cost is too much. Just by virtue of being there it makes the opponent think twice to get rocks up. This is nothing like Double Defog Stall (Zapdos + Skarm) in which they have to switch in, cant take bullshit advantage of putting my rocks up against me with a single switch, and THEN waste a full turn in using Defog to get them off. This is without taking into account many offensive Stealth Rockers are fantastic against these two. Landorus, Garchomp, Tyranitar, and a few others come to mind. If they dont switch in directly on them, then Skarm takes 12 and loses its Sturdy making it prone to get killed, and Zapdos eats 25% damage on the switch to Defog later. And this is without adding that Dugtrio isnt able to switch in freely as long as those rocks stay up. Without even taking into account that Sableye is the one mon that makes certain defensive mons complete fucking deadweight against stall. Ferrothorn, Celesteela, and Tangrowth come to mind. Especially Ferro who now cant do shit at all. And Tangrowth because Mega Sab has another advantage in that it cant get Knocked Off, so it switches in with impunity on Tang, rather than a Stall mon losing its very precious item that turns 2HKOs into 3HKOs. But whatever, for like p2 said in the PR thread, for some reason people say "WE ARENT TESTING THIS BCUZ ITS SHIT" without giving reasons so I guess thats that, sorry for the rambling paragraph.
Lets go back to Dugtrio. Heist put it best in a talk I had with him. You people want to get rid of the ONE thing that makes stall proactive. Dugtrio makes stall have an offensive out. Its Stall's way to actually do damage. Without it Stall is left as a passive bland dragfest that literally relies on passive chip to kill shit. Dugtrio is a good addition to stall. It adds diversity, a new out and more ways to play Stall that arent what I previously mentioned. This is good for the game, not bad.
And something I really fucking dislike and I want to someone to explain to me already: Why is the onus on the stall team rather than the stall weak team? Lets put it this way, you wouldnt bring a team that gets 6-0d by Mega Metagross or Greninja or Pheromosa or Double Dance Lando to a tourney game. If you do, and you end up getting swept by them, whats the reaction? This: "Shouldnt have brought a shit team that gets destroyed by one of the main forces of the metagame". This happens every day so you cant deny it. If you get destroyed by something thats a huge part of the metagame your team is bad, simple as that. You need to fix that shit. Why is it that when people bring ridiculously stall weak teams the reaction is the opposite? It goes: "Lol fuck Stall garbage ass style should be banned", when it should be "welp next time bring a good team that has literally 0 play against a very common team archetype". This pisses me off, dont wanna get 6-0d by stall then dont make a stall weak team. If you do bring a Stall weak team to a tourney game and face stall, dont say "lol stall is broken". You made the risk/reward. You opted for bringing a stall weak team because you thought it would give you a much better chance against whatever you expected your opponent to bring. This is the exact same as bringing a team that gets 6-0d by Rain and facing a Rain team. The onus should always be on the player that brought the team with a fatal weakness, not his opponent.
Hell if you want to bring shitty teams with bandaid fixes to stall thats fine, your problem. Just dont complain about having to dedicate one of your 6 slots so that you can add Shed Shell Tapu Lele so you dont get 6-0d by Stall. People complain about having to do this. You literally have to run one of Max Defense Tangrowth or Mega Scizor or Celesteela on your team or you get shit on by Mega Metagross. 3 answers of which one relies on sleep powder and another on no Thunderpunch. Complain about that shit not about having to run one of 20 options so that youre not weak to Stall. You wouldnt try to fix a bad team by adding 1 mon to deal with x archetype, but people do it with stall and then they complain when it bites them back. The problem here is that the top threats are too overwhelming. Get rid of them and now you have more space to deal with other shit that isnt 2 Mega Metagross answers + a Greninja one + a Lando/Chomp one and things will be much more lax teambuilding-wise.
And a recurring argument in this thread is that Dugtrio restricts teambuilding. You got it wrong. Dugtrio doesnt restrict teambuilding. You dont go "oh shit! this team blows because Dugtrio traps my Heatran!". The real things that restrict teambuilding and make stall shine are the things I just mentioned in the paragraph above. The only thing Dugtrio does is pose an in-battle threat to certain Pokemon that your opponent is gonna have to maneuver around. The exact same as most of the hip strategies throughout the history of Pokemon. Dugtrio: You can either use volt switch with Magearna or hit it with a Flash Cannon, time to get your prediction glasses on. Guess what this exact same shit happens vs a lot of other mons not just Dugtrio. And yes, like Dugtrio, getting it wrong means a dead Pokemon. If you get a prediction wrong against a Hoopa youre losing a mon. If you get a prediction wrong against a Greninja and youre using offense youre losing a mon. If you get a prediction wrong against a Magnezone youre losing your steel. It happens all the time, Dugtrio is nothing new here. Deciding when to finish off a mon and when not to so that youre not trapped on the revenge kill adds another way of playing the game that to me is very valuable and so is to other players. And like I said you can disagree with that but that does not mean its broken.
Ciele said something important to me. In his words, Stall only functions so well because its not the best playstyle. This is completely true. Stall often gets put on the side when building because people are more focused on taking on the top threats (cough cough the actual broken stuff). Noone builds a team thinking "Ok this team will not be weak to Stall". They make their team and then they realize its Stall weak. And then they try to fix it by adding one of said band-aid fixes. And it leads to a vicious cycle of bad building. If stall was the absolute best playstyle right now, this would be the opposite. Stall would be rampant in every tourney (6 uses in 60 battles in SPL come onnnn) and so people would build with the idea of beating stall in mind. This doesnt happen right now and thats why we have so many people complaining at the end of the day.
Now lets go ahead and review some (im skipping some that arent worth reviewing) of the SPL games being thrown around here to prove certain points:
Game 1 - I will start with the first Stall game in SPL, a game in which I brought Stall vs Mazar: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7pokebankou-234716
- In this game Mazar had a very real chance of beating my Stall team. His team has no ridiculous weaknesses, one could say its a pretty decently built team from a glance. This is without using Shed Shell Lele or other gimmick stuff. He made a team with a purpose and his team was fine tuned to not lose vs stall. Now why did he lose? Thats not down to the team, thats down to Mazar misplaying his cards. His first mistake was to let his stallbreaker Tapu Fini eat a Knock Off. If he switches out that Tapu Fini would have ended the game later down the stretch. After, Mazar makes what looks like a pretty awesome play and catches my Toxapex on the switch with his own Dugtrio. He made the mistake of not calculating his Tectonic Rage however, and lost his Dugtrio in the process. His big mistake here was not realizing that he should have trapped Chansey, not Toxapex, as without Chansey his Zapdos would have given me a hell of a rough ride, without even mentioning that if his Dugtrio was Screech, he could have killed Chansey, kept his Tectonic Rage, and trapped Toxapex after. Even without a crit Scald, my own Dugtrio would have trapped his afterwards, and Chansey + Clefable walled the rest of his team handily.
In conclusion, this game was a great matchup for Mazar's anti stall team, that came down to him misplaying his win conditions, not Stall being broken.
Game 2 - Sweepage vs Hector Hard Mode: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7pokebankou-234706
This isnt Stall but it demonstrates how Dugtrio can be an interesting offensive player. It might seem super broken how Sweepage could kill the Volcarona without Hector being able to do anything, but the thing here is Sweepage played that perfectly. He knew Hector would think thats a Sash Duggy, he knew rocks up wouldnt stop Dugtrio from dealing with Volcarona. He makes an extremely risky play, though, as if Hector had decided to attack that turn, Sweepage effectively lost the game. He gambled and he got it right, thats not Dugtrio being broken thats a good player making a good play.
Games 3 & 4 - blunder vs Destiny Device and reyscarface vs Chill Shadow: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7pokebankou-235878 & http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7pokebankou-238377.
These games demonstrate that people dont prepare properly for Stall. Stall vs ridiculously stall weak team = Stall win, who would have thought. Things would have been different if Destiny Device had a Screech Dugtrio, though. It could have potentially opened up a path to victory for him, but as it stood, both these teams were stall weak and deservedly lost.
Game 5 - Poek vs Yusuke: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7pokebankou-238152
This game perfectly demonstrates that a player with lack of experience using stall can and will lose against a competent player. In this game Yusuke brought a bad variation of a Stall team. This, coupled with some shaky plays, meant that a stall weak team like Poeks could snag a win. Dugtrio kills the Hoopa, but proceeds to give a free turn to Landorus who then ravages the rest of Yusuke's team and without his Pinsir counters, it was an easy win for Poek.
Game 6 - TDK vs FlamingVictini: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7pokebankou-238383
Another game of Stall vs stall weak team. TDK plays the matchup perfectly and proceeds to win. A Knock Off Landorus would have put a tooon of work there, though.
Game 7 - Ciele vs IAmGingy: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-245369
In this game we have the opposite of last one. We have a Stall team vs a team that destroys Stall. Tectonic Rage Garchomp shows up (with the aid of a Toxic miss) and weakens enough of Ciele's team for Tapu Lele to seal the deal if needed.
Game 8 - TheThorn vs Destiny Device: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-250787
This is the game thats been talked about the most recently, causing outrage at how a Stall team could defeat an SD AlolaWak. We already saw what happens when someone inexperienced with stall plays stall in Yusuke vs Poek, and now this battle is an example of someone inexperienced in playing against Stall. Every experienced player will tell you this, this game should have been won by Destiny Device every single time. TheThorn had a good countermeasure for the sweeping Marowak in Pursuit Dugtrio (which leaves him destroyed by opposing Stall due to the lack of Sucker Punch btw, so its a tradeoff) but it shouldnt have even come to that. In this game we got to see what happens when someone brings a set that the stall player has 0 knowledge of. TheThorn lost his Clefable because he thought Landorus was Continental Crush, and if he had known that (which is v common in ladder), he would have just gone to Skarm without losing Clef, probably. TheThorn then makes a great play and predicts the Greninja using Spikes to bring Sableye in, thats just a solid prediction not Stall being broken, and if DD had predicted that and Pumped, game was over right there. Now, the problem here is it took Destiny Device a century to realize Skarmory could not touch Landorus. Lando was gonna get +6, stall the Skarmory out of Defogs, and potentially threaten the Sableye with an EQ if it dared to switch in. It took him too long to realize that (his lando was already at 11%, trap percentage for Dug) and he lost due to that.
All this game proves is that if a skilled player utilizes Stall and is able to outplay his opponent (and his opponent chokes a good amount), then the Stall user can win despite bad matchup. Guess what, this happens in Bulky Offense vs Bulky Offense too!
Ill finish this post with my thoughts of the ladder. Honestly the metagame I played in ladder was aids and I am not thrilled to play it again in the future. Rampant obvious threats running around and one less thing to stop them. What I feel should have done was: Suspect test Mega Metagross and friends, analyze how the metagame develops (which would probably be in favor of not using Stall weak teams, stall was stronger when Genesect was around for the same reason, which I outlined in the Genesect thread, which was that Genesect put much strain on Offense and Balance builds, which in turn helped Stall as they werent worried about Genesect) and then consider a test if Stall is too strong. This test was rushed and showed a lack of patience. Stall has been used a grand 6 times in SPL, losing 2 games and winning 4 of which 2 were down to team matchup due to bad teams being used. Voters, please consider this and realize that once we ban a mon the odds of it coming back are null. This wasnt the time to test Dugtrio. It maaaaybe deserved a test in the future, but not now, when theres other shit to worry about. The order in which we test things matters, and it matters a lot.
My College thesis wasn't as well written and was probably shorter reyscarface.
I think this post is ok. I think a pro active stall user myself be best to respond to this post and id like to respond to it section by section.
I wanna start this off by saying while I was laddering without duggy I found stall so much more manageable and ez to beat/break. Was able to be more creative with my builds use trap weak mons like heatran and hoopa freely. I will happily be voting ban.
Here we go into rey's post...
Stall is a strong team, no doubt about that, but the mentions being thrown around here about how unbeatable it is are really laughable. Most of the people posting in this thread have played against stall, and they have noticed it is frustrating to play against. They have not, however, actually played stall at a high level enough to realize how it can be quite complex to use as well. Stall is inherently strong in ladder, especially more in an era full of replays. It is very easy to just go on the replays site and scout your opponent, learn all of its sets and consequently not get caught with your pants on the ground because of it. In a real high level setting, you dont have that advantage. That Garchomp your opponent has? It might have SR so you have to bring Sableye in on it. Or it might be SD LO with a fire move so you should have gone Clefable in the first place instead of letting your Skarm drop. All of these moves have very real consequences and they are minimized on ladder, hence Stall being much better. Most of the surprise hits you could get on a Stall team are gone.
I have used stall in ost semi-finals and alot of other rounds. I can say stall this gen playing with it is much easier to win and much harder to face. The aspects of sableye keeping off most hazards,toxapex setting up spikes,clefable unawaring and sableye with clefable protect stalling pretty nicely is incredible. There have been many of games were I would be behind but I could easily make a double set up t spikes and pressure my opp to the point were I overcome the deficit and end result win the game. A good player with stall is very lethal. My fren R!cardo faced a decently anti stall team for his r1 ost match. You can watch game (here). Anyway, volt turn bringing lele with shed shell is pretty scary for any stall player but ricardo made very nice plays to ensure his victory. Now, we take this (replay) and I have used this replay for many posts but this really is one the best games showing how stupid duggy is. My team is pretty anti balance shown here specs hoopa,cm taunt fini,z move taunt tran. During the suspect test this team was able to beat stall without duggy around decently well. The result of duggys presence in the replay above left my team helpless and unable to do anything along with its great bulky teammates. Stall doesn't have to be surprising to win, you don't need to finesse to win. Simply if you play well its hard for your opp to win vs stall. The most famous stall team "sableye,clef,toxapex,skarm,lele,dug" is I believe 4/5-0 in spl play which is where you expect "high level play"
Adding onto the last paragraph, you also dont know the sheer amount of Pokemon that can trouble stall heavily. You really dont get it until you use Stall enough, and then you realize "well shit theres nothing I could have done in this game". Just like how some people feel when they face stall:
I literally have never used stall and went damn there's nothing I could have done this game cause with stall this gen you can find a way. Unless you get flinched to shit by togekiss(which isn't even viable atm) there really has never been a moment where im like damn there was nothing I could have done this game. Maybe skill level I guess is a factor to make u think there is nothing you could have done. Me personally having used stall enough I know there's something I could do every game.
We have the classic Alola Marowak (which by itself doesnt beat stall, but it makes it very easy to win, especially if its SD. Hell if its SR it does too, since Sableye and Skarmory cant switch in on it and now SR is up for the rest of your team to take advantage). You can stop this by playing VERY well with Toxapex and throwing tspikes up early, but that leaves Sableye without Mega Evolving and now layers become a real problem. Pursuit Dugtrio also works, but running Pursuit Dugtrio means youre not running Sucker Punch, and that means you will lose against opposing Stall teams straight up, so its a trade off.
Alright, alola maro one of my fav breakers lets get into it. I agree with most of the aspects here. There is also the fact you can run eject button and easily get dugtrio in for a pursuit. Dugtrio generally does not need sucker punch least from personal experience. I've only needed eq pursuit at times screech and what else the team requires trapped. I don't know how sucker punch helps against stall teams but im going to give you the benefit of the doubt and hope you mean screech.
We've got Tapu Lele of course, the quintessential stall breaker. People have started using Shed Shell on it for some reason, which is just straight up lazy building. Shed Shell Lele is legit what you throw into a stall weak team to fix the issue instead of building a team that isnt weak to stall in the first place (more on this later). Shed Shell or not, Lele gives Stall a shitton of troubles.
The only lele that gives stall trouble is shed shell. There's nothing lazy about it coming from a teambuilder there are very little measures for stall as it is. I don't mind putting shed shell on a mon that will make my match up easier vs stall because as you know its foolish to be weak to stall. If you wanna be lazy when it comes to prepping for stall be DD. Any other lele expect shed shell stall can manage and deal with it well. Taunt Shed Shell imo is the best way to handle some of ur stall issues. You add shed shell on lele so you can use the remaining 5 members to handle threats other then stall threats. I've seen first hand when you focus solely or mostly on stall it opens big issues vs other match ups.
We have Landorus and Garchomp, which serve similar purposes. Both are aggressive SR setters that can threaten Stall heavily with a KO if the stall player makes a mistake. In a tourney setting in which you dont know your opponents set, this can mean a straight up loss. In the case you play correctly, Landorus still threatens to leave Skarmory at 1% at worst (if it counters a Stone Edge and survives with Sturdy) at the VERY least, as well as keeping rocks up. That being said, Landorus can also keep rocks up by forcing Skarm to run out of Defog. The Stall player can avoid this by bringing Sableye on a predicted SR, but if he mispredicts and brings Sableye on a Stone Edge then game is over. If he mispredicts and uses Counter instead of Defog as you Stealth Rock, you threaten you 2HKO the Sturdy Skarmory if it Defogs or Skarm is gonna be at 1% with SR up on the field and basically dead. Skarm gone means a good amount of mons can take advantage of a stall team, such as Mega Pinsir and Mega Metagross. Garchomp plays similarly in that it can threaten Skarm directly and it doesnt fear Counter. It also 2HKOs (OHKOs if SD) the Sableye.
Very little to dispute here. Garchomp and Lando for many gens have given stall issues. Thing is though lets talk about pressure/set up opportunities. Lando tries sdding on chansey gets toxiced has to then play 50/50 game the fun protect/unaware games. Lando tries sdding on a toxapex risks getting scald burn im sure your teammate bkc can tell you how great on a move it is. Lando tries sdding on sableye can get wisped or foul played very easily. Lando tries sdding on clefable its generally just wasting alot of wishes vs clef praying for a crit (252+ Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 171-202 (43.4 - 51.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery but we all will just luck it. Point is you make it easier then it sounds to break stall with lando hell you can't even set up with lando on duggy cause of toxic worry. Legitimately the only safe mon lando can set up on is skarm because generally they lack whirlwind recently.
Now, garchomp the only win it got over stall in high level play was thx to a toxic miss..could have went very differently if it hit. I personally don't even think chomp is even good in this meta so I don't wanna give a bias view but anyway most of the things I said about lando implies to chomp as well.
We've got Tapu Bulu. SD Z Fight is a bitch to face for stall but a good player can deal with it by doing some smart switching with Skarmory and Clefable to make it run out of Grassy Terrain. Add Leech Seed to that (not even a bad move) and Stall is now 6-0d.
Bulu is a very nice stall breaker but I've learned its not reliable shoutout leftiez (set). Let's keep it to the standard sets though still is the fact dugtrio can come toxic you and then the rest of the team can wear you down so stall isn't 6-0d and dugtrio is a factor in why.
Magma Heatran gets revenged by Dugtrio but it takes at least one mon down with it as long as you dont lead with it vs Sableye (Sab can outstall Magma Storm and switch out freely as it cant be trapped). Usually the mon dying is either Toxapex or Chansey, opening a hole to be taken advantage of. Its also great vs bulky offense teams so not a Shed Shell Lele level bandaid, which makes it great in my book.
Stall generally doesn't need all 6 members to pull off a min and can generally sack off a mon trap the tran and proceed with a gameplan to win. You also have to hit your storms to pressure the stall without dug you easily run plume taunt for a nice impact or hell even still magma storm and not get trapped after you kill something but seems you'd rather work harder. Shed Shell lele can easily run through bulky teams even with shed shell (replay) you can use that as reference.
Mega Gyarados 6-0s Stall without a single issue. I shouldnt have to explain how.
Issue with this is this mon is bad in general. I shouldn't have to explain why. Especially just water crunch coverage, sad.
If you are smart and dont let Tapu Fini get knocked off by the Sableye, then it is a BITCH to face with stall. It wont win the game by itself but it will require some heavy outplaying by the opponent as Toxapex alone cant deal with it if it has lefties up (to nullify burn damage in case of a Scald burn, this is why you dont let it get knocked off).
Huh, tapu fini is generally peoples counter/switch in to sableye so usually to avoid another one of their mons being cripple you would go to your main counter its hard to avoid this mon being knocked off. If you want to let everything get burned and worn down and force sab to recover so fini can get in safely go ahead. Have fini as your last mon standing and hope it doesn't get knocked off to complete your reverse 6-0 with it right?
Latios is a bitch to face in a tourney setting because you cant know its set. If you go to Sableye predicting a Scarf Trick and it ends up being Soul Dew or Specs, you just lost your Sableye and possibly the game. It offers trick too so thats nice.
This mon is pretty bad in this current meta but not going to dispute the things said just lati is generally poor vs other match ups.
LO Tornadus Therian keeps the stall player dancing around as it cant afford to let its Chansey eat a Knock Off, but everything else is 2HKOd by LO Hurricane or a Heat Wave in the case of Skarmory. Not trapped by Dugtrio and can spam U-Turn to regain momentum. Stall has to try to Toxic it with Chansey but again, a Knock Off could be huge trouble.
Same as lati just draco hits more then cane.
Not as common, but SD Breloom with Spore can put a lot of pressure on Stall. Something is going to go to sleep 100%, cant be revenge killed by Dugtrio (Stall cant afford to run Aerial Ace), and even Clefable gets 2hkod by Bullet Seed (if LO it 2HKOs with 3 hits, if no LO then it needs 4 hits).
I am genuinely confused you name all these low usage and generally do poor vs other match ups/outclassed by other mons. You miss the best stall breaker togekiss. #SHEDSHELLTOGETHROWBACK
heres more than just single mons. There are also team structures that can dismantle Stall and are very hip right now. 1) Knock Off Landorus + Magnezone teams completely dumpster Stall, as the first mon youll bring into Landorus is always going to be Skarmory. 2) Nifty Tapu Koko + Mega Metagross can beatStall, as Thunderpunch is 2HKOing Skarm, one mispredict on the Metagross switch and your Skarm is dead and you lose the game. 3)Dugtrio itself, the Pokemon that supposedly makes Stall broken, completely destroys Stall as it takes down one mon you want gone (be it Chansey or Toxapex) for something else to take over. 4) Greninja + most stuff put a lot of Pressure on stall due to its ability to set up Spikes as it threatens a 2HKO on Sableye and Skarmory should they switch in (this also means Dugtrio cant switch in directly on a Hoopa or Tyranitar, for example). 5) Leech Seed Serperior + overwhelming Clefable is a win for you. This is even easier on tournaments where you can use surefire lures such as Acid Downpour Weavile (saw this shit work on ladder once). Or even better just run Zard X as the only answer stall has for that mon is to bring Clefable in and force it to Mega Evolve so Dugtrio can trap it. 6) Trick Room teams in general can dong stall team as it usually has Marowak + Bulu. Sometimes even Healing Wish support for Wak so RIP stall. 7) Hyper Offensive cores, such as the ones found on Sticky Web teams (of shit like Lele + Kartana) run through Stall. Dugtrio has to die to stop one of them, and then the other runs through the enemy team. Say it sacs itself so Lele doesnt straight up win, Kartana uses SD and sweeps the rest of the team clean as Dugtrio cant Reversal revenge it. 8) Dugtrio stall straight up loses to opposing Pressure Stall (ie with Zapdos or Suicune or whatever people like to use), they just get PP stalled faster and lose. 9) TheThorn brought a nice offensive core of Weavile + Magnezone in SPL, same principle as Landorus with Knock Off + Magnezone, just less common. 10) Mold Breaker Excadrill is a bitch because it gets SR up always. If its defensive its gonna break Dugtrio's sash by virtue of surviving EQ if it tries to trap it to stop the SR spam and Defog later. So basically Excadrill + Sweeper = Stall is annoyed badly. 11) A personal favorite was someone using Future Sight Slowking on ladder. Caught me completely by surprise and due to the extra added damage every 2 turns it broke my stall team pretty easily. 12) Magearna is really annoying for Stall because it can spam Volt Switch and give a ton of Momentum to the user, and if you guess wrong once and it decides to attack hard then, you lose a mon. Best bet is to catch it on a Volt Switch with Dugtrio and thats risky as all hell. Magearna + Dugtrio makes for a very fun offensive core. 13) Baton Pass is dumb as all hell and needs to go but yeah, Baton Pass 6-0s Stall straight up, no chance for the Stall user (Clef can ignore boosts but it wont ignore a 1000000 base power Stored Power). 14) Anti busted out his Mismagius team in SPL and the Mismagius set, coupled with its overall team structure, means Stall has a very rough time. A good example of solid and creative teambuilding that doesnt need a bandaid like Shed Shell Lele to beat Stall.
I agree with all these points cept 6) TR rarely beats stall based of the main fact that hazards and protect generally gets the best of them. Sure they make the game close but its rare they win out. MattyBrollic could generally agree with me that tr tends to want to avoid stall.
With that out of the way, something that really frustrates me about this test is how the OP of this thread is worded. Im not saying this is a conspiracy to ban Dug or whatever (even though we know the stance of some Council members already) but its very annoying that its a clear appeal to emotion to the general playerbase. All the OP does is equate Dugtrio to Stall. And since most players fucking dislike Stall because its "boring to play against and noob strategy kill it", then the obvious move is to ban Dugtrio. Dugtrio is so much more than Stall. Dugtrio adds new dimensions to the game that can be very damn entertaining. Its fine if you dont enjoy the facets it brings, everyone has their own opinions. Just dont act like its stupid broken on these teams because we know its not. Duggy can support some teams very well, making for interesting combinations. It adds diversity, it helps keep some things in check. Everyone agrees it is not broken in teams that arent Stall, and why is that?...
Dugtrio is definitely much more than stall we saw in spl scarf dugtrio revenge alot of important mons and win games/help its other 5 teammates. Scarf duggy with its great speed could even afford to run adamant to easily revenge alot more mons. There are certain arch types that depend on scarf duggy to complete the team even eject button into scarf duggy(replay). They depend on trapping certain threats to their team with duggys help. That's another thing "band-aid" lele helps with generally those teams depend on dugtrio to weaken/remove the lele when it is unable to the band-aid opens a gap to make the opposing team bleed.
Lets go back to Dugtrio. Heist put it best in a talk I had with him. You people want to get rid of the ONE thing that makes stall proactive. Dugtrio makes stall have an offensive out. Its Stall's way to actually do damage. Without it Stall is left as a passive bland dragfest that literally relies on passive chip to kill shit. Dugtrio is a good addition to stall. It adds diversity, a new out and more ways to play Stall that arent what I previously mentioned. This is good for the game, not bad.
I agree there are many aspects to stall that make it broken but the council had to bring one aspect to the table to suspect. All the mons on stall aren't broken and some can only fit on stall teams. Sableye is the only one some would say is the reason stall is broken but the mon itself is no longer broken even if you thought it was broken last gen. So, dugtrio who can work well on stall,balance,bo was the mon that had to and needed to be suspected.Trapping in general has always been stupid and at times takes the competitiveness of this game away but there are alot of elements that makes this game noncompetitive. Even blunder thinks pursuit trapping is broken, I personally think the move is fine but just adding for sake of argument.
Anyway, you ramble on some more but ill get to my final point. Yes, dugtrio isn't the only issue with stall but it is one huge aspect. I actually heading into this suspect went in with the mindset dug doesn't deserve suspect to give a fair view and after playing a nice amount of games and seeing how un challenging stall and certain arch types were cause of dugtrio was certainly amazing. There has been so many games that I'd lose cause of duggy its just a mon you can't outplay and times. I like this metagame without and I urge people to vote ban on this pokemon. I think reys post is decent I think it misses out of aspects.
Dugtrio has had great usage in spl and on ladder which alot of tour players forget that ladder matters as well theres alot of people who aren't into tour play or aren't good enough to be in tour play that rely on the ladder to get better and theres alot of teams u face on ladder and so many different stalls while in spl play only one we had to consider is the sab toxapex dugtrio archtype.
Dugtrio is a mon that is quite effective on offenses as well. It is kinda like how goth would pick off certain mons for the team. Dugtrio being able to pick off mons like mega metagross which you think is broken is very nice. It helps even bad mons like comfey work (replay)! Let's just remove this cancer to team building and playing.
Yoshi
IT'S FINK DUMBASS
I like this post other than the burn part because the damage is actually more of the reason on why it was used. It's obviously still really good though, but the problem is it doesn't negate leftovers anymore, which was a big thing before. Will'o'Wisp + Knock Off was really cool, but now it's not as effective if that makes any sort of sense.
Bravo reyscarface for an excellent post. What I got from it was (a) people think Stall is an extremely easy brainless playstyle when it's not, (b) just because people find Stall frustrating to play against, they focus on elements of it being neutered in suspect tests rather than packing counter-plays like you would for any other style, (c) plenty of stuff does actually threaten the current Stall blend, if people bothered to try, (d) there's plenty of other arguably more concerning threats out there (Greninja, Metagross and possibly Sab for Stall itself) that would have made for a more worthy suspect, but even in their cases the meta still needs time to breathe and settle as suspects this early is a little premature, (e) that people think the constraints that Dugtrio places on team-building and switching are different to other strong threats, when really it's pretty similar but because it's very overt as it's enforced by an ability rather than subliminal like when people handle any other threat players have a disproportionate view of its effect and (f) people are under the preconception that making Stall more toothless will somehow improve the meta, when really it just looks set to allow more strongly offensive threats to run unchecked amok.
I have to say, I like all the points and the very articulate manner in which you made them. What annoys me is that a great number of these points were made earlier in the thread (many by myself, an offence player who believes players should try to overcome stall rather than ban elements that don't suit them to make their time easier, and I don't think removing such an element will help keep anything else in balance) and it takes an SPL player like you to get people to take them seriously, otherwise it's just shitposters "theorymonning" rather than presenting points of merit. I think it's one of the things that makes this place a little insufferable at times, as unless you are an SPL player or a mod no-one thinks anything you have to say is of remote value - in fact I'd wager to say many mods and SPL players on the opposite side of the argument believe it is their duty to educate the casual ladder-only playing majority as they believe people's arguments are coming from ignorance and stupidity. It's all a load of crap.
Honestly I lost interest when I mentioned Keldeo threatening some elements of stall in conjunction with other mons (I guess did originally call it a Stallbreaker, when really I should have called it a Stallweakener or some other crap that does require other anti-Stall support to work, but performs very well against probably 5/6 of a Stall team including Dugtrio with SubCM or even 6/6 if Quagsire is the designated Unaware mon) and people zeroed in on that one point rather than the ten or so other reasonable points I made in an effort to undermine all of them in one swoop. It gets boring.
I guess I don't really know where I'm headed with this post, so I'll just re-iterate thanks that an SPL player was on the no-ban side. After all, it's really only your opinions that matter ;p
I have to say, I like all the points and the very articulate manner in which you made them. What annoys me is that a great number of these points were made earlier in the thread (many by myself, an offence player who believes players should try to overcome stall rather than ban elements that don't suit them to make their time easier, and I don't think removing such an element will help keep anything else in balance) and it takes an SPL player like you to get people to take them seriously, otherwise it's just shitposters "theorymonning" rather than presenting points of merit. I think it's one of the things that makes this place a little insufferable at times, as unless you are an SPL player or a mod no-one thinks anything you have to say is of remote value - in fact I'd wager to say many mods and SPL players on the opposite side of the argument believe it is their duty to educate the casual ladder-only playing majority as they believe people's arguments are coming from ignorance and stupidity. It's all a load of crap.
Honestly I lost interest when I mentioned Keldeo threatening some elements of stall in conjunction with other mons (I guess did originally call it a Stallbreaker, when really I should have called it a Stallweakener or some other crap that does require other anti-Stall support to work, but performs very well against probably 5/6 of a Stall team including Dugtrio with SubCM or even 6/6 if Quagsire is the designated Unaware mon) and people zeroed in on that one point rather than the ten or so other reasonable points I made in an effort to undermine all of them in one swoop. It gets boring.
I guess I don't really know where I'm headed with this post, so I'll just re-iterate thanks that an SPL player was on the no-ban side. After all, it's really only your opinions that matter ;p
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I would argue that the opinions of everyone who obtained voting rights matters as they are ones who get ultimately decide dugtrios fate, most of whom arn't SPL players. Hence why a healthy discussion between everyone, not just SPL players should be encouraged. That being said I do very much agree with reyscarface's most and feel it said all there was to be said about the suspect
I'm sure almost everyone would agree at the end of a suspect test, but early on in the thread there's no real knowing who would get the reqs, so that doesn't really change how condescendingly many people are treated on either side of the debate if they aren't an established member. I'm hoping, as Celticpride seems like a decent guy and a good forum leader, eventually this kind of bs will break down and we'll get a better standard people talking to one another around here.
A digression anyway, back to Dugtrio.
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Part of that has to start with the tier leaders/Council, though. I mean, if they don't even bother to post for something as big as a suspect, why should we expect other people to put effort into posting well?
I don't think duggy is really what puts stall over the top. Nothing on stall really seems to be individually broken, just the combination of multiple things. This seems like the type of suspect you have a year or so after the game comes out and the meta has settled a bit. I mean there are a bunch off random things you could do to tweak stall's effectiveness but to me this test is like the equivalent of suspecting recover in order to make mega sab and others without roost, slack off sofboiled reply on lesser recovery moves. I guess this just feels like we are trying to fine tune the meta prematurely.
When I saw the Dugtrio thread there was a big question mark in my head, suspecting Dugtrio made little sense for me.
Rey already explained the situation in-depth, so I won't go into detail. I just want to stress that I also believe this suspect was rushed, it is not the time to suspect Dugtrio yet.
If we deal with other centralizing forces first, Metagross, Gren, Phero, then the removal of those will hopefully give us more freedom in fitting more options against stall on our teams.
These threats constrict teambuilding so much that it is very hard to fit anti stall measures on a team, due to the limited number of mons which are able
to take them on.
My course of action will be voting no ban, since this suspect also made clear that Metagross and other S-rank Pokemon's centralization are the reason why it's so hard to prepare for stall, so suspect and ban the constricting Pokemon first, then come back and take a look at stall and Dugtrio again, when there are more possibilities availible on a team to prepare for it.
Unless you deliberately ignore it and gamble with the fact that you won't face it, solid team should always have a way to deal with stall teams, and the current meta doesn't allow or limits it, thus ban the constricting Pokemon first and then see how the stall and Digtrio situation develops as the metagame evolves.
Rey already explained the situation in-depth, so I won't go into detail. I just want to stress that I also believe this suspect was rushed, it is not the time to suspect Dugtrio yet.
If we deal with other centralizing forces first, Metagross, Gren, Phero, then the removal of those will hopefully give us more freedom in fitting more options against stall on our teams.
These threats constrict teambuilding so much that it is very hard to fit anti stall measures on a team, due to the limited number of mons which are able
to take them on.
My course of action will be voting no ban, since this suspect also made clear that Metagross and other S-rank Pokemon's centralization are the reason why it's so hard to prepare for stall, so suspect and ban the constricting Pokemon first, then come back and take a look at stall and Dugtrio again, when there are more possibilities availible on a team to prepare for it.
Unless you deliberately ignore it and gamble with the fact that you won't face it, solid team should always have a way to deal with stall teams, and the current meta doesn't allow or limits it, thus ban the constricting Pokemon first and then see how the stall and Digtrio situation develops as the metagame evolves.
So I managed to get last minute reqs and only skimmed through this thread so apologies if I repeat anything.
Reyscarface already said pretty much everything there is to say, but after getting reqs and using Dugtrio this much after I posted the Screech set back in June during ORAS, I want to say at least something.
To me it seems like the playerbase is just not happy with the current state of the OU metagame, neither am I to be honest, which is one of the reasons the most annoying thing in the current meta, stall and Dugtrio, got picked for this suspect. I agree that stall is really good right now and that Dugtrio is significantly limiting counterplay against stall but it just comes off as a scapegoat to nerf a playstyle most people don’t like facing.
However, as many already pointed out there is still plenty of counterplay against stall left and while Dugtrio may be limiting it, it’s not nearly as limiting as the current top threats of the metagame. They are the reason it’s so difficult to fit ways of beating stall on teams because running them leaves you more vulnerable to those offensive powerhouses.
I also agree with the notion that if anything on stall is a problem, it’s Mega Sableye, because this thing is the reason why Dugtrio is so good on stall right now. For one because of the hazard control it provides along with Skarm (or Zapdos I guess) but mainly because how it influences other players to approach taking countermeasures against stall in the teambuilder. MSab’s presence deters Taunt and hazards, easily two of stall biggest problems otherwise, which in turn causes players to use specific breakers to beat stall. Most of these breakers lack the speed/bulk due to their high power, which makes them perfect targets for Dugtrio.
This is also why I don’t agree with Dugtrio being uncompetitive, it hasn’t been uncompetitive for 4 generations because due to its flaws Dugtrio is still severely limited in what it can trap and kill, as are Magnezone and Pursuit users to a lesser extent. It’s not even the attack buff Dugtrio got this generation, the current metagame trends, many of them caused by mons that are actually broken, are the reason Dugtrio appears to be pushed over the edge right now.
I’ll definitely be voting No Ban as well.
Reyscarface already said pretty much everything there is to say, but after getting reqs and using Dugtrio this much after I posted the Screech set back in June during ORAS, I want to say at least something.
To me it seems like the playerbase is just not happy with the current state of the OU metagame, neither am I to be honest, which is one of the reasons the most annoying thing in the current meta, stall and Dugtrio, got picked for this suspect. I agree that stall is really good right now and that Dugtrio is significantly limiting counterplay against stall but it just comes off as a scapegoat to nerf a playstyle most people don’t like facing.
However, as many already pointed out there is still plenty of counterplay against stall left and while Dugtrio may be limiting it, it’s not nearly as limiting as the current top threats of the metagame. They are the reason it’s so difficult to fit ways of beating stall on teams because running them leaves you more vulnerable to those offensive powerhouses.
I also agree with the notion that if anything on stall is a problem, it’s Mega Sableye, because this thing is the reason why Dugtrio is so good on stall right now. For one because of the hazard control it provides along with Skarm (or Zapdos I guess) but mainly because how it influences other players to approach taking countermeasures against stall in the teambuilder. MSab’s presence deters Taunt and hazards, easily two of stall biggest problems otherwise, which in turn causes players to use specific breakers to beat stall. Most of these breakers lack the speed/bulk due to their high power, which makes them perfect targets for Dugtrio.
This is also why I don’t agree with Dugtrio being uncompetitive, it hasn’t been uncompetitive for 4 generations because due to its flaws Dugtrio is still severely limited in what it can trap and kill, as are Magnezone and Pursuit users to a lesser extent. It’s not even the attack buff Dugtrio got this generation, the current metagame trends, many of them caused by mons that are actually broken, are the reason Dugtrio appears to be pushed over the edge right now.
I’ll definitely be voting No Ban as well.
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Throughout the course of this suspect test I've played on the suspect ladder consistently on many different alts. I've also read every single post in this thread and came in completely unbiased. From my understanding, suspects are mostly a means of cultivating a metagame which is fun, diverse, and competitive. By fixing mistakes gamefreak makes, our community cultivates a space to for anyone to play pokemon competitively, at its peak. We can cultivate a thriving metagame, unlike some VGC tournaments I've seen, where the top 8 players in any given tournament can have vastly different teams with a myriad of threats with varying sets. This is competitive Pokemon at its peak to me. One where innovation plays a role just like understanding standard sets and the trends of the metagame.
This ladder, for lack of a more eloquent word, was AIDs. I fail to see how it was any better than OU with Dugtrio. It was practically identical, and to me, fixes nothing.
Pheromosa's many sets severely constricts teambuilding (switchins to QD are sparse, Fini comes to mind as a good one, which then gets bopped if you're looking at a physical Poison Jab set, or if it gets whittled). Which would be one thing on its own, but combine that with Metagross which seldom has switchins in-and-of-itself. It's amazing how many times I have to switch gross into gross and play speed tie/atk boost games. Would-be switchins find themselves playing precarious games with his undeniable coverage and abundance of sets (Skarmory comes to mind). Finding spots on your team to not autolose to these threats alone would be enough to call the metagame centralized if you weren't also worried about Greninja. Greninja suffers from Charizard-syndrome in that, prior to seeing it in action, team composition is your only clue to which set he's running. Guessing wrong can result in a loss of a mon or a severe loss of momentum (say you switch Fini in on Protean, thinking it's Ash, now you need to switch again while he's chipping away at your team cleanly). It can also result in spikes which cause major problems in a meta with so many grounded threats. Protean has, effectively one switchin (marginally more if it's running spikes instead of full coverage), and Ash has few himself. Fini is one of the few that comes to mind. It's interesting that Fini, a great defensive mon that, without reliable recovery, is easily chipped away is one of the very few switchins to many of these monsters. A few forced switchouts and it's easy to clean right through even a well-played and well-built team. It's utterly skilless. Then we have Landorus, who is a monster no matter what he's doing, but that Z-move double dance set throws so much more pressure on the teambuilding aspect. His multitude of sets easily allows him to bait or condition you while getting a free boost. Which is made easier by his undeniable offensive presence regardless. Throw all of these monsters into one tier, tell the community to build for them, and then expect them to also adequately counteract DuggyStall. It's a bit much to ask. And I'm not here to say that Duggy isn't broken (though I don't like the term 'uncompetitive' when applied to him), perhaps he is. But what I am saying is the strain on teambuilding is a result of completely different 'mons, which prevent you from adequately building diverse teams that can counter all relevant threats, Duggy/Stall included.
Duggy should, perhaps, be resuspected (assuming it doesn't get banned), but not until the real problem children of OU, which are running amok, are absent and our meta can stabilize*. I seriously question how problematic Stall/Duggystall will be once you're given the freedom to adequately build around everything while constructing your own strategy/win conditions.
Do not ban the moles
** I don't necessarily believe that all 4 S tier mons need to go, but I believe that the order of suspects is equally, if not more important than who gets suspected and making Duggy the 2nd suspect test is a clear example of suspecting out of order. I'll leave the community to decide if the S tier monsters need to go, but they needed to be looked at more closely (suspected) before Duggy.
This ladder, for lack of a more eloquent word, was AIDs. I fail to see how it was any better than OU with Dugtrio. It was practically identical, and to me, fixes nothing.
Pheromosa's many sets severely constricts teambuilding (switchins to QD are sparse, Fini comes to mind as a good one, which then gets bopped if you're looking at a physical Poison Jab set, or if it gets whittled). Which would be one thing on its own, but combine that with Metagross which seldom has switchins in-and-of-itself. It's amazing how many times I have to switch gross into gross and play speed tie/atk boost games. Would-be switchins find themselves playing precarious games with his undeniable coverage and abundance of sets (Skarmory comes to mind). Finding spots on your team to not autolose to these threats alone would be enough to call the metagame centralized if you weren't also worried about Greninja. Greninja suffers from Charizard-syndrome in that, prior to seeing it in action, team composition is your only clue to which set he's running. Guessing wrong can result in a loss of a mon or a severe loss of momentum (say you switch Fini in on Protean, thinking it's Ash, now you need to switch again while he's chipping away at your team cleanly). It can also result in spikes which cause major problems in a meta with so many grounded threats. Protean has, effectively one switchin (marginally more if it's running spikes instead of full coverage), and Ash has few himself. Fini is one of the few that comes to mind. It's interesting that Fini, a great defensive mon that, without reliable recovery, is easily chipped away is one of the very few switchins to many of these monsters. A few forced switchouts and it's easy to clean right through even a well-played and well-built team. It's utterly skilless. Then we have Landorus, who is a monster no matter what he's doing, but that Z-move double dance set throws so much more pressure on the teambuilding aspect. His multitude of sets easily allows him to bait or condition you while getting a free boost. Which is made easier by his undeniable offensive presence regardless. Throw all of these monsters into one tier, tell the community to build for them, and then expect them to also adequately counteract DuggyStall. It's a bit much to ask. And I'm not here to say that Duggy isn't broken (though I don't like the term 'uncompetitive' when applied to him), perhaps he is. But what I am saying is the strain on teambuilding is a result of completely different 'mons, which prevent you from adequately building diverse teams that can counter all relevant threats, Duggy/Stall included.
Duggy should, perhaps, be resuspected (assuming it doesn't get banned), but not until the real problem children of OU, which are running amok, are absent and our meta can stabilize*. I seriously question how problematic Stall/Duggystall will be once you're given the freedom to adequately build around everything while constructing your own strategy/win conditions.
Do not ban the moles
** I don't necessarily believe that all 4 S tier mons need to go, but I believe that the order of suspects is equally, if not more important than who gets suspected and making Duggy the 2nd suspect test is a clear example of suspecting out of order. I'll leave the community to decide if the S tier monsters need to go, but they needed to be looked at more closely (suspected) before Duggy.
hecatomb
Banned deucer.
So if Dug is not going to be banned is there any good reason to keep shadow tag gothitelle banned? I know this is off topic, but seeing how the greninja, pheromosa, can completely destroy it, not to mention anything with u-turn and volt switch can just bring in other mon just to counter it. It just seems hypocritical to let arena trap in and ban shadow tag.
They're just completely different mons. Gothitelle was a lot better. More versatile, Usable defenses and an actual movepool (so it doesn't have to rely on sash and Reversal), as well as bullshit Trickscarf shenanigans, and the ability to trap more (all) mons.
Edit: also a boosting move. That makes a big difference.
Edit: also a boosting move. That makes a big difference.
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dwarfstar
mindless philosopher
While those mons are trapped in that they can't switch out, context matters here, and it's consistently been the case that when people refer to trapping in this thread, they're talking about being able to prevent the switch AND either KO the target or cripple it to the point where it can't do its job effectively. That interpretation significantly cuts into the number of things that Dugtrio can successfully "trap" relative to Gothitelle, which could run a variety of different sets tailored to crippling or eliminating a massive number of offensive and defensive threats.
Not saying goth isn't better cause it objectively is, but this is rather reductive. The argument that dug traps a small portion of the meta is 100% bs and i think everyone knows it. Running a variety of sets tailored to getting certain threats is not unique to goth, Dugtrio has a number of viable sets depending on what you need removed.
Tbh I'm closer to being on the fence about this suspect than i was at the start, but really in relation to goth, it just has to be made clear it's not like dugtrio is 10% of what goth was in terms of manipulative power, it's far closer to say, 70-80%. If you don't believe this, you have to take into consideration the whole meta and the mons service within it. In our current meta that may be even more matchup-based than OrAs, dugtrio happens to remove a significant portion of crucial mons that can otherwise assist in holding the line on most every team.
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